lemforum, D replay collection

[Simon]

I maintain replays for the community pack, lemforum/, on github:

Download replays as zip archive or
git clone https://github.com/SimonN/lemforum-replays

These replays won't help you in C++ Lix. geoo has 800 C++ Lix replays with 100 % coverage.

-- Simon

[Simon]

By 2016-08-01, the entire pack is 100 % covered.

-- Simon

[Nepster]

Here are some replays for Hopeless levels (including three of Proxima's levels, that were already present in my replay folder).

Your list contains a few levels that are currently unsolvable (at least in an intended way):
Eye of the Needle: This version needs VSI.
Feel the Pressure: This version needs VSI.
Oh No, Not Again!: This level needs different starting SI=4.
We're In This One Together: The level idea requires VSI or alternatively lots of runners.

A few more comments on some levels:
Division of Labor: It had a pretty harsh time limit to remove several backroutes. Some backroutes might no longer work for other reasons, though.
Stuff in the Way: The missing time limit allows for backroutes. Attached is one of them.
The Mon0lith: The missing time limit makes this level easier.
Think Inside the Box: The number of lix should be reduced a lot here in order to remove the waiting at the end.
Tinker Tailor Soldier Lix: The number of lix should be reduced here in order to remove the waiting at the end.

[Simon]

Thanks! Updated the list.

Proxima will have a better view than I have over levels that need work.

-- Simon

[Proxima]

Behind Bars: SI 52 -> 55 to allow intended solution to work. Replay and level attached. (There are alternative solutions that work at SI 52.)

You only get one bash: Nepster has provided a backroute fix. Replay and level attached.

[Nepster]

Here a 100%-solution for Labyrinth of Despair. It is already recorded with a version that has 40 lix instead of 100 lix. Note that the replay depends on having exactly 40 lix and has to be modified slightly in case of other numbers of lix.

[Nepster]

I adapted Feel the Pressure to work with constant SI. Both solutions that were present in geoo's C++-replay collection work as well in this modified version, although one of them only with rather precise skill assignments.

[Simon]

Adaption of We're in this one together to fixed SI, and proof of solvability with Steve's intended solution. I believe the entrances don't allow backroutes. Skillset is the same as before.

-- Simon

[Nepster]

I had a look at Oh No, Not Again. This level has two main problems:
1) The intended solution does not work with constant SI 4.
2) The time limit is necessary to remove a very nasty backroute (see attachment).

Here are the best solutions I could come up with:
re 1) Leave SI 20, but have only 14 instead of 50 lix. The distance between the first and the last lix is then approximately the same as with 50 lix and SI 4. Moreover the intervals between the lix are now correct and the intended solution works.
re 2) This needed a very ugly hack, namely adding additional hatches that spawn a lot of lemmings which arrive at the earth level after approx 53 sec. This creates a time limit of roughly one minute to start creating the path to victory.

If anyone can think of a better way to enforce the intended solution, their suggestions are very welcome. I am not yet satisfied with the current version.

[ccexplore]

Help us with 100 % coverage!

I lack D Lix replays for the following 6 Hopeless levels. Please solve one of these levels in D Lix 0.6.x, and post the replay.

Does this imply the other 34 or so levels all have working D Lix replays?  Because I wasn't aware for example that anyone ever gave you one for "Won't Get Fooled Again" (I thought geoo's still relied on variable SI for example).

[Simon]

Because I wasn't aware for example that anyone ever gave you one for "Won't Get Fooled Again"

Yes, Akseli's replay from C++ Lix solves the D version. We have changed the save requirement from 93/100 -> 23/30, there aren't any other changes.

I haven't looked at the replay, and Proxima doesn't like spoiling either. Once we declare 100 % solvability, we will live with uncertainty for a while: The solving replays may be painful to execute, and we wouldn't know.

-- Simon

[ccexplore]

Ah ok, didn't realize he sent you his.  He had basically the intended solution or at least a tolerated version thereof.  I actually had tried to play my copy of his C++ replay in D-lix but it didn't seem to work for some reason, though it's possible it could be something stupid like the replay having been edited to point to a different file path (eg. to my own copy of the level file that I may edit to try things out, say), I'll check again later.

=========

For "Oh No, Not Again", for the backroute made possible by not having a time limit, can it potentially be eliminated more directly by changes that would force the miner to not be able to start mining around that area (eg. he'd end up having to navigate around a hazard after he's done, say), even if at the expense of making it more obvious what probably doesn't work?  A time-limit gadget (for lack of a better term) like what you proposed could work, but especially in a community-levelset context, you may want to check with Simon over why such a gadget would really be so much more acceptable compared to an actual time limit, the thing that was removed.

There's always the option to scrap the level, after all, that is bound to happen for a few levels once the decision was made to remove time limit support in D-Lix, and I seem to remember we aren't exactly starved for replacements.  Alternatively there's also the option (though probably not one many would be happy with) to demote the level to an earlier ranking and allow some of the backroutes to exist.

[Nepster]

The problem with the backroute is, that one can start the miner much later and it still works (see attached replay). So the point where the miner finally breaks through the earth wall can be pretty much the same as for the intended solution. Hence we would have to add hazards within a very thin layer at the top of the earth platform (at least at some places). I don't like this either.

Another idea I had was... (small spoilers) (click to show/hide)

...to enforce that the crowd may only turn once at the left edge of the earth platform. But I didn't find a good way to do so. Placing a small sawblade there and giving 12 jumpers or walkers to turn the crowd introduced backroutes. Other ways required bashers/miners/diggers/builders/platformers which usually introduce backroutes as well, unless one is extremely careful (which I wasn't in the versions I tried myself).

A time-limit gadget (for lack of a better term) like what you proposed could work, but especially in a community-levelset context, you may want to check with Simon over why such a gadget would really be so much more acceptable compared to an actual time limit, the thing that was removed.

Yes, I feel the same and would prefer to do without the time-limit gadget.

Alternatively there's also the option (though probably not one many would be happy with) to demote the level to an earlier ranking and allow some of the backroutes to exist.

Ignoring my first tries at the level when I was still very inexperienced (and using CustLemm), then finding the backroute took me approx. 30 minutes. Finding the intended solution on the other hand took me another few months. So I would very much prefer to keep the backroute impossible.

[Simon]

I culled VSI and time limits to make the overall game more satisfying. According to my experience, geoo's, and Flopsy's, the game has become better. On the flipside, I demand more constraints from level designers.

Oh no not again obviously doesn't fit unmodified. You can try to salvage it because you deem it a great level, which can't be diminished much by the necessary hacks.

But you shouldn't salvage it only because it's already in the pack. We included it because it worked in C++ Lix with the time limit. Try to make the pack as good as possible, don't merely try to convert every level from the C++ pack, included for C++-Lix-reasons, to D Lix. It's a different game.

-- Simon

[Proxima]

There's always the option to scrap the level, after all, that is bound to happen for a few levels once the decision was made to remove time limit support in D-Lix, and I seem to remember we aren't exactly starved for replacements.

I don't entirely agree. We have a lot of excluded levels, but most of them were cut for not being good enough quality for the pack; a few others for being essentially dependent on VSI or time limits, or being too similar to included levels. In particular, there really aren't many available replacements for Hopeless levels, unless we resort to remaking additional Cheapo / NeoLemmix levels.

One that I'm wondering about is Top Gear (attached). I haven't solved this level (or indeed spent much time looking at it at all) so I don't know whether there would be any problems with using it as a replacement. Does anyone feel like making a D Lix replay for it just in case?