Author Topic: Lemmings Level Jam - #1  (Read 23890 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2606
  • relax.
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings Level Jam - #1 - LET THE JAMMING BEGIN
« Reply #75 on: November 23, 2013, 04:01:45 AM »
For Luis; here is an apparent backroute to Miracle Freezly.

I sort of take back what I said about my own level, since some have commented (right here not via PM) they liked it. Maybe I will try to enforce the original solution; if I get the time before the deadline that is. Don't let this effect your vote however.
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2606
  • relax.
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings Level Jam - #1 - LET THE JAMMING BEGIN
« Reply #76 on: November 24, 2013, 11:08:42 PM »
I forgot to add something:

Rate every level on it's difficulty! Use the same 1-10 scale. [1 is easy, 10 is difficult]
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline Clam

  • Posts: 2187
  • Smiley: :8():
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings Level Jam - #1 - LET THE JAMMING BEGIN
« Reply #77 on: November 26, 2013, 08:22:29 AM »
Voted. I didn't vote for my own level, did some people really do that, too? I'm not a fan of that idea. :b

I second "don't vote for your own level" but at this stage I'll probably just run with it. (Actually now I'm more confused - was this under the "vote for the best levels" scheme, or rating from 1-10  ???)

I do plan to vote still! (haven't re-played the levels yet :\)

Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2606
  • relax.
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings Level Jam - #1 - LET THE JAMMING BEGIN
« Reply #78 on: November 26, 2013, 09:08:01 PM »
Voted. I didn't vote for my own level, did some people really do that, too? I'm not a fan of that idea. :b

I second "don't vote for your own level" but at this stage I'll probably just run with it. (Actually now I'm more confused - was this under the "vote for the best levels" scheme, or rating from 1-10  ???)

I do plan to vote still! (haven't re-played the levels yet :\)

Vote on the 1-10 scale. I was just mentioning ideas but everybody likes 1-10 scale best. Also I believe I removed the "you may vote for your own level" in my post above". That was a typo actually

I've re-played some of the levels and haven't had much of any progress. I don't think I will be fixing my own level. I really don't know how to and don't have the time either...
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline Clam

  • Posts: 2187
  • Smiley: :8():
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings Level Jam - #1 - LET THE JAMMING BEGIN
« Reply #79 on: November 27, 2013, 05:07:06 AM »
Here's my Switchback Symmetry v4 solution. Still didn't find other solution than this glitchy one. :-\

Nice one, I haven't seen the glitch used like that before :thumbsup:

(This sort of thing is why I mainly design levels in Lix now... :P)

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 12119
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: Lemmings Level Jam - #1 - LET THE JAMMING BEGIN
« Reply #80 on: November 27, 2013, 06:18:43 AM »
I was going to try using Lix for making LPII, but my PC very much seems to not like it. It entirely freezes from startup and won't do anything - if I switch between fullscreen and windowed (in either direction), it'll respond for a second or two before it goes back to being non-responsive. So, stuck with Lemmix (it was pretty much either that or a custom-built engine, I am not a fan of Lemmini - it feels too clunky, plus I like the frame-by-frame options in Lemmix and having source code access and being able to make an all-in-one EXE is a huge bonus).
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2606
  • relax.
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings Level Jam - #1 - RESULTS
« Reply #81 on: November 28, 2013, 10:28:54 PM »
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lemmings Forum Level Jam - the results are in!!!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This contest is officially over! It has ended after being open for a whopping eight months. 5 people voted and the results are in!
Votes were cast on originality, fun, appearance, and difficulty. The results here are the averages of all votes.

Thank you to everybody who participated!!! Please join us in the next level jam to start in a few weeks!

If you would like to check my work or see the votes; ask me and I'll upload the spreadsheet. If you missed this voting phase you may send me a PM with votes or simply post comments. I will update this post.

-oops, I made a big mistake in the scoring; like Akseli pointed out I added up the difficulties in by mistake. the difficulties aren't factored into the score; they are just there for reference.

 now fixed  :D

~~~~~

Clam Spammer - Switchback Symmetry
originality: 8.25
fun: 7
appearance: 6.5
difficulty: 7.33
total: 21.75

Akseli - Crysilis
originality: 8
fun: 5.3
appearance: 9.3
difficulty: 9.67
total: 22.6

minimac - Electric Factory
originality: 6
fun: 6
appearance: 6
difficulty: 6
total: 18

geoo - Lemming Sound System
originality: 8
fun: 4
appearance: 7
difficulty: 9.5
total: 19

Insane Steve - Mazeochism
originality: 7.2
fun: 7.24
appearance: 7.7
difficulty: 7.25
total: 22.14

mobius - pillars of creation
originality: 7.13
fun: 8
appearance: 6.5
difficulty: 6
total: 21.63

Luis - Miracle Freezly
originality: 6
fun: 6.6
appearance:  6.8
difficulty:  4.75
total: 19.4

Pieuw - Utopia
originality: 8.5
fun: 7.63
appearance: 10
difficulty: 8.33
total: 26.13

~~~~~

Utopia had the highest total votes, making Pieuw the winner! Congratulations!


As winner you receive:

-The Lemmings Forum badge of honor. Wear it with pride.
-A useless nugget! (you can sell it at at mart for 5000P)
...and a Lemming plush doll, handcrafted by ProbLem!

everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline Akseli

  • Global Moderator
  • Posts: 372
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings Level Jam - #1 - RESULTS
« Reply #82 on: November 29, 2013, 10:52:36 AM »
Hey hey HEY! You aren't supposed to add difficulty "points" to the total. The results are about the three original categories, now you seem to benefit difficult levels over the easy ones? Man, that definitely was not the purpose here! :P
EDIT: Now fixed.

Really nice to see some results after eight months. Though it would have been nicer if more people had voted. Hopefully those who are going to vote afterwards can be enough honest not to manipulate the results in a bad way. :P

I'll comment the levels after you've corrected the results. Consider also giving the total points precisely with two decimals. Though Pieuw's level (typoed 'Utpoia' by the way in the list again) still seems to be the winner even without paying attention to the difficulties. Also I'm of course interested to see the spreadsheet. : )

Offline Akseli

  • Global Moderator
  • Posts: 372
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings Level Jam - #1 - RESULTS
« Reply #83 on: November 29, 2013, 10:49:23 PM »
I wrote these comments on the levels before the results came out:

Crysilis - I didn't vote for my own level.

I was a bit surprised to see that when the theme was to design with the same tileset, Crystal, I was the only one who went with the bumpy terrain theme (Luis and minimac maybe a bit too, nice!). I said that this level is somewhat different than my earlier contest level, 'Feel the Pressure'. I designed Crysilis purely aiming for a level, that offers lots of leeway how it can be solved, but no solution is too easy compared to others. There’s this one main trick that everyone who solved my level used, so I’m happy to see that no one backrouted my level. : )
I recognized where the title Crysilis is from, at first I thought it's just one of those no-builder techniques levels like I've made two before, but skill distribution makes this a lot more interesting.
Oh no, now I think I know at least one level you’re referring (geooPk1 – More ‘No Builder Problems’), but that really didn’t come across my mind, and I haven’t managed to solve that level either, so I didn't know. :XD: I really don't want to create levels that use significantly similar methods etc. than has been used in other custom levels earlier, sorry!

Clam Spammer - Switchback Symmetry - My votes: 7 for originality, 6 for fun, 7 for appearance, 7 for difficulty

I know that Clam is so strongly established and appreciated level designer (definitely for me also) that criticism won’t hopefully hurt. :P
I don’t still know why RR is set as so it is, I don’t see its function here. Instead I got a bit annoyed when I tried to change the RR, I don’t know how it works but then some lemmings spawned randomly at RR99, and then again in extra long spaces between. This level also had a lot of those “wrong” object placements to make things look better, but yea I’d guess it’s not a bad thing. Also, I don’t like messy one way arrows that are there only for preventing backroutes (not for the puzzle itself), and in this case, they didn’t even prevent my backroute. :q Otherwise this level seems really interesting, and I still don’t have a slightest clue about the intended solution, it’s probably so impressive what could be expected for being a solution for Clam’s level.

geoo - Lemming Sound System - My votes: 9 for originality, 7 for fun, 7 for appearance, 9 for difficulty (estimation, I didn't solve this level)

Gronkling found “left-facing-entrance” trick already in his Lemmini levels, but this is the first time I see that used in a Lemmix level, it works nicely with the black Crystal tileset terrain. :b The level itself seems that it's obvious what you need to try, but I still don’t have a clue how a working solution could be reached. Definitely points for originality, the design theme and the skillset seem really unique. Yet again it seems that geoo manages to create a level with the fewest backroutes, congratulations! :b (And the fewest any solutions, too… :--D)

Insane Steve - Mazeochism - My votes: 8 for originality, 9 for fun, 8 for appearance, 6 for difficulty

This level won clearly the most fun level category for me! I enjoyed this level the most completely despite the fact that there’s many, many different ways to solve it, even in every released version. Even backroutes were fun to find, and the right feeling solution has various different types of obstacles to get through. I tend to appreciate massive levels as well, I don’t know exactly why but large levels are in some odd way attractive in my opinion especially if they’re designed with love. (Yeah, if you just throw randomly terrain to fill the whole level, then no thanks.) The crystal sticks look a bit bare in places, though.

Luis - Miracle Freezly - My votes: 6 for originality, 6 for fun, 7 for appearance, 3 for difficulty

I was really happy to see and play a level made by Luis, because I don’t know if he’s ever released any level for a wider audience to play, except 'Temple of Return' and the PSP levels. This level felt most like in the original games with the huge map and not-too-gimmicky solution. I found multiple solutions for this one as well, and I don’t know what is the intended one. What I didn’t like is the messy one way arrows, this problem was in few other jam levels also.

minimac - Electric Factory - My votes: 7 for originality, 7 for fun, 7 for appearance, 6 for difficulty

Rather nicely constructed level with its skillset and the layout using many various types of terrain. As in many other levels in this jam, it was nice to try to find the correct path to approach the solution, because it seemed that there could be few working paths. Messing around with the grid terrain was as funny as it always is. The loner metal block and trap placements were minor nitpicks of the visual appeal, as well the fact that the level was a bit off-centered to the left.

möbius - Pillars of Creation - My votes: 7 for originality, 7 for fun, 7 for appearance, 6 for difficulty

This level took me surprisingly long to solve compared to how simplistic the layout was, the crowd control puzzle was trickier than it seemed at first. I got confused that the wall at the right is four crystal squares wide and only three squares wide at the left, so that tricked me, for example. A somewhat pleasant layout, though that crystal rod decoration at the edges seem a bit plain. Edit: I just noticed that this level has 30 minutes as a time limit. :---D

Pieuw - Utopia - My votes: 9 for originality, 7 for fun, 10 for appearance, 8 for difficulty

Well… this. I was really amused after I played this level, because I was wondering how Pieuw will cope with us now that the jam is not about Lemmini levels where he’s used to (even though there's not much difference). Well, that issue was completely pointless, because this level is ridiculously outstanding. I opened this level in Lemmix and it was like two seconds and I knew that here is something particularly exquisite. The visual design with its theme is unseen in the whole level scene. Even with strict evaluation, this level gets the maximum points from me in the good-looking category, and was completely overwhelming in this level jam compared to all the other levels in this category.
The solution took surprisingly long for me to find out in this level also, and it involves a trick that’s quite rare in general. And I love how almost every part of the level is used. The visual appeal is so magnificent, that I’m not sure if the solution itself seemed more lame than it actually was! :P This and geoo's Lemming Sound System won my originality category with 9 points each, though in Utopia more originality points came from the original design rather than from the solution.


I compiled the votes for different categories (aargh I wish I knew how to use tables... :P):

Originality
Utopia - 8,50
Switchback Symmetry - 8,25
Crysilis/Lemming Sound System - 8,00
Mazeochism - 7,20
Pillars of Creation - 7,13
Electric Factory/Miracle Freezly - 6,00

Fun
Pillars of Creation - 8,00
Utopia - 7,63
Mazeochism - 7,24
Switchback Symmetry - 7,00
Miracle Freezly - 6,60
Crysilis - 5,30
Lemming Sound System - 4,00

Appearance
Utopia - 10,00
Crysilis - 9,30
Mazeochism - 7,70
Lemming Sound System - 7,00
Miracle Freezly - 6,80
Pillars of Creation/Switchback Symmetry - 6,50
Electric Factory - 6,00

Total points
Utopia - 26,13
Crysilis - 22,60
Mazeochism - 22,14
Switchback Symmetry - 21,75
Pillars of Creation - 21,63
Miracle Freezly - 19,40
Lemming Sound System - 19,00
Electric Factory - 18,00

Difficulty
Crysilis - 9,67
Lemming Sound System - 9,50
Utopia - 8,33
Switchback Symmetry - 7,33
Mazeochism - 7,25
Electric Factory/Pillars of Creation - 6,00
Miracle Freezly - 4,75

And now my comments after seeing the results:
Thank you everyone for this level jam! :thumbsup: I enjoyed this really much and like I said, I'm ready for the next contest if there are people who would also like to participate. :)

Congratulations Pieuw! :thumbsup: At least in my opinion the victory went to the right place, and now when I look at the total points list, it seems that everyone liked it a lot, and in the end your level ended up beating all the other levels quite clearly (with over 3,5 points!). :P Congratulations for winning 'The most original level' and 'The best looking level' categories as well (the latter one with, well, pretty impressive full points), and congratulations möbius for winning 'The most fun level' category! :D

I was so concentrating on voting and playing others levels so I almost forgot that my level was also here, getting votes and being judged by other people. :P Hahaha that you guys considered my level the hardest came as a big surprise for me :DDD I know that three people solved it! And yes, in my opinion it's completely reasonable to give a low fun score for a level that feels hard and/or frustrating, and it's completely reasonable that easy levels can be considered more fun than hard levels. :) Like I've many times wanted to highlight in these forums, the difficulty of a level has nothing to do with how 'good' is that level. That's one reason why I was really shocked that you originally tried to add the difficulty points to the final points, möbius. :P And I want to highlight again, that it brings a lot more diversity and is a lot more fun, if people design levels with different difficulties to these contests, you don't need to design as hard as possible level! I'd hope that wider audience will enjoy the contests more in this way also.

So, again big thanks for Clam Spammer, geoo, Insane Steve, Luis, minimac, möbius and Pieuw for taking part to this level jam! :thumbsup: I had a lot of fun, I hope that you had too.

Offline Pieuw

  • Posts: 117
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings Level Jam - #1 - LET THE JAMMING BEGIN
« Reply #84 on: November 30, 2013, 12:25:35 AM »
Bravo everyone, this level jam was lots of fun and I think each participant did great! I'm still impressed that in 2013 some people are still playing Lemmings and making fan content. I remember when I came across the Lemmix editor, it was like a dream come true (as a child I used to draw Lemmings levels on paper, with custom styles and everything) and it opened a whole new little world to me! And here I am, exchanging custom levels with people from all around the world. I don't know why but I just felt like saying all this. :P

I'm sorry about not sending replays, I'll try to do it next time if it helps to block backroutes.
I didn't solve Geoo's and Akseli's levels. Both are good looking but their solution is like a nightmare to me (I'm not saying this in a bad way, even if it sounds like it :evil:). I think it's mostly because I'm quite clumsy when I play with Lemmix, I'm just not used to it. But I plan to correct that. Watching the replays was fun though! :thumbsup:

I solved the other levels and liked all of them. I can't tell my votes since I only wrote them in my PM to Mobius and can't seem to find it anywhere (yes, silly silly me). I remember I gave the highest appearence score to Crysilis and the highest fun score to Mazeochism, but I have no idea about originality... I only gave bad fun scores to Crysilis and Lemmings Sound System, probably due to frustration :-[

About Utopia, well, I have to admit I was aiming for a decent appearance score: since I'm not comfortable with Lemmix and its mechanics I didn't try to make an original solution and I put all I got in the look of it. But wow, a perfect score! It's just amazing. Thanks everyone for naming this level winner of the jam!

Que l'esprit des Lemmings soit avec vous !


PS : Akseli, amazing feedback!

Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2606
  • relax.
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings Level Jam - #1 - LET THE JAMMING BEGIN
« Reply #85 on: November 30, 2013, 03:58:42 AM »
I hope I don't come off too strongly with my low votes in the "fun" category. It's mostly because I'm not a very patient player. All the levels however, I think had interesting solutions and were good levels.

Electric Factory:
I don't like levels with a bomber at the start like this (if that is the intended solution). Otherwise I liked the layout but solving was a pain because I kept coming very close but no cigar, after trying many different things. I also ran into a ton of frustration with Lemmix's lack of directional select. I found nothing wrong with the design visually.
I don't want to sound too negative on this level however because minimac is a great designer who has made many great levels in the past.

Lemming sound system:
I can see the general idea quickly after looking at it but I can also tell finding the solution exactly would be a real pain for me so I didn't even try for very long. I like the concept though, it's nice and probably wouldn't have taken that long... It's good to have a  different digger type level; instead of the same A.T like digger level. I liked the simplistic design as well. It reminds me a little of Land of Linebreaks because it's also small and simple yet for it's size and layout, it's surprisingly complicated. Order of operations fun.  :D (also reminds me of Clam's Floodgates open)

Crysilis:
looks beautiful; I love the night sky scene. As to the solution I don't even know where to begin so I don't know what to say really.  :XD: Either its really crazy or I'm missing something really really big.
I agree it's nice to see rocky terrain used here and in minimac's and Luis' when it wasn't used often.
Where does the title come from?

Mazeochism:
I like the concept and design a lot. I got frustrated quite about however as similar to minimac's level everything I try seems to end up not working. Knowing ISteve's levels however, the solution is probably not that complicated and I'm just missing something rather obvious.

Miracle Freezly:
A nice layout and I liked the solution even if it's somewhat simple (compared to the other contestants). This was the only level which I was able to solve.

Pillars of Creation:
I'm surprised at how high my level got rated. Also, incredibly surprised I won the most fun category  :o Shows how bad I am at judging my own work.  :D
Even though I thought this level wouldn't be real difficult, I liked the idea and thought it might be fun. Alas, it has a backroute which I'm not certain how difficult that is, with little ideas on how to remove it.
Another note: the name comes from the same name of a part of the Eagle Nebula, which is a famous picture.

Switchback Symmetry:
I like the design a lot and thought it was pretty original. It reminds me a little of Dodochacalo's the Spring.  It was too frustrated when playing but when I looked at the solution and was again reminded of how good Clam is at making well thought-out and deceptively simple levels. The solution is really not frustrating or precise at all! (no spoilers) More order of operations fun.  :D

I also don't understand the RR however, I thought I remember Clam saying somewhere why it was made that way. I don't see what it prevents. ?

Utopia:
this was of course the most original in appearance. Very unique and intricate look. Next time Dodochacalo has to join so Pieuw doesn't have such an advantage. :P

--------

I gave almost everybody a low score in "fun" and it's mostly because I really wasn't in a Lemmings-solving mood at all when I played them (back in April or recently) and frustrated easily. So, really I'm sorry for not being a real good sport for this but that's the way it happens. Hopefully someday I'll get in the mood and be able to play properly.

In the past, I think geoo, ccexplore and tseug were kings of creating the hardest levels ever. But Akseli, I believe you are becoming a true contender for that position  :D I consider all the levels of your first pack incredibly hard. I know it's hard to judge the difficulty of your own levels.

Also, what Pieuw said kind of reminded me: it's pretty cool for me to be joining this and being ranked in among all you guys who have been making and playing levels a lot longer than I have. ISteve10.dat being the very first levelpack I ever looked at (and could not solve a single level at first of course  :D ). Later I played and solved (some) of Pieuw's packs. So those were my first levels.  :D

Perhaps it's worth mentioning that we never saw Adam's level. Though I don't know if he actually made one or not.

thanks again for playing everyone! I'm sad that Crane, Pooty, namida, Proxima, Gronkling and Dodochacalo did not enter levels. All of which made excellent  levels in the past imo.
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 12119
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: Lemmings Level Jam - #1 - LET THE JAMMING BEGIN
« Reply #86 on: November 30, 2013, 04:10:55 AM »
With LPII almost out of the way, I might be interested in entering the next one...
By the way, I've never heard of Dodochacalo...
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline geoo

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 1426
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings Level Jam - #1
« Reply #87 on: November 30, 2013, 06:51:44 AM »
That was a great contest, thanks everyone for entering, and Adam and mobius for doing the organizational work. It's nice to see a lot of variety here, rather than just everyone aiming to make a level as hard a possible. Consequently I could also enjoy just playing through each of the level, with the hardest of them right at the borderline between leisurely play and the intense struggle to just solve them, rather than exceeding it, unlike in the last contest.
Congrats to Pieuw on his amazing level and winning the contest with it. One of ProbLem's sweet lemmings plushies sure sounds like a rewarding prize. :)

New contest sounds great, I mean it's been a while since everyone designed levels for this contest. I don't have the time to organize another contest, but it seems like mobius was already eager to find a theme for one, so why not go ahead and make it happen. If it takes place within December I'll try to participate, I definitely won't be around in January or February though.

Sorry I didn't get my votes for difficulty in in time, I read the note too late, after I had submitted my other votes.
Here's the table of my votes that I found in my 'Sent Items' folder, now with a column for difficulty added (not sure whether they'd stir up anything in the rankings).

author      title        funoriginalitylooksdifficulty
Clam SpammerSwitchback Symmetry 10 10  5  7
Akseli      Crysilis                 9.2  89.2  6
minimac     Electric Factory          7  4  33.5
Insane SteveMazeochism         9.2  67.55.5
mobius      pillars of creation        87.5  5  4
Luis        Miracle Freezly              6  4  5  3
Pieuw       Utopia                    9.5  8 105.5

Lemming Sound System. I think the idea I had in mind when designing my level is pretty clear, a puzzle where you have to figure out where and when to place your diggers to still allow other diggers to get where they need to dig. In some sense it was an experimental level. The advantage I had as designer over you solvers is that I could adjust the pillar sizes until my planned solution worked...while you couldn't. When I finally had all the sizes right for my solution to work I was happy do be done with it to at least have something to submit, while I was already fully aware that this level would be very frustrating to solve (if I had to rate it, it'd probably have given it a 2 in the fun category). It's like a butchered version of Clam's 'The Floodgates Open', as mobius already observed. Butchered, because in Clam's level you see the effect your skill placement has, making it possible to work out the solution in your head, while in my solution you have to use trial and error because you can't see how the timing works out ahead of time, I think. I was thinking of adding sound speakers to the level for the theme, so the bars look more clearly like one of those frequency/instrument volume diagrams, not sure why I didn't end up doing that.

Crysilis. I was familiar with all the tricks used here, having already explored no-builder techniques in one level of each of my packs ('Crossing Stairs' and 'More No Builder Problems' which are just, you get 10 of each and see what you can do without builders.) That's why I didn't find this level too hard. What distinguishes this level is that you have to conserve you skills, and thus it becomes a puzzle of which technique to apply in which place instead of just brute-forcing your way through, which I enjoyed. The theme and design are really beautiful, but not able to keep up with the stunning design of Pieuw's level, that's why I didn't give it a 10 there.

Utopia. The design is really unique, unlike any other level I've seen before, and unsurprisingly this seems to be the consensus among us. I based my originality vote mostly on the solution rather than the design though, that's why I didn't give it a higher score. It was fun to figure out the skill placements, and again, it's a level where you can work out the solution by just looking at it. The first solution I found used somewhat technical digger placement which I didn't like, but the intended solution handles this more elegantly, using all the exits too.

Miracle Freezly. Nice easy puzzle with a few possible solutions. The time limit requires you to be aware of when you do what so as not to run out of time, which annoyed me at first when I had to restart the level, but once you're aware of it it's not too bad, adding another thing to think about. Design felt a bit uninspired, especially with the repeated crystal everywhere.

Pillars of Creation. You've made a bunch of levels like this now where both the skill placement and the timing are key, and the design is based around a central idea, and often they don't use too many lemmings. I love those, you're developing a pretty unique style there that is quite unlike that of other level designers. Looking at my votes, I'm not sure why I didn't give it a higher fun score, maybe I thought it was over too quickly when I saw the key idea to the solution. The design looks a bit bland with the repeated pattern on the pillars, but apart from that it's a really solid level.

Electric Factory. Kinda straightforwards once you realize you can bashing at the bottom after the fence instead of through the pillar to save a basher, which took me a while till realized. Then a few details here and there, like trying to kill as few lemmings as possible at the beginning until you realize you can afford it, and working out some tidbits at the end where the lemmings tend to get stuck, added a bit to the difficulty for me, sometimes fun, sometimes a slight nuisance to work out. Design looks pretty messy though.

Mazeochism. It's one of those typical Insane Steve levels where you immediately know who made it, simple yet pretty, with some interesting shapes here and there (the 'pretty' part might be the only deviation from the standard). You got the usual puzzle where to place what, maybe a couple of variations in the solution, the usual amount of backroutes, and it's just as fun as usually. Only thing I didn't like was that one of the bombers needed somewhat precise timing, while the other bombers we really lenient.

Switchback Symmetry. A typical Clam level too. You see a pattern, try to do the obvious, then something is missing from the solution and you realize the devil is in the detail. And that's where the real fun begins. Repeatedly trying adjustments, coming up with new ideas, fixing things here and there, I just love this kind of level solving. When I finally found the solution it was pretty elegant, breaks the pattern to some extent, and seemed simpler than the time it took me to find it indicates. Only thing is that the arrows look a bit messy, and then the messiest ones even seems to have failed their job, considering Akseli's solution.

Offline Clam

  • Posts: 2187
  • Smiley: :8():
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings Level Jam - #1
« Reply #88 on: December 02, 2013, 06:25:26 AM »
Okay, firstly: I thought this was intended to be a filler before the next "real" contest (the topic post even says as much), so I'm amazed at all the lengthy write-ups that have suddenly shown up!

The right level won for sure, this is one of the more visually stunning designs I've seen. If it can be fixed to require use of all exits, that would really cap it off.



In response to comments about my level:

- The slow release rate has a purpose, maybe not 100% necessary but anyway: (spoiler just in case)
Quote
To give more time to bash through the platforms before the next lemming arrives. This means you can place your blockers further out.
Lemmix doesn't even handle these rates correctly when it comes to adjusting RR in game :P. Will try harder to avoid this next time :)

- I didn't realise the added one-way arrows failed until after the level submission was closed. Of course, the blockers cancel them! Even steel would fail, for the same reason. So I pretty much give up trying to fix that, but I could remake it in Lix with the steel pipes (which I would have by now if it weren't for the main one-way wall being so awkward to substitute).



Also, I removed the whole LET THE JAMMING BEGIN thing from the title so we don't keep getting that on replies. THE JAMMING IS OVER! :P

Offline Akseli

  • Global Moderator
  • Posts: 372
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings Level Jam - #1
« Reply #89 on: December 07, 2013, 12:43:13 PM »
Okay, firstly: I thought this was intended to be a filler before the next "real" contest (the topic post even says as much), so I'm amazed at all the lengthy write-ups that have suddenly shown up!
Yes, but because of the extension of this jam the "real" contest didn't commence back in April like we aimed. :b At least my urge to analyse a bit more detailed this jam increased due to this long break.

Crysilis:
...
Where does the title come from?

Aah geoo is the only one who knew immediately where it's from? :P http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8fDV9an_uU

Quote
In the past, I think geoo, ccexplore and tseug were kings of creating the hardest levels ever. But Akseli, I believe you are becoming a true contender for that position  :D I consider all the levels of your first pack incredibly hard. I know it's hard to judge the difficulty of your own levels.

Hey --  I'm still waiting for your solutions for my levels. ;)

By the way, I've never heard of Dodochacalo...

Although I consider him to be one of the most talented level designers of all time, it's not that surprising imo if one hasn't heard of him, because he keeps a very low profile and doesn't take part in the forums almost at all. Years ago in Lemmings Heaven forums the only posts he wrote were the announcements of his level packs and level contest levels (that's also where I spotted his levels). I've been in e-mail contact with him at times, I might try to coax him to join these contests again some time, but it strongly seems that he hasn't much time for Lemmings nowadays, but he's a really nice fellow nevertheless. :)

Crysilis.
...
The theme and design are really beautiful, but not able to keep up with the stunning design of Pieuw's level, that's why I didn't give it a 10 there.

I agree. :D When I was designing my level at first, it came across to my mind: "Could I get success in the good-looking category now?", but when I saw Utopia for the first time, I thought immediately "Game over". :P I also considered to lower my appearance points for all the other levels just to highlight how big really is the space between Utopia and the other levels in this category in my opinion.

The right level won for sure, this is one of the more visually stunning designs I've seen. If it can be fixed to require use of all exits, that would really cap it off.
Umm... did you backroute the latest version also? This is updated from v2, so it should be labeled as v3 I guess. :P


Möbius sent me the spreadsheet of the votes, I noticed immediately one mistake there, I gave 7 points for fun for Utopia, not 10 like möbius has marked to the sheet. :-\ I fixed it now. This lowers points of Utopia, but it still wins clearly the contest, so it's not a big deal.
I added geoo's difficulty points here. Now 'Lemming Sound System' gets the place of the hardest level. :P I might upload Level Jam pack to the database soon.
Now everyone can check if the votes are correctly in the sheet.
Interesting notes: geoo found all the levels easy compared to the other voters, Clam found all the levels hard, möbius didn't consider levels very fun like he said. :P

EDIT: The level pack is now uploaded in the database, click here.
I broke the average difficulty tie between Electric Factory and Pillars of Creation, Electric Factory had smaller votes for difficulty than Pillars of Creation from more people, möbius was the only one to give high difficulty points for that level.
Crysilis, Lemming Sound System and Pillars of Creation are the initial versions, Electric Factory is v2, Utopia and Miracle Freezly are v3, Mazeochism is v1negative and Switchback Symmetry is v4. Does anyone still want a different version of his level to the pack?