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#11
Contests / Re: Level Design Contest #33 -...
Last post by JawaJuice - Today at 12:24:00 AMNo worries, @kaywhyn - I enjoyed playing R2 very much! I think your level looks great with the Dune tileset. It also gave me the most pause for thought outside of Armani's level in this rank, despite the minimal skillset. A nicely designed puzzle.
I think possibly R2 plays to my strengths: I tend to do quite well with only 1 or 2 lemmings (aside from Dexter's Lock and Key haha). On the other hand, I typically don't do so well with very limited skillsets where if I can't see the solution, it feels like there aren't that many things to try. I'll move onto R3 and circle back to R1 later; with the exception of Armani's level, I did come fairly close to solving the others. Yours sounds like it needs a trick, which I may not be aware of - I've played the game long enough to know most standard tricks, but there are still some obscure ones I probably don't.
I think possibly R2 plays to my strengths: I tend to do quite well with only 1 or 2 lemmings (aside from Dexter's Lock and Key haha). On the other hand, I typically don't do so well with very limited skillsets where if I can't see the solution, it feels like there aren't that many things to try. I'll move onto R3 and circle back to R1 later; with the exception of Armani's level, I did come fairly close to solving the others. Yours sounds like it needs a trick, which I may not be aware of - I've played the game long enough to know most standard tricks, but there are still some obscure ones I probably don't.
#12
In Development / Re: Levels by Crane
Last post by Crane - Today at 12:23:44 AMIndeed that is a backroute, but I think in this case it's patchable. Updated the "Outside the box" pair. Hmmm, I'm starting to wonder if I should rename one version to "Inside the box" just for a change!
#13
Contests / Re: Level Design Contest #33 -...
Last post by kaywhyn - Today at 12:03:34 AM@JawaJuice
Your solution to my R2 is intended! Great job and thank you for playing!
Regarding my R1, yea, it's a pretty sneaky one, so I think I was right to make the decision to leave it as a final rank level of my upcoming Lemmings Memories pack for the time being 
Absolutely! These levels are open to anyone who wants to play them, not just the authors In the same way, there's no requirement that you must make levels to register to be a member of this site. There's plenty of members here who play levels/packs but don't create levels or vice versa, for example. I myself was once the former when I first signed up, but with some support and encouragement from Icho and several others to give the level making side a try, I decided to try my hand at level designing! 
I personally am not satisfied with some of my early Lemmings stuff, but I have improved slowly and steadily with my designs over the last several years according to several in this community I've also been told that my puzzles/solutions have always been excellent, it was the visuals that had plenty of room for improvement, but I think I'm pretty much there now for the most part even though I myself have never been an artist and still am not.
As mentioned in another topic, you can also play some of mine and other people's contest levels in Armani's LDC Compilation pack
There's generally no natural progression of increasing difficulty with the contest levels since these collection packs consists of levels from various authors. As you have already seen from trying these levels, some members tend to be associated with challenging levels. Both Icho and Armani here are a really good example. With the former, for example, yea, I generally have the same experiences with usually being a skill short anytime I play Icho's levels.
As for my stuff, I have the tendency to think my levels aren't that hard "relatively speaking" to the other levels in these contest collections. I still think this even though I've been given feedback plenty of times that my levels are challenging, which as you might guess surprises me to hear that. I have apparently made even Icho and Armani sweat hard with my levels, and the latter has even been kind enough to let me know within the past year that my more recent stuff is harder than his more recent levels
Suffice to say, I probably haven't quite reached the high end of difficulty Icho and Armani can make with their levels yet, though I suspect I'm not that far behind them in that area
Some rulesets are very restrictive and challenging to design around and meet criteria for and hence some rulesets will have levels that are significantly easier than others for the most part. Even then, it's still very much possible to be able to make a challenging level regardless of how restrictive the rulesets are if one knows how and does it with proper care
You can see the rulesets I came up with for LDC #33 in more detail here: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=7212.0. This link is also in the OP on page 1 in this topic
Your solution to my R2 is intended! Great job and thank you for playing!
Regarding my R1, yea, it's a pretty sneaky one, so I think I was right to make the decision to leave it as a final rank level of my upcoming Lemmings Memories pack for the time being Quote from: JawaJuice on November 25, 2025, 11:36:30 PMHi! Hopefully this topic is open to all, not just the authors? I thought I'd give these levels a playtest
Absolutely! These levels are open to anyone who wants to play them, not just the authors
In the same way, there's no requirement that you must make levels to register to be a member of this site. There's plenty of members here who play levels/packs but don't create levels or vice versa, for example. I myself was once the former when I first signed up, but with some support and encouragement from Icho and several others to give the level making side a try, I decided to try my hand at level designing! I personally am not satisfied with some of my early Lemmings stuff, but I have improved slowly and steadily with my designs over the last several years according to several in this community I've also been told that my puzzles/solutions have always been excellent, it was the visuals that had plenty of room for improvement, but I think I'm pretty much there now for the most part even though I myself have never been an artist and still am not.As mentioned in another topic, you can also play some of mine and other people's contest levels in Armani's LDC Compilation pack
QuoteBut then I tried R2, and it seemed significantly easier. I dunno whether that was intentional?
There's generally no natural progression of increasing difficulty with the contest levels since these collection packs consists of levels from various authors. As you have already seen from trying these levels, some members tend to be associated with challenging levels. Both Icho and Armani here are a really good example. With the former, for example, yea, I generally have the same experiences with usually being a skill short anytime I play Icho's levels.
As for my stuff, I have the tendency to think my levels aren't that hard "relatively speaking" to the other levels in these contest collections. I still think this even though I've been given feedback plenty of times that my levels are challenging, which as you might guess surprises me to hear that. I have apparently made even Icho and Armani sweat hard with my levels, and the latter has even been kind enough to let me know within the past year that my more recent stuff is harder than his more recent levels
Suffice to say, I probably haven't quite reached the high end of difficulty Icho and Armani can make with their levels yet, though I suspect I'm not that far behind them in that area Some rulesets are very restrictive and challenging to design around and meet criteria for and hence some rulesets will have levels that are significantly easier than others for the most part. Even then, it's still very much possible to be able to make a challenging level regardless of how restrictive the rulesets are if one knows how and does it with proper care
You can see the rulesets I came up with for LDC #33 in more detail here: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=7212.0. This link is also in the OP on page 1 in this topic
#14
Contests / Re: Level Design Contest #33 -...
Last post by JawaJuice - November 25, 2025, 11:36:30 PMHi! Hopefully this topic is open to all, not just the authors? I thought I'd give these levels a playtest
TBH I was about to give up after to failing to complete any of the levels in R1 (Armani's I just have no idea lol, it seems impossible, Crane's I always seem to be one pixel shy of a solution whatever I do, IchoTolot's I find I'm a skill short of being able to do it and kaywhyn's, I feel I have what must be the solution but the timing means I can only save 4 out of 5). But then I tried R2, and it seemed significantly easier. I dunno whether that was intentional?
Anyway, my replays for R2 attached - hopefully they are your intended solutions. I enjoyed all of these levels, especially Armani's Rusty Ruin Zone, which was the most challenging of the four I'd say.
TBH I was about to give up after to failing to complete any of the levels in R1 (Armani's I just have no idea lol, it seems impossible, Crane's I always seem to be one pixel shy of a solution whatever I do, IchoTolot's I find I'm a skill short of being able to do it and kaywhyn's, I feel I have what must be the solution but the timing means I can only save 4 out of 5). But then I tried R2, and it seemed significantly easier. I dunno whether that was intentional?
Anyway, my replays for R2 attached - hopefully they are your intended solutions. I enjoyed all of these levels, especially Armani's Rusty Ruin Zone, which was the most challenging of the four I'd say.
#15
NeoLemmix Main / Re: kaywhyn's and Icho's Advic...
Last post by Dullstar - November 25, 2025, 09:52:51 PMQuote from: Armani on November 25, 2025, 04:49:44 PMI prefer not to release all solutions at the same time I publish my levels because I enjoy seeing how far players can get without having the answers available from the start. For me, part of the fun of creating levels is watching people try to solve them on their own first and many players also enjoy the challenge of approaching a new pack without immediate spoilers. That said, whenever someone tells me they're stuck on a particular level and asks for the solution I always provide it. This has been the case for every pack I've ever released without exception.
Adding to this: It's REALLY difficult to gauge the difficulty of a level you've just created, because you already know how it's supposed to be solved, and you can get all sorts of feedback as a result of people attempting the level; even if you only get back a set of replays, you'll see that the hardest levels (for that player at least) remain unsolved. If someone spoils themselves, though, then they can generate their own replay for the level, and you lose that feedback unless they explicitly tell you that they had to look it up.
#16
NeoLemmix Levels / Re: LemFan's various packs
Last post by JawaJuice - November 25, 2025, 05:30:09 PMYep, your solution is pretty much the same as mine, which doesn't surprise me - I don't see any other way it could be done.
#17
NeoLemmix Levels / Re: LemFan's various packs
Last post by JawaJuice - November 25, 2025, 05:23:20 PMFunnily enough, I *just* cracked it I was just about to post my replay, which I will do and then compare to yours, LemFan. I'm not sure what trick @plodderuk was referring to - I didn't need any tricks, just had to send the climbers up closer together so that the bomber doesn't disrupt the wall for the second climber.
While you're here, @LemFan, do you agree that The Top Card is not solvable as it stands?
I'll also say Lemmings Obliterated was a nice pack It's a pity you never got around to finishing it off.
I was just about to post my replay, which I will do and then compare to yours, LemFan. I'm not sure what trick @plodderuk was referring to - I didn't need any tricks, just had to send the climbers up closer together so that the bomber doesn't disrupt the wall for the second climber.While you're here, @LemFan, do you agree that The Top Card is not solvable as it stands?
I'll also say Lemmings Obliterated was a nice pack
It's a pity you never got around to finishing it off. #18
NeoLemmix Levels / Re: LemFan's various packs
Last post by LemFan - November 25, 2025, 05:05:03 PMHere is the replay, this is the solution! It is solvable
#19
NeoLemmix Main / Re: kaywhyn's and Icho's Advic...
Last post by Armani - November 25, 2025, 04:49:44 PMQuoteWhatever the reason, the level was unsolvable, causing the player unnecessary annoyance and wasting a significant amount of their time. If there's a simple way to help prevent this, we should do it.
QuoteYou're right that it works the majority of the time, but there will always be examples that slip through even when it isn't the author's fault. Unsolvable levels have been a problem since the beginning of custom level creation; if we can introduce a way to ensure that levels are solvable, we should do it. And as others have pointed out, there are other benefits to ensuring a solving replay is provided/available (i.e. documenting the intended solution).
I want to emphasize again that this incident began with the level of one specific user. And I think most people here are already aware that this user has caused other issues in the past, even aside from releasing an unsolvable level this time. I've been on this forum for six, almost seven years now and I've never felt that unsolvable levels were a problem serious enough to require any sort of drastic measure. In fact, despite having played countless levels over the years, this is the first time I've ever encountered an unsolvable one.
While unsolvable levels may have been a problem at the very beginning of custom level creation, they have become extremely rare as time has passed and as level design culture has developed. The history of Lemmings custom level design is long, and of course various issues have come up along the way. But NeoLemmix has grown through many discussions and community consensus and from that the NeoLemmix philosophy was formed.
Whenever a new designer published levels containing elements considered "bad design," the community explained why those elements were problematic and offered advice on how to improve. We haven't ignored or disincentivized the levels just because that's the simple method. I think the same approach is sufficient here as well. We can simply continue advising authors on why maintaining a working replay is beneficial for everyone (documenting the intended solution, providing it when asked etc...) And in fact, kaywhyn has already done an excellent job of this in this very thread.
QuoteYes, exactly. If you fail to provide verification for your level, it should be marked as unverified.
QuoteAuthors who (for whatever reason) don't want to provide verification can choose not to, but their levels should then be marked as unverified. They would still be playable, and if it's a well-established author such as yourself, I imagine the "Unverified" marker wouldn't really matter so much.
For me the marker actually would matter. It's true that long-time forum members wouldn't doubt the solvability of my levels but new users join from time to time, and I would not want my levels to carry a label that might unintentionally suggest something is wrong with them. The word "unverified" can easily create the wrong impression, even if that's not the intention.
QuoteWhy not?
I prefer not to release all solutions at the same time I publish my levels because I enjoy seeing how far players can get without having the answers available from the start. For me, part of the fun of creating levels is watching people try to solve them on their own first and many players also enjoy the challenge of approaching a new pack without immediate spoilers. That said, whenever someone tells me they're stuck on a particular level and asks for the solution I always provide it. This has been the case for every pack I've ever released without exception.
Also, it's worth noting that on this forum, it's actually quite rare for authors to release full solution replays upfront. Only a small number of packs include solutions from the start. Most authors publish their levels without replays and later respond by confirming whether a player's submitted solutions are intended. My approach is very much in line with that long-standing community standard.
QuoteI suppose the counterpoint would be: if the author doesn't provide a replay, the player can simply choose not to play the level. This in itself might help to incentivise authors to provide solving replays.
I see where you're coming from but I feel that this would effectively turn into a disincentive for authors who choose not to include a replay. I think providing solution replays should remain entirely up to each author and they shouldn't be penalized in any way for their choice.
#20
NeoLemmix Levels / Re: Lock and Key [Difficulty: ...
Last post by 92Dexter11 - November 25, 2025, 03:41:43 PMHi Kaywhyn!
Thank you for another fantastic lets play of my pack. Once again, watching you attempt to solve each levels was a joy to watch!
You mentioned that some levels are too easy/difficult for their position in the pack, which I completely agree with, however this discrepancy is an intentional design decision.
I've always had a bad track record of not being able to gauge the difficulty of a level, and this pack, being narrative driven, presented a problem. Each level tells another part of the story, but is also intended to have continuity from the previous level (i.e., skills are meant to 'carry over' from previous levels - if Lock ends one level as a climber, he will start as a pre-assigned climber in the next level, and so on).
There's also intended to be tileset continuity to give the impression of a journey i.e., Autumn -> Autumn/Jade -> Jade -> Jade/Circuit -> Circuit -> Circuit/Lush and so on (The only exception to this is New Leaves/Epilogue, as I felt having the last two levels be a mirror of the first two was more narratively satisfying.)
There's also a third, more symbolic reason for the level's position, but I'll leave that for people to figure out.
For these reasons, shuffling levels around would be impossible as it would break the continuity. As a result, I deliberately designed each level to be of variable and inconsistent difficulty (except Epilogue which I wanted to be the hardest level of the pack
). While the levels do escalate in difficulty as you solve the pack, there are intended to be several easy levels to act as a break (This Erosion, Hanging Gardens and Silver Mines were all intended to be relatively easy for their position).
Thank you for letting me know about noticability/precision issues for a few levels, I've released an update for the pack.
Thanks again for your thoughtful words and fun playthrough!
I've updated the OP with modifications and fixes to the backroutes. See the OP for list of all changes.
Thank you for another fantastic lets play of my pack. Once again, watching you attempt to solve each levels was a joy to watch!
You mentioned that some levels are too easy/difficult for their position in the pack, which I completely agree with, however this discrepancy is an intentional design decision.
I've always had a bad track record of not being able to gauge the difficulty of a level, and this pack, being narrative driven, presented a problem. Each level tells another part of the story, but is also intended to have continuity from the previous level (i.e., skills are meant to 'carry over' from previous levels - if Lock ends one level as a climber, he will start as a pre-assigned climber in the next level, and so on).
There's also intended to be tileset continuity to give the impression of a journey i.e., Autumn -> Autumn/Jade -> Jade -> Jade/Circuit -> Circuit -> Circuit/Lush and so on (The only exception to this is New Leaves/Epilogue, as I felt having the last two levels be a mirror of the first two was more narratively satisfying.)
There's also a third, more symbolic reason for the level's position, but I'll leave that for people to figure out.
For these reasons, shuffling levels around would be impossible as it would break the continuity. As a result, I deliberately designed each level to be of variable and inconsistent difficulty (except Epilogue which I wanted to be the hardest level of the pack
). While the levels do escalate in difficulty as you solve the pack, there are intended to be several easy levels to act as a break (This Erosion, Hanging Gardens and Silver Mines were all intended to be relatively easy for their position).Thank you for letting me know about noticability/precision issues for a few levels, I've released an update for the pack.
Spoiler
Prologue - Nice solve! This actually isn't the intended solution, however I do not consider it to be a backroute as all skills are used.
Maverick - Intended solution, great job!
This Erosion - Nice work. Fun fact - this level is actually a holdover from Lemrunner - originally there was going to be a jungle level with the same name and layout as a reference to ONML, but was cut as I felt it didn't fit the vibe at the time.
Building Fencing - Great work! This one was especially rewarding to watch you solve. This was one of the last levels I made for the pack and was honestly intended as a filler level. The original version used miners instead of fencers, and was much much easier. I felt as though I had already made so many miner levels and very few fencing levels, so it was completely remade and became significantly harder. I'm quite surprised with how well it turned out and it's since become one of the levels I'm most proud of. Also, this level does have a locked exit, but now that I think about it, the button is completely superfluous. It's right next to the skill asigner that you need to pass through anyway, so removing the button wouldn't really change the level in any way.
Autopilot - This solution is actually not intended. However I do not consider it a backroute for two main reasons. 1 - it still is in the 'spirit' of the intended solution (building a bridge and digging down to avoid the trap). 2 - it is more convoluted than the intended solution, so I don't really feel the need to modify the terrain. Great work for finding this!
Bugs in the System - Backrouted. This will need fixing. Good work!
The Split - Another backroute. Fortunately, this seems like a relatively simple fix. Good job once again!
Hanging Gardens - Nice solution! I love the builder/shimmier trick because it's so satisfying to watch. I can never resist making a level which utilises it.
Top of the Ladder - Another solution which was extremely rewarding to watch you solve! The idea for this one actually came from my brother - when I first told him I was making a new pack, he sent me a very simple level concept which utilised a slightly different version of the digger/platformer trick which I played around with and modified into this level.
Pillarist - Yet another one that I enjoyed watching. This was the first level I made for the pack and another one I'm very proud of. Well done
Blockhead - Great work! This one's always tricky due to the tight timing.
Undertow - Another great job on this one. My brother also commented that this level was similar to the LemRunner level when I first showed it to him, and that did not occur to me when I was making it.
(Another fun fact - the four big stalactites in this level point to where Lock must start building to make the jumps easier)
Also, whoops! My name has a typo in the author of this level.
Drowned Rat - A level with an open-ended solution. I always enjoy watching what people come up with for this one, since like you said, it's not obvious at all where the builders need to go.
Bell Toll - Another level with an open-ended solution. Nice one.
Diving Chamber - Differs heavily from the intended solution, but is not a backroute. (I have different criteria for each level for what I consider to be a backroute. For this one, the intended solution is that the player must trap the neutral lemming inside the 'airlock', then free him later, which is what you do here. Good job!
Disjoint Disunion - Another nice solution.
Babel - This is a huge backroute, but fortunately it seems easy to fix. I agree that the neutralizer towards the end isn't clear enough, I'll replace it with a big one in a better location. The whole point of that neutraliser is to make it so you can't bypass the trap, but you managed to do that anyway! Great work, it seems I massively underestimated you!
No Looking Back - Another one which was very fun to watch you figure out, great job! This was also one of the very last levels made for the pack, as I was struggling to come up with decent solution that utilised the disarmer.
Silver Mines - Nice solution. Sorry about the precision! The distances in this one were precisely placed in order to fix an old backroute, however I'm not sure if that backroute still exists due to having the starting platform slighltly raised. I'm reluctant to change the terrain too much as this might ruin existing replays, but I'll try and add some context clues to make it more obvious/easier to build/jump, like a slightly elevated platform at the start.
Daybreak - Thank you! Another one that I'm hugely proud of and one that was fun to watch!
New Leaves - This, along with epilogue were both intended to be super tricky. The precision needed for the jumper/shimmier was originally more lenient, but it made the solution too obvious, so I changed it to make it harder. I'll have a look to see if I can make it slightly easier, but make no promises. Great solution!
Epilogue - Backrouted! Damn, I thought for sure this one was completely airtight. Fortunately, it seems like an easy fix. Well done for finding it!
Maverick - Intended solution, great job!
This Erosion - Nice work. Fun fact - this level is actually a holdover from Lemrunner - originally there was going to be a jungle level with the same name and layout as a reference to ONML, but was cut as I felt it didn't fit the vibe at the time.
Building Fencing - Great work! This one was especially rewarding to watch you solve. This was one of the last levels I made for the pack and was honestly intended as a filler level. The original version used miners instead of fencers, and was much much easier. I felt as though I had already made so many miner levels and very few fencing levels, so it was completely remade and became significantly harder. I'm quite surprised with how well it turned out and it's since become one of the levels I'm most proud of. Also, this level does have a locked exit, but now that I think about it, the button is completely superfluous. It's right next to the skill asigner that you need to pass through anyway, so removing the button wouldn't really change the level in any way.
Autopilot - This solution is actually not intended. However I do not consider it a backroute for two main reasons. 1 - it still is in the 'spirit' of the intended solution (building a bridge and digging down to avoid the trap). 2 - it is more convoluted than the intended solution, so I don't really feel the need to modify the terrain. Great work for finding this!
Bugs in the System - Backrouted. This will need fixing. Good work!
The Split - Another backroute. Fortunately, this seems like a relatively simple fix. Good job once again!
Hanging Gardens - Nice solution! I love the builder/shimmier trick because it's so satisfying to watch. I can never resist making a level which utilises it.
Top of the Ladder - Another solution which was extremely rewarding to watch you solve! The idea for this one actually came from my brother - when I first told him I was making a new pack, he sent me a very simple level concept which utilised a slightly different version of the digger/platformer trick which I played around with and modified into this level.
Pillarist - Yet another one that I enjoyed watching. This was the first level I made for the pack and another one I'm very proud of. Well done
Blockhead - Great work! This one's always tricky due to the tight timing.
Undertow - Another great job on this one. My brother also commented that this level was similar to the LemRunner level when I first showed it to him, and that did not occur to me when I was making it.
(Another fun fact - the four big stalactites in this level point to where Lock must start building to make the jumps easier)
Also, whoops! My name has a typo in the author of this level.
Drowned Rat - A level with an open-ended solution. I always enjoy watching what people come up with for this one, since like you said, it's not obvious at all where the builders need to go.
Bell Toll - Another level with an open-ended solution. Nice one.
Diving Chamber - Differs heavily from the intended solution, but is not a backroute. (I have different criteria for each level for what I consider to be a backroute. For this one, the intended solution is that the player must trap the neutral lemming inside the 'airlock', then free him later, which is what you do here. Good job!
Disjoint Disunion - Another nice solution.
Babel - This is a huge backroute, but fortunately it seems easy to fix. I agree that the neutralizer towards the end isn't clear enough, I'll replace it with a big one in a better location. The whole point of that neutraliser is to make it so you can't bypass the trap, but you managed to do that anyway! Great work, it seems I massively underestimated you!
No Looking Back - Another one which was very fun to watch you figure out, great job! This was also one of the very last levels made for the pack, as I was struggling to come up with decent solution that utilised the disarmer.
Silver Mines - Nice solution. Sorry about the precision! The distances in this one were precisely placed in order to fix an old backroute, however I'm not sure if that backroute still exists due to having the starting platform slighltly raised. I'm reluctant to change the terrain too much as this might ruin existing replays, but I'll try and add some context clues to make it more obvious/easier to build/jump, like a slightly elevated platform at the start.
Daybreak - Thank you! Another one that I'm hugely proud of and one that was fun to watch!
New Leaves - This, along with epilogue were both intended to be super tricky. The precision needed for the jumper/shimmier was originally more lenient, but it made the solution too obvious, so I changed it to make it harder. I'll have a look to see if I can make it slightly easier, but make no promises. Great solution!
Epilogue - Backrouted! Damn, I thought for sure this one was completely airtight. Fortunately, it seems like an easy fix. Well done for finding it!
Thanks again for your thoughtful words and fun playthrough!
I've updated the OP with modifications and fixes to the backroutes. See the OP for list of all changes.