Doing a bit of catching up on the wish list and gathering all the various threads of ideas together today. I think we can safely rule out the Surfer - at this point, it's more likely we'll either get the Hoverboarder, or maybe some sort of super-Runner that can run across Water objects, rather than a dedicated skill just for this one niche purpose.

Topic closed 21/7/23

---

EDIT 28/723 - It's been decided that, due to the increased variety of water-object-types in SuperLemmix, having a skill that ignores them all renders these game elements potentially redundant, and so isn't something I'd like to introduce at this point. See this post for more details/context regarding the Hoverboarder skill.

Variable countdown timers for Radiation and Slowfreeze have now been added!

The value is set in the Editor, in the Pieces tab, when clicking on one of the objects. There is a maximum value of 99 seconds and a minimum value of 1 second, with the default value set to 10 seconds.

If for some reason a level contains one of these objects and a countdown timer has not been set, or has a 0 value, the player will default the countdown to 10 seconds.

This will feature in SLX 2.5, along with (hopefully) an improved animation for each...

Player support in Commit 34d43cda1.
Editor support in Commit 5a0e4ee.

I stand by what I said: SuperLemmix provides a Classic Mode, and my advice would be to make sure your levels can be played and completed in that mode.

However, to make it very clear - it will never become an outright requirement for designers to ensure "Classic Mode playability". It's purely advisory, in the same way that "don't hide the Exit" is advisory in NeoLemmix - people still can, and do, release levels with hidden Exits!

To address some of the individual points:

Quote from: Strato Incendus on July 20, 2023, 08:35:06 AM
this rule would effectively force everyone to play in classic mode who chooses to design levels

Again, it's not a rule. I'll never bother to do anything to enforce Classic Mode in any way, shape, or form. The option is there and that's as far as it goes, engine-side.

However, it still seems worth expressing that designers may want to ensure that their levels can be solved in Classic Mode, both for the player's sake, and as an optional layer of quality-checking.

Quote from: Strato Incendus on July 20, 2023, 08:35:06 AM
It may depend on your viewpoint whether designing levels is a service to the community, or playing the pack a favour the community does the level designer.

Personally, and from experience, I'd say it's very much a two-way street.

Quote from: Strato Incendus on July 20, 2023, 08:35:06 AM
if this becomes an official requirement for packs to be released

It won't.

Quote from: Strato Incendus on July 20, 2023, 08:35:06 AM
Most importantly, it requires that all levels be solvable (in a reasonable amount of time) without any skill shadows whatsoever.

If there is a "SuperLemmix Philosophy" (and I hope there isn't!), it would be that all levels should be able to be played, and completed, without the player-assists - no exceptions. That's something I feel strongly enough about that Classic Mode exists in the first place!

But again, it will never become a requirement - note that SuperLemmix still provides every player-assist tool that NeoLemmix does, with the exception of Skill Projection shadows, which I've always felt are taking the concept a step too far.

But, it also provides a button which says "I dare you to turn them off!"

Quote from: Strato Incendus on July 20, 2023, 08:35:06 AM
That is simply not something NeoLemmix level creators ever had to work with over all the years I've been on the forums

Just because something has or hasn't been done a certain way for a long time doesn't make it good, or right. Ideas and concepts need to be able to stand up to scrutiny away from any notions of "it's the established way things are done". And I mean that generally, not just in the context of the current discussion topic.

Quote from: Strato Incendus on July 20, 2023, 08:35:06 AM
Every miner or builder assignment now becomes up for debate whether it qualifies as "too precise for classic mode".

And so it should - does anyone really want to play a level where every Builder assignment must be placed on one particular frame, with absolutely no leeway? I definitely don't!

I don't want to get bogged down in examples, but I feel the need to illustrate a point here. Imagine a level where you have to build across a large gap, but in order to make it to the other side, each Builder must be placed at the absolute extreme tip of the previous Builder bridge. Now, in order to make it across, it's necessary to framestep back and forth a the end of each bridge until you find the very last pixel.

Classic Mode is a good way to discourage this sort of fiddliness away from the game with one broad brush-stroke. Another way would be to implement block-based physics rather than pixel-based, and those games that do so (L3D, Revolutions and the 2018 mobile game) do benefit from a reduction in this sort of gameplay. However, I personally find that they become a bit too paint-by-the-numbers as a result, and it's not as possible for players to be as inventive with a level's solution as they could in the earlier games.

Similarly, over-reliance on player assists actually has the same effect on the game in NeoLemmix - levels become solvable only by their intended solution, and designers can make sure that this is the case down to the very last pixel. With Classic Mode, I'm aiming to help strike a balance and provide a platform that allows players (as well as level designers) to get a bit more creative again.

Quote from: Strato Incendus on July 20, 2023, 08:35:06 AM
What about certain skill tricks, like the Miner-Miner-cancel trick, or even just stopping a Basher mid-stroke to create a ramp? What about six-pixel Digger-Basher staircases? All of these are difficult without framestepping, too.

If I never see another six-pixel Digger-Basher staircase level as long as I'm playing custom Lemmings, I'll be a very happy WillLem

With that said, such tricks may be difficult without Framestepping, but they are still possible. Some tricks and skill interactions are simply not possible in real-time, and if they aren't, then by necessity they require the player to pause, framestep, check the skill shadow, etc, etc, repeat ad absurdum.

What's better is a level that might take a bit of brainpower to find the solution, and a bit of eyeballing to get the correct placements, but that can then be executed with a minimum of player input per-action (ideally, 1 click). Enter Classic Mode.

Quote from: Strato Incendus on July 20, 2023, 08:35:06 AM
Classic mode, in my view, is about players who choose to bring higher (potentially unintended) execution difficulty on themselves

It's been said a number of times now that SuperLemmix is "an execution-difficulty-focused" engine, and I suppose that perspective on the project is inevitable. But, what's closer to the truth is that I'm trying to strike a balance between puzzle difficulty and execution difficulty. When you have too much of one or the other, it's not a good thing.

One of the reasons I decided to start work on SuperLemmix is because I encountered one too many custom packs that was essentially a series of impenetrable picture puzzles that leave nothing to the imagination, and expect the player to perform the exact series of actions necessary to piece together the designer's idea of how the level should be played.

In my humble opinion, the best level packs are those which present variation across the board, in terms of level design concepts, puzzle difficulty, execution difficulty, skill types used in each level, map design, etc, and which often present a number of different possible solutions to any given level. There are, thankfully, plenty of examples of those on the Forums - but, I'd say they're in the minority, from what I've seen. With SuperLemmix, I'm aiming to encourage more of these!

Quote from: Strato Incendus on July 20, 2023, 08:35:06 AM
classic mode creates a "general suspicion" of execution difficulty, holding level designers to a standard of leeway with regards to skill assignment that was never imposed on them in all of the years of NeoLemmix's existence.

Again, just because something has been a certain way for years doesn't mean it's been the right way for years. And, NeoLemmix has imposed plenty of its own restrictions on level designers "over the years", as I'm sure you're aware

Anyway, as I've now said several times, Classic Mode is not being imposed on anyone in any way, shape, or form - it's an option, and it wil always remain so. If "SuperLemmix philosophy" ends up becoming a thing, then that's really a different matter. I'd personally rather it didn't, but I suppose it is inevitable given its history.

All I can do, then, is aim to shape it into something which helps define a more balanced and varied style of level creation. By recommending that designers verify the "Classic Mode playability" of their levels, my hope is that it will help to highlight the designer's more playable, enjoyable levels - which I'm sure it will.

Quote from: Strato Incendus on July 20, 2023, 08:35:06 AM
This requirement would make what is currently a player choice — classic mode — mandatory; not for the players, but for the level designers ... if it does become a requirement, I'm out.

Again, it will never become a requirement, either on the player's side or the designer's side. Designers won't be able to force it on the player, and players will have to accept the possibility that any custom level they play might not be possible in Classic Mode. The advice I've given in this topic is to help mitigate the latter of these two scenarios.

Quote from: Strato Incendus on July 20, 2023, 08:35:06 AM
I've come to realise how often puzzle difficulty and execution difficulty / pixel precision can go hand in hand at higher ranks

Two things here:

1) Execution difficulty and pixel precision are not the same thing. I wouldn't even count them as being on the same side of the coin. Maybe different sides of the same dice.

2) Indeed, NepsterLems is a great example of a levelpack which manages to find that balance between what's hard to figure out and what's hard to execute. Other examples are GeoffLems and Lemmings Plus I, which are amongst my favourites. Perhaps it's no coincidence that all of these were made in the days before the abundance of Player-assists!

Quote from: Strato Incendus on July 20, 2023, 08:35:06 AM
the level designer cannot allow for more leeway with regards to the position of the skill assignment, lest that leeway will introduce backroutes

If I had to add further definition to "SuperLemmix philosophy", it would be to say that backroutes are OK, as long as they're interesting

---

TL:DR;

Classic Mode is optional, and always will be, on both the player's side and the designer's side. I will make no move whatsoever towards making it anything more than advisory.

I'll add to that - in terms of said advice, I'll only likely give it outside of this topic if it's asked for, and even then I'll probably simply point the person towards this topic so they can read the discussion and make their own mind up about it.

"SuperLemmix philosophy" isn't something I really like the idea of, and I've said so elsewhere. But, if it has to exist, then I hope it does so in the form of encouraging a move towards greater variety in level design and an increase in enjoyable, playable levels which strike a balance between real-time playability and puzzle difficulty. One of the best ways I can think of to achieve this is encourage the use of Classic Mode, which will help designers to consider the real-time playability of their levels and hopefully promote a move away from over-reliance on player-assists.

Oh, and backroutes are OK as long as they're interesting

Regretfully, we won't be getting the Swimmer-Blocker after all.

I've run into far too many problems with it and have got to the point where the difficulty in implementation is outweighing the potential benefit of the feature.

In case I ever decide to revisit it in the future, the two main problems are these:

a) It doesn't seem possible to check for water at the actual rendering stage - this can only be done in LemGame (post-rendering). So, any Swimmer that's assigned a Blocker anywhere in the level (not just in water) is given the replacement "SwimBlocker" sprite. Since it's necessary to do the sprite-swap at the rendering stage, I currently can't see any way around this.

b) Pre-assigned Swimmer-Blockers transition immediately to Faller, and then Swimmer, no matter what I try. I've looked at every thread I can find that directly affects Swimmers and Blockers, and I've tried changing the order of priority for pre-assigned skills. No luck, sadly.
Note to self: LemGame's AddPreplacedLemmings and LemRendering's RenderWorld might be the key to unlocking this one - they may need to be mutually co-ordinated

It is still technically possible to assign Blockers in water, but it doesn't seem worth having this behaviour without the sprite to go with it. I even tried giving the SwimBlocker its own method independent of a regular Blocker, but since both states need to be tied to all the same various points-of-assignment (i.e. Skill Panel button, Replay event, Pre-placed lem, etc), it starts to get very wonky very quickly, and is extremely bug-prone.

So, for now, we'll have to let this idea go.

We can still use double-stacked Freezers to Block lems in water, with the added bonus that these are also Zombie-proof!

---

Meanwhile, we will still be getting Jumper and Shimmier assignability as of SuperLemmix 2.5

I'm excited about this change because I believe it will make the Swimmer skill a bit more versatile and a bit more valuable. I look forward to seeing these interactions in people's levels!

Quote from: Strato Incendus on July 20, 2023, 09:41:51 AM
Especially since the highlight lemming no longer works the same way as it used to, as well.

I haven't changed anything about the Highlight lemming feature - again, this might be a hotkeys thing. I'd strongly encourage you to move the hotkeys.ini file over from NeoLemmix\settings to the same folder in SuperLemmix in order to avoid any further issues.

Or, head to the F2 menu, Configure Hotkeys, and click "Set To Alternative Layout" - this will restore NL defaults, if that's what you're used to. As of 2.5, this button will simply say "Set To NeoLemmix Layout"!

Quote from: Strato Incendus on July 20, 2023, 09:41:51 AM
What is supposed to happen is that clothes and hair swap colours, just like for regular blue-green lemmings.

We've resolved this via PM, but just to keep everyone in the loop:

The current default scheme.nxmi isn't set up to take hair-colour-swapping into account. This has now been restored and will be available as of 2.5 - note that the current hair and clothes colours for athletes will remain the default. If you wish to mod your own copy, then you are of course welcome to do so.

---

Regarding Swimmer recolouring, I've added it to the wish list under "discussion pending" - it seems worth getting a bit more feedback on this idea first, since it's a prominent visual change.

Fixed in Commit 18a5ad7a3.

Yes, this is indeed a Dangler bug - I've updated the topic title to reflect this.

It seems that the following conditions have to be correct in order for this to happen:

- Terrain platform must be no more than 1px high
- Dangler's foot position must be no more or less than 1px higher than the platform (meaning a 10px gap between platform and Dangler's hand)

Now that we have Classic Mode, it behoves level designers to make sure their levels are playable with it activated.

Bear with me on this...

In an ideal world, SuperLemmix would have an in-built check similar to MRC which would scan over a replay and see whether it can be completed whilst in Classic Mode. I suppose it could check to see if there are multiple different skill assignments within a certain range of frames, but make reasonable allowances where possible.

So, for example, 2 rapidly-assigned Walkers to free-and-turn a Blocker wouldn't flag up, as that can be done in real time by simply double-clicking. Whereas a Walker, then a Builder, then a Basher (for example) to 3 different lems on 3 consecutive frames would flag up as not reasonably possible in real-time, and would fail the check.

Even if such a check could be performed, there would still need to be a replay provided. And, if a level designer were to supply such a replay for this purpose, then it's reasonable to expect that the same designer would be happy to run through the level in Classic Mode themselves anyway.

So, rather than attempt to do any programming around this, I'll simply recommend that anyone making levels for SLX kindly check for its "Classic Mode Playability", at least for the sake of any end user who may prefer to play with it activated at all times.

In addition, think of it as a way to quality-check your level and make sure it isn't an overly-fiddly mess! I speak to myself here as much as anyone else - any of my levels that can't be completed in Classic Mode won't make the cut for any ports/remixes that make their way over to SLX, and I'd encourage other level creators to think the same way.

Here are my portal objects in case they're of any use:


EDIT: Thinking about it, the swirl should probably turn in the opposite direction for "IN" and "OUT"... that could be arranged

For assigners/de-assigners, maybe the custom pickup from willlem_lemminas might help? I feel like these should look somewhat like pickups, maybe the de-assigner could have an exclamation mark or a strikethrough / across the frame:



For neutralizers/de-neutralisers, I'd suggest a simple doorway with a sign showing a neutral lemming and another showing a regular lemming, kind of like this:

Quote from: jkapp76 on July 19, 2023, 09:20:40 PM
Have you ever considered recoloring swimmer lemmings to look like the revolution's water lemmings?

Good idea, we can look at separate Swimmer recolourings for sure. I agree it would be good to be able to see Swimmer lems at a glance.

My only reservation is that there are already 4 different tunic colourings for lems: normal, athlete, zombie and neutral. A fifth might be pushing it, especially since custom styles may use completely different colours for each.

For the record, though, I personally wouldn't be against the idea. Anyone else in favour?

Quote from: Strato Incendus on July 19, 2023, 10:09:37 PM
I like those new Jumper and Shimmier interactions! I just refuse to worry about all the new backroutes this will probably introduce into my existing levels right now...

That's the spirit!

Quote from: Strato Incendus on July 19, 2023, 10:09:37 PM
It's harder to spot the athletes in a crowd now.

Quote from: jkapp76 on July 19, 2023, 10:15:17 PM
I have a hard time seeing the athletes too.

This was done partly to mitigate the above issue (i.e. lots of state recolourings to distinguish between), and partly because I just prefer blue tunic, green hair.

If you want the NL athlete recolouring, paste the following into the scheme.nxmi file in styles\default\lemmings under $STATE_RECOLORING:


  $ATHLETE
    FROM x00B000
    TO x4040DF
  $END
 
  $ATHLETE
    FROM x4040E0
    TO x00AF00
  $END


And, be sure to delete this:


  $ATHLETE
    FROM x4040E0
    TO x202080
  $END


Quote from: Strato Incendus on July 19, 2023, 10:09:37 PM
I've discovered that this also affects custom sprites, e.g. my African lemmings, even though the colour swap is written into the theme file. Meaning, even if I want the athletes to swap colours for my own sprite sets, apparently SuperLemmix does something else with them.

This shouldn't be happening to your own sprites - I haven't changed anything about the hard-coding of colour swaps. Please can you send me a copy of theme.nxmi from one of your affected styles and I'll see if I can see what's going wrong.

Quote from: Strato Incendus on July 19, 2023, 10:09:37 PM
I also don't see how Swimmers could be recoloured separately from other athletes

It would essentially mean adding an extra state recolouring for just Swimmers. Not out of the question by any means.

Quote from: jkapp76 on July 19, 2023, 10:31:05 PM
You could have him casually jump from the board instead of crash. Or even pick it up, never to be used again.

Or go full bugs bunny and splat him on the wall and get back up.

I think we all know which of these ideas we'll be going with

Quote from: Strato Incendus on July 18, 2023, 11:41:30 AM
If we think of the application of the Hoverboarder as a Surfer (i.e., a one-time Swimmer)

I don't think the Hoverboarder should be relegated to a one-time Swimmer - it's unlikely that the Surfer will be implemented due to this limitation, so I'm hesitant to place it onto the Hoverboarder.

Quote from: Strato Incendus on July 18, 2023, 11:41:30 AM
Rather, to the extent that it resembles a Glider when falling, the Hoverboarder could be a "one-time Floater / Glider", too

It would make sense for the Hoverboarder to survive one fall, but no falls thereafter. What's the reason for this limitation? And, what if the first fall is much larger than the second?

I think at this point I should rule out any notions of single-use actions for this skill, if only from a POV of personal preference. I don't mind the Hoverboarder being non-permanent, but its effect should be continuous, and predictable, until the action is finished.

Meanwhile, there does need to be something besides player-driven-cancelling which terminates the skill's effect - in the same way that Shimmiers stop when there is no more Shimmyable terrain. The problem with the Hoverboarder is that there is nothing that would obviously stop the skill, other than maybe crashing into a wall? That could work...

Quote from: Strato Incendus on July 18, 2023, 11:41:30 AM
The crucial question here is whether the Hoverboarder would then consequently also be cancelled after having performed a single jump. As far as I currently understand it, this will be the exception?

I imagine that the Hoverboarder/Runner will have an extended jump range, and the action will continue thereafter. Since SLX will eventually be getting the Trampolene, it's necessary to implement the Super-Jump, which will take place when a lem lands on a Trampolene from a great height; the Hoverboarder/Runner would use this same action.

Quote from: Strato Incendus on July 18, 2023, 11:41:30 AM
a Hoverboarder that's also a Slider never gets the opportunity to hold on to the edge, because, due to the hoverboard, he's actually floating above the edge already

I guess this can be seen as a caveat of the increased speed - it's one of the reasons I don't think construction or destruction skills should be assignable - the lem is simply moving too fast to perform them.

Quote from: Floyd Brannon on July 18, 2023, 05:24:26 PM
You could make this a pick-up skill only. Then the lemming must pick up the board to fly on it. and only the lemming that grabs it can fly?

Not a bad idea, actually. I was thinking the same thing for the SuperLem.

Quote from: Floyd Brannon on July 18, 2023, 05:24:26 PM
The hoverboarder should fall to his death after an extended jump, just like gravity and velocity would do.

This seems contractictory to the premise of a "Hoverboard", which would surely cushion the lem's fall. Unfortunately, we don't really have any real-world examples, and even Back To The Future Part II doesn't show what would happen if hoverboarding down from a height. However, if we assume that the hoverboards as depicted in the film use the same technology as flying cars, then they probably would descend gradually, particurly if they're able to take the weight of two full-grown adults (BTTF Part III shows this in action).

Quote from: Strato Incendus on July 19, 2023, 12:36:40 PM
The use for crossing water objects with a Hoverboarder would be higher in SuperLemmix, since we now also have lava / acid / poison - water objects that Swimmers cannot cross, but a skill that can hover over the trigger area without ever touching it can.

Yes, exactly. This is the main reason I haven't reverted to the Runner.

---

OK, let's make some decisions regarding the Hoverboarder.

The skill shouldn't be permanent. That feels right, especially since it's quite overpowered (ignores water, traps, and falls).

The skill should be cancellable by more than just the Walker - OK, but which other skills? Shimmier is an easy yes, Jumpers we've decided should be integrated into the action itself, explosion-based skills are obvious, but most other skills honestly don't feel quite right. Speaking of which...

I think we should rule out any action that can't begin unless there is terrain under the lem's feet - so that would be all destruction and construction skills. We can't count the hoverboard as terrain, since - by Lemmings-world-logic, it would no longer be there once the new action has started.

And, I'd like to rule out single-use actions for the Hoverboarder. Any of its properties (fall-surviving, water-crossing, etc) should be active throughout the skill's duration; let's keep it simple.

---

Next question, then:

Since it's not permanent, we need some in-game logic that auto-cancels the skill. I propose hitting a wall; since the lem approaches at speed, they bounce away and fall off the board (but stay facing the same way). Then, they get up and do whatever they would do when reaching the wall as a Walker. So, effectively, we get our Climber transition back.

Thoughts?

Made some progress on this today.

Jumpers, Shimmiers and Blockers can now be assigned to Swimmers. The Blocker code is identical, but checks for water and Swimmer ability have been added, along with a sprite swap.

All behave exactly as expected. Along with the updates to Zombies-in-Poison, the Swimmer is shaping up to be a much more interesting and versatile skill!

Here's a video demo showing all three interactions:

OK, we now have a new Zombie-specific action: the Drifter.

Non-Swimmers entering Poison now become Drifters. These move at half the speed of Swimmers, through Poison only - Water is still fatal to all non-Swimmers, including Zombies.

Swimmer Zombies, meanwhile, swim through both Water and Poison.

I think this is simple enough to grasp, especially when you see it in action. The panel display has been updated to show what's happening as well (note that the lem highlighted in red is the one currently selected):

Thanks! Is it possible to share a portable with all of this already done, or does the process have to be completed per-user?