Author Topic: [GENERAL] [DISCUSSION] Culling some options for objects  (Read 8179 times)

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Offline namida

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[GENERAL] [DISCUSSION] Culling some options for objects
« on: March 14, 2016, 09:32:18 AM »
Can anyone think of any reason why this flag should be kept? These days, NeoLemmix automatically applies only-draw-on-terrain to one-way arrows; outside of that, the only use cases I can think of for it are invisible objects (which is better served by the actual "invisible" option, which doesn't draw the object at all rather than taking the time to attempt to draw it, and finding every pixel doesn't need to be drawn), or in very rare cases for graphical effect, the only case I can think of being Fun 20 / Mayhem 7 of Orig (those who've only played the DOS version won't know what I'm referring to here - try the Amiga version (which the NeoLemmix version is also based off) and you'll see what I'm meaning).

It's possible I've overlooked something, so feel free to point this out if I have. But otherwise, I'm thinking it's time to drop that option.



EDIT

Also we may as well call two other options into question here - "Invisible" and "Fake". These do have a bit more use - yes, it is possible to use them in ways that would be "bad level design", but the way I see it, that does not in and of itself justify removing a feature. At any rate, these could be worked around by simply creating new objects that have no effect (or an effect but no graphic). This means that removal of them merely makes acheiving the effect less convenient. However, it would still be somewhat of a deterrent to bad level design - especially for the type of people who think "hey, there's an option, I MUST find a way to use this no matter how bad the resulting level is!".

One case I can think of where a single level uses both fake and invisible objects to interesting effect is "It's Opposite Day!" from Lemmings Plus IV. This level contains a fake window on the left side and a fake exit on the right side. There is then an invisible window where the visible-but-fake exit is placed, and an invisible exit (actually, several of them, to give a larger trigger area) where the visible-but-fake window is placed, giving the level its theme of opposites - as from the user's point of view, the lemmings spawn from the exit, and must reach the entrance.

EDIT: The decision has been made to not remove any of these options.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2016, 11:11:06 PM by namida »
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Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [GENERAL] [DISCUSSION] The "Only On Terrain" flag for objects
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2016, 09:59:22 AM »
I am using this flag sometimes for decorative objects. You can make so many awesome looking things with this.
Putting animatied objects on preparated terrain pieces, so that new effects are created with it.

For example: The ceiling decoration in Pagoda St. from Pieuw.


Offline namida

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Re: [GENERAL] [DISCUSSION] The "Only On Terrain" flag for objects
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2016, 10:22:37 AM »
Fair enough. If there's valid use for it, I can consider keeping it - we'll wait and see what other people say too, though.

The next question then would be - should it be usable for all object types, or only purely-decorative ones? If the former, should objects using it be always treated as fake? It makes little sense, at least to me, to (except for one-way arrows, of course) use such a feature on an object that is intended to do something.
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Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [GENERAL] [DISCUSSION] The "Only On Terrain" flag for objects
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2016, 10:38:41 AM »
Well, it depends on the object animation. 
The fire-hydrant is well suited for this and it has an effect, so I would vote for usable for all objects.
But these can be treated all as fake though, as you use it for the animation and not for the effect.

Offline Nepster

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Re: [GENERAL] [DISCUSSION] The "Only On Terrain" flag for objects
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2016, 11:21:25 AM »
But otherwise, I'm thinking it's time to drop that option.
Excellent idea!

There are a a few cases where this setting might be useful, as IchoTolot already mentioned. However having an option is overkill. I suggest creating an object type called Decoration on terrain for all object pieces that do not interact with lemmings at all, except for exit tops: It is an object that (like one-way-walls) automatically and always applies the "Only On Terrain" flag.
This has two advantages:
- Level designers cannot trick players with non-solid objects that appear to be solid.
- Level designers still can decorate existing terrain and the decoration still gets removed when lemmings bash, mine or dig through it.

The fire-hydrant is well suited for this and it has an effect, so I would vote for usable for all objects.
I cannot think of any application of "Only on Terrain" for traps, exits, ... that is good level design. So how would you use the fire-hydrant together with "Only on Terrain"?

On a related note: Please consider culling the option Invisible Objects as well, as disussed in the thread Remove useless options from Inspector window.

Offline namida

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Re: [GENERAL] [DISCUSSION] Culling some options for objects
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2016, 11:36:27 AM »
Quote
I cannot think of any application of "Only on Terrain" for traps, exits, ... that is good level design. So how would you use the fire-hydrant together with "Only on Terrain"?
I think he means using it as a fake object, so that its animation would give an interesting effect to the terrain? I'm not entirely sure though as I'm not familiar with the object in question.

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On a related note: Please consider culling the option Invisible Objects as well, as disussed in the thread Remove useless options from Inspector window.
This matter is related enough that it can fit in this topic too. I edited the original post to reflect this, and also brought up the Fake setting at the same time.
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Offline Simon

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Re: [GENERAL] [DISCUSSION] Culling some options for objects
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2016, 12:27:19 PM »
Every gadget should do one thing, all the time. Exits should not be used as deco, or to mark invisible entrances.

There is already a decorative gadget type, the no-effect object.

The hydrants, trees, trashcans in the Shadow tileset, they're absurdly confusing. I always forget what is earth and what is deco, and ask Icho every time. There is no single rule by which I can guess what's solid. I want such a rule.

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Offline Nepster

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Re: [GENERAL] [DISCUSSION] Culling some options for objects
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2016, 12:36:18 PM »
I would keep the option Fake for now, because fake pickup skills are used to mark hatches with preassigned skills. But after finding a proper way to annotate hatches, I see no more uses for Fake objects.

Quote
At any rate, these [missing Invisibilty] could be worked around by simply creating new objects that have no effect (or an effect but no graphic).
Having two objects looking the same, but having different effects is very confusing for players. If one wants a new object with some effect, the picture should differ sufficiently so that players can easily distinguish them.

Quote
One case I can think of where a single level uses both fake and invisible objects to interesting effect is "It's Opposite Day!" from Lemmings Plus IV.
Sorry, but I did not find that an "interesting effect". When I played the level, I thought this was some new weird gimmick.
If anyone wants to play this level, it's Smooth 10.

Offline namida

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Re: [GENERAL] [DISCUSSION] Culling some options for objects
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2016, 12:37:45 PM »
Simon's points here seem to come down to what many discussions do (in particular, the terrain on steel one comes to mind) - whether the priority should be 100% clear indication of what any given piece is/does (impossible in practice - as mentioned by ccexplore; looking at a lone pixel, you cannot tell if it's part of an object or part of terrain, no matter what that object does - but while 100% is impossible, getting somewhat close to it is not), or whether allowing some deviation from this for aesthetic / thematic purposes is acceptable.

I feel that this could somewhat be solved with either (a) an option to hide all no effect / fake objects and render all invisible objects visible. This would interfere with the aesthetics of any levels using these features, but it would not affect the levels functionally. I can think of one case where it actually means the level is less "fair" than without enabling that option, but such a case is very much the exception rather than the rule. Or (b), some option - perhaps via a hotkey, with the effect only lasting while the key is held - that temporarily replaces the proper rendering of the level with something akin to the "debug steel" mode, that foregoes all graphical detail in favor of a simple scheme of "color a = solid terrain; color b = steel terrain; color c = exit trigger", etc.

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Having two objects looking the same, but having different effects is very confusing for players. If one wants a new object with some effect, the picture should differ sufficiently so that players can easily distinguish them.
Yes - but there's no realistic way the engine can really enforce this one. If someone wants to have fake or invisible objects, then even if the options are removed, creating new objects of those kinds is a way they could still do so. That's the point I was trying to make there.
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Offline Simon

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Re: [GENERAL] [DISCUSSION] Culling some options for objects
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2016, 12:50:18 PM »
Simon's points here
looking at a lone pixel
while 100% is impossible, getting somewhat close to it is not

I'm not concerned with individual pixels here. I'm concerned with entire tiles.

The editor invites faking through a cornucopia of baroque options per tile. That's bad. The editor should invite proper design. Doing the right thing should be easy. Let authors invest some criminal energy to re-create entire fake tiles from individual pixels.

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(b), some option

Fewer options! Not more!

Options point to an underlying design question instead.

-- Simon

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [GENERAL] [DISCUSSION] Culling some options for objects
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2016, 02:26:38 PM »
Fewer options! Not more!

Options point to an underlying design question instead.

And then you have such bare options that so many things are impossible to do. (the same case as with the RR + timers :8():)

Rotate, flip, invert  ensures that the pice is exactly the way you want it.

Not overwrite, only on terrain  ensures that the right parts of the piece is visible so that it looks good

Of course there lies criminal energy in abusing the settings, but this lies everywhere!

People must learn that hidden traps are bad and they must learn that misleading things are bad either. (and for the majority they have learned it!)

I cannot think of any application of "Only on Terrain" for traps, exits, ... that is good level design. So how would you use the fire-hydrant together with "Only on Terrain"?
Imagination Nepster! :)
You only use the spinning arms here. The decorational elements are placed where the player cannot reach them anyways. Again "Pagoda St." is the prime example here (fire hydrants and exit tops).

Of course the decoratinal elements must be seen as decoratinal on the first sight and I think that in this example nobody is fooled.


The "invisible" option on the other hand I agree on culling as the only purpose of this is criminal energy.

"Only on terrain" you can put to good use and should be kept. Again criminal energy lies everywhere and at some point the people themselves must learn what is bad design. You cannot thread them all like little childeren and removing all the toys that could be dangerous. At some point they have to learn that the knive is useful and dangerous ;)


Offline ccexplore

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Re: [GENERAL] [DISCUSSION] Culling some options for objects
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2016, 09:46:40 PM »
Simon's points here seem to come down to what many discussions do (in particular, the terrain on steel one comes to mind) - whether the priority should be 100% clear indication of what any given piece is/does (impossible in practice - as mentioned by ccexplore; looking at a lone pixel, you cannot tell if it's part of an object or part of terrain, no matter what that object does - but while 100% is impossible, getting somewhat close to it is not), or whether allowing some deviation from this for aesthetic / thematic purposes is acceptable.

It's a fair point to bring up, but in the context of this discussion, a closer analogy would be if the level author is allowed individually set the same piece of steel graphics as steel or earth, so that it's not consistent from piece to piece.  To be fair, that's still theoretically possible today if they create their own style that purposely subverts expectations.

This is why I will continue to argue for a truth-mode display.  It is basically the same as if you made the user examine the level in the editor, but a more convenient form to access from in-game.  It is of course a good core design goal to avoid needing to use it as much as possible, but I don't believe that should be the sole means for it.

Offline mobius

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Re: [GENERAL] [DISCUSSION] Culling some options for objects
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2016, 12:07:55 AM »
Sometimes I use only-on-terrain for arrows to get a square shaped formation of arrows  but I don’t know if it’s necessary.

"Bad level design" -- this is a subjective thing and should not be talked about as if it isn't [as it almost ALWAYS is on this forum*] The game should not have limitations to prevent some type of level design just because some people don’t like it.

Well, it depends on the object animation. 
The fire-hydrant is well suited for this and it has an effect, so I would vote for usable for all objects.
But these can be treated all as fake though, as you use it for the animation and not for the effect.

one of the best examples.  Having the thing marked as fake would be better than only on terrain then it wouldn’t actually be a trap.


Every gadget should do one thing, all the time. Exits should not be used as deco, or to mark invisible entrances.
There is already a decorative gadget type, the no-effect object.

I point to great uses of the torches on exists being used as decoration in Dodo and Pieuw's levels. In this case it’s pretty obvious there’s no real exit here and it’s just a decoration. See below.

The hydrants, trees, trashcans in the Shadow tileset, they're absurdly confusing. I always forget what is earth and what is deco, and ask Icho every time. There is no single rule by which I can guess what's solid. I want such a rule.

As to the Shadow set; this may only be a matter of being unfamiliar with the graphic set because it's so rarely used. If it were used all the time this probably wouldn't be a problem. A person's first time playing the original game usually takes then a little while to figure out what’s a trap and what’s not.

Personally I don’t mind a little bit of decoration of this style; but a lot of it I don’t like. The shadow set I can see the view that this set goes overboard on the decoration.
This is why I personally don’t like the no-effect objects. Most of them I find only add clutter and inconsistency. While an object I’m already familiar with [like the torches on the exit] I already know what they do [nothing] and can recognize them.



*I’m frankly getting tired of hearing this bandied about by many people now.  There is the general consensus of what is popular and what is not. That’s all there is to it. I don’t like the idea of spreading suggestions to encourage level design and game design to more closely fit one’s own personal view.
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

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Offline Simon

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Re: [GENERAL] [DISCUSSION] Culling some options for objects
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2016, 02:00:11 AM »
With Icho, I've clarified IRL how I'm concerned with fake and invisible.

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This is why I personally don’t like the no-effect objects. Most of them I find only add clutter and inconsistency.

Yes! This is a recent trend in Lix planning, too. Animated should mean (non-solid and some effect on collision) instead of only (non-solid).

Non-animated no-effect gadgets should be avoided.

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[fire hydrant] one of the best examples. Having the thing marked as fake would be better than only on terrain then it wouldn’t actually be a trap.

The fake-gadget flag isn't needed at all. Indeed, since we recognize that Pieuw mocks a lamp by putting a trap here, the trap should remain deadly.

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As to the Shadow set; this may only be a matter of being unfamiliar with the graphic set because it's so rarely used. If it were used all the time this probably wouldn't be a problem.

I've played L2 since childhood. The shadow set confuses me still.

I've played Icho's shadow levels on several occasions at his place. The shadow set confuses me still.

Would you recommend even more exposure than this over fixing inconsistencies in the set?

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A person's first time playing the original game usually takes then a little while to figure out what’s a trap and what’s not.

Yes, because of a separate design error in Lemmings.

Triggered traps should animate while idle. They're non-solid, and dangerous. They must look as different from terrain as possible. Showing only one idling frame is a huge mistake by all Lemmings games.

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There is the general consensus of what is popular and what is not. That’s all there is to it. I don’t like the idea of spreading suggestions to encourage level design and game design to more closely fit one’s own personal view.

You're welcome to ignore the underlying principles of human cognition.

-- Simon
« Last Edit: March 15, 2016, 02:07:00 AM by Simon »

Offline ccexplore

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Re: [GENERAL] [DISCUSSION] Culling some options for objects
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2016, 02:00:15 AM »
The hydrants, trees, trashcans in the Shadow tileset, they're absurdly confusing. I always forget what is earth and what is deco, and ask Icho every time. There is no single rule by which I can guess what's solid. I want such a rule.

As to the Shadow set; this may only be a matter of being unfamiliar with the graphic set because it's so rarely used. If it were used all the time this probably wouldn't be a problem. A person's first time playing the original game usually takes then a little while to figure out what’s a trap and what’s not.

This is Lemmings 2's shadow set right?  Bringing that up is actually totally out of topic IMO; the confusion around decorations and terrain in that set very much exists even though there are no special options whatsoever like only-draw-on-terrain in Lemmings 2 (indeed, you can't even overlap anything in that game).  I wouldn't bother to say anything about it except that I do also think that set's decorations can be more confusing than other sets in L2, primarily because 1) they don't really stand out against normal terrain, and 2) the decorations are often placed in locations that are part of the main path in a solution, so it's not like some neat ceiling decoration that you can just ignore for level solving purposes.  But again, design issues with the set, nothing to do with draw-on-terrain-only or other special rendering options in NeoLemmix.

===========

It sounds like this is currently down to allowing an object to be displayed either way (use the option or don't use the option), versus having two distinct classes of objects, one of which always use draw-on-terrain-only and the other never.  For the second proposal, the implicit assumption appears to be that most objects are best used just one of the two ways, so for the few that works well for both ways, we can just make duplicates of them in the set.

Either way, it sounds like some form of draw-on-terrain-only is to stay.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: [GENERAL] [DISCUSSION] Culling some options for objects
« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2016, 02:09:22 AM »
Triggered traps should animate while idle. They're non-solid, and dangerous. They must look as different from terrain as possible. Showing only one idling frame is a huge mistake by all Lemmings games.

I feel like this deserves a separate topic.  I sort of understand the motivation behind such a proposal, but a bear trap looks ridiculous to animate while idle (except maybe with the subtlest of visual effects like some sort of glimmer).  And you don't get confused ever again once you interacted with one for the first time.

[edit: one additional thing worth pointing out:  by making triggered traps not animate, it actually provides an important functional distinction between them versus constant traps, given that the former cannot kill while in use while the latter is a constant kill.  Granted, it's not the only way such a distinction can be depicted.]
« Last Edit: March 15, 2016, 02:22:24 AM by ccexplore »

Offline namida

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Re: [GENERAL] [DISCUSSION] Culling some options for objects
« Reply #16 on: March 15, 2016, 04:42:16 AM »
Quote
"Bad level design" -- this is a subjective thing and should not be talked about as if it isn't [as it almost ALWAYS is on this forum*] The game should not have limitations to prevent some type of level design just because some people don’t like it.

*I’m frankly getting tired of hearing this bandied about by many people now.  There is the general consensus of what is popular and what is not. That’s all there is to it. I don’t like the idea of spreading suggestions to encourage level design and game design to more closely fit one’s own personal view.

"Bad level design" is perhaps a misleading term, "unfair level design" would be more accurate I guess. But I would really, really rather this didn't become one of those places where we get fussy over the exact wording used to refer to something.

Anyway - as I've said a few times, the fact that a feature could be used in ways that constitute bad level design is not, in my opinion, enough to justify removing / not adding something. It can be a contributory factor, but it isn't enough on its own.
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Offline ccexplore

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Re: [GENERAL] [DISCUSSION] Culling some options for objects
« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2016, 08:55:51 AM »
Animated should mean (non-solid and some effect on collision) instead of only (non-solid).

Lesson: if anyone ever visits Simon during Xmas, be sure not to touch the Xmas tree lights.  By his design preference, they should electrocute you to horrifying death. ;P /s

Offline Simon

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Re: [GENERAL] [DISCUSSION] Culling some options for objects
« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2016, 10:58:28 AM »
Agree how our result won't affect the L2 Shadow set. Yet L2 Shadow highlights the problems from no-effect. Fake turns yes-effect into no-effect.

I don't put up decorations during the holidays. :lix-evil: Misleading fluff!

namida and Icho are correct how we should keep valuable tools, even if they allow evil design. I'm undecided about only-on-terrain, I see its decorational value. But fake and invisible provide no extra value. Cull fake and invisible. :8():

Compare this with Lix: I get occasional questions how to put terrain behind water, Lix doesn't allow that. But nobody ever asks for fake or invisible.

-- Simon
« Last Edit: March 15, 2016, 11:03:50 AM by Simon »

Offline namida

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Re: [GENERAL] [DISCUSSION] Culling some options for objects
« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2016, 11:47:43 AM »
Alright, it does indeed seem we have a strong preference for removal of fake / invisible. I guess those things can go then.

I'm still not too sure about only on terrain  - even more so if fake is removed (unless fake becomes a side effect of "only on terrain" in the first place). I'm somewhat leaning towards culling it too, because outside of one-way walls (which have only-on-terrain as an inherent property anyway) there's no case where it's needed, and even decorative use of it is rare. On one hand, the code to support drawing it will mostly need to be there anyway, for one way walls to use too. On the other hand, it's basically a "poor man's invisible" in most cases, and it does still require some extra code (and more so if we want to make it work properly as an independant option - currently it will only even work with terrain that's marked as one-way capable) for relatively little gain.
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Offline Nepster

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Re: [GENERAL] [DISCUSSION] Culling some options for objects
« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2016, 06:10:14 PM »
I attached one of my levels recently made in the Shadow tileset, where the level becomes more honest by using Only-On-Terrain for some of the decoration objects (tree, trashcans and window). Personally I don't really care about the decoration and I only placed them there, because Only-On-Terrain is currently possible. Should the option Only-On-Terrain be removed, this would be no big loss and I will simply remove the decoration objects from this level.

Regarding the level "Pagoda St." IchoTolot mentioned (and perhaps he can attach the level or provide a link so that everyone can have a look at it), I fail to see why one has to use the continuous trap in the Marble style for this effect? Why not use the candles of the exit top? I am still not convinced, that Only-On-Terrain is required for anything else than no-effect decoration objects. As far as I can see, most arguments in favor of keeping Only-On-Terrain made by IchoTolot and möbius, focus on decoration objects anyway.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: [GENERAL] [DISCUSSION] Culling some options for objects
« Reply #21 on: March 15, 2016, 10:09:29 PM »
It seems that the best example of only-on-terrain with a non-decorative object remains the Amiga version of Fun 20/Mayhem 7, unfortunately I've yet to find a youtube video that actually shows it.  And to be fair, I feel even there it sounds better on paper than it actually looks.  Note that AFAIK that use of the acid objects in those levels are still deadly (at the very least, it doesn't affect level solutions to have them be deadly).  It is also placed away from any solution paths.

It remains the case that only-on-terrain will likely be a niche feature even for artistic purposes, not completely useless but certainly rarely needed.  Given its relative low usage, I guess if the few level authors who are affected can all find acceptable alternatives, then it's hard to argue for keeping it.  We are still sort of punishing those level authors for their past artistic creativity but I'll take their acceptance of an alternative decoration (or removal of decoration altogether) as them getting over the loss. :P  One can argue we are still stifling future artistic creativity, but given that this particular option hasn't given rise to much artistic effects thus far, it seems their artistic energy is probably better spent on other more flexible avenues like creating or updating/supplementing the graphics sets with new decorative options.

Agree how our result won't affect the L2 Shadow set. Yet L2 Shadow highlights the problems from no-effect.

I suppose you can phrase it that particular way.  Yet if we look at the problematic decorative objects in L2 shadow:
   a) If we turn them into deadly (or otherwise some sort of effect) objects but leave them unanimated by default, they still don't stand out visually from terrain.  The best that can be said is that maybe you'll remember them better for future due to the negative reinforcement after sending a lemming to it.
   b) If we leave them decorative but have them animated by default, this is enough on its own to make them stand out and to let you know that they aren't terrain.  It is true that you can't tell for sure they have no effect until you send a lemming to it and see what happens.
   c) If we add an effect to them and have them animated by default, you are really still in case B, unless the game only offers one kind of effect.  Otherwise, you still can't tell what the effect is (kill one? kill all? exit? spring? teleport?) without testing it with a lemming.

So I'm not really seeing a completely solved issue with any of the options above.  If you only care about partially solving it, adding animation actually seems to be more helpful than giving an effect to the object.

[edit: if the objection is specifically about turning a functional object fake for decorative purposes, that point I can see more merit for, though that's not really the way I see L2's shadow set as problematic--the game is actually quite consistent in treating which pieces in the set are decorative vs terrain, just that visually you can't really tell which is which.  Generally speaking, if a decoration is far away from the solution paths, you probably don't need to make it fake.]

Fake turns yes-effect into no-effect

Sure, but I imagine almost everyone will agree that if an option exists to change the effect of any object to anything, it'd be just as bad to turn an exit into a constant trap, or a teleport into a spring, etc.  Because doing so purposely introduces a functional inconsistency--not specifically because of no-effect per se.

I don't put up decorations during the holidays.

That's fine and feel free to do so when you make graphics sets.  I just expect that other people may want to create a graphics set like Holiday Lemmings with its purely decorative Christmas lights, and I don't feel particularly convinced at this point that I should be discouraging them.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2016, 10:18:05 PM by ccexplore »

Offline Simon

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Re: [GENERAL] [DISCUSSION] Culling some options for objects
« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2016, 01:12:06 PM »
L2 shadow: Lamppost, trashcan, tree = normal earth. Moon as no-effect is probably OK, because it lacks sharp outline.

Culling fake and invis: Good long-term decision. What happens with fake hatch-marking pickups? Automatic hatch marking planned, or postpone this issue?

No time for detailed reply >_>

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Offline namida

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Re: [GENERAL] [DISCUSSION] Culling some options for objects
« Reply #23 on: March 16, 2016, 01:22:22 PM »
Quote
What happens with fake hatch-marking pickups? Automatic hatch marking planned, or postpone this issue?

They could be overlaid on steel to make their trigger area inaccessible. Some form of proper marking is desired, but it seems that while plenty of people want it, no one wants to suggest any ideas on how to best handle it; and I myself am not entirely sure on the best way either. Depending on the complexity of the chosen method, it's something I wouldn't mind trying to get in for the next release, even though fake / invisible probably won't be removed until (at least) V1.45n. (The reasoning being the extremely short notice otherwise; all other features destined for removal in V1.44n have, if not outright been stated as being removed, at least been under consideration for removal for a while now.)
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Offline Nepster

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Re: [GENERAL] [DISCUSSION] Culling some options for objects
« Reply #24 on: March 16, 2016, 05:11:30 PM »
It seems that the best example of only-on-terrain with a non-decorative object remains the Amiga version of Fun 20/Mayhem 7...
This sentence should be:
"It seems that the best example of only-on-terrain with a non-decorative object, that cannot be replicated by only-on-terrain with a decorative object, remains the Amiga version of Fun 20/Mayhem 7..."
Given that we discuss culling Only-On-Terrain completely, this feels like an important distinction to make.

It remains the case that only-on-terrain will likely be a niche feature even for artistic purposes, not completely useless but certainly rarely needed.  Given its relative low usage, I guess if the few level authors who are affected can all find acceptable alternatives, then it's hard to argue for keeping it.
Low usage should be only one contributing factor in the decision to remove a feature. Otherwise there are lots of other stuff like steams in Lix that need to be culled as well.
I see the low usage mainly in the fact, that the L1 tilesets have almost no pure decoration objects apart from exit tops. So there was almost no opportunity to properly use this option. The main question that I am asking myself right now is: Do we encourage or at least expect that future graphic style designers put purely decorative objects in their styles? If yes, then Only-On-Terrain might see much more use in the future. If no, then Only-On-Terrain might not be worth keeping.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: [GENERAL] [DISCUSSION] Culling some options for objects
« Reply #25 on: March 16, 2016, 09:08:46 PM »
It's more that when weighing pros against cons, low usage means at least you have one less on the "con" side, that is, "damage" to existing levels is low.

It is a fair point that if future styles have more decorative elements, there might be some bump in only-on-terrain usage, but I still feel like most decorative elements probably will not need it?  I'll admit not being particularly artistic, I could be quite off in that assessment.

------

About exit tops (not fully relevant to the topic, but...):  while it's impossible to know definitively without actually talking to the original DMA people, it's quite likely the only reason they exist is as a memory/disk space saving measure.  Because most parts of the exit objects are not animated and their compression algorithm isn't that smart, it would take less storage to split the single object up into two parts, one object containing all the static stuff that can then only take one frame to represent, and a second object containing just the smaller portions that are animated and required storing multiple frames.

A good example supporting this is the exit in the red-bricks style of ONML.  The animated part is not the top but actually the middle (specifically the spinning columns on the left and right), the static part actually contains both the top and the bottom.

I also recall in ONML styles there are other non-exit objects that are split in a similar fashion (ie. animated and non-animated parts), for example I think the lizard trap in the rock style.

So it's fair to say that with the exception of Holiday Lemmings (for which I believe we have confirmation from DMA people that it was an explicit design choice to have no deadly objects), there are no objects designed solely for decorative purposes in L1 and ONML levels.  Still, I suppose it doesn't really mean much beyond tradition/history.

Offline namida

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Re: [GENERAL] [DISCUSSION] Culling some options for objects
« Reply #26 on: April 10, 2016, 07:09:47 PM »
After further discussion, including on IRC and via private messages, and actually looking at some of the usage cases, I'm deciding against culling any of these options.

Most of the arguments for culling them are "they can be used for unfair design". This isn't really a valid argument, because so can many other things - removing these options won't stop someone from using No Overwrite to hide an exit or a trap in terrain. Or, not using No Overwrite then hiding terrain behind an object. Or just making a 99 builder level that requires using all of them - not nessecerially unfair, but probably worse in terms of bad level design. The correct response to bad design is not cull the option that made it possible, and in the process punish other designers who use it more validly. The correct response is to advise against it, and if an author continues to refuse to not design bad levels, don't play their content. To compare to the situation with gimmicks - they had the very strong argument of making the code very complicated. On the other hand, these have no such argument - even Only On Terrain, which is at least a little bit complicated (but also probably has the most examples of good usage), is still quite simple. Fake and Invisible are a matter of "don't write the trigger area" or "don't actually draw the object".

The arguments for keeping them are much more compelling. Both the examples where they're used well (PimoLems or Orig Mayhem 7 for only-on-terrain (and in many cases these objects should be using Fake as well), Smooth 10 / Bumpy 12 for Invisible), and the fact that even if the options were to be removed, there are ways around it - custom (or more likely, modified) graphic sets for example, which would in turn complicate things when a system of allowing multiple graphic sets in a single level is implemented, and thus there ends up being way more duplicated stuff to clean up (already there's some, due to the various Epic tilesets / other variant sets, and the Snow / Xmas sets having a lot duplicated between them) - a system which, in itself, would only make it even easier to use these workaround options.

So. Final answer; these options are staying. If you'd rather not have them, you're more than welcome to not use then and not play any levels that do (EDIT: or, indeed, grab a copy of the source code and make your own version that ignores these options). I realise some people will want to further express their opinion on this subject, so I'll leave the topic open for now, but be aware it's not very likely it'll change anything at this point.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2016, 07:16:01 PM by namida »
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Offline Simon

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Re: [GENERAL] [DISCUSSION] Culling some options for objects
« Reply #27 on: April 10, 2016, 07:32:17 PM »
Quote
Most of the arguments for culling them are "they can be used for unfair design".

No.

From 2 hours ago in IRC:
<SimonN> the point is not whether it allows bad design
<SimonN> the point is that fake & invis both flat-out invite bad design


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« Last Edit: April 10, 2016, 07:38:15 PM by Simon »