Quote from: Proxima on February 27, 2026, 08:21:32 PMThere are a couple of axioms I follow:

* The designer is the worst at assigning difficulty to their own levels, because you cannot have the experience of solving it from a fresh start. This doesn't mean you should treat testers' words as gospel (especially as they can and will disagree with each other), but it does mean that testers' opinions should carry more weight than yours.

* Almost all usermade content is harder than the original games, and a different kind of difficulty. This is partly because NeoLemmix and Lix remove most of the execution difficulty, and have quality of life tools that allow designers to realise more complex puzzle ideas than were possible previously; it's also because when we played Lemmings for the first time, we were still learning what the skills do and how they interact, whereas almost all usermade content is aimed at players who are already familiar with the game.

* Different people will find different things difficult, and that is especially true in a puzzle game, where so much depends on how quickly you happen to hit the correct insight or get onto a good way of thinking about a level.

* It doesn't matter very much whether there is a strict difficulty curve. (For one thing, there is no reason why a pack has to have difficulty ranks at all; a pack that is all easy, or all medium, or all hard will be enjoyed by players at that level. But since it sounds like you want to make a pack with progression, I'll focus on that.) As far as possible, you want to avoid howlers like the original game putting the easy "Highland Fling" in the last rank, or (worse) a very hard level sticking out in the easy rank. But no-one will mind very much if, say, Tricky 14 of your pack is a little easier than Tricky 13. Occasional breather levels can be good to encourage the player to keep going.

Yeah I am playing RetroLemmini, which is a lot closer to the original, I haven't really liked playing with too many new features aside from stuff like framestepping, although I am aware you can turn these off in NeoLemmix and some of the new skills etc seem great.

That's a good point in that most people who use custom user packs obviously know more about Lemmings, but part of the reason I'm doing this is that I hope to teach my almost 4 year old nephew about the game of lemmings at some point, and I have many friends that played it when they were kids and haven't played since the 90s and said they'd like to play it again, and it would be nice to make easy levels for them to get familiar with it again. Also I really like just the art aspect of it and being creative.

There are a couple of axioms I follow:

* The designer is the worst at assigning difficulty to their own levels, because you cannot have the experience of solving it from a fresh start. This doesn't mean you should treat testers' words as gospel (especially as they can and will disagree with each other), but it does mean that testers' opinions should carry more weight than yours.

* Almost all usermade content is harder than the original games, and a different kind of difficulty. This is partly because NeoLemmix and Lix remove most of the execution difficulty, and have quality of life tools that allow designers to realise more complex puzzle ideas than were possible previously; it's also because when we played Lemmings for the first time, we were still learning what the skills do and how they interact, whereas almost all usermade content is aimed at players who are already familiar with the game.

* Different people will find different things difficult, and that is especially true in a puzzle game, where so much depends on how quickly you happen to hit the correct insight or get onto a good way of thinking about a level.

* It doesn't matter very much whether there is a strict difficulty curve. (For one thing, there is no reason why a pack has to have difficulty ranks at all; a pack that is all easy, or all medium, or all hard will be enjoyed by players at that level. But since it sounds like you want to make a pack with progression, I'll focus on that.) As far as possible, you want to avoid howlers like the original game putting the easy "Highland Fling" in the last rank, or (worse) a very hard level sticking out in the easy rank. But no-one will mind very much if, say, Tricky 14 of your pack is a little easier than Tricky 13. Occasional breather levels can be good to encourage the player to keep going.

I'm currently making a pack of 40 levels with 8 levels in each difficulty. However I am finding categorising them a bit of a challenge especially because a lot of levels which I initially think seem easy are actually pretty hard. How do you decide which levels will go where? Do you go by how hard they are compared with the original lemmings game?

I have cleared the whole MobiLems 2025 pack ! Joining my replays.

This was a great ride all along, with some very interesting levels like The Pit of Despair, Is So Simple (reference to Dolly Dimple ?), Tres Humbres, Walk The Plank, If A Lemming Falls, and many many more.

There were many hard ones, especially at the end (I'm looking at you Zombies levels...), but it helped me a lot honing my solving skills and now I'm more confident to tackle harder packs in the future.

I definitely understand why this pack is so well rated and gladly appreciated to be able to play it on NeoLemmix. Thank you for your work Mobius, hope to see you around the forum soon !

Now I'm left with that Outtakes rank that does not appear in the game. Coming to think of it, I guess those must just be the levels that Mobius took out when he made the 2025 update mentionned earlier, so he left them out of the pack deliberately ?

Here's my attempt to make exits using colors from the entrance. Wood exit.

The biggest difference I see between the digger-blocker and the basher-blocker interaction is that the digger does not get canceled, whereas the basher gets canceled by the blocker. This makes a huge difference.

Also the digger case always ends up with the same scenario of the digger turning direction, whereas the basher case may end up with all possible outcomes depending on when/where the blocker is set. This is certainly why most people tend to dislike it : the game is all about actions and their consequences, so when very similar looking actions result in very different consequences, players may get upset.

Oh well, sorry to derail Pieuw's thread, we were just searching for another way to solve The Strange Relics of Lemnos' talisman.

Quote from: JawaJuice on February 27, 2026, 02:59:28 PMYeah, that's true. Unlike the basher, it's not visually obvious that the digger has changed directions, but you're right, he has. I suppose it does make sense then! It's odd then that no-one has an issue with the digger-blocker trick, but everyone dislikes basher-blocker.

For starters, it's simply not true that no-one has an issue with digger-blocker turnaround; this mechanic has provoked discussion before, and some have felt it to be unfair.

But more importantly (in my view), there is a huge difference between the two mechanics. If a digger and a blocker overlap, there's no reason why the digger would not be able to remove the terrain under the blocker, freeing him. That part isn't in question; what is in question is whether the digger should turn -- and that he should turn is implied as a special case of "blockers can turn any lemming". With the basher-blocker trick, it's obvious that the basher should turn, and that isn't in question; what is in question is whether the basher should also be able to free the blocker at the same time. And that is not easily answerable as a special case of any general mechanic.

One reason why many of us (including me) dislike the mechanic and consider it more of a bug is that it is very precise, and that makes it hard for new players to discover, which means any level relying on it is potentially unfair.

In addition, this is a mechanic that was never in the original games, whereas digger-blocker turnaround is in most (maybe all?) versions of original Lemmings. It was never necessary for solving the original levels, but it was always possible, and was discovered during challenges (in particular, the first solution to maximum saved on Wild 15).

Quote from: JawaJuice on February 27, 2026, 02:59:28 PM

Quote from: Pieuw on February 27, 2026, 01:47:11 PMRegarding the basher/blocker trick, doesn't it work similarly to the digger/blocker one? The blocker being canceled right away, making the worker turn around immediately.

Yeah, that's true. Unlike the basher, it's not visually obvious that the digger has changed directions, but you're right, he has. I suppose it does make sense then! It's odd then that no-one has an issue with the digger-blocker trick, but everyone dislikes basher-blocker.

I would say the main gripe here is that the basher-blocker behavior is pixel precise and a real hassel to reproduce and it is not that logical that the basher removes terrain under the blocker while he should already be turned (or the blocker turns the basher when he should already be freed).

Digger-blocker on the other hand is mechanically consistent and not very precise. Blocker has been placed down -> digger is inside the blockers trigger and gets turned if he is looking in the other direction -> digger releases blocker. Only the visual confirmation is missing as you already mentioned. But otherwise it follows the rule that the blocker turns everything facing the other way in its designated area.
And here the basher-blocker confusion is actually resolved! If you place the blocker right when the digger digs further the blocker gets instantly released and does not turn the digger in the same frame as I recall!

Quote from: Pieuw on February 27, 2026, 01:47:11 PMRegarding the basher/blocker trick, doesn't it work similarly to the digger/blocker one? The blocker being canceled right away, making the worker turn around immediately.

Yeah, that's true. Unlike the basher, it's not visually obvious that the digger has changed directions, but you're right, he has. I suppose it does make sense then! It's odd then that no-one has an issue with the digger-blocker trick, but everyone dislikes basher-blocker.

Thank you Guigui! I will take a look at those as soon as possible, but I'll be busy this weekend.

Regarding the basher/blocker trick, doesn't it work similarly to the digger/blocker one? The blocker being canceled right away, making the worker turn around immediately.

You both have the right general idea about Lemnos but there's no need for any precision trick like this one. This is true for all the others talismans too