Author Topic: custom levels for Lemmings 2 thread  (Read 30123 times)

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Offline ccexplore

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Re: custom levels for Lemmings 2 thread
« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2009, 02:38:46 pm »
Ok, I guess the best way to test this editor is to go through the entire design process of making one level (which is attached, btw, Medieval tribe).

Not sure if I missed something easy, but my gold solution has some fairly unforgiving (pixel precision-wise) parts, which really pissed turned me off at the end.  The puzzle concept itself was really good though.  Seems like it would've been better if:

Quote from: Spoiler
You're given 1 archer, 2 jumpers instead of 2 archers 1 jumper.
 

Offline ccexplore

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Re: custom levels for Lemmings 2 thread
« Reply #16 on: November 02, 2009, 02:44:21 pm »
Can anyone get this level to work?  My DOSBOX locked up when I ran it.

Did your copy of L2 ever work before (if not, you might have a bad copy).  Also, did you remember to run L2-fix instead of just L2?

Anyway, the level works fine for me, and I enjoyed it.  It wasn't too hard but it does require a little thought, and there are no horrible precision or tedium involved, which I greatly appreciate after certain other levels......  :P

But I should note that I left some skills unused (see spoiler).  Maybe that's expected but just in case there's some sort of backroute?

Quote from: Spoiler
leftover: 1 roper, 1 floater
 

Online Pooty

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Re: custom levels for Lemmings 2 thread
« Reply #17 on: November 02, 2009, 04:19:24 pm »
Ok, I guess the best way to test this editor is to go through the entire design process of making one level (which is attached, btw, Medieval tribe).

Not sure if I missed something easy, but my gold solution has some fairly unforgiving (pixel precision-wise) parts, which really pissed turned me off at the end.  The puzzle concept itself was really good though.  Seems like it would've been better if:

Quote from: Spoiler
You're given 1 archer, 2 jumpers instead of 2 archers 1 jumper.
 

I came up with a less-unforgiving solution to the level (still uses all available skills, mind you).

Quote from: Spoiler
First lemming becomes a Rock Climber, and jumps onto the little platform below. He fires an arrow to form the bridge, then becomes an attractor. All the other lemmings will bunch up, and as the last lemming arrives, use a bomber. Free the attractor with an archer, lend the bomber the swimming skill, and you're done!
SEGA Master System version
100% on 110/120 levels (92%). Other levels [Lemmings lost]:
Fun 03 [3], 06 [2], 18 [5]   
Taxing 19 [5], 27 [1], 28 [3]
Tricky 15 [5], 17 [2]
Mayhem 19 [7], 26 [10]

Offline geoo

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Re: custom levels for Lemmings 2 thread
« Reply #18 on: November 02, 2009, 05:29:24 pm »
Not sure if I missed something easy, but my gold solution has some fairly unforgiving (pixel precision-wise) parts, which really pissed turned me off at the end.  The puzzle concept itself was really good though.  Seems like it would've been better if:

Quote from: Spoiler
You're given 1 archer, 2 jumpers instead of 2 archers 1 jumper.
 
Yep, you did. I hoped I had eliminated all solutions of that kind, but it seems you still found a way to cram the lemmings together and be fast enough with the archer. I still don't see how you actually did that, separating the climber from the attracted rest. I chose the second archer as a useless yet possibly seemingly useful skill, but I guess it turned out to be of too much use. Should have used a filler or something instead.
The intended solution is very easy to execute, actually. (The solution described by Pooty is my intended solution).

Quote
It's still good enough for skipping like half the level, and it suggests there's a chance the level is solvable w/o any rock climbers (maybe I'll try that later tonight...)
I actually don't see where one would actually need rock climbers in the first place. I assigned one in my original solution, the standard route (I assume), but it was an entirely pointless assignment.

And in regards to tediousness, be glad it didn't feature builders instead of ropers. I actually didn't find it tedious at all, though some parts had a bit of a feal of 'filler'.

And yes, I think 60 ropers is a perfect number. In the 3 serious tries I had, I needed 60, 61 and 59 respectively (the second one failing, obviously). I can indeed be glad you didn't lower it to 50...

Offline weirdybeardy

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Re: custom levels for Lemmings 2 thread
« Reply #19 on: November 02, 2009, 05:59:07 pm »
It's interesting that the 8x16 tile grid hasn't done away with pixel-perfect solutions, but rather manifested them differently.  :P

Offline Clam

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Re: custom levels for Lemmings 2 thread
« Reply #20 on: November 02, 2009, 08:24:08 pm »
I actually don't see where one would actually need rock climbers in the first place. I assigned one in my original solution, the standard route (I assume), but it was an entirely pointless assignment.

The rock climbers are there in case you want them, not because you need them. They're just a convenient way of isolating a lemming.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: custom levels for Lemmings 2 thread
« Reply #21 on: November 02, 2009, 09:23:36 pm »
I hoped I had eliminated all solutions of that kind, but it seems you still found a way to cram the lemmings together and be fast enough with the archer. I still don't see how you actually did that, separating the climber from the attracted rest.

I didn't really separate the climber the way you imagined:

[edit: I just realize I missed a screenshot or two, so no wonder you're a little confused from the screenshots (though in my defense, it's hard to make screenshots when you're in the middle of worrying about moves that require pixel precision).  Anyway, the spoiler text should explain my method pretty clearly]

Quote from: Spoiler
The climber is simply assigned from the right edge of the attractor crowd (I assign the 3rd lemming out the attractor), and he stays with the rest of the crowd until the climbing.  The real trick (and real hell) in my solution is how to "re-integrate" the attractor back into the crowd, which I thought the screenshots explain but I guess not well.  I assigned the attractor an archer to get the crowd moving, then have him wait to shoot an arrow at a near-vertical angle so that the arrow will fall down vertical just a little in front of him.  This prevents him from going all the way to the tower to turn around.  I need to time it very precisely though so that the arrow lands immediately just after the crowd is entirely left of where the arrow would land, so that they don't get trapped by it.  (In the meanwhile, I also have to remember to jump the climber before he falls off the tower!) Some precision with the bomber is also needed to ensure everyone gets launched onto/over the key platform.

I'm not going to look at Pooty's solution just now, but I'm extremely surprised about what you say regarding "all solutions of that kind".  Are you merely referring to what you call "separating the climber", or are you actually talking about the latter part that gets the majority of lemmings over to the exit?  Because I would've thought the latter part would match your intended solution at least in concept.

I actually don't see where one would actually need rock climbers in the first place.

Hmm, come to think of it, you probably don't need it.  But it's good insurance against the possibility of lemmings from the crowd leaking out at bad times.  Given that there is no replay feature in the game, you do as much as you can to avoid accidents, however remote the chances might actually be. ;)  Especially on a somewhat tedious long level. ;P

Offline geoo

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Re: custom levels for Lemmings 2 thread
« Reply #22 on: November 02, 2009, 10:05:31 pm »
Yeah, I know the rock climbers are there merely for convenience, but I was wondering why you'd think the might possibly be essential, as my solution was pretty fool-proof without them (just expensive on ropers). It seems that the wall-crawl solutions require them in some way though (though you implied they might not?).

With "all solutions of that kind" I mean the way of condensing the crowd. (Below possible, but unlikely spoiler)
Quote
Of course you'd have to use the attractor for it, but my solution does it in a somewhat different way.
If you want to try, you can replace one of the archers with a filler. I hope this should not allow this backroute.
For some reason I also thought that handling it like this would make the arrow to prevent the crowd from falling into the water be a bit too late, but I don't know what made me think so, as the timing is pretty similar in that regard.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: custom levels for Lemmings 2 thread
« Reply #23 on: November 02, 2009, 10:39:16 pm »
It seems that the wall-crawl solutions require them in some way though (though you implied they might not?).

I did have something in mind, but now that I think of it, it really ends up being less of a wall-crawling solution than a "normal" solution, though there's still wall-crawling and you should end up with a little less roping (I think) than a solution w/o the wall-crawling.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: custom levels for Lemmings 2 thread
« Reply #24 on: November 03, 2009, 01:33:55 am »
(Below possible, but unlikely spoiler)

Finally figure out your intended solution.  Not a spoiler but definitely a hint steering me in the right direction, but it's still amazing how long it took before I realized how the attractor is to be used. :XD: Very nice! :thumbsup:

Offline ccexplore

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Re: custom levels for Lemmings 2 thread
« Reply #25 on: November 03, 2009, 02:46:23 am »
It seems that the wall-crawl solutions require them in some way though (though you implied they might not?).

I did have something in mind, but now that I think of it, it really ends up being less of a wall-crawling solution than a "normal" solution, though there's still wall-crawling and you should end up with a little less roping (I think) than a solution w/o the wall-crawling.

Don't know what I was thinking, but I'm 99% sure now that you can definitely do the wall-crawling thing without rock climbers, using about 5 ropers and 6 bombers to get past the first half of the level (ie. similar to where I've gotten in the solution I've presented, only actually a little higher).  I don't have an actual confirmation yet only because I haven't quite worked out exactly and reliably how to shoot the rope to the right for the wall-crawling effect, and I need a break.

Of course, it's sort of a moot point since ClamSpammer's going to add more steel to the level.

Offline weirdybeardy

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Re: custom levels for Lemmings 2 thread
« Reply #26 on: November 03, 2009, 10:05:35 pm »
I humbly present new versions of my Highland and Circus levels, and also presenting my new Sports level. They might not be the most challenging levels ever, but hopefully you won't find them too unappealing. Please play them, test them, then throw them back and tell me what's wrong with them.  :)

Offline ccexplore

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Re: custom levels for Lemmings 2 thread
« Reply #27 on: November 04, 2009, 12:30:59 pm »
Pretty decent levels. :thumbsup: Due to time, I'll have to look at the Sports one a little later.  I've attached my solutions for the other two, although I fear both may be backroutes, though fortunately not to the point of trivializing the levels I think.  (And remember, I even managed to backroute geoo's level, so it really doesn't say anything about the quality of the levels or your level design abilities. :P)  More please! 8)

Offline ccexplore

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Re: custom levels for Lemmings 2 thread
« Reply #28 on: November 07, 2009, 11:57:40 am »
Due to time, I'll have to look at the Sports one a little later.

Finally got gold on it!  The Sports level is definitely your best level to date IMO, and amongst one of the best ones for Lemmings 2 custom levels. :thumbsup: 8)  For once, the solution I come up with is something I'm reasonably sure is not a backroute.  That's not to say the level might not have other solutions (including possibly solutions that save all lemmings, though I have little to go on at the moment), but this time around I think the backroutes, if any, would likely be harder than the intended solution (ie. pixel precision, or odd tricks like wall crawling).  Also, the level solution feels like it's something one would expect in the real Lemmings 2 game (other than maybe the fact that any level in the official Lemmings 2 game would likely have been made easier, which of course I don't care for).

This also brings up a point about gold: since the game doesn't show you the max number of lemmings you can lose, perhaps it's best to mention that number whenever we post custom Lemmings 2 levels here, to save people time from having to run some other program like PCL2STAT to find out that number.

=================

It's strange how activity on this thread seems to have evaporated compared with last week.  Is it just that it takes time to create levels, or have people moved on to other things already? :o  :-\  I suppose there's also L++, which I should give a try sometime soon, especially given the current lull in other topics.

Offline weirdybeardy

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Re: custom levels for Lemmings 2 thread
« Reply #29 on: November 07, 2009, 01:08:34 pm »
Quote
It's strange how activity on this thread seems to have evaporated compared with last week.  Is it just that it takes time to create levels, or have people moved on to other things already?     I suppose there's also L++, which I should give a try sometime soon, especially given the current lull in other topics.

It's funny, I was just logging on today to bump this thread 'cos I was wondering if it had dried up completely - but I'm glad to see that it hasn't. Thanks so much for getting round to playing the level. I'm glad you like it!  :thumbsup: I was thinking to myself "This is probably the best level I'll make for a while, so I hope it doesn't fall flat on its face". The interesting thing is, the build took a relatively short amount of time (due to the excellent editor/s out there right now), but it was the playtesting and fine-tuning that took a while.

I took a couple of steps back from this discussion 'cos I wanted to see if the Lemmings 2 custom level thread could sustain itself without an enthusiast like me popping up every five seconds.  :P Seems to have gone quiet though. Shame.

Thanks again!  8) Are you working on any new levels at the moment? I think I've got at least a couple more in my head, bursting to get out. I want to try a Space level, and maybe a Polar level...

Quote
Also, the level solution feels like it's something one would expect in the real Lemmings 2 game (other than maybe the fact that any level in the official Lemmings 2 game would likely have been made easier, which of course I don't care for).

^This is my favourite thing you said.  :D