custom levels for Lemmings 2 thread

[geoo]

Split the level designing post from here into this topic, originally started by ccexplore.

All levels (to my knowledge, including multiple versions of each, with the one with the biggest number being the most recent one) from this topic as of 2013-06-12 are included in the following archive.
For discussion and solutions read the rest of the topic.

[Clam]

...although I must ask why I can't find levels when I press s to save them.

Did you read GP's post? There should be a file called LEVEL___.DAT in the same folder as the editor.

All right, here's my first attempt at a custom level. (Actually, I tell a lie. It's the second, the first turned out awful. And by awful I mean "has an unavoidable backroute that totally defeats the purpose of the level". Hopefully this one doesn't turn out the same way...) The attached file replaces level 1 of the Egyptian tribe. Consider it an opportunity to experiment with the roper mechanics - which I've found to be decidedly ropey.

[Pooty]

Without even thinking, I wound up putting an attractor in my test level in classic style.  The result?  Well...not quite what you expected, though it still sorta works......

You're right, it's definitely not what I expected. I burst with laughter when I tried it out.

It mostly works, but I noticed that the lemmings will eventually leave the attractor's area of effect.

...although I must ask why I can't find levels when I press s to save them.

All right, here's my first attempt at a custom level. (Actually, I tell a lie. It's the second, the first turned out awful. And by awful I mean "has an unavoidable backroute that totally defeats the purpose of the level". Hopefully this one doesn't turn out the same way...) The attached file replaces level 1 of the Egyptian tribe. Consider it an opportunity to experiment with the roper mechanics - which I've found to be decidedly ropey.

Har har har.

I did try the level, though. I can't beat it yet, but I do want to eventually.

[weirdybeardy]

@Clam Spammer: "Wall Crawler" is great! Before I even started playing it I was appreciating the design. You seem to have a knack for building levels that look well-put together, with just the right balance of style and functionality. In contrast my levels seem to be a bit "busy"... I tend to get carried away when I'm "decorating" a level. I guess minimalism has its place, and sometimes less is more. 

Excellent Egyptian level.  More please! 

[Minim]

Excellent Egyptian level.  More please! 

Now remember... Be careful not to force them.

BTW, I may be able to get the editor as well. I read very carefully around this topic and found the post about which users are granted to get the editor. I sent a PM to GuyPerfect and now I can stop rambling (hopefully!).

Has anyone seen my level "Perfect for balloons" yet? This level highly reflects on Lemmings 2. It's in the Lemmix level pack topic. See this post for the opportunity to get it (Not sure what level pack this is, so grab them all while you can ). This level highly reflects on how much I liked Lemmings 2 in the past.

[weirdybeardy]

What about me? )-: (-:

I make a particular effort to be artistic while making puzzles that hopefully require a little thought. I know! Maybe you just missed the levels I posted earlier! (-:

Beach - The Clam Spammer
Cavelem - Spelunk 'n' Dunk
Classic - Always the Long Route

Apart from you, obviously.  Your levels were brilliant (my favourite is Spelunk 'n' Dunk), and your YouTube vids are what gave me the inspiration to dabble in custom L2 in the first place. So there!  I was so happy with my "pretty" Circus level that I completely missed the fact that it had a obvious backroute...

Bearing in mind the needs of the program and the people using it, I'm strongly considering doing the project over in Java. I'd like to hear what's on you guys' minds. Oh yeah, and don't try the whole "But you're almost done with this one!" argument. There's only a sliver of a chance that the project in its current iteration will ever see another build. (-:

But you're almost done with this one!

Sorry, just getting that out of the way, so other people don't have to. 

[Dullstar]

Can anyone get this level to work?  My DOSBOX locked up when I ran it.

[Pooty]

Can anyone get this level to work?  My DOSBOX locked up when I ran it.

Yep, I was able to load it, play it, and beat it using everything except the Platformer.

[Clam]

@Clam Spammer: "Wall Crawler" is great! Before I even started playing it I was appreciating the design. You seem to have a knack for building levels that look well-put together, with just the right balance of style and functionality.

I really liked ClamSpammer's level, requiring to set up some sort of roper web to get up. Due to making a few mistakes every now and then, I ended up having exactly no ropers left when I solved the level.

Thanks guys. I'm thinking of building a full Egyptian tribe like I did for L3 (not with 30 levels of course), but I'm kinda busy for the next week so you won't see much progress in the meantime.

And (@geoo) consider yourself lucky I decided to add another 10 ropers at the last moment.

Ok, I guess the best way to test this editor is to go through the entire design process of making one level (which is attached, btw, Medieval tribe).

Very clever, but for whatever reason, I didn't find it greatly fun to play. Probably my fault, I tend to have a rather negative attitude when it comes to solving levels. (especially when I try the wrong thing to start with...)

Can anyone get this level to work?  My DOSBOX locked up when I ran it.

Works fine for me.

[ccexplore]

Ok, I guess the best way to test this editor is to go through the entire design process of making one level (which is attached, btw, Medieval tribe).

Very clever, but for whatever reason, I didn't find it greatly fun to play.<snip>

Just so you know, I felt the same about your level. Very well put together visually, but my very first thought regarding solving it is something like "omg most tedious level ever".  Enough that I decided to take a massive shortcut with the bottom half of the level.  And that in turn inspired me to spend some time last night trying for a "least roper" solution, but found myself somewhat defeated by the steel lining the bottom of the exit room, so ultimately I didn't get me any spectacular results, although it does suggest that the level might well be gold-solvable with as few as 20 ropers or less (plus other skills of course).

I'm at a public computer at the moment, but when I'm back later, I'll attach some screenshots of my solution.  I'd still like to work up a custom level myself of course so I might end up doing that instead.  That is, if I can resist playing other people's levels......

[Clam]

[...] the level might well be gold-solvable with as few as 20 ropers or less (plus other skills of course).

Now you mention that, I think 10 ropers would be a more reasonable target. I did consider the possibility of "crawling" backroutes - heck, the title and decorations even suggest it - but I didn't expect anyone to be so proficient at it right away. (By the way, I found that you can get lemmings to climb up the wall using just 2 ropers and a bomber.) And I've noticed that the water isn't greatly effective either - lemmings can enter through the floor without drowning and climb out the side safely, and the water just below the exit does nothing at all. I guess I'll just have to add more steel

Like one level I made for Lemmix a while ago, this is the type of level that I wouldn't like to play if I hadn't designed it myself, but I liked the concept so much that I just had to go and build it.

[ccexplore]

I didn't expect anyone to be so proficient at it right away.

Glad to have proved you wrong then, ye of little faith.

(By the way, I found that you can get lemmings to climb up the wall using just 2 ropers and a bomber.)

Better yet, just 1 roper and 1 bomber suffice.  There is one limitation of note though when it comes to using a crawling backroute:

Climbers/rock climbers don't crawl when they're stuck, unfortunately.

It's still good enough for skipping like half the level, and it suggests there's a chance the level is solvable w/o any rock climbers (maybe I'll try that later tonight...)

[edit:  attached screenshots of my first successful gold solution for ClamSpammer's level.]

[Clam]

fine, go ahead and rip my level to pieces, I don't mind...

The solution is more steel. That's about all there is to it. Until we discover a steel glitch of course

I'll put up a new version sometime, but I'll probably make another new level first (and like I said, not within the next week or so). In the meantime I'll leave this as a warning to all L2 level designers.

[ccexplore]

To be fair, I kinda stumbled upon the ultraefficient 1-bomeber-1-roper trick by accident, while in the middle of an attempt to do the first part the real way.  (I know about the wall crawling, but definitely didn't expect such a simple setup for it exists.)  Of course, as soon as I noticed the trick, I soon lost what little motivation I've left to follow thru the tedium of getting up the first part.   (Although note that I did get at least more than halfway up the first part the real way.)  I did have to spend quite a bit of time figuring how to re-create the setup though.

[Pooty]

I didn't expect anyone to be so proficient at it right away.

There is one limitation of note though when it comes to using a crawling backroute: <Spoiler>

So THAT'S what I was doing wrong! Hmm... actually, I feel a bit cheeky trying to do that now, seeing that it's a backroute.

[Edit: A penny just dropped, and I've finally worked out how to beat geoo's level. Good puzzle. ]

[ccexplore]

Ok, I guess the best way to test this editor is to go through the entire design process of making one level (which is attached, btw, Medieval tribe).

Not sure if I missed something easy, but my gold solution has some fairly unforgiving (pixel precision-wise) parts, which really pissed turned me off at the end.  The puzzle concept itself was really good though.  Seems like it would've been better if:

You're given 1 archer, 2 jumpers instead of 2 archers 1 jumper.
 

[ccexplore]

Can anyone get this level to work?  My DOSBOX locked up when I ran it.

Did your copy of L2 ever work before (if not, you might have a bad copy).  Also, did you remember to run L2-fix instead of just L2?

Anyway, the level works fine for me, and I enjoyed it.  It wasn't too hard but it does require a little thought, and there are no horrible precision or tedium involved, which I greatly appreciate after certain other levels...... 

But I should note that I left some skills unused (see spoiler).  Maybe that's expected but just in case there's some sort of backroute?

leftover: 1 roper, 1 floater
 

[Pooty]

Ok, I guess the best way to test this editor is to go through the entire design process of making one level (which is attached, btw, Medieval tribe).

Not sure if I missed something easy, but my gold solution has some fairly unforgiving (pixel precision-wise) parts, which really pissed turned me off at the end.  The puzzle concept itself was really good though.  Seems like it would've been better if:

You're given 1 archer, 2 jumpers instead of 2 archers 1 jumper.
 

I came up with a less-unforgiving solution to the level (still uses all available skills, mind you).

First lemming becomes a Rock Climber, and jumps onto the little platform below. He fires an arrow to form the bridge, then becomes an attractor. All the other lemmings will bunch up, and as the last lemming arrives, use a bomber. Free the attractor with an archer, lend the bomber the swimming skill, and you're done!

[geoo]

Not sure if I missed something easy, but my gold solution has some fairly unforgiving (pixel precision-wise) parts, which really pissed turned me off at the end.  The puzzle concept itself was really good though.  Seems like it would've been better if:

You're given 1 archer, 2 jumpers instead of 2 archers 1 jumper.
 

Yep, you did. I hoped I had eliminated all solutions of that kind, but it seems you still found a way to cram the lemmings together and be fast enough with the archer. I still don't see how you actually did that, separating the climber from the attracted rest. I chose the second archer as a useless yet possibly seemingly useful skill, but I guess it turned out to be of too much use. Should have used a filler or something instead.
The intended solution is very easy to execute, actually. (The solution described by Pooty is my intended solution).

It's still good enough for skipping like half the level, and it suggests there's a chance the level is solvable w/o any rock climbers (maybe I'll try that later tonight...)

I actually don't see where one would actually need rock climbers in the first place. I assigned one in my original solution, the standard route (I assume), but it was an entirely pointless assignment.

And in regards to tediousness, be glad it didn't feature builders instead of ropers. I actually didn't find it tedious at all, though some parts had a bit of a feal of 'filler'.

And yes, I think 60 ropers is a perfect number. In the 3 serious tries I had, I needed 60, 61 and 59 respectively (the second one failing, obviously). I can indeed be glad you didn't lower it to 50...

[weirdybeardy]

It's interesting that the 8x16 tile grid hasn't done away with pixel-perfect solutions, but rather manifested them differently. 

[Clam]

I actually don't see where one would actually need rock climbers in the first place. I assigned one in my original solution, the standard route (I assume), but it was an entirely pointless assignment.

The rock climbers are there in case you want them, not because you need them. They're just a convenient way of isolating a lemming.

[ccexplore]

I hoped I had eliminated all solutions of that kind, but it seems you still found a way to cram the lemmings together and be fast enough with the archer. I still don't see how you actually did that, separating the climber from the attracted rest.

I didn't really separate the climber the way you imagined:

[edit: I just realize I missed a screenshot or two, so no wonder you're a little confused from the screenshots (though in my defense, it's hard to make screenshots when you're in the middle of worrying about moves that require pixel precision).  Anyway, the spoiler text should explain my method pretty clearly]

The climber is simply assigned from the right edge of the attractor crowd (I assign the 3rd lemming out the attractor), and he stays with the rest of the crowd until the climbing.  The real trick (and real hell) in my solution is how to "re-integrate" the attractor back into the crowd, which I thought the screenshots explain but I guess not well.  I assigned the attractor an archer to get the crowd moving, then have him wait to shoot an arrow at a near-vertical angle so that the arrow will fall down vertical just a little in front of him.  This prevents him from going all the way to the tower to turn around.  I need to time it very precisely though so that the arrow lands immediately just after the crowd is entirely left of where the arrow would land, so that they don't get trapped by it.  (In the meanwhile, I also have to remember to jump the climber before he falls off the tower!) Some precision with the bomber is also needed to ensure everyone gets launched onto/over the key platform.

I'm not going to look at Pooty's solution just now, but I'm extremely surprised about what you say regarding "all solutions of that kind".  Are you merely referring to what you call "separating the climber", or are you actually talking about the latter part that gets the majority of lemmings over to the exit?  Because I would've thought the latter part would match your intended solution at least in concept.

I actually don't see where one would actually need rock climbers in the first place.

Hmm, come to think of it, you probably don't need it.  But it's good insurance against the possibility of lemmings from the crowd leaking out at bad times.  Given that there is no replay feature in the game, you do as much as you can to avoid accidents, however remote the chances might actually be.   Especially on a somewhat tedious long level.

[geoo]

Yeah, I know the rock climbers are there merely for convenience, but I was wondering why you'd think the might possibly be essential, as my solution was pretty fool-proof without them (just expensive on ropers). It seems that the wall-crawl solutions require them in some way though (though you implied they might not?).

With "all solutions of that kind" I mean the way of condensing the crowd. (Below possible, but unlikely spoiler)

Of course you'd have to use the attractor for it, but my solution does it in a somewhat different way.

If you want to try, you can replace one of the archers with a filler. I hope this should not allow this backroute.
For some reason I also thought that handling it like this would make the arrow to prevent the crowd from falling into the water be a bit too late, but I don't know what made me think so, as the timing is pretty similar in that regard.

[ccexplore]

It seems that the wall-crawl solutions require them in some way though (though you implied they might not?).

I did have something in mind, but now that I think of it, it really ends up being less of a wall-crawling solution than a "normal" solution, though there's still wall-crawling and you should end up with a little less roping (I think) than a solution w/o the wall-crawling.

[ccexplore]

(Below possible, but unlikely spoiler)

Finally figure out your intended solution.  Not a spoiler but definitely a hint steering me in the right direction, but it's still amazing how long it took before I realized how the attractor is to be used. Very nice!

[ccexplore]

It seems that the wall-crawl solutions require them in some way though (though you implied they might not?).

I did have something in mind, but now that I think of it, it really ends up being less of a wall-crawling solution than a "normal" solution, though there's still wall-crawling and you should end up with a little less roping (I think) than a solution w/o the wall-crawling.

Don't know what I was thinking, but I'm 99% sure now that you can definitely do the wall-crawling thing without rock climbers, using about 5 ropers and 6 bombers to get past the first half of the level (ie. similar to where I've gotten in the solution I've presented, only actually a little higher).  I don't have an actual confirmation yet only because I haven't quite worked out exactly and reliably how to shoot the rope to the right for the wall-crawling effect, and I need a break.

Of course, it's sort of a moot point since ClamSpammer's going to add more steel to the level.

[weirdybeardy]

I humbly present new versions of my Highland and Circus levels, and also presenting my new Sports level. They might not be the most challenging levels ever, but hopefully you won't find them too unappealing. Please play them, test them, then throw them back and tell me what's wrong with them. 

[ccexplore]

Pretty decent levels. Due to time, I'll have to look at the Sports one a little later.  I've attached my solutions for the other two, although I fear both may be backroutes, though fortunately not to the point of trivializing the levels I think.  (And remember, I even managed to backroute geoo's level, so it really doesn't say anything about the quality of the levels or your level design abilities. )  More please!

[ccexplore]

Due to time, I'll have to look at the Sports one a little later.

Finally got gold on it!  The Sports level is definitely your best level to date IMO, and amongst one of the best ones for Lemmings 2 custom levels.   For once, the solution I come up with is something I'm reasonably sure is not a backroute.  That's not to say the level might not have other solutions (including possibly solutions that save all lemmings, though I have little to go on at the moment), but this time around I think the backroutes, if any, would likely be harder than the intended solution (ie. pixel precision, or odd tricks like wall crawling).  Also, the level solution feels like it's something one would expect in the real Lemmings 2 game (other than maybe the fact that any level in the official Lemmings 2 game would likely have been made easier, which of course I don't care for).

This also brings up a point about gold: since the game doesn't show you the max number of lemmings you can lose, perhaps it's best to mention that number whenever we post custom Lemmings 2 levels here, to save people time from having to run some other program like PCL2STAT to find out that number.

=================

It's strange how activity on this thread seems to have evaporated compared with last week.  Is it just that it takes time to create levels, or have people moved on to other things already?     I suppose there's also L++, which I should give a try sometime soon, especially given the current lull in other topics.

[weirdybeardy]

It's strange how activity on this thread seems to have evaporated compared with last week.  Is it just that it takes time to create levels, or have people moved on to other things already?     I suppose there's also L++, which I should give a try sometime soon, especially given the current lull in other topics.

It's funny, I was just logging on today to bump this thread 'cos I was wondering if it had dried up completely - but I'm glad to see that it hasn't. Thanks so much for getting round to playing the level. I'm glad you like it!  I was thinking to myself "This is probably the best level I'll make for a while, so I hope it doesn't fall flat on its face". The interesting thing is, the build took a relatively short amount of time (due to the excellent editor/s out there right now), but it was the playtesting and fine-tuning that took a while.

I took a couple of steps back from this discussion 'cos I wanted to see if the Lemmings 2 custom level thread could sustain itself without an enthusiast like me popping up every five seconds.  Seems to have gone quiet though. Shame.

Thanks again!  Are you working on any new levels at the moment? I think I've got at least a couple more in my head, bursting to get out. I want to try a Space level, and maybe a Polar level...

Also, the level solution feels like it's something one would expect in the real Lemmings 2 game (other than maybe the fact that any level in the official Lemmings 2 game would likely have been made easier, which of course I don't care for).

^This is my favourite thing you said. 

[ccexplore]

Thanks again!  Are you working on any new levels at the moment?

Well, I had a few little ideas, but I'm not sure I have enough at the moment to put together a level worth playing.   My skills at making levels definitely lags far behind my level solving skills, unfortunately.

One other approach I might try is to take some existing levels in Lemmings 1 (custom or otherwise), remake it in Lemmings 2 in a non-Classic tribe, give it a totally different skillset (w/ many non-Classic skills of course), and see where it goes.

[namida]

Seeing It's Hero Time done in L2 would be interesting... not sure how possible it is though.

[weirdybeardy]

Okay, here's my first attempt at a level for the Shadow tribe. 

[Dullstar]

While I like the ability to edit Lemmings 2, L++ has me caught up right now.

[weirdybeardy]

*shrug* I haven't been doing anything Lemmings-related for at least a week now. Just bumping the thread in case anyone's still interested. A Custom L2 level thread might be a good idea, if there's ever enough support for it. At the moment, looks like there isn't. But no worries. 

[ccexplore]

All right, I finally got the time and inspiration to create a custom Lemmings 2 level that I'm reasonably happy with.  I have to say, level editing in Lemmings 2 can be quite harder than Lemmings 1, with the inability to place terrain at arbitrary pixel positions and the lack of things like eraser pieces.  It's also often harder to see which terrain pieces fit together with what.

If anyone still has interest in this, try the attached level.  It replaces Sports 1.  Gold requires losing no lemmings (ie. saving everyone).  I haven't spent much time in backroute eliminations (because it took long enough to tweak the level to make my intended solution work well), so those of you whose levels I've backrouted in the past, here's your chance to get back at me!   In any event, do PM me any and all solutions you've managed, gold or not.  Also feel free to PM me for hints.  No glitches or wall crawling or other logic-defying weirdness needed even for gold, though the intended gold solution does make use of a trick that you might not have seen/used before.

[weirdybeardy]

^I'll give it a try and provide some feedback as soon as I can! 

[ccexplore]

Okay, I think I found a backroute to the level, although it's a solution not obvious enough that I think I'm okay to keep it in the level.  That said, this new possible gold solution (which I haven't confirmed yet) can be kind of tedious to execute, so I've attached here a modified version of my level that hopefully has the backroute eliminated, for those who don't want to be distracted by this other solution.  Again, I stress that I'm fine with people reporting solutions for the original level with the backroute.

[ccexplore]

Okay, here's my first attempt at a level for the Shadow tribe. 

Finally got around to playing this.  Attached's my first successful solution, which as usual is undoubtedly a total backroute.   Still, the level's pretty nice-looking and interesting enough, I'll probably try to find a more intended solution later.

(For those a little confused by the attached screenshots, note that the "!" portion of the traps are actually considered by the game as background rather than steel.)

[weirdybeardy]

(For those a little confused by the attached screenshots, note that the "!" portion of the traps are actually considered by the game as background rather than steel.)

Ahh. Well, I can fix that. 

Glad you managed to give it a go. I still haven't beaten the original version of your Sports level, but I'm going to download your tweaked version and see if I can spot the difference, which should help me figure out what the original backroute was. 

I'm actually gradually replacing all my L2 levels with custom levels, bit by bit - either of my own creation or ones I've downloaded off here. It's fun to think I'm gradually accumulating a "new" Tribes game.  So far I've got 1 Circus, 1 Highland, 2 Classic, 1 Medieval, 1 Shadow, 1 Cavelem, 1 Egyptian, 1 Beach and 2 Sports...

[ccexplore]

Here's a different solution to your Shadow level.  I'm guessing it's not one of your intended solutions, but at least this time around, I'm going around the traps, rather than through them like last time.

[weirdybeardy]

Here's my tweaked version of "You Only Lem Twice". I freely admit that it's a cheap fix.  This is also my final version. There may be other backroutes, but I'm fine with that. You've got to draw the line somewhere, eh. *shrug*

[geoo]

All right, I finally got the time and inspiration to create a custom Lemmings 2 level that I'm reasonably happy with.  I have to say, level editing in Lemmings 2 can be quite harder than Lemmings 1, with the inability to place terrain at arbitrary pixel positions and the lack of things like eraser pieces.  It's also often harder to see which terrain pieces fit together with what.

If anyone still has interest in this, try the attached level.  It replaces Sports 1.  Gold requires losing no lemmings (ie. saving everyone).  I haven't spent much time in backroute eliminations (because it took long enough to tweak the level to make my intended solution work well), so those of you whose levels I've backrouted in the past, here's your chance to get back at me!   In any event, do PM me any and all solutions you've managed, gold or not.  Also feel free to PM me for hints.  No glitches or wall crawling or other logic-defying weirdness needed even for gold, though the intended gold solution does make use of a trick that you might not have seen/used before.

This is doubtlessy the best level made for Lemmings 2 (well, there aren't many L2 levels up to now, but it is also one of the very best if you take original Lemmings 1 into account)!
Pretty much every skill serves multiple purposes, and you're miles away from the solution if you just try some regular ideas; pretty much nothing is used in a conventional manner, no filler content at all. Executing the solution is surprisingly convenient, and the only slight difficulty comes right at the beginning, so no retries after you've done half of the level. Simply put, this level is perfect. I'm 100% sure that the solution I found is the intended solution, so no point PMing it to you.
I honestly didn't expect this to work, and I think I dismissed the idea at first, till I worked out the placement of one of the key skills. Later I combined this with the problem I had all the time, and then I realized that this must be the solution to this. Great eye for detail from the L2 developers, and interesting as on the other side of the spectrum I noticed magno booters not being affected by knock-back bombers (or is that intensional, the boots allowing to stick to the ground?).

From your first paragraph, I suppose you also tried this one with other styles first? As the Sports tribe with its blocky simplistic terrain shouldn't make it too difficult to see which tiles fit together (didn't create a level in this style yet though).

I also finally got around to solving weirdy's remaining levels. My solution to "Oot 'n' aboot" is identical to ccexplores (really identical, I first thought my screenshots were just scaled down versions of his), the circus level gave me quite some trouble till I found this solution which I somehow think is a bit ugly. "The Diptych" is pretty neat, though a bit annoying to execute. Seems that my solution there is pretty similar to ccexplore's, though we did the top a bit differently. I wonder whether there's a solution that involves sending the lemmings from the top to the very bottom having them survive the fall by falling into the steam? I also like the shadow level with its more limited skills, though I haven't found a really clean solution to it yet. The one I currently got is a bit ugly...

[weirdybeardy]

Glad you thought my levels were okay. I know what my shortcomings are and I do consider myself to be a novice compared to you guys. "The Diptych" is the only level I've made that I'm completely happy with. My Shadow level still needs honing even though I said it didn't - I suppose I just can't leave it alone... My Highland and Circus levels were rushed and experimental as I was still wrangling with PCL2ED at that time instead of GuyPerfect's editor, which is why they have "ugly" solutions. A good way of summing up my levels would be "messy"... :-p Whether I want them to be or not, they just sort of end up that way. And puzzles like the superb "Not A Lot To Go On" kind of leave mine in the shade, but I'm fine with that. I'm here to share in the fun as best as I can manage, and that's all, I guess.

I actually meant to suggest that perhaps we could start off a genuine thread for custom L2 levels instead of stringing this one out; its title "Here I Go Again" doesn't really indicate what it's currently about, and a new thread would be easier to find for anyone out there who wants to know... I almost started a thread myself but I wanted to check that it was a good idea first...?

[ccexplore]

I know what my shortcomings are and I do consider myself to be a novice compared to you guys.

Well, I think in some sense we're all novices especially when it comes to L2 levelmaking, given the lack of decent editors until recently.  Your levels aren't all that bad, they might not be all very hard or cunning, but they have potential and are always visually interesting at least. In any event, my brief experience with L2 levelmaking shows that it really helps to get familiar with what sorts of terrain and objects are available in each style, in order to understand the kinds of things you can make easily or hard to do in each style.  And the only way to get familiar is to make more levels in different styles, so experimental is fine.

I actually meant to suggest that perhaps we could start off a genuine thread for custom L2 levels instead of stringing this one out; its title "Here I Go Again" doesn't really indicate what it's currently about, and a new thread would be easier to find for anyone out there who wants to know... I almost started a thread myself but I wanted to check that it was a good idea first...?

I agree. Actually I was thinking about that too, but Dullstar kinda jumped the gun the wrong way by asking Adam to move the entire thread over.  I would've asked to split it so that instead of dozens of pages of posts about the then-editor-in-development, the new thread would just have the more recent pages on custom L2 levels.

There aren't too many L2 levels and level designers though, so I think we can handle the "splitting" ourselves by starting a brand new thread, then each level designer simply makes a post attaching all the levels they published so far, and then we continue from there.  (Making the level designer do their own post on their own existing levels allow them to update the levels as needed.)

This is doubtlessy the best level made for Lemmings 2 (well, there aren't many L2 levels up to now, but it is also one of the very best if you take original Lemmings 1 into account)!

Wow, thanks!   Yeah, I'm pretty happy myself when all the various ideas I have came together like that.  I'm also very happy that at least one person other than myself have now solved the level, I was beginning to worry!

I'm 100% sure that the solution I found is the intended solution, so no point PMing it to you.

From what you've said, and the fact that I haven't come up with any solutions other than my intended and the one backroute for the original version of the level, and no one else has reported anything, I'm pretty confident that you have the intended solution.  If not, then at least an alternate solution I'd probably be as happy with as you are.  Nonetheless, I'll probably PM you a few questions later tonight to better confirm what your solution is.  (That, or you can just PM me whether the "didn't expect this to work" is what I'm thinking, since that's the neat trick I alluded to when I said it's something that's "logical but never been utilized in an L2 level".)

Executing the solution is surprisingly convenient

I guess one good thing about the lack of an advanced playtesting tool for L2 right now is that it forces your solution to be humanly executable.   In other words, it can't be too insane that the level designer himself would've thrown the computer out the window trying to execute the solution himself.

I noticed magno booters not being affected by knock-back bombers (or is that intensional, the boots allowing to stick to the ground?).

It would seem to be intentional, especially given that they don't get knock-back even when they're oriented upright (the only times you can assign other skills to a magno booter).

[And for those still trying to solve my level, no, this fact about magno booters has nothing to do with my intended solution or even the backroute really.]

From your first paragraph, I suppose you also tried this one with other styles first? As the Sports tribe with its blocky simplistic terrain shouldn't make it too difficult to see which tiles fit together (didn't create a level in this style yet though).

Yeah, Sports isn't too bad.  Part of the issue is that different styles have very different characteristics of terrain and especially objects, such as the kinds of traps available and the various sizes of steel blocks available.  As an extreme example, if I recall correctly, the Circus style not only lacks traps of any kind, I seem to recall it lacks water as well.

In the case of my level, I needed some kind of object that's not available in all styles, and the first style I found it was in the Highland tribe.  Unfortunately, while the Highland tribe does have some blocky terrain, they annoyingly come in different colors for different orientations, and after trying it out for some time, I just wasn't too happy with things appearance-wise, so I decided to switch to the Sports style knowing that at least the blocky terrains it offers come in one color.

An example of difficulty figuring out how to fit terrain pieces together is when I was trying to use some of the more "natural" terrains in the Highland tribe to decorate the undersides of the blocky terrain construction, and found myself having to go back to existing Highland levels to get a clue on what pieces should go adjacent with what.  The lack of copy/paste ability in GP's editor didn't help.

Another example of the need for style-awareness relates to presets that are normally meant for background.  I know that some people like ClamSpammer is very vocal about this, so I tried to make sure my terrain usage is consistent with the official game's.  As it turned out, there's an inconsistency with Highland, where that preset of the white dog is background in most official L2 levels, except one (I forgot which, I think Highland 8?).  I wanted it to be terrain not background, and that combined with other difficulties I alluded to above was what pushed me to try a different style.  For Sports, I run into the opposite difficulty, where I would've liked to decorate some parts of my level with background pieces, but looking at the official levels, pretty much none are used as background, forcing me to leave certain portions of the level undecorated.

[ccexplore]

I'm starting this as the thread for custom levels for Lemmings 2, to get out of the habit of reusing/abusing the "Here I Go Again!" thread.

First, I'd request that everyone who has already uploaded levels on the "Here I Go Again" thread to create a new post here attaching all your levels from there to your post here.  Please do this only if you're the one who created the levels, this way the level designer can change the attachments to their own posts to update their levels.

I would attach my level here but I don't have it right now on my work computer.  When I'm back home I'll edit this post to attach my level.

[edit: attached my level "Not A Lot To Go On" here, as Sports 1 (level110.dat) and Sports 2 (level111.dat).  Sports 1 is the fixed version with the backroute removed, and Sports 2 is the original version]

[weirdybeardy]

I'll upload the latest versions of my levels as soon as I get home from work. 

Edit:

Okay, here are my levels:

• "The Show Must Go On!" - my big, messy, easy Circus level
  
• "Oot 'n' Aboot!" - my big, slightly-less-messy Highland level, with tweaked skillset and time limit
• "The Diptych" - my tall Sports level, moderate "mid-Tribe" difficulty
• "You Only Lem Twice" - my Shadow level with tweaked terrain; there's still at least two ways to get Gold

I'm working on a new level at the moment, but it might not be finished for a while as I'm busy over the December/January period...

[weirdybeardy]

Here's my L2-based salute to the time of year: a moderately easy Polar level. 

Merry Xmas to everybody in the Lemmings Forums community, and a Happy New Year to all! 

[geoo]

Yep, this one was rather easy, though the execution was a bit difficult, as there wasn't much leeway for the fall height for the lower group, and getting the final filler at the correct position within the crowd didn't work either until I found the position to set the cursor.

Here's also a new level (Breeze), which might be a bit harder than my previous one.
I also reuploaded Fierljeppen again, hopefully with the backroute fixed now.

[ccexplore]

Yep, this one was rather easy, though the execution was a bit difficult, as there wasn't much leeway for the fall height for the lower group, and getting the final filler at the correct position within the crowd didn't work either until I found the position to set the cursor.

Nearly forgot about the level.  I ended up with the exact same solution (despite putting in some effort trying to find another solution), except I also used the jet packer to help with the final sand pouring.  (Doesn't help with picking a lemming that faces the right way, but at least you can position the lemming once you pick the right one.)

It's not terribly hard, but "rather easy" might be overstating things a bit.

Here's also a new level (Breeze), which might be a bit harder than my previous one.

Nice level!  Not sure if it's really harder, but the concept is pretty neat and well implemented in the level.  The only slight issue is that the solution ends up with a few skill assignments really close to one another in time, though it just takes a tiny bit of practice (and left hand ready on "P").  Among other things, I like how this level refutes a certain someone's claim of uselessness of a certain skill.

I'll forgo the screenshots this time to give other people more time to work on the level, but I'll PM you so you can check whether it's an intended solution or backroute (though I'm pretty sure it's intended).

[GigaLem]

where can you get the level creator

[geoo]

You might be surprised, but your solution actually is a backroute. It's a pretty clean and nice one though. I totally forgot about that glue behaviour. I won't go into detail about the differences yet, in case you still want to find the intended solution (which is a bit more obscure, using some kind of special trick to pass). Below is another version of the level, with your solution eliminated.
Yeah, multiple assignments close to each other are a bit of an issue, but I have my hand ready on 'P' by default (the right hand though ), so I'm used to it.

where can you get the level creator

http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=176.msg7020#msg7020
http://geoo.digibase.ca/PCL2ED/
http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=295.0
http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=176.msg6859#msg6859
http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?action=search

EDIT: And Happy Birthday, Steve!

[weirdybeardy]

Thanks for the feedback on my Polar level. I think it's a symptom of my approach to level-building that almost every time I build a level, by the time I finish play-testing it, I suddenly think "Oh bugger, half these skills aren't necessary because there's a massive backroute and my intended solution is completely avoidable", and end up sprinkling on the barest minimum skillset I can manage... which is why my levels always look much more complicated than they need to be (ie. the completely pointless steel sections to the left side of my Polar level). I try to have a good sense of humour about it, but it's still pretty embarrassing.      So far almost all my levels have ended up this way... 

Anyway. Moving on. Juicy new levels for me to try!  I'll give them a go and bestow my humble and limited opinion upon you all very soon. 

[ccexplore]

Below is another version of the level, with your solution eliminated.

I'll email you my solution (so I can just use screenshots) to this version of the level.  I can no longer say whether a solution's intended or not, except to say that I'm not entirely sure what the "special trick" is.  One particular move in the beginning is rather fussy to execute, but that's just due to the terrain setup and not some special trick.

[edit: I just worked out a slightly different solution that eliminates the need for the fussy move, as well as providing a basis for calling something a "special trick".  I'll email you again.]

[ccexplore]

Alright, here might be the first level for a Lemmings game inspired by someone's birthday .

Actually I had the general concept for a while but never got anywhere good with it.  I'm still not 100% satisfied with it but I think it's about as good as it's ever gonna get.  Gold requires saving everyone.  Per convention of the Highland style, the clouds are background; everything else are terrain/objects.

Now, just because I'm not entirely happy with the level, doesn't mean that it's going to be easy.  In fact, I ended up adding a few more skills to the level because an earlier version was just too painful to execute.  So you may have one or two leftover skills.  A few moves may require a tiny bit of pixel precision (again, I actually already adjusted the level to make it more forgiving).  There's a move in my solution that is borderline glitchy, so for those worrying about such things, I'll just tell you outright here:

The rock climber can apparently get around a 2-pixel-wide overhang, even though the 45-degree rule may lead you to expect only 1-pixel-wide overhang is okay.

(I didn't intend to require this move, but as it turned out, using it make the level design and solution far cleaner than not using it.)

For an extra challenge (or extra pain), try getting Gold without using the Stomper and using only 4 fillers.

[edit: officially deprecating all previous versions of the level, replacing with Pour(V4).  No stomper is still possible if you want the challenge.]

[ccexplore]

Whoops, major backroutes found in my level, partly caused by the addition of extra skills.

Here's a version hopefully with the backroutes removed, without removing the extra skills.  As an unplanned side effect, the no-stomper challenge is no longer possible in this version.

This level is definitely not one of my better ones.  Maybe it's time I take a swig at the bottle and move on......

[edit: forget this; try Pour(V4) please!]

[geoo]

Thanks for the feedback on my Polar level. I think it's a symptom of my approach to level-building that almost every time I build a level, by the time I finish play-testing it, I suddenly think "Oh bugger, half these skills aren't necessary because there's a massive backroute and my intended solution is completely avoidable", and end up sprinkling on the barest minimum skillset I can manage... which is why my levels always look much more complicated than they need to be (ie. the completely pointless steel sections to the left side of my Polar level). I try to have a good sense of humour about it, but it's still pretty embarrassing.      So far almost all my levels have ended up this way... 

Funnily enough, the polar level seems to be the one with the most clearly defined solution, and is (imo) the easiest one. The circus one gave me quite a lot of trouble, and my solution ended up requiring quite some precision. Also calling 'The Diptych' "moderate "mid-Tribe" difficulty" is quite a bit of an understatement.
It's great to see some L2 levels pop up, they are quite a diversion from all the L1 levels.
Don't let yourself be discouraged by backroutes, we all know about them... " title="Angry" class="smiley" />

In that regard, now it's finally my turn to haunt you back with backroutes, ccexplore
I got two solutions which I executed on the original version, but they should be adaptable to the updated version.
In neither of these I poured as many as I could have. I love the theme of that level though.

As for 'Breeze into the Light', yep, these solutions are rather messy, and unintended.
The 'special trick' is something not used before, but I wouldn't consider it a glitch.
(Unrelated to the actual level) As a note, I don't know whether you're aware of it, but while the game is paused, you can press space to immediately get into wind mill mode, so you can at least already position the mouse, though you still have to accelerate the wind mill.
Here's another version

[ccexplore]

In that regard, now it's finally my turn to haunt you back with backroutes, ccexplore

Yes indeed.  To weirdybeardy:  see?  even my own levels are not immune, so don't worry about it.

In neither of these I poured as many as I could have.

I've concluded that there is one skill I clearly need to fully get rid of, which I have done so in the new version attached (you're also given an extra of a certain skill).  In the process, I've actually adopted one element common to the "backroute" solutions, so I also cut down the number of fillers.  That said, even the original solution for v1 and v2 do give you at least one more filler than needed though.  (It was a weak attempt at being more mistake-tolerant, but in the new version, you don't need as many fillers anyhow, so mistake-tolerance is practically a non-issue now.)

As a note, I don't know whether you're aware of it, but while the game is paused, you can press space to immediately get into wind mill mode, so you can at least already position the mouse, though you still have to accelerate the wind mill.

Good tip.  It's so obvious I should've realized it myself, but I guess since in the actual game you rarely need such precise wind-blowing, it never occurred to me to take advantage of the keyboard for the fan as well.

[edit: Pour(V3) replaced with Pour(V4)]

[ccexplore]

Here's another version

Check your email.  I hope this is your special trick.  (If not, well, then I guess you've just learned a new one. )

[ccexplore]

Sorry to do this, but it just occurred to me that since mistake-tolerance was no longer particularly necessary in Pour (V3), I can now re-incorporate something back to the level that I originally abandoned in the name of mistake-tolerance.

Hence here's Pour (V4).  I reduce the number of a certain skill yet again by one.  I also restored the terrain back to what it looks like in V1, since I noticed the changes in V2 and V3 are no longer relevant.  The wretched level has managed to come back full circle it seems.

If you must, you can continue on with Pour(V3) [note that I've removed the attachment though], but I strongly encouraged upgrading to Pour(V4).  It's really not that much harder, and the change in the solution is actually almost miscellaneous (but important to me).  You shouldn't need to throw away any current progress you'd have on Pour(V3) to solve Pour(V4).

[edit: *sign* as it turns out, if I really want to enforce what I re-incorporate back into the level, I think I would need to reduce that skill's count yet one more time, but then the resulting precision becomes a bit much.  So I'm leaving that aspect of the level alone--leaving you a choice of precision vs. parsimony......(hopefully the latter as I intended)]

[geoo]

I managed to find a solution to the latest version of your level. It was a bit of a pain to execute though (and to a significant extend the retarded stacker physics are to blame. Why don't they line up by default?)
It isn't possible to shave off one of that certain skill, so I suspect my solution differs from yours (which I don't have a clue about yet what it might be.)

And yep, you found the intended solution to my level. 

[ccexplore]

I managed to find a solution to the latest version of your level. [...]

Well it's official:  I don't think I can really backroute-proof my Insane Steve birthday level in any acceptable way , so I'll just call geoo's solution "close enough" in the Homer Simpson sense.  The silver lining to this is that since no one has presented any solutions using my ideas (except of course the main one alluded to in the title), I can probably sneak those "undiscovered" side-ideas into future levels instead, hopefully when one least expects it.

At least it was fun making the level, and hopefully it isn't too un-fun to solve.  Happy holidays, and drink responsibly!  (For those who can drink legally of course.....)

[RubiX]

Any chance of seeing a Lemmings2 remake game with all new levels in the future? like we saw with Namida & others from the community ( really great this is )

would really enjoy running through all new tribes levels hehe.

[geoo]

Made a few new levels (actually, I had all but tick1&2 done for a while already, and these were almost done). None of them should be as hard as my previous ones though, or too hard at all.

'Recycling plant' employs an idea that just doesn't really work well in L1; while the idea isn't really difficult to see, I think it's still a nice level.
'Ticking Bomb' 1 & 2 were initially supposed to be only one level, but it didn't really work out as I wanted, and an alternative solution was almost more interesting than the intended one, so I made a second part to it. Overall I'm not 100% satisfied with these...
'The Diver Level'...the name says all. More a test level than anything else.

[ccexplore]

'Recycling plant' employs an idea that just doesn't really work well in L1; while the idea isn't really difficult to see, I think it's still a nice level.

I've only tried this level so far, and I have a feeling I utterly failed to see the level's idea.  I've attached my solution, which did make use of all the throwers and spearers but has 3 jumpers and 1 attractor left over.  Also there were a surprising number of moves that require pixel precision to work out correctly, which I'm taking as a sign that I'm not solving the level the way you intended.  Then again, if the level idea originated in L1, then I'm really scratching my head as to what it could be, that it can be evolved to using all these projectile skills that have no equivalent whatsoever in L1.

Other than the tediousness from the pixel-precision moves, overall it's not a bad level.  I definitely enjoy your use of the "vine" terrain in the Outdoor Style.  Like the crosshatch grid in the Crystal set in Lemmings 1, it's terrain that actually has functional interest as opposed to merely something pretty for the lemmings to walk on.

Perhaps the level will become even more fun once you take out a backroute or two.   I'll try your other levels later over the weekend.

[edit: on second thought, maybe this is your level idea, although it's kinda general:

I notice how, at least in my solution, the various pieces of path being built out by balls and spears are done by different lemmings, instead of the typical one-hero-lemming-does-everything kind of solution.  Moreover, you have the case of needing other lemmings to do stuff to help some of your heroes to get to the exit after they did the path-building work.  Like for example, one of the spearer needs some other lemming to throw a ball to make him head to the right after he falls down onto the exit platform.

I can kind of see why this kind of level idea would be difficult to implement in L1.  Anyway, the level is also good in that it presents a few possible general paths to consider, and you have to do a bunch of exploration to find out what works best.]

[geoo]

Yep, you guessed correctly, with all its pixel precision your solution is a backroute. My solution doesn't require any pixel precision at all, just approximately anticipating the arc of stones and spears, but I guess that's common to any solution, considering the skillset.
Still, realizing your route is quite a feat, I didn't expect this to be possible.
The new version hopefully eliminates that though.
I'm glad you already kinda liked this backroutable version, I think you'll like the intended solution even better then.

Yeah, the Outdoor terrain allows for a lot of variety (it's my favourite tribe), it's just a bit difficult to use with the L2 tile matrix level system, where you're limited to the grid and can't overlap pieces (but I think you already experienced that).

I thought the solution idea might be somewhat evident, and this impression was aided by the fact that Simon found the idea pretty quickly, though that was in a preliminary version still featuring archers (which are more flexible to allow backroutes), amongst others. (Yeah, more secret stuff going on in the IRC channel...) I'm glad this apparently isn't so much the case as I thought; what you thought it might be actually applies not as much to my solutions than it does to yours.
The idea didn't actually originate in L1, I just somehow came up with it and didn't find a sensible way to make it work in L1 (though I think it's technically possible, just not as nicely as in L2).

[ccexplore]

Okay, here are my solutions to Recycling Plant v2, Tick1, and Tick2.

Hopefully the solution to RPv2 should be closer to what you intended, although I still don't really see how a L1 version of the level can come about based on my solution, so maybe that's a bad sign.

Love Tick1 and Tick2, great way to make use of the pouring object that wasn't actually featured in official levels.  I'm not sure how intended my Tick1 solution is, but it is the first solution I got for that level, and I haven't yet worked out how to adapt my Tick2 solution to Tick1.  One thing that annoys me a bit with these levels is that it seems while the pouring object is active, you can't reliably assign sand-pourer to a lemming.

[geoo]

Oh well, the solution to Recycling Plant you found is precisely what I tried to eliminate when I replaced the archers with throwers and spearers. Your setup seems to be pretty tricky, you both cancel the frog's trigger area to save jumpers and make a starting point for further spearing with the spear near the exit? That's a pretty neat backroute you've got there, I don't think I'd have ever thought of that.
I can't find a sensible way to get rid of this method in general, even if I eliminate this particular setup, there might still be other ways. So I'll try a somewhat ugly fix, hopefully eliminating this kind of solution once and for all.

Haha, you kinda backrouted Tick 2 with the general solution from Tick 1, and backrouted Tick 1 some different way (should have thought of platformers on a slope...). I actually came up with the idea you used in Tick 2 when trying to setup a crawling route for Circus 10. The pouring object was pretty useful for this, however as you said, it has its downsides. Apart from not always allowing to use a sand pourer in an unpredicable manner (in fact, sometimes it works with the exact lemmings positions, and sometimes it doesn't, so I guess it even depends on pausing and fast forward used up to the point), it also pours a bit unreliably, i.e. stopping at times. I guess the original authors had a reason for not using this object. I also suspect that this behaviour is required due to some internal memory limitation.
I somewhat half-heartedly fixed these backroutes, breaking the continuity between the two levels on the way and giving minimal skills now (Some skills were included to allure to thinking about the possibility of a conventional miner route). The fixes are pretty radical, so I hope backroutes have been eliminated with that now.

[ccexplore]

Oh well, the solution to Recycling Plant you found is precisely what I tried to eliminate when I replaced the archers with throwers and spearers. Your setup seems to be pretty tricky, you both cancel the frog's trigger area to save jumpers and make a starting point for further spearing with the spear near the exit? That's a pretty neat backroute you've got there, I don't think I'd have ever thought of that.

To clarify, this is what I did in my backroute:

The spear is thrown as far to the left as possible within the general area I need it to land.  It actually lands slightly to the left of the frog's trigger area (I think like right next to the leftmost pixel of the trigger area).  So I still need to jump up onto the spear when approaching from the right.  When approaching from the left, I wait until the lemming has moved up onto the column of pixels of the spear that touches the ground, and them jump off from there to avoid the frog's trigger.

If the frog's trigger area is only 1 pixel wide, then yes, I guess I can probably throw the spear in such a way that it lands exactly on the trigger area.  As for jumpers, there's no need to save any:  1 to jump onto the top vine, 1 to jump off it, 1 onto the next platform, 1 down onto the leaf, 1 across the frog's trigger, 1 onto rightmost mushroom, 1 onto middle mushroom (and then you turn around there from a ball you thrown earlier), 1 back onto rightmost mushroom, 1 to the left of frog, and finally 1 more across the frog's trigger again.

Sorry for forcing the radical fixes upon you, I'll now download new versions of your level and see what they've become.

[ccexplore]

I can't find a sensible way to get rid of this method in general, even if I eliminate this particular setup, there might still be other ways. So I'll try a somewhat ugly fix, hopefully eliminating this kind of solution once and for all.

I didn't find it an ugly fix at all, it's possibly the smartest fix one can come up with to eliminate my backroute with almost no change to the level's appearance.  (Yeah okay, ClamSpammer may disapprove, but then again he has made less L2 levels than even I had, so there. )

Anyway, I finally found what I'm fairly sure is your intended solution.  I don't think you needed to worry the solution being too obvious.  Even though I have a feeling from the very beginning that the solution would be something like this, it obviously still took a while (and two backroutes no less) before I worked out exactly how to achieve the desired setup.

It would definitely be an interesting and tricky level-design challenge to make the solution concept work in L1.  Anyway, awesome job with the level!

I'll try the revised TickX levels later this week.

[ccexplore]

I'll try the revised TickX levels later this week.

Okay, I couldn't resist, and I ended up solving these two levels also.

I have to say, I vastly preferred my backroute solution for Tick2v1 than this new version of Tick1v2, even though both employ the same general solution idea.  In fact, it's downright infuriating executing the solution with Tick1v2, since it really relies on "lucky timing" so to speak, and the game is heavily against you, what with its unreliable inability to assign sand pourers and the pouring object not emitting a consistent stream, making each retry a whole new experience of likely frustration .  With Tick2v1, at least I can use one of the skills to make the crowd slightly more manageable for making the solution work out.

I'm not 100% sure whether my solution for Tick2v2 is intended or not, since I did have one jumper left over, but at least it's totally different from Tick1v2, and much less infuriating to execute.

Below's some minor aspects of the solutions that I failed to capture in the screenshots:

In both solutions, I make use of sending a non-climber lemming towards the water, making him swimmer but not rock climber.  I only assign him rock climber after the lemming's already in the water swimming back and forth.  This allows me to quickly get him to do the sand-pouring at the position and direction that's common in both solutions (at least whenever the game's in the mood to allow me that skill assignment anyway...)

For Tick1v2, the solution I ended up executing relies on the fact that when you pour sand on flat ground, after the lemming finishes pouring he will naturally turn around.

[geoo]

Ah, I finally see how you set up your backroute to the previous version of Recycling Plant. I had forgotten already again that you can launch the spear right through the vines, not needing any additional jumpers for that first spear placement.

Yes, you've of course found a solution using the intended idea now. I'm glad you liked it. The name might also give a slight hint at the solution (it was thought up by Simon, thanks again ).

Your setup is actually a bit different from mine (I use both spears where you used a spear and a stone), but I love how you made the lemmings walk up the slope you created instead of merely turning them around at the top. I also love that you actually used the flinging plant on the hero lemming, never thought of that. My solution can actually be done with two jumpers to spare using this, but I think being a bit lenient giving 10 doesn't hurt either. You did use these 2 for timing at the left, didn't you?

If one were to implement this idea in L1, my idea would be having two groups (one of which cannot be worked with due to walking through a thin tunnel or something), forcing a constant RR (e.g. relying on the last lemming of the group being late enough for something) and allowing no terrain removing skills. One group walks through a trap from the left then, and the other from the right, with no possibility to turn, and each lemming from the group you work with sacrifices himself for exactly one from the other group that just walks constantly, only the latter coming through.

I have to say, I vastly preferred my backroute solution for Tick2v1 than this new version of Tick1v2, even though both employ the same general solution idea.  In fact, it's downright infuriating executing the solution with Tick1v2, since it really relies on "lucky timing" so to speak, and the game is heavily against you, what with its unreliable inability to assign sand pourers and the pouring object not emitting a consistent stream, making each retry a whole new experience of likely frustration .

Actually, my solution doesn't rely on any timing at all (only, of course, being lucky that the tube doesn't stop pouring at the important moment [not pausing seemed to bring a good fate for this], and that the sand pourers work when they are supposed to work).
You could have saved yourself a lot of trouble if

you had made the first sand hill on the starting platform only 7 pixel high by pouring nearby the edge so the would-be-8th layer of sand falls down into the pit. Then you only have to wait for the pit to be filled, and have the last lemming of the pack pour after scaling the sand hill to redirect the sand to the left, sending up the entire crowd at the right moment.

Your solution to Tick2 is pretty much intended, only with the minor difference that I climbed out of the pit with on lemming, and in order to be quick enough at getting to the switch, I needed at least one jumper, and I think depending on the tube's mood, using another one was safe to work, unlike using just one jumper. 5 jumpers was only a rough estimate anyway, which I didn't adjust again.

[ccexplore]

My solution can actually be done with two jumpers to spare using this, but I think being a bit lenient giving 10 doesn't hurt either. You did use these 2 for timing at the left, didn't you?

Here's what I did:

I actually jump one lemming from the lower entrance in order to throw the spear+ball for turning around the upper-entrance lemmings.  (Specifically, I jumped the one that would've "merged" with the ball-thrower at the lower entrance.)  In my set up, you end up with 2 lemmings that violate the correct spacing.  One of them you'll use as the hero.  After the hero has thrown the spear that enables the use of the fling-to-exit plant, you jump the other one to send it to the exit first, before completing the path to release the remaining lemmings.

It was somewhat accidental that I did it that way, instead of using a lemming from the upper entrance and 2 spears as you did.  It has to do with how I used one of the spears already in the upper area, which I believe was a holdover from my previous attempts and from the general desire to conserve throwers (as stones can turn lemmings around by themselves, unlike spears).

It only take a few tries now for me to work out your setup with its 2 sparable jumpers, so I don't think it would've made a big difference for me even if you had only given 8 jumpers.

You could have saved yourself a lot of trouble if

you had made the first sand hill on the starting platform only 7 pixel high

Ah.  Wish I had thought of that before pulling out half my hair doing it the hard way. Can't really fault you though, as I've tried and failed to find a satisfactory way to enforce your idea without introducing skills (or perhaps significantly modifying the level's terrain etc.) that are likely to lead to additional backroutes, or without simply enabling other ways for a timing-reliant version of the solution.

====================

Before I forget, I also solved your diver test level.  I see that you and ClamSpammer shares the same definition of "test level", which seems to (coincidentally) involve the Egypt style and (probably not so coincidentally) slightly tedious, repetitive uses of certain skills in the solution.  I do like the first usage of the diver though.  Perhaps at some point in the future you can combine some of the diver ideas in the test level with other ideas and end up with a better level.

Assign 2nd lemming out exploder at the appropriate time and have him dive off the cliff after 1st lemming falls off it.  His diving will put him left of the 1st lemming out, and since diving goes downward faster than mere falling, you can make it so that the 2nd lemming's explosion will fling the falling 1st lemming to the right at the desired location, where you'd rope to catch everyone else.

As for how to get to the correct location and facing direction to scoop to release the crowd, the main trick is using 3 divers to induce crawling and end up facing the same direction you started out with when you finish crawling up.  Basically, 1 diver into the wall, one more 1 diver in the same direction as before to go even farther into the wall, and 1 last diver in the opposite direction to ensure that you end up facing the original direction after you finally crawl up.  In your level, use the trick 2 times to get over the wall, dive 2 times to skip over the exit trigger in each direction, and use the trick a final time to get back up the wall facing left, so you can finally scoop.

[geoo]

Haha, did ClamSpammer actually explicitely label his level as test level? At least it had a more elaborate name. The egyptian style is nicely blocky, so perfectly suitable for easy-to-design test levels.

I actually came up with this level after reiterating how pretty much useless the divers are (for non-glitchy use), unless you use them for delay or have the sadistic urge to splat even your floaters (well ok, there are more, as even this level shows with the diver overtaking the faller).
It was supposed to show off various uses of the diver, and not repeatedly the same one.
Characteristic to the intended solution is that you only use crawling once, and induce it by using a single diver. Description below in spoiler tag, in case you still want to try; considering it's merely a test level, I don't intend to fix any backroutes:

You actually explode the normal faller, to throw the diver off to the left. Then you rope over the water gap to catch the crowd (which is delayed using divers). Dive through the rope, over the second water gap (jumpers couldn't do that!) and jump into the wall to trigger crawling. Only thing left to do is scooping.

Yeah, I had a quick glance at Tick1v2 as well after you posted your timing-reliant solution to see whether it could be eliminated; thought of using a stacker, but in fear of screwing something up again I just kept it.

Ah ok, I see now how you set up your route for 'Recycling Plant' precisely. So only one of the jumpers was used for timing.
I also removed the bit of grass near the exit to make throwing from there a little easier.

[ccexplore]

It was supposed to show off various uses of the diver, and not repeatedly the same one.

Ah.  That's enough for me to retry the level w/o reading your spoiler.  It didn't take too long to come up with the proper solution, which I guess could be easily enforce simply by reducing the number of divers (my original solution takes at least 12):

In my original solution I shoot the rope upward towards the sphinx.  Now I shoot it downwards and across to left of the pool of water below.  When a lemming walks upward on the rope, making him diver allow him to dive through the rope and he can end up to the right of the pool of water.  Dive to get across the next pool of water, and finally dive to induce crawling, after which you can scoop.

I'm still not reading your spoiler tag in case there's something else I missed but I doubt it.  Definitely a more interesting solution than my first.

[geoo]

Yes, now this makes use of all the diver-features that my solution makes use of as well.
Only little difference is that I shoot the rope upwards from the bottom instead of downwards from the middle, but it ends up with exactly the same setup for the rest of the level.
The spoiler section only describes my solution a little more detailed.

I didn't really have a look how to fix that backroute, I just couldn't be bothered considering the nature of the level. Reducing the amount of divers should work, yeah.

btw, the color of your previous spoiler tag is a little off

[geoo]

Ok, got a new level with a minimalistic skill set, hopefully not that easy though.

(Please don't backroute it  , I already checked it quite a bit and even mirrored the entire level at some point to prevent a backroute...)

[ccexplore]

(Please don't backroute it  , I already checked it quite a bit and even mirrored the entire level at some point to prevent a backroute...)

Ha ha. Well, no promises.

[edit: um, you tell me if this is a backroute or not... (it's kinda hard to tell with the extremely minimalistic skill set)]

[geoo]

I knew mirroring the level would have a downside...wish I could have the lems just come out facing left.

Anyway, let's try this:

[ccexplore]

Definitely made it harder.  Here's my solution.  I suppose it could be a backroute since it doesn't feel like your usual kind of solution.

[geoo]

Yep, you're right about this, though it's actually a kinda elegant solution.

Ok, I did a change now that eliminates a bunch of possibilities, I didn't want to do it for precisely that reason, but it seems to be the only clean way to eliminate your current solution.

[ccexplore]

Here's the solution I now have, which feels enough like your kind of solutions that I think it's intended.

It might actually be okay to not eliminate my v2 solution if you don't want to, it's arguable whether for most people that solution would be easier to find or not.

[edit: I should also mention that it's a pretty nifty level for how few skills you're given to work with ]

[Clam]

I've been keeping my distance from this lately, but I have looked at all the custom levels from this thread. I saw the auto-filler thingy in a level, and I knew I just had to build a puzzle around it.

So here it is - only my second () L2 custom level.

[ccexplore]

I saw the auto-filler thingy in a level, and I knew I just had to build a puzzle around it.

Wow.  That is truly such an inspired, elegant, brilliant level concept especially given its utter simplicity (for those who haven't tried it yet, let's just say it's so simple conceptually, it's pretty much beyond a doubt backroute-proof, yet you won't be bored by it and hopefully a bit challenged). The pairing of the auto-filler object with that skill was truly a match made in heaven given their complementary functions.   I haven't actually solved it yet in its entirety, though I can pretty much see exactly how to go about solving it, and unlike your last level I would definitely be delighted to execute the complete solution for real at some point.  Cool.

[edit: solution successfully executed.  Worked out even better than it first looked.  Just when I thought I was done and just needed the auto-filler to take its course, it turned out the exit requires some additional special handling as well (talk about a twist! ).  Screenshots available upon request, but really, with so few skills given, people are better off exploring the level on their own.]

So here it is - only my second () L2 custom level.

Well, I think that actually makes you tie me in terms of the number of custom L2 levels created (discounting backroute-elimination variants of my levels), and you handily beat me at number of custom L1 levels.

Sorry that you have to stay away, but it would be a joy to me and others if you ever get back again into the various challenge, glitch-finding, and level designing activities you were so good at. Are you at least still active in multiplayer L++?

[Clam]

Wow.  That is truly such an inspired, elegant, brilliant level concept especially given its utter simplicity

Well what can I say... I'm glad you like it. Thanks!

I did wonder if the execution was a little tough (what with the fiddly fan controls and all), but evidently it's not that great an issue.

Sorry that you have to stay away, but it would be a joy to me and others if you ever get back again into the various challenge, glitch-finding, and level designing activities you were so good at. Are you at least still active in multiplayer L++?

Just burnt out. That's about all there is to it. I'm afraid I've done pretty much nothing lemmings-related in almost 2 months...

[ccexplore]

I did wonder if the execution was a little tough (what with the fiddly fan controls and all), but evidently it's not that great an issue.

Well, one of the things you missed during your burn-out is the discovery of a better way to fan with help of keyboard, in particular the ability to pause without interrupting an ongoing fanning.  So fan controls are no longer quite as fiddly as they once were.

Just to see what it's like, I did have a brief try doing it w/o those techniques.  As expected it was a bit tougher, although I think it becomes more manageable with some practice.  Ultimately the level doesn't require any pixel precision or even any particular fast actions, so it's just a matter of getting comfortable controlling said skill with fan, getting the feel of how to position of the fan relative to the lemming for steering it in various directions.

[Clam]

New level!

Now, you may be wondering how I managed to put together another level already. Well, actually this one was in progress a couple of months ago. (In fact, I recall telling some people about it back then...) I just had to fix it up a little before releasing it.

Don't be put off by its size - it plays pretty fast.

[ccexplore]

Nice medium-difficulty level with decent puzzle and appealing visual design, that should have wide appeal to everyone here.  I also like how you kind of built in certain "clues" into the level's visual design itself.

Any chance your next L2 level will use something other than the Egyptian style?

[Clam]

I also like how you kind of built in certain "clues" into the level's visual design itself.

I figure its only fair to give the player a guide when good placement is needed (like in the grenade level from L3's shadow tribe). If only geoo's "Breeze into the light" had something similar, I might have actually solved it rather than finding the solution and ultimately failing to pull it off after several retries...

[ccexplore]

If only geoo's "Breeze into the light" had something similar, I might have actually solved it rather than finding the solution and ultimately failing to pull it off after several retries...

You're not talking about the throwers for that level are you? Unless you've found another backroute, where you are supposed to use the throwers should be fairly logical based on the structure of the level.  As for other skills, yes, I guess there are one or two moves that are slightly tricky to execute in the intended solution, but I really don't see it being that much harder to work out via experimentation and execute than, say, executing your "what a twist" level w/o using the keyboard to help with fanning.  (The key idea behind the intended solution of course is another matter; my point being that once you have the general idea, I don't think the specifics are that horrific to discover and execute.)

In any event, maybe you should share your solution with geoo (if you haven't already) to see whether you might have found another backroute that he might want to eliminate.  (Assuming you're using V3 of that level of course.)  It's certainly not the first time I complained to geoo about a solution only to discover that it was a backroute or that the intended solution has an easier way.

[Clam]

Solved it now (yes, it is v3)

Yes, the placement of the throwers is logical, but two of them have a very narrow window in which they have to be used. I actually found two ways to handle the ending, but both are tough to execute. Maybe my solution is a backroute?



I'll PM geoo with pics now.

[ccexplore]

two of them have a very narrow window in which they have to be used. I actually found two ways to handle the ending, but both are tough to execute. Maybe my solution is a backroute?

It's true that the intended solution (or at least my solution which was confirmed by geoo to be intended) does happen to have a few skill assignments that are relatively close to one another in timing (but certainly not one frame after another), if that's what you mean.  There may well be ways to make the timing less punishing but I guess geoo didn't find any (or don't want to spend more time on it), and in any event the timing is completely incidental (rather than essential) to the intended solution idea.  Using the keyboard for pausing should help.

It's a little hard to parse based on your description above whether you have an intended solution or a backroute.  I tend to suspect the latter based on your comment about the ending.  Maybe I'll actually revisit the level and see if I can find another way to solve it just for the heck of it (so please don't PM me anything about your current solution, just to geoo).

[geoo]

ccexplore's solution to 'Give-And-Take' is indeed intended. Not sure whether I should keep the other solution in though. Kinda interesting how you estimated correctly for both whether they are backroutes by comparing to my usual solution style. I wouldn't know how to myself.

Yep, ClamSpammer's solution to 'Breeze' is a massive backroute. But as it is so different from what I intended, it's pretty easy to fix (hopefully).
The intended solution is not difficult to execute save for, as ccexplore already mentioned, a few assignments close to each other perhaps (but we're all used to pausing, aren't we?).
There are no explicit hints for the thrower placement as they are, well, implicit.

I actually didn't even notice the placement hints in 'Throw the switch' until ccexplore mentioned them, but it was easy enough without as the placement leaves a lot of room for error. The first one is a bit misleading though, as the runner can advance too far before throwing and just jump off the ledge.
Nice level though, even though the main concept is directly exposed, it still takes some adapting to get along with the given skill set. Just wonder what the 5th thrower is for, just a backup in case you make a mistake, or have I unknowingly found a backroute?

'What a Twist' is really neat in its conceptual simplicity, with a lot of variation of uses for that skill/object combination; it's just a bit annoying to execute, a little less steel might have helped with that. I haven't really found much use for fan-pausing with the twister, actually; twisting upwards is always the most troublesome task, but at least at 45° it's quite managable without pausing.

[Clam]

Just wonder what the 5th thrower is for, just a backup in case you make a mistake, or have I unknowingly found a backroute?

5th thrower is a spare. I'd guess that in most cases using a thrower in the wrong place would force a restart anyway, but it never hurts to have an extra just in case

[ccexplore]

Here comes my bumbling attempt at another L2 custom level.   I didn't even really bother to do much in terms of backroute elimination; I guess that would be you guys' job.

The title references the unfinished, unpolished-looking left side of the level (the 8?  it's a reference to Schubert's "unfinished symphony no 8 in b minor"), although the level is in reality quite finished in terms of the solution I'm aiming at.   Visually however...it may well be that if I have time and if it's feasible, someday I may try to remake this in another tribe.

Yes, the exit floating in mid-air is intentional.  It is usable once you place terrain underneath it at the correct height.

The intended solution should not be frustrating to execute, though there may be skill assignments that happen very closely in time.  Feel free to PM me if you have a solution that is frustrating to execute or feels like it requires "luck"; I can at least save you some time if it turns out to be an unintended backroute.  The intended solution is hopefully not too obvious, but it is certainly nothing as obscure as the trick necessary for my first L2 custom level.

[edit: gold means lose 0 lemmings.  As per current convention, valid solution to a custom level means getting gold on it starting with the standard 60 lemmings.]

[edit2: forgot to mention, but no glitches required.  If your solution features any sort of crawling or ClamSpammer's hopper glitch, then it's definitely a backroute (but do let me know if you find something that interesting... ]

[edit3: removed old version of level, see new post]

[ccexplore]

I reviewed my "unfinished" level a little more, and came up with some changes that preserve my solution but makes the visual appearance a little better (gone is the weird floating exit!).

Since no one has yet downloaded the level when I last check, I've removed the old version of the level (titled "Unfinished Level No. 8" if you somehow downloaded it w/o the forum indicating so).  I've attached the new version of the level here.

I've done absolutely 0 backroute testing on this version, so here's your chance to go wild.   [edit: sorry, but I've just found and hopefully eliminated one backroute.  version v2 uploaded (no one downloaded v1 yet)]  Though if there are really problematic backroutes found, I reserve the option to release the old version of my level.

Again:  gold (aka valid solutions to the level) is lose 0 lemmings, and no glitches required.  You get the exact same set of skills as the old version; I added a few more seconds on the clock because the exit was moved further away.

[edit: since sometimes what constitutes a "glitch" can be arguable, I'll qualify it by saying there's definitely no crawling or use of ClamSpammer's hopper glitch.  Definitely nothing that would defy logic.

However, it appears that the behavior is a little more than meets the eye.  I've added a note below in case you've actually hit what is my intended solution but find that it doesn't seem to be working reliably.  It is coded as a spoiler since it may potentially be a hint to the solution, so it's up to you whether to read it or not (though you most certainly shouldn't read it until you've at least first tried a few approaches on your own):

It appears that despite apperances and my expectation, in the process of doing the moves related to the key part of my solution, depending on how you do it (and there's a smart way and a hard way), one of your lemmings may end up facing either direction with apparently 50% probability, at the moment you assign it a particular skill for which the lemming needs to be facing in the correct direction.  I did not count on that since visually it certainly doesn't look like the lemming is changing its facing direction at all, but I supposed it must be.  If what I just said actually makes sense in the solution you're trying, then you're probably on the right track and just have a bit of bad luck, so don't give up!  If what I said makes absolutely no sense and has no plausibility of happening in your solution, then congratulations (to you anyway), you might be onto a backroute!

]

[geoo]

I found some solution, but I'm not sure whether it is intended or not. There's only one precise move required, but it leaves the rock climber.
Screenshots are attached, solution should be evident from them.

I enjoyed playing this level so far, certainly a variety of paths to think about.

Now I wonder what the original version looked like , as apart from the random trampolines this one is looking pretty clean.

[ccexplore]

Whoops, that's definitely a backroute, though at least it wasn't a frustrating one.

Here's v3.  The change I made to eliminate your backroute was somewhat drastic but I can't think of a more subtle way to eliminate your backroute at the moment.  I also made an additional change unrelated to your backroute, because it turns out the route elimination in v2 doesn't go quite far enough.

[geoo]

Ok, I found a different solution now which might just be the intended one.

Solution should be evident from the screenshots again; coursor is highlighting a lemming before stomping/hopping respectively. These assignments are pretty pixel precise.

Beginning part is a bit messy, but other than that a pretty nice solution.

In my attempts in the previous version I had the last one stomp and land on an arrow, but now having no other use for the kayaker anymore made the landing arrow redundant. Initially I didn't think of fixing the gap.

[ccexplore]

This is not quite my intended solution.  I did some testing yesterday around some of the things you did in your solution, but evidently I wasn't thorough enough, as you still found some locations where certain skill assignments have the desired effect (desired from a backroute-enabling point of view).

Here's v4 which should eliminate the "undesirable" (from my point of view) parts of your current solution.  Good job though with v3 nonetheless.

[ccexplore]

Here's another level for people to scratch their heads over.

Yeah I know, how hypocritical of me, chiding ClamSpammer on his repeated use of Egyptian tribe when this is now my 3rd Sports level.   I guess all I can say is, once you're comfortable with one style in Lemmings 2, it gets harder switching to a brand new style.  And in my defense, for this level, I actually am using objects that are unique to Sports tribe.

Gold requires saving every lemming.  I'll tell you out front that the intended solution does not use every skill given; I purposely threw in some extra skills as a sort of red herring.  However, it turned out that with the extra skills, there's also a lose-1 solution, which isn't a bad solution (though I still like my intended solution way better).  So give yourself a pat in the back if you find the lose-1 solution, and then prepare to go back to square 1 for the true intended solution (which should be very different from the lose-1 solution, unless the lose-1 solution can be turned into a true backroute via some obscure pixel-precise stuff I failed to test).

No glitches required...well definitely no crawling.  The intended solution has some minor behavior that may be slightly counterintuitive in terms of real-life, but not illogical within the lemmings universe.  For example, consider the fact that you can build through a thin platform if you use enough builders.  That is counterintuitive/impossible in real life, but is not exactly what I'd call a glitch.  And that's the extent to which the intended solution may be argued by someone as "glitchy" (I'd say it isn't).

If you're looking for a reprieve from my previous level, I'm sorry, this one will probably be even more difficult to figure out.   I can tell you however that the intended solution is not a case of you having to pick out pixel-precise locations in order to make moves that mostly fails to work in the majority of nearby locations.  But ultimately there's a little bit of precision involved I guess.  The point is, if you're, say, hunting desperately for locations hoping the rope doesn't break when it's breaking in a dozen variations you've already tried, stop trying, it's not what I'm going for.

The intended solution hinges on the ability of one of the skills, a skill whose extent of its ability you may likely underestimate.  It therefore probably helps to experiment a little.  Good luck!

[ccexplore]

Here's v4 which should eliminate the "undesirable" (from my point of view) parts of your current solution.  Good job though with v3 nonetheless.

@geoo: perhaps it's time for you to read my note?  I think the note is written such that if you haven't already been trying stuff relevant to my intended solution, it probably won't be much of a hint.  The reason I made the note is because I worry that you or others may have actually at some point tried some stuff related to my intended solution, but giving up on it too soon because it didn't work out the first few times.  I'll also say that so far you've been heading on the right track.  Good luck!

[geoo]

I found two solutions to 'Remote Control', one a somewhat glitchy backroute with one skill leftover, and the other one I'm pretty certain to be the intended solution (some skills left over, as you said).
It was a bit troublesome to execute, but idea-wise downright ingenious.
Also very elegantly implemented in the level, with your trademark multiple use of one skill, and a lot of alternatives to consider before actually finding what the level is about.

I'll attach the backroute, but send you what I suspect to be intended via PM, just in case.

I've managed to resist the temptation to use the sports style up to now; it's blocky (i.e. easier to design in) yet nice looking. I sure don't mind now already playing the third one in that style, especially if the levels are magnificient like these.

I had some tries at BBL_v4 when you released it, but the trampolines kinda put me off after a while because they are difficult to predict, to see what's possible and what's not. I suspect it's not supposed to be possible to get a lemming down with a single skill, like I did with the hopper. I hope to get around to having another try later today or tomorrow, and read your note.

[ccexplore]

Huh, well that's an annoying backroute, but good job for finding it.

The solution you send me in PM is extremely close to the intended solution. Your solution also shows that I probably won't be able to fully enforce my own solution anyway.

So here's "Remote Control (Part 2)", with a slight terrain and skill change that should eliminate the backroute and narrow the set of possible solutions to become somewhat closer to my intended one.  (Though I was also forced to add skills, so there could well be new backroutes...)  I'm not calling this v2 because despite all these alternative solutions you found, they are interesting enough that I'd rather keep them in, making part 2 as a "separate" level instead.  Given how close you got with Part 1, it probably shouldn't take you too long to adapt your solution to part 2.

[ccexplore]

I had some tries at BBL_v4 when you released it, but the trampolines kinda put me off after a while because they are difficult to predict, to see what's possible and what's not. I suspect it's not supposed to be possible to get a lemming down with a single skill, like I did with the hopper. I hope to get around to having another try later today or tomorrow, and read your note.

Ah I see.  Sorry about that, the trampolines were not supposed to be such an annoying element to the level, in fact it was rather a bit of an afterthought.

You definitely do not need to hunt around some magical pixel-precise location to make use of the trampolines, like you did with the hopper.  That said, you don't need any ultra-complicated setup with the left side in order to make use of the trampolines either.  My note doesn't help with the trampolines, so I've put an additional hint below related to the trampolines in case one wants it.

I'm hoping that the fact I shortened the rope on the left, instead of completely eliminating it, would be a slight clue to how the trampolines work in the intended solution.  One single skill (not the hopper) applied to the general trampolines area, with no pixel-precision required, is sufficient to do basically what you did in your v3 solution.

Now the real spoiler:  in the intended solution, after you set up the trampoline area properly with one skill, the lemming simply falls off the left edge of the original terrain to successfully use the trampolines.

[geoo]

Ok yeah, I found a solution to part 2 as well. I'm not sure whether the spearer is necessary, but I didn't get the standard setup working (like in my solution to part 1) likely due to a start position offset.
Overall it was nicer to execute that the solution for part 1.
Sending via PM again.

After reading the first line of your trampoline hint, I had another try at an idea I discarded earlier, I had just massively overcomplicated things previously. Subsequently got the setup working, and reading the rest of the hint I guess it matches what you have intended. In hindsight it's far from an obscure setup, perhaps I just put it aside too early. It's good to know that I won't have to try all kinds of stuff with the trampolines now.
I got a lose 2 solution now, which fails due to the timing not working out.
Got to look whether I can find something else still. The note at least doesn't seem to match (and the only thing I can currently think of matching it is a rock climber stuck in a wall x_x).

[geoo]

Ok, I found a solution to BBL v4 now. There's one skill left over, however my solution complies with your note. The behaviour used is a bit obscure, but at least I was familiar with it. Tricky one.

I use an archer to have one lemming stand still while sand is being poured over him. He has to be assigned climber beforehand to get stuck in the sand hill, as otherwise he'd just crawl out. Having him stomp is then where ccexplore's note applies to. The rest is evident from the screenshots.

[ccexplore]

@geoo: Ding-ding-ding-ding-ding!!!!  Yep, you finally got it, good job!   I was beginning to wonder if I was going to have to wait until after my travels to hear back from you.

Since you asked about the original version with its weird floating exit, I've attached here a screenshot of it.  Other people can feel free to look at it since I don't think it's so different that it'd give much away in terms of hints.  I'll PM you with some additional stuff (including the thing about the leftover skill).

[geoo]

There's indeed not a lot been going on during your absence.
I conceptualized a level though which I finally got around to implement. I fear the terrain might give away a lot of the solution, but we'll see.

[ccexplore]

If my attached solution is your intended solution (all skills used and elegant solution, so that's a good sign?), then I suppose yes, one could say the terrain probably does give away various parts of the solution here and there, but really, that tends to be the case anyway for the typical uses of some of the given skills.

Still, while only a "medium-difficulty" level (as opposed to something like "breeze into the light" or "not a lot to go on"), it's a nice, fun puzzle nonetheless ; there were still a thing or two I tried before settling onto the attached solution.  I can see this level as something that would be a natural fit for an official L2 level.

[geoo]

Actually, your solution is a backroute, but a nice one. (Both in itself and in that I think it should be easy to fix. )
I didn't take this pourer behaviour into account, so I lowered (what was I thinking . As no-one downloaded it yet, I just replaced it) heightened the Pi a bit now.

I'm glad you enjoyed it up to now, hope it'll stay like this with the next version.

[ccexplore]

Well, bad news for you, here are 3 more backroutes so far (all of which works in ATS v1 by the way).  Actually "backroute2" does use all skills, so I'm only guessing that it's still a backroute.

[ccexplore]

Wow, I guess the bad news was worse than I expected.  Had I totally killed your level concept?!?

In the meanwhile, here's an implementation of a level concept I had while I was away in May.  Good news and bad news:

good news:  finally, a ccexplore level not using the Sports tribe!
bad news:  ...it uses the Egyptian tribe

Though in my defense, after the level was created in Egyptian, I did take a brief look at a few other tribes to get a feel for how they'd look, and I still think the level would look best in Egyptian.

Gold is saving all lemmings.  Per Egyptian convention, the blue cane/"walking stick" thingie on the upper right is background, while everything else that doesn't animate are terrain.

Some of you may be nervous about the ballooner skill in this level, in terms of execution.  While the balloon manipulation will likely be somewhat harder than in a typical official L2 level, it's not meant to be challenge-hard:

- you don't need crazy mad skillz with balloon-steering like in my min-skill solution to Space 5 or Sports 7.  There's a reason that the terrain has been set up to make the balloon not fit through the places you'd probably want it to.  Try being more gentle with the fan if you're constantly blowing your ballooner into a side wall by accident.

- you don't have to hold the ballooner at a fixed position for an extended period of time with the fan, while doing other stuff.  I mean, I guess you could execute it that way too in my intended solution, but there's a smarter way.

Anyway, good luck!

[geoo]

Wow, I guess the bad news was worse than I expected.  Had I totally killed your level concept?!?

Well, pretty much. At some point I even contemplated redesigning it in the sports tribe.  One of your backroutes also made me realize how overly complicated my intended solution is. When I had thought I had eliminated that nasty backroute, there was still some tricky way to pull it off, not possible to eliminate by a mere terrain change. So the new version comes without the thrower, and with a new name. It's got also a bit more difficult to execute now, but I'm glad it's working at least now. And if the terrain didn't show off the solution too clearly in the previous versions, now it most definately does (I guess).

Had a short glance at your new level, but no results yet.

[ccexplore]

Truly sorry to report this so soon after you released ATS v3, but your latest version fail to eliminate my "backroute3".  See attached screenshots and spoiler:

Instead of pouring the glue after the bashing breaks through, start pouring glue with someone from the crowd closely behind the basher, just a little before the basher breaks through.  This will "burn off" a number of glue pixels, namely the ones that solidified because they've hit the end of basher's tunnel before the basher broke through.  This shortens the glue platform so that it doesn't overreach and miss the exit.  See screenshots.

On the plus side, I haven't found your intended solution yet.  Granted, I haven't spent much time with the level yet, but at least this means your changes did not make your intended solution jump out at me at first glance, as you may have feared.  That said, I guess sooner or later, I'm bound to pick up a clue based on clearly seeing what you've changed and haven't changed.

[ccexplore]

Ok, some good news for you at last:  I think I've finally found your intended solution for ATS!  See attached.

I've cross-checked with v2 and v1 and can see how to adapt (see spoiler) the solution concept on those versions, which boosts my confidence that this is what you intended.

The idea is to start the stacker at a location of a given ceiling height that will naturally stop the stacker such that he ends up facing right.  In v3 this is done by taking advantage of the terrain change, whereas in v1 and v2 you'd throw a stone onto the ceiling, lowering the height at the spot it sticks to.

[edit: actually, now that I think of it, in v1/v2 I could simply make the stacker throw the ball to stop stacking, once he has stacked high enough and is facing right.  Huh.  Did you overlook this?]

It turns out to be a complete accident/coincidence that it took this long for me find the solution:

Early on when I tried using a hopper to get to the top of the "Pi", I just missed it.  I guess apparently I didn't start hopping from the very tip of the green triangle.  But because I missed the Pi with the hopper, I thought it wasn't supposed to be reachable that way, so naturally I quickly ended up looking for other solutions instead, resulting in the various backroutes I've reported.

[geoo]

And I had hoped I had eliminated the backroute by removing the thrower...only thought of stopping the glue pourer by having him hit his head at the stone, but not by removing the glue with the basher.

I was pretty much out of ideas how to cope with it, but I went back to version 2 and I thought up something new now. Hope the laser blaster doesn't open up another can of worms.
I'm somewhat more confident again now.

What you thought to be the intended solution is...well, another backroute. But I think by the one change to eliminate that other backroute, I got this one as well.

[geoo]

Found most likely the intended solution to "Can't fit thru!" now. Nicely conceiled in an elegant and minimalistic level.

After unsucessfully messing for a while, I actually solved this level using an analytical branch-and-bound approach:

After having deduced that I'd have to use the filler to free the crowd and that it can be done once the route is completely set up, as well as using the jumper to get the hero out of the pit (as the ballooner is merely as powerful as the jumper in that situation), I went on trying to eliminate the possibility of using two heroes, when I noticed I had already found the solution on this branch.

[ccexplore]

Yes, you got it.  Glad you enjoy the level.  Being conceived during my vacation, it was definitely meant to be a comparatively less complex (but still nontrivial) solution and less saddled with red herrings, which has the nice side benefit of allowing me more time to focus on visuals during implementation.

=================

Now, back to your level.  Clearly the Highland tribe is a cursed tribe (damn Scots! Just kidding), since the last time I was so plagued with backroutes with one of my levels, it was the "Pour me another!" level I did back around I.S.'s birthday, and lo and behold that was a Highland level also.

Anyway, your latest level fails to eliminate neither "backroute3" nor the new solution that turned out to be a backroute, thanks in part to the increase in the skillset, though you may be surprised to learn that I don't need the laser blaster for either one.  The spoiler provides additional explanation:

I was a bit surprised at the addition you made at the upper-right part of the level, but for better or worse, it didn't take too long for me to find a way out of that.  Making use of the arguable glitch that a hopper can hop through a trampoline without triggering it (as long as it's still in the "hopping" stance and hasn't transitioned into the "falling on my ass" stance once it falls too far down), the screenshots show how I use the re-introduced thrower to allow the hopper to eventually hop through the trampoline.

I also used another hopper to stop the stomper (whereas before it stops naturally by hitting steel).  While the resulting timing is slightly different (probably because I assigned basher to the hopper instead of someone in the crowd), the "pour glue before basher breaks through" trick still manages to work out.  And actually, the laser blaster also provides an alternate way to deal with the glue platform going "too far", details left as an exercise to you.

As for the more recent solution where I hop onto the "Pi", pour glue and stack, the extra skills you've given me now allows me to simply stop the stacker with a hopper (you can also use the laser blaster for that I guess).

If I have to guess, perhaps you didn't go far enough with your latest changes?  Or is it somehow intended that I could get around your latest changes this way?

[edit: ATS4 also allows the "ATS2_backroute1" backroute to work without any modification, but that's probably because you forgot to put back in some of the changes you made in ATS3 that killed that backroute]

[geoo]

Ok then, here's what version 4 was supposed to be. Yeah, Highland is cursed, and difficult to work with (especially the bumpy pieces) to boot. I should take the easy road and just design in Sports and Egyptian.

"fails to eliminate neither" sounded good at first read ...the trampoline construction was obviously not supposed to be worked around like that. You're supposed to send two lems there so that one can fall through and free the other one with the laser blaster. And I think under that premise none of the backroutes should work. (Apart from, of course, backroute1, which I was 100% sure to have eliminated by moving the steel down, which I yet didn't do apparently. Oh well...)

[ccexplore]

I see.  You needn't have actually explained what you intended with the trampoline, since AFAIK your changes in ATS5 does eliminate at least the specific workaround I used in ATS4.  Anyhow, I'll try again and see what I come up with this time around.

[ccexplore]

Sorry, the Highland Curse continues even with ATS5.  Although your changes do eliminate my workaround in ATS4, it didn't do much to actually eliminate the two backroutes in question ("ATS2_backroute3" and the more recent one that I mistakenly thought was intended), though I guess you can say it has make things more interesting for them.  See attached and spoilers:

The "glue-pour before basher breaks through" backroute ("backroute1"):  instead of having the last lemming out stack to get up, have the 3rd-to-last lemming out stack midway between the two platforms above, as in screenshot A.  This will also turn around last lemming out.  Have stacker hop onto the right once he gets high enough (screenshot B).  Later, have the last lemming out (the one that was turned around by the stack) hop onto the left platform; he'll continue hopping onto the stack and onto the right platform (screenshot C).  The rest plays out just as before, with the exception of dealing with the trampoline in the manner you described.  Oh, and the stomper stops stomping by assigning him thrower.

The "hop to the Pi, pour glue, stack and turn around" backroute ("backroute2"):  8th and 9th lemmings out will hop onto the platform above, around the same time 2nd lemming out will throw the spear while standing between platforms (screenshot A).  Don't assign the stomper until he has just turned around facing right (screenshot B).  Have the stomper keep stomping until just before it would be impossible to bash all the way to the right, then assign him basher (screenshot D).  As you can see with screenshot E, in the race against time between the basher and the hero lemmings, the hero lemmings readily win. [edit2: in fact, the heroes still win even if I started bashing sooner.  I added 2 screenshots ("ats5_backroute2b_1" and "..._2") illustrating this.]
[edit3: now I manage to use one less skill for this solution, taking advantage of the fact that if the lemming is assigned thrower while still standing on the sloped part of the red triangle of the "Pi", the stone will simply stick to the slope and will therefore turn around the lemming.  See added screenshots ("ats5_backroute2c_X") in the zip file]

[edit: and it turns out "ats2_backroute1" can still be adapted to ATS5, due to another change from ATS3 you haven't incorporated back to ATS5.  See attached "ats5_backroute3".]

[edit2: added screenshots for a minor variation for "ats5_backroute2", see spoilers for details]

[edit3: now I manage to use one less skill for "ats5_backroute2", see spoilers for details]

[geoo]

Ok, I noticed some substantial flaws, and here's another version, slightly different, but still featuring all the main tricks. As the previous one with a version number divisible by 3, this one has a different name again.

Thanks for still not getting tired of this level ; I'm gradually doing so...

[ccexplore]

Thanks for still not getting tired of this level ; I'm gradually doing so...

Ha, I was afraid that you did get tired and has given up on it.  But to put a positive spin on things, we can at least say that despite your fears, so far (I haven't downloaded ATS6 yet) your intended solution is anything but obvious from the look of the level, even when I have actually tried to find something different.

[ccexplore]

ATS6 continues to have me come up with backroutes while really making me scratch my head over the intended solution (so, bad and good I guess).  On the other hand, the backroutes have gotten yet tougher to execute, now requiring some pixel-precision here and there (see spoilers).  In fact, technically I've confirmed neither backroutes because there's "luck" at the end of both in assigning a right-facing lemming in the crowd the fencer, and I've been unlucky so far.

Even if you choose not to eliminate them, I'll definitely continue to try to work out what you intended solution is, given how long it has eluded me so far.  For once, the silence on this thread will be coming from my end, as I puzzle myself over your level.

[edit: added some additional stuff on "backroute2" that you might want to watch out for, see spoilers]

backroute1:  your terrain changes almost eliminated this "backroute which wouldn't die": the solution where a spear is thrown for later glue-pouring, and you start pouring glue while the basher/fencer is almost but not completely broken through to burn off some glue-pixels.  Nevertheless, I still found a position for the stacker that works for ATS6, but now some moves need to be done at pixel-precise locations.  See screenshots B and C in "ATS6_backroute1.zip".  I wasn't able to fully confirmed this solution because of the luck required in selecting a right-facing lemming for the fencing, so I'm not 100% sure whether the glue burn-off still works out correctly now that the basher is replaced with the upward-sloping fencer.

backroute2:  new backroute not possible in previous versions of level.  Yet probably not hard to eliminate?  It's very similar to backroute1, except the stacker starts further to the right and serves to trap everyone (screenshots A).  For glue-pouring on the spear, we now use the last hopper to send one more lemming up to the top, and have him pour glue at the precise position shown in screenshot D.  This will burn off just enough glue pixels so that the remaining glue that falls down onto the spear and extends off of it will just barely fall short of reaching the green triangle (screenshot F).  As seen in screenshot E, the glue-pouring lemming will then stomp down so he can fall safely onto the spear (as well as removing the wall blocking the crowd from reaching the spear).  Free the crowd by fencing through the stack.

[edit: additional variations on backroute2 you may want to look out for.  I haven't even tried any of them yet but they look plausible enough that you might want to take them into account when doing backroute elimination.  (So bad news, maybe not that easy to eliminate after all...)

a) by starting to pour a little earlier, you can burn off even more glue, but the glue will block the lemming and make him turn left.  He will then walk up to the dog (I think) and fall off of its nose.  Looking at it in the editor, I think the fall is not fatal.  If the stack started a little bit further to the left, he can then turn around at the stack, head right, and stomp away the wall without starting all the way from the top of the glue.

b) even if it's not possible to move the stack further left (so that when the lemming falls off the dog's nose, he merges with the crowd), an alternative is to have the last lemming out start fencing at the bottom of the valley left of and closest to the crowd's pit.  My hope is that the fencing can continue until it breaks through both the left wall of the pit as well as the stack.  That way, the crowd will head left initially (I guess depending on how the fencer breaks through), isolating the fencer to do the stomping-away of the wall.

[geoo]

Ok, without much ado (I'm too tired to write much right now), here comes version 7.

I'm glad you're not withholding the intended solution just to tease me , but are determined to actually find it. You're not that far away, actually.

[ccexplore]

Ok, let's see if I finally have it this time.  This is rather close to one of the "ATS6_backroute2" variations, but since you did say I'm not that far off, maybe this is it after all?  The spoiler has additional explanations.

This is basically the variation where a lemming pour from all the way up top, turn around to the dog, and falls off its nose landing on the stack that is trapping the other lemmings.  The stack is then stomped away, and as soon as one lemming gets as close as possible to the thin bit of wall blocking a direct fall onto the spears, stomp (screenshot F).  A few lemmings may turn around, but the entire column will have been completely stomped away just in time for those lemmings (screenshot G).

I expected the stomper of the stack to go all the way to the bottom, where you'd use the kayaker to get him to the other exit.  But as it turned out, because of the particular positioning of the stack on the slope and where I started stomping the stack, there's a natural 1-pixel gap between the bottom of the stack and the slope, which naturally stops the stomping at the right moment.

Whether this is the intended solution or not, let me note that I don't feel entirely through investigating backroutes yet, particularly any new ones that may have been made possible by your recent changes.  But I must rest now.

[geoo]

Yep, that's the intended solution; you also got the purpose of the kayaker right in your notes.

If you still intend to go on backroute hunt, I think I'll only fix more backroutes if I see an easy way to do so, lest I open up new one.

[ccexplore]

Actually, before I hunt for backroutes, I'm going to first revisit the old versions to get a sense of how the solution would be adapted to them. The current solution seems to depend on some changes you only introduced starting at ATS6 I think.  I know previous versions have extra skills and such, but I'm not sure off top of my head that it would quite compensate.

At least now that we've gone through all this to enforce the intended solution, it does make for a very nice level with many potential routes to consider, but (hopefully) only one working route that has some non-obvious skill usages.   And hey, we finally manage to make a level in Highland tribe that looks and plays decent!

[geoo]

Yeah, from 5 to 6 I changed the solution to some extend, because I didn't want to keep my initial flawed solution just for the sake of keeping it.

I used the stomper's tunnel for the entire crowd, however wanted to force that they'll enter it mid-way after walking towards the right and back.

I'm glad you like the solution in the end, so it was perhaps worth the effort of changing it over and over again. The Highland terrain is pretty difficult to work with, unless you want to restrain yourself to only using the blocks (in which case you could simply use Sports or Egyptian tribe instead ).

I already got a new one which might be somewhat tricky. I went the easy road and chose Egyptian this time, which also has a clean record when it comes to backroutes, so that might be a good omen. One note: despite the roper, you're not supposed to apply crawling " title="Angry" class="smiley" />; I hope the secondary platforms under the entrance and exit prevent that.

[ccexplore]

I already got a new one which might be somewhat tricky.

Wow, you will be so embarassed by this backroute.

Nice title though tying in with recent movies.  (Disclaimer: I have not seen the movie myself, and I am generally highly suspicious of movies based off of video games anyhow.)

[geoo]

Ok yes, that is such an embarassing backroute...at some point I thought I had taken platforming there into account, but somehow I neglegted it again.... 

Just as precaution, I'll provide two new versions at once: SOT2 is a slightly modified version in the hope to fix the backroute, but possibly still prone to some of the kind. SOT2_2 should be a fool-proof version of it, just visually less appealing, as I removed the pyramids there. You can ignore SOT2 if you want, it'd just be a nicer version to have visually.

[ccexplore]

Ah, much better.  Is this it?  (See attached.)

Very nice minimalistic level that looks impossible at first glance, and requires some thinking and experimenting (including precise, clever use of skills) to work out the solution.

I've actually only looked at version 2_2, but I think it might actually be better in some ways, that the pyramids are removed.  It gives a more dramatic, striking impression of "impossible at first glance" look to the level, at only the slight expense of giving less possibilities for the player to try.

[geoo]

Ah nice! Not quite what I intended, but not that far off either.

Yeah, perhaps the version with the removed pyramids isn't that bad, "impossible at first glance" is actually a trait I like about levels.

[ccexplore]

This must be it then.  Nice! And I just noticed now the additional meaning in the title... ;-)

[geoo]

Hahaha, I'm surprised there are so many solutions to such an 'impossible' level.

Pretty nifty solution, I didn't expect the rope to reach that far. 
And yep, I chose the title with that in mind :-)

[ccexplore]

Hmm, not sure if this is your intended solution or not.  If it isn't, then this is probably way more awesome than your actual solution.   Either way my jaws drop.

The key moves, in sequence, are:
  1) assign the sand pourer exactly as in screenshot A
  2) assign the platformer exactly as in screenshot B
  3) assign the roper exactly as in screenshot C
  4) well before the roper is ready, assign the flamethrower exactly as in screenshot D
  5) aim the roper exactly as in screenshot E

Moves 1-4 are pretty close to each other in time, so be ready to pause immediately after each step.

This makes use of the fact/glitch that both the sand pourer and the platformer can continue working while standing on thin air, as is the case when the flamethrower takes out the ground they stand on.  The flamethrower's purpose is to unblock the flow of sand otherwise blocked by the platformer's 1st brick (while leaving most of the platformer's platform undisturbed).  The rope will catch onto the platformer's 2nd brick, just in time to catch the last bits of sand (screenshot F), leading them down to free the lemmings on the left pit (screenshot G).

The reason moves 3 and 4 are in the order given is because if we assign the roper last, the rope forms too late to catch sand (at least the time I tried it that way; it could just be my mistake).

[geoo]

Yep, this is what I intended for this level, thanks for the compliment. You seem to have found it pretty quickly.

The only thing I do differently in execution is that I switch step 2 and 3.

[ccexplore]

Ok, my latest custom L2 level is finally ready; I've been working on and off on this over the past months or so.  This time I've chosen (originally for puzzle reasons) the Shadow tribe, which actually is pretty good for level design in terms of availability of "straight" pieces.  The only con to working with that tribe, and this is partly a deficiency with GP's editor, is that because everything's in shades of dark blue, it can be very difficult to tell visually what the various tiles look like until you put it into the level.  It's also not a great style to use obviously if you crave color, but I find myself generally pretty uncoordinated color-wise anyway.

Gold is save all lemmings.  The title "Mission: Impossible?" actually was inspired by the theme music of the Shadow tribe, but I can easily understand if you think it refers to the level's difficulty.   Actually, I have to say I'm a bit ambivalent about the intended solution.  You know it's worrisome when even the level creator usually takes half a dozen or so tries to successfully execute the intended solution.   Part of it I'll say is necessary evil for the intended solution (which sounded good on paper, I swear ), although I suppose there are one or two places where it might be possible to ease up on precision, though doing so may require doing things like changing the level's visual design or adding skills, which I decided to be problematic.  At least now that I've introduced a good way to frame-step in DOSBox, hopefully it'll help keep down the frustration level resulting from some of the precision.  I'll also say that this level is not a case of precision for precision's sake, at least not intentionally, so think twice if you find your solution seems to feature precision that exists for no good reason.

I've taken some time at backroute elimination and managed to convince myself that despite a number of potential backroutes, they do not actually work due to lack of skills.  Of course, level creators are the worst when it comes to judging backroutes of their own levels, so feel free to prove me wrong!  I might even feel pity at the slight difficulty at executing the intended solution and give you a free pass on it.   (Nah.)

Oh, one more thing:  the Shadow tribe is notorious for having lots of background graphics, and it's not always obvious what is background and what isn't.  Therefore, I've attached a screenshot of the level in GP editor's "reveal mode" so there's no question as to what's what.  You'll note that just as before, I've kept the usage of foreground vs background graphics absolutely consistent with how the official L2 levels do it in the Shadow tribe.  The background graphics are definitely very helpful in this level visual-design-wise, as the general form of the level naturally leads to certain areas that would otherwise be somewhat empty.

Good luck!

[edit: forgot to mention, feel free to PM me if you want to know you're on the right track with a solution that you just have trouble executing]

[edit2: another random thought:  feel free to add a superlemming or two to the level if you feel it helps you explore various areas in the level (obviously any solutions that need the extra skills don't count).  I'd argue you don't really need this because I think you still have enough skills to get at least one lemming to just about anywhere in the level, but hey, whatever helps.]

[ccexplore]

So the new version comes without the thrower, and with a new name.

I can't believe it took me this long to realize the meaning behind the new name.   It only hit me today when I was browsing through the official (mostly) levels for design ideas, and by chance ran into one of the levels I previously replaced with a version of ATS with that title, and for no particular reason*, finally noticed a little detail (no pun intended, but whatever) about it:

Compare the dog on geoo's level with one from the official level.

I'm amazed how well that tile substitution works, it looks completely seamless.

*Actually that's not entirely accurate.  I actually first looked at the dog from an official level to study some pixel-level details related to walkability, when I noticed that the tail should've prevented me from walking up the dog like I could in geoo's level.  And that's how I was led to compare the two.

[ccexplore]

Yet another new level!

It may be surprising that I ended up picking the cursed Highland Tribe for this.  But the more surprising thing is that it may well be the most suitable style for my level--it seems my original level idea puts a lot of requirements on what terrain and objects the style needs to offer.  In any case it works out for the best, as using the Highland style actually helped led me to come up with a trickier solution than what I originally planned.

Gold is saving all lemmings.  Some pixel precision required (but not arbitrary) so feel free to frame-step, and to PM me if you want to avoid wasting time on "the wrong track".  No outrageous glitches, but you do need to know (or discover during play) the subtleties of some of the skills offered.  You also shouldn't need to make moves that require "luck"--if you find yourself doing that, try varying the details of other moves to eliminate the need for such "luck".

Despite Highland's poor track record, hopefully there are no backroutes this time--we'll see......

Oh, and clouds are background while everything else are terrain.  The dog is also terrain which, while not consistent with many of the official Highland levels, does have a precedent in Highland 8, not to mention various custom levels of other people.  Good luck!

[ccexplore]

Here's something a little different.  I figure that since there are so few people designing custom L2 levels at the moment, in the interest of fairness and diversity, we need to offer some more, well, down-to-earth levels.  At least once in a while.  Something more like ClamSpammer's "Throw the Switch" level, say, or Dullstar's "Cascade II", to balance out some of the more brain-twisting levels.

Thus this level.  Not sure how I'd rate the difficulty, but it should be a breather compare to my previous two levels.  Gold is saving all lemmings, and it should be obvious what's terrain and what's not (just check with the level preview).  Enjoy!

Since the level wasn't designed on the outset with a single solution in mind, it's possible that there are multiple solutions to the level (though perhaps not, given the limited skillset and simple design).

[weirdybeardy]

Hi guys. I haven't been here for a while so I'm really glad this thread is still alive!  You might not remember me; about a year ago when the L2 custom thread was young I designed a couple of mediocre levels. "The Diptych" was one of mine; probably my least-crappy.  I've also got some L1 levels in the Archive, but some of those are even worse!

Anyway, I'm loving being a lurker! And yes, I'm still downloading the levels that appear up here. @ccexplore: Looks like you're on a roll! 

Bye for now.

[ccexplore]

Any chance you'll make another level sometime?  I don't think your levels were mediocre at all, they might not be brilliant but they're still fun to play.  Perhaps you should talk to geoo about his L++ levels--he might not advertise it heavily, but there are definitely some "late night" levels he has made that are deliberately more on the silly side.

I don't know if I'll say the thread is still alive, it's really only alive at this point by virtue of me and geoo ; I do wish more people would participate in this.

[geoo]

Yes, finally got that final twist to get 60/60 in 'Hi Nessie':

Stomp away a bit of the ball, and then have one lemming from the crowd rope forward at the very edge of the ball. The anchor will make the lemmings walk through the ball, while the rope will go through the ball as well. Ensure that no lemming drowns before the rope is set.

This level sure is a box of tricks.

'Mission Impossible' looks exciting, as the general route is not as clear here. There's a lot of possibilities to examine. Still got to have a proper look at it (though preferably not before Wednesday), I didn't see a viable approach on first glance yet.

Nice to see you again weirdy! I remember enjoying your levels, in particular the circus and shadow level gave me some trouble back then, and 'The Diptych' was pretty tricky as well.
I think your levels might be appealing to a broader audience than the ultra-hard levels ccexplore and me have been challenging each other with lately (except for TAGC, which is a nice and elementary puzzle, and perhaps 'Recycling Plant' mainly focusing on one central idea). So don't hesitate to get going again, perhaps this will draw some more interest into this thread again.

You remind me, I think I haven't really played your L1 packs yet (I remember 'Death or Glory' for some reason though). Some of them seem a bit builder-heavy, but I like the designs (not just the visuals, but also the underlying ideas). I think I should still give them a whirl.

Oh, and I think weirdy's levels are definately not in the realm of silliness that ours (i.e mostly mine and Simon's) late-night levels are... But if you (weirdy) are interested regardless, give me a note.

[ccexplore]

Oh, and I think weirdy's levels are definately not in the realm of silliness that ours (i.e mostly mine and Simon's) late-night levels are...

Yes, sorry if someone misread my comment, but I wasn't trying to compare weirdy's levels to something like geoo's "what a carsome level".  Instead I just mean that even someone like geoo is perfectly capable of levels like "what a carsome level" , so there's absolutely no reason for anyone to feel the need to hold back on this thread.

And good job to geoo ; Nessie's very happy to finally be visited by all 60 lemmings from across the pond.

[weirdybeardy]

Well, you guys are definitely encouraging!  I have to say, I decided to make a re-appearance because every few months I do tend to re-catch the Lemmings bug and become very enthusiastic for a while. I was hesitant to say "Yeah, sure I'll do some more levels" because I know from past experience that when I decide to put the effort into something fun like building some custom L2 levels, everyday-life has an annoying tendency to drop a truck-load of everyday-life stuff in my lap to deal with which just gets in the way or totally zaps my motivation. I always figured it was better to give a non-commital "maybe" and see what happens than tempt fate and say "definitely" and then have nothing materialise at all.

I have no idea if that paragraph made any sense!  Having said that, you fellas are being very encouraging, as I mentioned above. Encouraging enough to change my "maybe" into a "probably". It'll take me a little time to get to grips with GuyPerfect's excellent editor once more, but with the right attitude I'm sure I can scrape something together.

I like the open, free-for-all attitude when it comes to level designing. It inspires people instead of alienating them. You guys are the masters, I'm more of a padawan learner.  But I still feel like I can put together the kind of level that wouldn't look out of place in a L2 fan-game, if you catch my drift. My levels might not meet the uber-challenging standard of a lot of the custom-level supremos you find on these boards, but if they're fun to play and cause a few minutes of head-scratching, then I'm good. Plus I like levels to look pretty.  Backroutes don't bother me so much.

You guys make the hard levels, I'll do the medium ones. 

And yes, I think I'll see what I can come up with. I wouldn't be writing this rambling message if I wasn't interested...! 

[weirdybeardy]

Oh dear, I just remembered how embarrassing some of my L1 levels are.  Eh, I guess it's not for me to judge. But yeah, "Death or Glory!" is my best. "Riddle Me This" ain't bad either.

I wonder if more would come to this thread if they didn't feel pressured to create amazing levels right off the bat. Case in point: Giga. Despite what you may or may not think about his approach to things (  ), you can't deny his enthusiasm, and any enthusiasm for a classic computer game that's two decades old is a good thing if you ask me.

Oops, I didn't meant to get all soap-boxy just then. What I mean is, less pressure to make levels that are very difficult might broaden the L2 custom thread. Some of my favourite levels from L2 itself are actually some of the easier ones... You get me?

[weirdybeardy]

One more thing: at the moment my gaming time is divided between Lemmings and Killzone 2 on the PS3.  Which might not help. But I dunno if I'm really feeling the FPS vibe these days. I only started playing it 'cos I bought it with the PS3 and it's been sitting on my shelf gathering dust for months and I never actually played it yet.    Playing a game because you feel like you should isn't always an altogether fun experience...!

[ccexplore]

I have no idea if that paragraph made any sense! 

Actually it makes a lot of sense.  The fact is, the time I spent in making levels tends to cut into time that I should've been working, socializing, and to say nothing of sleeping.

It's good to know that you've merely been distracted with loads of fun non-Lemmings stuff, as opposed to have totally moved on.   Actually I think the same (ie. distraction) goes for a lot of people on the forum.

[weirdybeardy]

Me again!  I've been collecting the customised levels for L2 that people (including myself) have been creating, and gradually replacing the original levels (backed-up, of course) with the new ones in order to create a sort of "Customised Lemmings 2: The Tribes". The difficulty curve isn't always consistent - swerving from ultra-hard one level to easy-peasy-lemon-backroutey the next - but it's fun to fill out the level slots with brand new titles. I've collected over 30 levels so far and I thought now might be a good time to take stock of them. It's nice to see that each tribe has at least one level, with Egyptian and Sports being the most popular, and Shadow and Highland not far behind...! 

And here's how it looks:


BEACH:
"The Clam Spammer" by GuyPerfect

OUTDOOR:
"Recycling Plant" by geoo
"Compression Convergence" by geoo

EGYPTIAN:
"Wall Crawler" by Clam Spammer
"The Diver Level" by geoo
"What a Twist!" by Clam Spammer
"Throw the Switch" by Clam Spammer
"Can't Fit Thru!" by ccexplore
"Sands of Time" by geoo

MEDIEVAL:
"Fierljeppen!" by geoo
"Friendly Fire" by geoo

CLASSIC:
"Always The Long Route" by GuyPerfect
"Cascade II" by Dullstar

CIRCUS:
"The Show Must Go On!" by weirdybeardy   

HIGHLAND:
"Oot 'n' Aboot!" by weirdybeardy
"Pour Me Another!" by ccexplore
"De-Tailed Design" by geoo
"Say Hi To Nessie" by ccexplore

POLAR:
"Ahm Reet Nithered!" by weirdybeardy
"Sixty Below Zero" by weirdybeardy

SPACE:
"Breeze into the Light" by geoo
"Towards a Common Goal" by ccexplore
"Not so Glued to the Goal" by Simon

CAVELEM:
"Spelunk 'n' Dunk" by GuyPerfect
"Give-And-Take" by geoo

SHADOW:
"You Only Lem Twice" by weirdybeardy
"Ticking Bomb (part 1)" by geoo
"Ticking Bomb (part 2)" by geoo
"Mission: Impossible?" by ccexplore

SPORTS:
"The Diptych" by weirdybeardy
"Not A Lot To Go On" by ccexplore
"Back Before Long" by ccexplore
"Remote Control" by ccexplore
"Remote Control (Part 2)" by ccexplore

[ccexplore]

I believe "The Diver Level" and the two "Ticking Bomb" levels are geoo's.

Wow, 30 levels already huh?  Didn't realize we're already 1/4 the way from the original 120.

[geoo]

Yeah, they are, though they aren't my best ones, so I'm not too concerned if you'd snatch the credits from me (especially the first one ).

I see there's only one level for each of my two favourite tribes, and each even by me...I think I've got an idea for a new Medieval level (one playable for everyone), though I think I'll wait until at least Wednesday.

If we're really going for a set of 120 new levels, we should perhaps have a look at this list when we choose the style, unless we want the last few levels of Outdoor being made in the Egyptian style with a somewhat messed up preview...
In that case a separate topic for this list might be suitable as well.
There's also another secret space level. And a new step in steganography. d:

[ccexplore]

I see there's only one level for each of my two favourite tribes, and each even by me...

Funny you mention this.  When I did "Towards a Common Goal", because of the simple design of the level and no particular solution in mind on the outset, I actually tried out just about every style to see how they'd look, including Medieval and Outdoor.  Ultimately I felt the Space version looks the best so that's the version I ended up using.  I've attached here screenshots of all 7 styles I had considered.

[geoo]

Here's not one, but two new levels, one Medieval, one Outdoor style.
The Medieval one is one anyone can have a try at, intended to be a fun level. I attached two versions, one with trampolines and one without. The trampolines make the level overall more flingy, however also a bit more uncontrolled, so I don't know which one is better.
EDIT: Also noticed a funny glitch in the process: The skiers don't check for the exit's trigger area, but for the whole exit's area.
The Outdoor level however is trickier (also a bit difficult to execute), and I fear very prone to backroutes.

I've had some progress on Mission Impossible, but no results yet. The beginning is clear, and I think I found one key trick to it (well, at least I hope I'm on the right track with it), but it's not yet sufficient to solve the level:

Have the top lemming pour over the gap, and divide the stream into two using a spear from below. This will disable the rightmost trap and pave the way along the top at the same time.

And...

And good job to geoo ; Nessie's very happy to finally be visited by all 60 lemmings from across the pond.

So that's what's for dinner! (Why did I even save them... )

[ccexplore]

The skiers don't check for the exit's trigger area, but for the whole exit's area.

Nice, another underused skills featured.  Though to be fair, I can easily understand why the skier's not so featured:

1) it feels a little weird to feature it on a non-Polar level
2) it's hard to make use of it and the effect is quite underwhelming.  You seem to need a large downhill slope followed by a properly curved valley at the bottom to launch the skier into flying.  Even then, the amount of height/distance you get relative to the amount of terrain required for the setup is not all that impressive.

Will be interesting to see how you use that skill in your level.

And good job to geoo ; Nessie's very happy to finally be visited by all 60 lemmings from across the pond.

So that's what's for dinner! (Why did I even save them... )

LOL!

Actually I have a far more gentle image of Nessie in mind.  Who's to say Nessie's not more like a humpback whale than a shark?  And besides, think about it: what would you rather eat:  tasty fish, or something in the same family as mice and rats?

[ccexplore]

The Outdoor level however is trickier (also a bit difficult to execute), and I fear very prone to backroutes.

Indeed.  Like the one attached for example? But hey, at least it's not blatantly obvious, and far less embarassing than the first backroute I found in Sands of Time.

[edit: another likely backroute attached.  A little less obvious to find, but not too different from the first one.  (Attached screenshots only show how to start, the rest is basically the same as the first backroute.)

The good news though is, once we get rid of all these backroutes, it looks like the solution that remain will indeed be tricky to find, since I've given some effort too in trying to find solutions that would use some of the unused skills and would fit with the title, but no dice so far.]

[ccexplore]

Forgot to comment on the fun Medieval level.  That was indeed quite fun.   And more interesting than at first glance, as the level naturally becomes harder the less lemmings remaining in the level.  Making for a nice build-in difficulty curve, as well as providing numerous opportunities for challenges (eg. get gold, fewest skills used, etc.)  Definitely a well designed fun level.

I have to say though, whether the trampolines are there or not doesn't really make too big of a difference to me.

[weirdybeardy]

Hi guys. I'm having a busy week but I'm hoping to build an easy level once I can decide which tribe to use!  I've already got the puzzle and the name planned out. Like I said, it'll be an easy one. I'll leave the super-conundrums to you geniuses. 

[geoo]

Looking forward to your new level.
As for the choice of the style, the styles looking nicest tend to be the most difficult to work with.

Mission accomplished!
I knew I had to push that idea a little further! Amazing solution, with your trademark multiple use of skills.
Reminds me a bit of Sands of Time for obvious reasons.
But holy hell to execute, once I got the idea, it took me about 50 tries to finally get it straight. One point that gave me a lot of trouble was that the lemmings from the lower lane at the top came too fast, this could likely be remedied (at the cost of aesthetics...) by making a sawtooth-like path, i.e. repeatedly walking up, falling down, to add a bit of delay.
I'm not quite sure how the chain works internally, but I was surprised that it actually kept almost the same phase in all of my later attempts (that phase wasn't optimal, but ok).

I actually did check 'Compression Convergence' for backroutes, I wonder how I managed to overlook that first one... Initially it had a slightly different name, but I feared it might be giving away too much, so I changed it. Attached is the new version.

Considering you expected some interesting use of the skier, I guess you were a bit let down in that regard by 'Friendly Fire'. I just added it for making the timing easier, especially in the end stage, when you need some synchronisation.

Actually I have a far more gentle image of Nessie in mind.  Who's to say Nessie's not more like a humpback whale than a shark?  And besides, think about it: what would you rather eat:  tasty fish, or something in the same family as mice and rats?

Fair point. Admittedly, Nessie doesn't look too intimidating in the Highlands...

[ccexplore]

Mission accomplished!

Cool! Actually, wow!   I think you might've solved this one even faster than I solved your Sands of Time, though I suppose the similarity helps.  Yeah, I don't remember exactly how I built up to this level idea, but undoubtedly your level did influence my thinking at the time.

But holy hell to execute, once I got the idea, it took me about 50 tries to finally get it straight. One point that gave me a lot of trouble was that the lemmings from the lower lane at the top came too fast, this could likely be remedied (at the cost of aesthetics...) by making a sawtooth-like path, i.e. repeatedly walking up, falling down, to add a bit of delay.

Actually, the way you did it isn't quite exactly the way I intended, though I accept your solution nonetheless since it contains the main key idea (and how can I say "no" after you spent 50 tries making your way work? ).

It does worry me though that a solution exists which is even worse to execute than my intended solution (which with a little practice, I think I can make it work about 1 out of 3-4 tries).  I think it's enough for me to think about whether I can enforce my solution over yours......  I'll post an update when I'm ready.

Considering you expected some interesting use of the skier, I guess you were a bit let down in that regard by 'Friendly Fire'.

Well, I was hoping there may be some interesting use of the skier but honestly I wasn't expecting much, as you can tell from the shortcomings of the skill I already noted in my earlier post.

[ccexplore]

Actually, the way you did it isn't quite exactly the way I intended, though I accept your solution nonetheless since it contains the main key idea (and how can I say "no" after you spent 50 tries making your way work? ).

It does worry me though that a solution exists which is even worse to execute than my intended solution (which with a little practice, I think I can make it work about 1 out of 3-4 tries).  I think it's enough for me to think about whether I can enforce my solution over yours......  I'll post an update when I'm ready.

Well, that turned out to be a mini-impossible mission of sorts.   I've finally attached version 2 which is a surprisingly small change.  [editX:  after spending almost half a day, I've settled on version 2c which fixes some issues I have with version 2 and 2b, which are now removed from this post since there were 0 downloads.]

That said, now I'm not really sure if my way is much better than yours; in fact, while I think once you get the timing in my method it's not too difficult to reproduce, I think I probably did spent just as many tries as you, in finding the correct timing for my solution in the first place.  That much seems apparent when I needed to adjust the timing of my original solution in order to fit with this version of my level.  So in terms of execution difficulty, maybe mine isn't any better than your way (still haven't tried your way myself yet).

But there are some aspects of my solution that I liked a little better, it'll be interesting to see if you agree.

You are also absolutely welcome to backroute this version of the level too if you like, clearly the change opens up some possibilities not previously possible, although I still think the level design and the limited skills should continue to prevent all the other possibilities from succeeding, but we'll see.  I'm most blind to my own levels as before, especially when doing quick-fixes.

You've of course also earned the right to just ignore this version, given the immense effort you spend on executing my first version.  (Good job once again. )  But I do hope you'll at least try to work out the general way the solution goes (and let me know), even if you don't bother to actually execute it.

And just to be clear:

Splitting the one stream of filler into 3 exactly like in your solution, together with having the spear catch the bomber before he falls back down, those are indeed the key solution ideas and remain unchanged in the new version.  Many other miscellaneous parts of your solution also carry over in this version.

[editX2:  just in case there are issues with version 2c, I now also present version 3.  Haven't made up my mind which one is better.  You can pick either version to play.]

[editX3: I went back to version 2 instead of 2c, because it turns out I overreacted and one of the problems I worried about version 2 isn't in fact a problem.  Still keeping version 3 though since I'm now getting worried about the obvious potential for problem in version 2.]

[editX4: after playing it tons of times, I'm now convinced that version 2 gives you more flexibility to adjust for timing, and thus will likely be easier to execute than version 3.  Hence I now recommend version 2 over version 3, at least until someone manages a new backroute using version 2.  God I can't believe I'm saying this, but I'm so sick of this level! ]

[ccexplore]

I was still able to adapt my second backroute into your new version of "Compression Convergence", though it now needs one more skill and a glitch.  See attached.  Spoiler below in case the screenshots aren't clear:

After the hero's done paving the way, instead of bombing on the right to release the crowd, have someone dive into the vine on the left.  As you know, that will trigger the lemming to crawl up the vine, where you can bomb to release lemmings on the left.

[geoo]

Cool! Actually, wow!   I think you might've solved this one even faster than I solved your Sands of Time, though I suppose the similarity helps. [...]

Hmm? It took you not even 2 days to solve SOT, while I only managed it 2 weeks after the release, and at least 3 of these days I actually had attempts at solving it.

You are also absolutely welcome to backroute this version of the level too if you like, clearly the change opens up some possibilities not previously possible, although I still think the level design and the limited skills should continue to prevent all the other possibilities from succeeding, but we'll see.  I'm most blind to my own levels as before, especially when doing quick-fixes.

Well, considering this you come up with backroute-free levels pretty frequently.
Anyway, I didn't get around to have a proper look at the new version of the level yet, but I still intend to, especially considering how much effort you apparently put into trying to come up with a better version.
And be sure I know, I increasingly got sick of 'De-Tailed design' with every single backroute...

Also attached a quick-fix for 'Compression Convergence', didn't see any better way than the ugly steel block.

[ccexplore]

Hmm? It took you not even 2 days to solve SOT, while I only managed it 2 weeks after the release, and at least 3 of these days I actually had attempts at solving it.

Haha, I could've swore I took at least 2 days with SOT if not more, but anyway, I counted starting from the past Wednesday since that's when you said you'll have a proper look at it, and if I recall, on that day you already hit on part of the solution idea.  I'm guessing now you probably had been thinking about the level before the mythical Wednesday.

But who's counting? Still a good job.

Well, considering this you come up with backroute-free levels pretty frequently.

I dunno, I remembered that Clam backrouted your "Breeze into the Light" level long after we both moved on from that level.  A surprise like that could well popped up any time with my levels as well.

Anyway, I didn't get around to have a proper look at the new version of the level yet, but I still intend to, especially considering how much effort you apparently put into trying to come up with a better version.

I don't know if I'd call it a "better" version yet; you be the judge (though I do think at least version 2 has the dual advantage of improving both execution tolerance and solution concept slightly, assuming that change doesn't open up some new backroute).  The effort is mostly spent in executing my solution in each version as a courtesy to verify that it's doable.  I learned the very hard way that maybe my solution is really a pain to work out the timing after all, and I either got lucky with my original version or forgot about the pain.  I dunno, I'm starting to think that depending on the details of the terrain setup, maybe the chain is actually hurting things more than helping, in terms of timing. Bah.

[ccexplore]

Also attached a quick-fix for 'Compression Convergence', didn't see any better way than the ugly steel block.

Unfortunately, that ugly steel block also provides a relatively easy, and even glitch-free, way to make my backroute work:

Now we simply have the climber climb up the steel block and then bomb to get past the left vine, instead of mortaring as before.  The mortar can then be used to free the crowd through the right vine without leading them to the frog trap (ie. mortar a little away from the vine, so the explosion happens high enough not to break through the ground).

And if you think it may be hard to select the right lemming in the correct position from the crowd for the mortaring, think again:  I wait until every lemming is out before assigning the climber.  By luck (or I can just try to track the position of the first lemming out), the lemming will climb out on the left.  When he bombs, the fling-back will naturally slightly compress the crowd into 2 groups (those that felt the fling-back and those that don't), and there's enough separation between the two groups (due to the former group going in opposite direction than latter group) that you can easily assign the mortar to the front lemming of one group at the desired position).

[geoo]

Ah yeah, didn't think of that. This should (hopefully) prevent that?

[ccexplore]

Ah yeah, didn't think of that. This should (hopefully) prevent that?

Sorry.  [edit: added more in spoilers]

Now I climb all the way up the left vine to where it curves before the flower, and bomb there to get through the vine.  Your new additions in v4 then enable me to climb out into the area I want to go.

It may be very difficult to ensure the mortar fires to the right by luck, so instead I use the diver glitch as follows:  make a lemming dive into the right vine, and then immediately when he gets up, and before he turns around and crawls, assign him the mortar.  This will shift the mortar explosion enough to the right to prevent floor breakage.

[ccexplore]

Now some good news, I've attached your intended solution here.

What clever and elegant idea! I think "elegance" is definitely becoming the trademark for your best levels.   (And also "good titles" I think. )

[edit: actually, I do have one minor gripe about the level:

You know that leaf that's almost but not quite touching the vine (instead leaving a one-pixel-tall "tunnel"), on the left side of the level?  (The one that would sort of block the hero's path after his 1st platformer, if the leaf were actually touching the vine?)  I'm assuming it's there to prevent some sort of backroute?  Otherwise, it looks ambiguous enough whether the leaf is blocking or not blocking the path, which seems kinda unfair to the player--isn't the level about elegance and not pixel-level observations?
 

]

[weirdybeardy]

Bleh, I forgot how difficult it is to play-test with the L2 editing software. Plus everything's in a grid, so pixel-perfect puzzles are a no-no...

*grumble* 

Building levels is easy, getting them to work properly is a pain in the arse.

[ccexplore]

Plus everything's in a grid, so pixel-perfect puzzles are a no-no...

Hmm, pixel-perfect......I thought you said you were going to create easy-peachy levels?

But yeah, I know exactly what you mean.   I'm not a fan of the grid-based system either.

[geoo]

You can use L2Suite: http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=295.0
For me it makes playtesting a bit more convenient (even though you still have to wait past the L2 title and level preview screen).

Now some good news, I've attached your intended solution here.

What clever and elegant idea! I think "elegance" is definitely becoming the trademark for your best levels.   (And also "good titles" I think. )

edit: actually, I do have one minor gripe about the level: [...]

Thanks.

The initial title was 'Iterative Compression', but I the new title is not as blatant, and I also like it better overall.
As you might have guessed, I got the general idea for this when making 'Friendly Fire', observing the behaviour there. Though I got the final detail with the lemmings lying on their back only when trying to execute my idea.

Good work solving it that quickly!
The only difference about my way of execution is that I use the mortar at the other end of the bridge.

I didn't realize one could overlook the gap the leaf leaves; that curvy tile doesn't exist without the leaf, but I just put a blue flower there now, so that the stem can be straight.
Attached the new version, which should also fix the backroute (by finally abandoning that dumb red herring...).

[weirdybeardy]

Thanks for the L2Suite link! I actually remember the thread from the first time around. I downloaded then but forgot to download the dll files too. This time I've downloaded the dlls and unzipped into the same directory as the suite... and it still doesn't work! I says it can't find another dll file... one that isn't included in the zip. I'm stumped.

[ccexplore]

Attached the new version, which should also fix the backroute (by finally abandoning that dumb red herring...).

Wrong again:

After climbing up the steel block, I use the diver glitch twice to get through the vine, and then bomb to get down.  The bombing of course also helps compress the crowd to make the mortaring manageable, especially if you wait until everyone's out.

But good news on that front too:  I think I have a surefire way to kill the backroute once and for all.  It's so simple a change, yet it's sufficient to prevent the backroute even all the way back to your original version!

Just change the 3 divers to 3 runners

[geoo]

I knew the diver would one day come back to haunt me for calling it useless...

The change you proposed is really elegant and simple, thanks!
So below is the final(?) version then.

Thanks for the L2Suite link! I actually remember the thread from the first time around. I downloaded then but forgot to download the dll files too. This time I've downloaded the dlls and unzipped into the same directory as the suite... and it still doesn't work! I says it can't find another dll file... one that isn't included in the zip. I'm stumped.

What's the exact name of the file that's missing? Perhaps a search in the internet can turn it up, or if you can't find it there, I guess I must have it somewhere for me to work so I can likely send it to you.

[weirdybeardy]

It says it can't find "mingwm10.dll"... 

[Simon]

http://www.dll-files.com/pop.php?dll=mingwm10

Download and put into the directory where the exe sits. In general, missing DLLs are turned up nicely by a web search for the exact file name.

-- Simon

[weirdybeardy]

Thanks very much!    I've now got the suite working perfectly. I should have a new level submitted soon. I had one ready to go already, but I accidentally overwrote it!  But that's my fault and not the software's fault. 

Watch this space.


Okay, here it is: my easy-peasy Polar level!  Hopefully you'll find it worth your time, even if it isn't particularly challenging. Feedback appreciated. 

[Simon]

I like the level! It is of the short-and-sweet nature, and it took me quite a few tries to find the working approach. The steel is placement is a bit hairy, but still fair. From the different approaches I tried, I believe that the steel can't be moved that much anyway without opening other solutions

I remember that I made a Space level with the L2 suite sometime ago. It doesn't show up in your list, probably no one besides geoo has played it yet. I've attached it to this post.

-- Simon

[geoo]

Okay, here it is: my easy-peasy Polar level!  Hopefully you'll find it worth your time, even if it isn't particularly challenging. Feedback appreciated. 

Easy-peasy is quite an understatement, it took me quite a few tries to see a viable solution, and then I'm not even sure whether it's the intended one, as it requires some pixel precision. I'll send it to you via PM.
Nifty level, I like how despite the terrain's simplicity there's many possibilities to consider, yet none trivially works.

On a different note, I'll be away till the end of the week, so don't expect any updates or levels from me until then. Though in the meantime, Simon will entertain you with exclusive L2 late-night levels.

[weirdybeardy]

Thanks for the feedback, guys! I agree with Simon about the steel placement looking a bit ugly, but you understand the position I was in: any less steel and the level would become too easy; any more steel and it would look silly and pointless (for a good example of silly and pointless, look at my other Polar level). 

@geoo: Your solution is an interesting variation on my intended, but it's close enough for me to say that it isn't a backroute.  I tried for the simple approach this time, and I'm glad it seems to work! I feel like I've built a level that feels more-or-less at home among the standard of the official L2 game. 

[Simon]

Alright, geoo has forewarnend you all... true L2 late-night stuff ahead, built like 2 hours after I usually go to bed.

The first level is 16:9 is a Dumb Ratio, and it can be treated and solved like a regular level.

The second level is Immediately Give Up. Do not attempt to solve this. Neither geoo nor me has successfully managed to do it yet. I wouldn't have released this level at all if geoo hadn't told me he would do so otherwise... The most interesting thing would be ccexplore having a go at this level, and judging with all his wisdom whether it can be solved at all. Feel free to lower the release rate and add any necessary skills.

-- Simon

[ccexplore]

  

Ha, and here I was thinking, I'm already days behind with my work (you might've noticed my absence the past 2 or 3 days despite the new L2 levels), and was even considering going into work over the weekend.  So much for that plan.   (Actually, we'll see.)

I'll take a brief look at I.G.U., but I might have to put off any serious effort into it until middle of next week.

In the meanwhile, I did solve both weirdy's and Simon's levels, or at least find a solution (in one case solutions) to them, intended or not who knows.  Both levels are excellent and appropriately stimulating (I'd daresay actually a bit challenging). I'll post or PM more on those levels later.

[edit: yikes!  So it's all about the nasty execution. Um, yeah, I might have to pass on that for now.  Maybe just one or two tries and see just how bad it is]

[ccexplore]

The second level is Immediately Give Up. Do not attempt to solve this. Neither geoo nor me has successfully managed to do it yet. I wouldn't have released this level at all if geoo hadn't told me he would do so otherwise... The most interesting thing would be ccexplore having a go at this level, and judging with all his wisdom whether it can be solved at all.

Ok, that was much easier than it looks.  Not only did I solve it, but I solved it on my first try without any restarts.  I might even consider re-attempting it with the climbers replaced with rock climbers and see what happens (though that might perhaps be a bit of a stretch).

(Now of course, if one is not allowed to pause, then that's a whole different ballgame altogether.)

[ccexplore]

Here's also a DOSBox video (35.6 MB) for "Immediately Give Up".

I probably got a little lucky to have gotten it on the very first try, that said, it's really not that bad at all (after all, I'm willing to do it a second time just to make the video, and would've done it sooner if I didn't need to sleep).  There are really only about 3-4 places that are a little hairy.

[Simon]

Yes, IGU is intended to be played with lots of pausing.

The video is absolutely amazing. I believe I have learned some more on ballooner navigation from it, what happens exactly at what fan distance, how long it will take etc. The duration of certain maneuvers is important here; you always assign climbers while the ballooner has enough space above itself, and do difficult maneuvers while not having to assign.

When I played the level, each time I hit a wall with the balloon, I was shouting like a farmer who's dropped an anvil on his foot. I was on voice chat with geoo at that time, so he was cracking up all the time. The circus music was icing on that scene.

The level was even harder in the beginning, and it had several vertical passages that had a width of 16 pixels, like the steel passage in the beginning. I edited those out, I thought that the user had put his navigational skills to enough use by entering that very first passage. I still wouldn't have thought that the current version wasn't that hard for you. Great job!

-- Simon

[geoo]

That's indeed pretty amazing. I wanted to commend you once more on your patience, but that's pretty inappropriate considering you got it right at the first time!
From the video it seems that keeping a certain distance between the fan and the balloon is one ingredient to having good control over the ballooner.
One peculiarity I noticed is that you kept clicking the climber icon each time before assigning a batch of climbers, while the fan doesn't actually reset the skill.

Anyway, that night I actually made a level as well, which I just gave the finishing touches to now.
It's a rather easy one again; when executing you got to take care about the L2 limitations when assigning a skill in the vicinity of another worker lemming.
Cavelem is really unfit if you want a solid chunk of terrain, but alas, the dino is only present in Cavelem...

[ccexplore]

From the video it seems that keeping a certain distance between the fan and the balloon is one ingredient to having good control over the ballooner.

Definitely.  It's really just a lot of careful and reactive adjustments, moving the fan to various distances and angles between very frequent pauses, to keep the ballooner on the desired path and away from impending ceilings and walls.  Unless you need the speed, or are doing an "emergency maneuver", keeping the fan too close to the balloon for too long just makes it harder to control.

One peculiarity I noticed is that you kept clicking the climber icon each time before assigning a batch of climbers, while the fan doesn't actually reset the skill.

Heh, yeah, force of habit I guess.  In other levels/challenges with crazy ballooning, you don't typically have the luxury of assigning just the one same skill between fanning.

[weirdybeardy]

I just had a thought... Are the people who constitute this thread the only people making custom levels for Lemmings 2: The Tribes... in the WORLD??

[ccexplore]

Quite likely.  Of course, just as other people not on this forum would be unlikely to know of the existence of working L2 editors such as GP's editor and PCL2ED, we too would probably not be aware of any other separate efforts at L2 editors out in the world that may be happening.

[weirdybeardy]

Just to let you know that I'll be taking a break from building Lemmings levels for the time being, until I can find more free time than I currently have... And spend less of my free time playing the dangerously-addictive LittleBigPlanet!

I will continue to lurk, just like I always have done. Respect and best wishes to all.

[ccexplore]

Hey, best of wishes to you too!

Actually, I think a good number of the major players on this forum have all gotten distracted lately with Clones, myself included.
So you're not the only one taking a break and turning into a lurker.

[kieranmillar]

I decided to play through the levels in this thread, and record my blind playthorughs and upload to Youtube.

Here is the playlist the videos will be added to:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLjmQA_pi2AYRAKorO_FMlzkuHJIMzMRSY

I started off by playing all 3 of Simon's levels.
16:9 is a Dumb Ratio - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGHMbhQvX9U
Immediately Give Up - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOH8y8xTxcw
Not so Glued to the Goal - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3E2VVZeaGRs

Here are my comments:

16:9 is a Dumb Ratio (click to show/hide)

The trampolines are hilarious but the level itself is very straightforward, except the tunnel to rop up is really thin so it requires a bunch of precision. Level takes longer to execute than it needs to. A fun idea.

Immediately Give Up (click to show/hide)

Code: [Select]

....................../´¯/)
....................,/¯../
.................../..../
............./´¯/'...'/´¯¯`·¸
........../'/.../..../......./¨¯\
........('(...´...´.... ¯~/'...')
.........\.................'...../
..........''...\.......... _.·´
............\..............(
..............\.............\...

Not so Glued to the Goal (click to show/hide)

This level was awesome. I'm aware that final glue is a minor backroute but the level itself was good fun and fun to solve.

[kieranmillar]

And now some comments on the next batch I played.

Cascade II by Dullstar - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtnkEIn2mAM
Always The Long Route by GuyPerfect - https://youtu.be/L45Qp4Ye568
The Clam Spammer by GuyPerfect - https://youtu.be/QGEC_oWwuEg
Spelunk 'n' Dunk by GuyPerfect - https://youtu.be/9Sl9A5NxJow

Cascade II (click to show/hide)

Short and simple but slightly disappointed that it doesn't try to look more like the original level, but the big empty space at least means the most direct route of roping straight from the top of the steps does not work as nothing to attach to when you turn around.

Always The Long Route (click to show/hide)

A great level, a lot going on for a one-screener! Not sure what the Basher was for. A backroute? If I hadn't been spending the best part of this year on my own set I think I'd have found this a lot harder and not picked up on some key things as quickly, but it's always good to see the rock climber, shimmier and slider triple-whammy.

The Clam Spammer (click to show/hide)

I think I must have backrouted this because I have an enormous number of skills left over. Huge chunks of the level and my skills went unused. I just the most direct route, which is pretty easy if you give this many builders and ropers. The crowd control at the start forced my hand to let off an early ballooner and when wondering what I could use him for it all just went on from there. The decoration is good here, I love the clam on the cloud near the exit

Spelunk 'n' Dunk (click to show/hide)

A really cool opening. This was a good level but again a huge number of builders, there doesn't even seem to be enough time on the clock to use them all in practice, but I can't complain as it was useful for crowd control. Perhaps the release rate could have been tweaked to not make the final crowd-freeing flame thrower be such a lucky shot. This level proves that builder+glue is a powerful combo, building a huge bridge very quickly. The video is a bit embarrassing as the sun was shining through the window so I did not see the trap or the fact that there was no plant stalk on the edge of the screen and so walked off the screen multiple times like a huge idiot.

[kieranmillar]

I started playing geoo's levels.

De-Tailed Design - There are two videos, a 45 minute epic that results in a backroute around 43:30 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVBDLTKvTAE and a second, short much more simplified backroute https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCOoVrj1vEA
Friendly Fire - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1d2NIYACxCQ
Breeze into the Light - Ended up unsolved but I think I had the correct idea, just couldn't execute it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvCDIx8mE1w

De-Tailed Design (click to show/hide)

This level is very hard, but I think I got very close to a legitimate solution. It seems clear to me that sending two lemmings over to the trampoline to place a spear, and then gluing on or around the spear is the correct idea, but I could not get it to work. At one point it seemed right but the glue was too long and everyone walked off the screen, which was a huge shame. If this is the right sort of idea then the level is great, I just need to figure out the wrinkle in my plans at some point. The backroutes I found will need some serious reworking to fix. Given it is version 8 perhaps the level has simply grown too complex and some sort of simplification of the core idea might be in order, I had to do that a few times when working on QFK2.

Friendly Fire (click to show/hide)

I love the idea, partially because as you know I came up with a similar one independently, and with the same name too! The level is a fun blast with a bit of a fun twist at the end where you have to simultaneously blast two lemmings, I just wish the final execution could be slightly easier, like putting the central exit in a bit of a pit so slight inaccuracies don't cause problems like what happened in my playthrough.

Breeze into the Light (click to show/hide)

Either I am missing something fundamental or I have the right idea but the specific execution is nasty. I really really love the way you managed to set up the terrain to have the throwers work in the way they do, that's incredible. But there has to be a better way to execute what you have to do here instead of a multi-lemming bomb fling, assuming that is right. And I feel it must be given all of the other skills were accounted for. I like that one makes a cool use of the diver, while the platformer + gluer is neat. Flinging one lemming to the right place and turning the last lemming seems cool too, but it would be nice if there were one more skill like a balloon, or a skier to speed up one lemming to just get that last guy to the right place and not have to worry about what appears to be some extreme execution. I absolutely love the level concept.

[geoo]

Thanks for playing and commenting on the levels.

De-Tailed Design (click to show/hide)

I remember the key idea to this level, but not all the details. But I think the main idea was somehow hard to enforce, or maybe it was just the specific setup that was too complicated. I'll have to look at it again, but you're probably right in that it needs a major redesign in order to work. Not going to happen too soon unfortunately.

Friendly Fire (click to show/hide)

My memory is a bit fuzzy, but iirc I got this working very consistently by firing from a bit further back, and flinging them towards the outer exits? But lowering the middle exit sounds like a good idea.

Breeze into the Light (click to show/hide)

I didn't remember the solution offhand, but I looked it up and it turns out you're actually missing a crucial trick here. I just tried and the execution is pretty reliable and simple. I think you'll like it if you find it, too bad you got trapped in a somewhat promising looking (probable) dead-end.

[Dullstar]

Cascade II by Dullstar - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtnkEIn2mAM

Cascade II (click to show/hide)

Short and simple but slightly disappointed that it doesn't try to look more like the original level, but the big empty space at least means the most direct route of roping straight from the top of the steps does not work as nothing to attach to when you turn around.

I believe I made that level playing with the editor to see what it could do, which would explain some things...
...although I must say, I made that so long ago that I had legitimately forgotten it existed.

Now I'm going to have to go through some old posts and files to see what all I made messing around with that editor.

[kieranmillar]

More geoo levels!

Untitled (cave.dat) - https://youtu.be/pJ4z33PO76g
Compression Convergence - Another 2 video-er, initial solving attempts: https://youtu.be/pDoiNf-5naQ and after working out a solution off-screen, 10 minutes of trying and failing to get that solution to work again: https://youtu.be/3WNoESiVFAU
Decomposition - https://youtu.be/x-0bKfxe8RI

cave.dat (click to show/hide)

It looks like you're supposed to break the fall of the bottom crowd but this simple solution that is probably a backroute is much easier. This is what happens when you give stackers and all the ground isn't perfectly flat. For all I know this solution could actually be right.

Compression Convergence (click to show/hide)

This was a great level, hard but fun to work out and a really cool idea, but the solution is extremely finicky to pull off to get everyone compressed enough. A second kayak would really help here, I don't see it adding a backroute and it would be super useful to reduce the level of precision and timing needed. The first time I experienced the flinging plant was quite the hilarious shock, so much for thinking things were going to be easy! :p

Decomposition (click to show/hide)

Oh good grief the L2 assignment rage here is atrocious. The solution seems straight-forward but I'm not going to spend any more time trying to pull this nonsense off. Yuck!

[geoo]

Thanks for the videos and comments.

cave.dat (click to show/hide)

I think when I uploaded the folder back then I just scraped together everything I had. Turns out, this level actually has a couple of versions and even a proper name! You'll find it as Give and Take in the archive, hopefully with less backroutes?

Compression Convergence (click to show/hide)

I'm glad you enjoyed at least figuring the solution. I don't remember if I had a reliable setup for it, but I agree that it'd probably be better with two kayakers, as then there's a nice and reliable setup that's easy to spot once you've worked out the solution. (And regarding backroutes, the two groups initially coming down are too spread out to go through the plant with only one lemming being flung I hope?) I think you can consider this one solved.
 

Decomposition (click to show/hide)

Seems like this was the last level I released, and it didn't get any playtesting. I don't remember it too well,
 but what you're doing looks very sensible. Somehow I thought there was some other twist to it though? Either way, I do remember it being execution heavy, and it doesn't seem to exciting in hindsight. Should be possible to design something much easier to pull of featuring the main idea.

I think overall my best levels are probably Recycling Plant (make sure both fling plants work; I think outdoorlev.dat is
a prototype of it you can skip), Breeze into the Light and (with somewhat trickier execution) Sands of Time.

[ccexplore]

Seeing the youtube video for "Compression" was a little surprising, since it's not geoo's usual style to require that kind of fiddly precision-y trial and error.  Then again, in his initial posting of the level, he did warn about execution difficulty (see sentence on "Outdoor level").  He also was worried about backroute-proneness, which might explain why he didn't set up the level more like your suggestion.

Looking at the solution I posted, it was apparently for an intermediate version that has extra terrain, which enabled a variant solution with same concept but naturally led to more optimal (though still by no means perfect) results.  The extra terrain was removed in the final version since it was originally for backroute prevention, and we ended up dealing with that differently.  geoo's follow-up comment to my solution post also made it clear though that he did solve it more like what you tried in your youtube video, which does look rather frustrating.  (I never bothered trying to re-solve the final version of the level, since I didn't know at the time doing it geoo's way would be so much more tedious than my way.)  Your suggested change would seem like a good thing to consider.

[ccexplore]

De-Tailed Design (click to show/hide)

I remember the key idea to this level, but not all the details. But I think the main idea was somehow hard to enforce, or maybe it was just the specific setup that was too complicated. I'll have to look at it again, but you're probably right in that it needs a major redesign in order to work. Not going to happen too soon unfortunately.

Based on the solution I posted which you accepted, it seems like maybe just tweaking the terrain to make it impossible to glue thinly where kieranmillar had poured so far in his backroutes, would be a good (enough) idea?  Maybe you kept that there as a red herring originally, but if that's the case, it seems like a pretty tricky red herring to prevent from becoming a backroute, as his backroutes have proven.  That feature was clearly not needed in my solution.

That said, kieranmillar's intuition is probably correct in that the level may just need some overall simplifications to be less backroute-prone.  But with no time for that, maybe start with what I suggested above and see how it goes.

[kieranmillar]

So I've decided that commentary-less videos of my first attempts are not all that interesting, however I've committed myself to at least recording the remainder of geoo's levels. There aren't that many left. After that I will only record one if someone explicitly wants me to. I figure nobody really wants to watch 25 minutes of useless floundering in silence. I'd do commentary but currently have no way of doing so.

Here's the next batch of levels:
The Diver Level - https://youtu.be/oz-sPwL72yo then eventually I looked up the intended solution to see if I was right, turns out I wasn't, anyway here's the intended solution: https://youtu.be/sqTN-j4HVew
Fierljeppen! - A nice straightforward one-screener, but I couldn't quite figure it out: https://youtu.be/AgpJt4ugyg0 In the end I looked up the solution, and wish I hadn't because it's cool and smart and I think eventually I'd have worked it out myself. https://youtu.be/Ortm9skh9Pg
Give-And-Take - Could not solve: https://youtu.be/7MLp2qfYoPI Eventually I looked up the solution but then couldn't actually pull it off, so no video for you.

The Diver Level (click to show/hide)

For a test level, I actually really like this one. At first I was going to suggest you should move the sphinx a bit closer so it's easier to attach to it if you blast a lemming into the middle area, but after seeing the intended solution, it would be better if you moved it further away so you can't, that might make it easier to work out. Or maybe, because it's just a glitch demonstration level, none of this matters really. Anyway cool glitches.

Fierljeppen! (click to show/hide)

Oh man, a great one-screener! Wish I hadn't peeked at the solution now, not too hard to figure out, I was just dumb. It's cool how every skill feels like it's obvious where everything has to go but the most obvious just isn't quite right.

Give-And-Take (click to show/hide)

Interesting that it uses so few skills, and after peeking at the solution that's pretty interesting and smart, but I feel like this level really needs some easier way to pull off the relevant parts, the level comes across as pretty finicky because everything you want to try feels like you're trying to find an exploit. I could not pull off the intended solution as one lemming always got ahead and splatted slightly too early, I just need time to place about 2 more bricks but I can't get there in time or stop the extra early lemming.

[ccexplore]

You're right that most people won't watch the entire video.  However, I think it'd be good to still see the video but trimmed down to just the final attempt, so that it's easier for someone to tell if you hit a backroute or not.  I think it'll usually be more informative for both you as well as for the level designer than trying to explain your solution/attempt solely in words or with pictures.  Hopefully the pain points about tedious or fiddly parts can usually be adequately described by words alone in your comments, rather than staring at or scrubbing through minutes of silent floundering.

For my levels I'd like to see a video of at least your final attempt (successful or otherwise, but especially if successful).

[ccexplore]

Give-and-Take (click to show/hide)

Apparently I only included a single screenshot in my posted solution, and it's been ages so I can only reconstruct the solution based on that (and certainly don't remember how easy or hard it is to execute).  Based on the screenshot, it looks like I probably have the first lemming from right entrance start stacking, and let only the second lemming from right entrance get past that stacker to go build.  (It's also possible maybe the first one builds and the second one stacks, which may require picking the precise right spot to start stacking so no one overtakes that stacker.)  Once the right-entrance crowd starts getting flinged to the exit platform, looks like I have one lemming start stacking to make the fall off the builder bridge non-fatal, and also quickly have another lemming club-bash to both get through the mushroom as well as make a gap at the bottom with the second stack.

It seems clearly important to get the stacker at the top to start stacking as far right as possible, to produce the largest amount of walking (as delay) for the left-entrance crowd, as well as the smallest amount of walking for the right crowd (so they can reach and start the other stacking as soon as possible).  The timing and positioning of the builder and second stacker seems basically fixed.  So actually I kind of feel like there shouldn't be that many things to try and fail on once you have the solution idea.  Maybe the placements required for the skills are a little too pixel-precise?  I can see that maybe having to line up the builder with the second stacker by eye is not ideal.

[edit: thinking on it more, maybe the extra early lemming you're having problems with is actually the first stacker?  If a separate lemming builds, I wonder if the first stacker may be proned to overtaking the builder once he finishes stacking, given that I think stacker finishes faster than builder?

If that's the problem, I think you need to ensure the first lemming from right entrance does the building.  Or maybe even that he both stacks and then builds.  Either way would require the stacker to pick the right starting location (assume there's one) so no one will overtake him.  I'll grant you that if this is necessary, it's a little inelegant.  Then again, given the minimum skillset, it should be a logical tweak to try for getting the solution to work.]

[kieranmillar]

It's time for the final set of geoo's levels! For future levels I may not record my early attempts, but I just noticed there are only 3 levels from Clam and I know people are interested in one of those so I may just record my first attempts at those too. Will see how it goes. If the videos are uninteresting I just won't upload them.

Recycling Plant - Unfortunately Youtube doesn't seem to want to process this video after multiple tries, so I'm afraid I have no video here, sorry! You didn't miss much.
Sands of Time - Unsolved: https://youtu.be/va9M-Rh3IpU
Ticking Bomb (part 1) - Hey look, I actually solved a geoo level in the first take! https://youtu.be/RpoWtjrNTIE
Ticking Bomb (part 2) - Initial attempts where I actually get quite close: https://youtu.be/SjeTHxTWC0w and about 10 minutes later, I finally figured it out: https://youtu.be/ULjgkltT-z4

Recycling Plant (click to show/hide)

Man there is so much for me to still try and unpack here. It seems I need to get the crowd onto the second plant to fling over to the exit, but before I can work out how that is supposed to work, I first need to get the two crowds to not overlap each other so that each lemming can fling on this plant. I have yet to figure out how to do that. I can easily use a spear to get the top crowd to walk along the top path, but the two crowds still merge. After that, I need to figure out how to stop the lemmings flinging into the water, trying to spear over it seems to do nothing and the lemmings land in the water anyway, and I also need to figure out if I want to throw rocks so they land on the plant facing the right way, or somehow get them over and drop onto it form the right-hand platform, but then they are facing away from the exit. So lots to figure out here and little progress was made in the first 20 minutes.

Sands of Time (click to show/hide)

Another small level with few skills where nothing works. The fact that a group of lemmings start at the top implies to me that I need to sand pour from the top and split the sand across more than one place. Most apparent solution feels like using a bit of sand at the top to raise the height for the platformer to get to the exit, then using a rope to run the sand down to the left to get people out at the bottom, using the flame thrower to join the crowds at the bottom. But this needs something to attach the rope too, which implies building the platform and somehow pouring the sand through it and the same time. I don't get it. Very tough level.

Ticking Bomb (part 1) (click to show/hide)

So I figured out the main idea straight away. A good use of crawling, well done I should have gotten the exact sequence of events right a lot sooner than I did. This is a pretty creative level, very unique, I like it! I can't help but feel there is something a bit off about the auto-filler and when it pours, I swear there's some inconsistency in when the crowd gets freed.

Ticking Bomb (part 2) (click to show/hide)

If I'd have kept recording a little bit longer this could have all been in one video, but oh well. Again, with having to get the crowd to go up and with the skills available I was immediately drawn to mining through the big block, just getting the specifics to pull it off ended up being the issue. But again it's something I really should have figured out a lot sooner, it was keeping the miner going and jumping to cancel after creating a wall that got me stumped for a while here. Another great level. I like that the tree just so happens to work out as a one-way obstacle for the rock climber, that's pretty cute. The auto-filler feels unnecessary here, but you get bonus points for having two levels with identical landscape so it doesn't matter.

[kieranmillar]

Zooming through Clam's 3 levels in a Flash, each solved on the initial video, although the execution-heavy "What a Twist!" lost one lemming right at the end and I wasn't going to spend more time trying to fix that.

Wall Crawler - https://youtu.be/mxWu5yeNg_E
Throw the Switch - https://youtu.be/HffeykQ1ATw
What a Twist! - https://youtu.be/VZltpaLENqY

Wall Crawler (click to show/hide)

It looks like crawling is not intended but forget it, I'm going to do it anyway. There's a much less roper-intensive route by climbing up one of the pillars at the start using a bunch of Bombers but so many ropers are given that it wasn't needed. Going through the ground using bombers near the exit seems like it is intended but it's so easy to trigger a crawl when you have so many ropers, and the name seems to imply using crawling tircks so I don't know if crawling is intended here or not. I think this is a bit tedious and would be better if it was a bit more refined and was roper-only, as making the complex web of ropes near the start like I did in my solution was pretty cool.

Throw the Switch (click to show/hide)

Seems large and imposing at first but in reality is pretty simple, and a lot of fun too! A great level! I noticed the blue hook decorations signified where the rock throwers needed to go, not necessary but a nice touch. I think this level is well designed.

What a Twist! (click to show/hide)

Wow, very creative level It's not every day you see something so complex arise from only having a single skill to use! The problem with the exit getting filled was a nice spanner in the works too. The execution is a bit of a pain but it's the Twister so of course it's a pain. There could be some tweaks to make the execution easier, mostly the steel under the trapdoor could be thinner to give more room for the twister as it has to cross that area multiple times. Very smart, and the only good use of the twister ever.

[geoo]

Thanks for playing more of my levels.

Comments in spoiler tags again.

btw, tell me if and to what extent you'd like to get hints when you're stuck. I'll try not to give anything away unless requested.

The Diver Level (click to show/hide)

Yeah, probably sensible to move the sphinx away a bit. Basically I wanted to show off the different kind of things you can do with the diver. It's a glitch level, but given that I guess it does what it was intended to do. Glad you kinda like it

Fierljeppen! (click to show/hide)

I think this was one of my first levels. It's really just one main idea, but I guess it's not obvious at first. Btw,
 you can make execution more reliable by bombing the last one walking into the cluster right before it ends up in the cluster. That way you're sure no-one else is in the same spot as the bomber.

Give-And-Take (click to show/hide)

I just tried it an execution seems needlessly tight. Basically, if the lemmings land on the second-highest brick of the stack that's already sufficient, and then with good placement of the first stacker things barely work out. Not sure if it's for backroute prevention, but I feel like it could easily be made a little easier to execute.

For Recycling Plant, as discussed in IRC, I suggest using V3. I can't guarantee that V3B and Vf work. Either way, the main idea you're in the process of working out applies to all versions.

Recycling Plant (click to show/hide)

There are no glitches or anything involved here. You sort of have the right idea what to do at the start, but not quite yet. I'm not quite sure what you're trying to do to activate the second plant, when I designed the level I thought it was obvious what's intended here, but apparently not quite. I hope you'll give it a few more tries working out the tricks. In the end there are quite a few assignments, but none of them are super precise, so once you got the placements down execution should be fine within a few tries.

Sands of Time (click to show/hide)

Again, you got some main ideas right here and some bits missing. I think the solution is very cool but at the same time a royal pain to execute. The level is small and everything happens fast, but there are still a lot of precise moves, unfortunately.

Ticking Bomb (part 1 & 2) (click to show/hide)

Actually, the design is a tiny bit different in the position of the auto-filler. True that for the second level idea it's not strictly needed, but that one spawned off the first one, and the auto-filler makes the premise of the ticking bomb by releasing the crowd. I also remember the autofiller being somewhat inconsistent, sometimes having short breaks, maybe somehow related to memory usage...
I didn't remember these two levels as particularly good, but looking at them again they are actually quite decent. I'm glad you liked them. And yes, it was a little painful seeing you struggle so long in part 2 not seeing how to prevent the crowd from going into the water.

Oh and I hope you're not going to skip over ccexplore's levels. Given, they are really hard for most part, but there are quite a few masterpieces among them. I just replayed Not A Lot to Go On (LEVEL110(2)) which iirc was one of the first levels, and the solution is as amazing as I remember it and execution is actually quite friendly.

[ccexplore]

Oh and I hope you're not going to skip over ccexplore's levels. Given, they are really hard for most part

Ha yeah, I think the poor guy could use a break after getting through all your levels one after another, before attempting mine.   Actually IIRC I think there's maybe just one or two more other level authors left anyway besides me.  Weirdybeardy is one and his levels are a lot more "accessible to the masses" (but still usually interesting and fun) and should be a great set to go through as a break from harder levels.

If I had to estimate a rough order of difficulty for my levels, I think it'd be something like below, feel free to use that as a guide on what order you might want to try them if you decide to try.

- Towards a Common Goal
- Can't Fit Thru!
- Pour Me Another (v4) [hard to judge difficulty as I'm not even sure I remember what I intended. I do remember it got to a point where I gave up on backroute fixing]
- Remote Control (Part 2) [Part 1 had some of geoo's other solutions kept in; you're welcome to try either or both versions as you see fit, but Part 2 is definitely closer to what I was going for]
- Not a Lot to Go on ("level110.dat" version with a backroute removed)  [This is the level geoo really likes.]
- Say Hi to Nessie
- Back Before Long (v4)
- Mission: Impossible (v2) [it was supposed to be slight more execution-friendlier than v1 and v3, but you're welcome to try the other versions as well; the solution geoo reported for v1 had like IIRC 95% of all the things I was going for and is accepted for all intents and purposes.]

Towards a Common Goal is the easy "take a break" level and obviously not particularly thoughtful, but hopefully the chosen skillset is still relatively constrained enough that the level is not completely trivial and still fun to solve.  I'd actually love to hear about any alternate skillsets that could be given to this level that may make things more interesting.

"Say Hi..." and "Back Before..."'s intended solutions may be a bit technical.  "Back..." also had some unfortunate aspects near the end that unavoidably forces a reliance on "luck" that even the frame-stepping technique can't help with.  "Mission..."'s complex solution concept sounds good on paper, but naturally introduces some execution difficulties that seem impossible to ease up on.

I think "Can't Fit...", "Remote Control..." and "Not a Lot..." may be my best 3 levels.  Actually "Mission..." would also be on my list but might just be too hard.

[mobius]

I've been watching some of kieran's videos and must say; some really cool and impressive designs here!   [Albeit with some precision heavy and tedious designs too ]

[kieranmillar]

Thnks for the info on your levels ccexplore. I might try wierdybeardy's first if they are easier. I did take a quick look at  Back Before Long as it was first in the zip file but I don't know if it's worth uploading as it was just a quick look and I got nowhere.

[PixieDreams]

How to get GuyPerfect's editor?

[geoo]

Check this post: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=1618.0

It also has a link with some instructions on how to use it.