Oh No! More Challenges!

[Clam]

Inspired by the old challenge thread, I have come up with some new challenges, based on the original (DOS) levels.

MAJOR EDIT: I have compiled my challenges together in this post so you don't have to trawl through the whole thread to find them

POINTS TO NOTE:
- These challenges are intended for DOS Lemmings (NOT the corrected version - sorry) and Lemmix. Other versions may be impossible (or too easy ).
- All challenges require 100% unless otherwise stated. In some cases it is VERY difficult to get the last few %.
- A (*) means the skills mentioned are just restrictions. You can use any other skills, within the limitations of the original level.
- You can't use more of a given skill than the original level has available.
- For pairs of levels with the same map but different stats, try to find one solution that works for both
- Many of these challenges require use of glitches.
- Custlemm splat height is not allowed (except Tame challenges).
- Timed challenges don't account for the glitch with pausing at the start (which doesn't work in Lemmix anyways).


THE CHALLENGES! Recently added challenges in bold.

GENERAL CHALLENGES: Any challenges that don't fit into the other categories.

Fun 8 - bashers and diggers only, or bashers and miners only.
Fun 20 - 1 builder. * (Extra challenge - 1 builder, no climbers, 1 minute*)
Fun 24 - 4 builders.
Tricky 24 - 2 builders, 1 minute. *
Tricky 28 - 98%, no terrain-destruction skills
Tricky 30 - 8 builders, 4 miners.
Taxing 8 - 3 builders. *
Taxing 12 - 2 builders. *
Taxing 26 - 5 builders. *
Mayhem 11 - 9 diggers. (Alternatively: Taxing 30 - 7 diggers, 1 minute)
Mayhem 13 - 1 builder. *
Crazy 12 - 2 builders. *
Crazy 13 - 95% (19/20) , no climbers or floaters. *
Crazy 15 - Pass the level going via the platform on the lower right.
Blitz 8 - Get everyone to the exit on the right.


BUILDER ONLY CHALLENGES: Other skills? Who needs 'em?

Fun 9/Tricky 26
Fun 10
Fun 16/Taxing 3
Fun 20
Fun 27
Tricky 6/Taxing 10
Taxing 15
Mayhem 18
Wild 3 - 66/80 (82%) (NOTE - elsewhere in the thread I said 65/80)
Wicked 13
Wicked 17
Wicked 18 (Extra challenge - 12 builders)
Frost 9
Blitz 10


NO BUILDER CHALLENGES: The tables have turned. How well can you do without that most valuable of tools?

Fun 26
Fun 29
Crazy 9
Flurry 9
Flurry 12
Blitz 15 - 10/15 (66%)
Frost 3
Hail 4 - 79/80 (98%)
Hail 15


TAME CHALLENGES: Based on the first 20 maps of ONML. Not so tame any more!
Challenge versions for Custlemm/Lemmix can be downloaded here (1-10) and here (11-20).

1 - 2 builders, 1 digger.
2 - 98%, 5 miners.
3 - 98%, 5 miners.
4 - 2 diggers.
5 - 1 basher, no miners or diggers. *
6 - miners only.
7 - 2 climbers, 1 blocker, 1 basher, 1 miner, 1 digger.
8 - 20 climbers, 2 builders, 1 minute.
9 - bashers only.
10 - 1 climber, 3 miners.
11 - 96%, 1 blocker, 3 builders, 2 diggers, 1 minute.
12 - 4 builders, 1 miner, 1 minute.
13 - 3 builders, 1 minute. *
14 - 8 builders.
15 - 94%, 3 blockers, 1 basher, 1 digger.
16 - 1 builder, 1 miner.
17 - 98%, no bashers, miners or diggers. *
18 - 1 basher, no miners or diggers. *
19 - 1 of each skill.
20 - 31 seconds.


CEILING ROUTES: That terrain along the top of the level is just for decoration, right? WRONG!

Fun 15
Tricky 1
Tricky 14
Tricky 25
Taxing 11
Taxing 28 - 56/80 (70%)
Mayhem 7 - 47/50 (94%)
Mayhem 10 - 71/75 (94%)
Crazy 8


XMAS LEMMINGS RECORDS: We've had Lemmings and ONML records. These are mentioned purely for the sake of completeness. Most of these aren't challenges at all, but some (including some of the 100% records) are challenge-worthy.

'91 3 (= Crazy 14) - lose 2
Flurry 16 - lose 1
Blitz 12 - lose 1
Blitz 15 - lose 5
Blitz 16 - lose 2
Frost - 6 - lose 1
Frost 14 - lose 6
Hail 2 - lose 4
Hail 6 - lose 40 (PLEASE do not try to improve on this unless you can set up some sort of computer simulation. It's pointless.)


If you have your own challenges, be sure to check the old thread first (a quick ctrl-f search should be enough) to see if your challenge has been beaten before.

[Dullstar]

I kinda have to use DosBOX 'cause I don't have Lemmix.

[DragonsLover]

(no one uses DOSBox for Lemmings any more, do they? )

I do, and always will, as it's the "original" and I also use the corrected version which adds the missing objects where the levels are supposed to be. Therefore, some of the challenges you listed don't work. Also, Lemmix doesn't work well under Win98SE.

However, how about doing a "hard" version of Lemmings by modifying all of the levels (excepted those that come twice in the game. We only have to modify one of the two) by making them insanely hard : less time possible, less skills possible and sometimes, with the max number of lemmings?

Recently, I did a modification of Fun 3 (Tailor-made for blockers) to make it very hard : 9 builders only, 2 minutes, 80 Lemmings, RR of 1. I don't know if it has already been done before, but if not, try that!

[Clam]

I also use the corrected version which adds the missing objects where the levels are supposed to be. Therefore, some of the challenges you listed don't work.

What does that mean? I'm not familiar with this version. Which challenges won't work?
EDIT: Wait, that's the one that has the water like in the Amiga version, right? Yeah, Fun 20 is going to be difficult then...

However, how about doing a "hard" version of Lemmings by modifying all of the levels (excepted those that come twice in the game. We only have to modify one of the two) by making them insanely hard : less time possible, less skills possible and sometimes, with the max number of lemmings?

I'd rather not go through the whole levelset. Some of the original maps (eg. Fun 1 / Tricky 15) don't seem to be greatly conducive to challenges, and others (Tricky 23, Taxing 18) have been done to death already in the old challenge thread, as well as some of the custom levelpacks.

Recently, I did a modification of Fun 3 (Tailor-made for blockers) to make it very hard : 9 builders only, 2 minutes, 80 Lemmings, RR of 1. I don't know if it has already been done before, but if not, try that!

Nice one!

[DragonsLover]

Hehe, thanks!

I also thought about some nasty ideas like : Tricky 7 (Been there, seen it, done it) and Tricky 13 (Lemming Drops) with builders, just builders, only builders. Or, We All Fall Down, with 80 Lemmings, but just 25 Diggers (or even less). How about "A Beast of a Level" with a single basher (or even none)! Oh, and did you try Mayhem 17 (Stepping Stones) with 5 builders?

There were some other ideas as well, but I don't remember them for now.

[Clam]

We All Fall Down, with 80 Lemmings, but just 25 Diggers (or even less).

How about 9 diggers? This was one of the challenges I had "in reserve" in case someone blitzed my first set, which I was half expecting. I suppose that was a little optimistic

Oh, and did you try Mayhem 17 (Stepping Stones) with 5 builders?

I think I did at some point. It seems I didn't take a replay at the time, but I remember how to do it.
EDIT: Just did it with 4.

Tricky 7 (Been there, seen it, done it) [...] with builders, just builders, only builders.

Wow, thats harsh . Given that it takes no less than 6 builders to cross to the last pillar, and another 8 (just tested this) to set up a direct drop (which, in the absence of other skills, is your only option)? That leaves only 6...


Now, I said I didn't want to make up challenges for the whole levelset, but there is one large subset that looks fairly conducive to challenges - the Tame levels. I know you sort of did this already DragonsLover, but you changed most of the maps. So, would anyone be interested in a new set of Tame challenges, on the original maps?

[Dullstar]

How about trying Not as Complicated as it Looks using only digging skills (Basher, Miner, Digger) and Builders (with 100%)?  It's possible, as I have done it before.

[-H0ru5-]

I'm trying to modify the original maps utilities to make some challenges because it is faster than drawing a new map XD They won't be sunsoft, of course, but complicated at least.

Question: is it called a challenge if I also add skills and modify release rate/time/to be saved? Or it is only a modification?

I checked some of the levels above... but how Living on the edge could be done with 2 builders if there are 5 pits, far from each other? I want to say, what's this corrected version which Clam Spammer mentioned?

Dragonslover: Tame levels don't have the possibility to modify them for challenges. They are way too simple.

Clam Spammer: How many have to be saved on Fun 3 with 9 builders, then? Seems interesting

[Clam]

Question: is it called a challenge if I also add skills and modify release rate/time/to be saved? Or it is only a modification?

Not sure, but personally I'd call it a modification unless it is doable within the specifications of the original level. Example (IMHO): Less skills, greater % to be saved and a shorter time limit would be challenges. Added skills, different total number of lemmings, changed release rate or more time (ie. the intended solution takes longer than the original level would allow) would be modifications. That's not to say that modifications aren't welcome here

I checked some of the levels above... but how Living on the edge could be done with 2 builders if there are 5 pits, far from each other?

I did say some of my challenges use glitches...

I want to say, what's this corrected version which Clam Spammer mentioned?

You'd have to ask someone who actually used it for details. All I know is that it changes the levels a bit to make them more like the Amiga version, which includes adding back the water objects that were removed for the DOS version.

Dragonslover: Tame levels don't have the possibility to modify them for challenges. They are way too simple.

I guess you haven't seen Mikepak13/14 then? Or did you mean to direct that comment at me? (In which case I still disagree )

Clam Spammer: How many have to be saved on Fun 3 with 9 builders, then? Seems interesting

100% (well, presumably 100%. DragonsLover didn't specify, but it's certainly possible to save everyone)

[-H0ru5-]

I checked some of the levels above... but how Living on the edge could be done with 2 builders if there are 5 pits, far from each other?

I did say some of my challenges use glitches...

You'd have to ask someone who actually used it for details. All I know is that it changes the levels a bit to make them more like the Amiga version, which includes adding back the water objects that were removed for the DOS version.

Well, no serious level modifications, then... or not in this case with the taxing 12. But then how??? (Takes another glance on the level, the 2 builder, then hides under the bed)

Dragonslover: Tame levels don't have the possibility to modify them for challenges. They are way too simple.

I guess you haven't seen Mikepak13/14 then? Or did you mean to direct that comment at me? (In which case I still disagree )

I already knew them... but I wrote about challenges and in the case you defined above, Mikepak 13/14 are modifications XD

100% (well, presumably 100%. DragonsLover didn't specify, but it's certainly possible to save everyone)

I was sure in it

[Clam]

I already knew them... but I wrote about challenges and in the case you defined above, Mikepak 13/14 are modifications XD

Actually, some of those levels are what I consider to be challenges. Probably best not to get too hung up on terminology though.

Anyway, in response to your original point - yes, the tame levels are simple, but that's because you get lots of skills and don't have to save many lemmings to pass. Take away most of these skills and put up the % requirements, and they become somewhat less simple (and that's what challenges are all about ). And because each level gives you 20 of everything to start with, there's plenty of ways to cut the available skills to make the levels more difficult.

[Dullstar]

I have a challenge for you!  Beat Save Me!  And with as many lemmings at the end as possible!  That should be quite the challenge, I have NO IDEA how to beat Save Me.

[Clam]

Your post reminded me that I hadn't managed to match the record for this level before (78/80, according to the old thread). Actually, I never even thought to try it. Well now I have


As for the other level you posted (Fun 8 - Not as complicated as it looks), how about trying to save 100% with:

• Builders only (also works for the Tricky version)
• Bashers and diggers only
• Bashers and miners only

[DragonsLover]

How about 9 diggers? This was one of the challenges I had "in reserve" in case someone blitzed my first set, which I was half expecting. I suppose that was a little optimistic

Hahaha!

I think I did at some point. It seems I didn't take a replay at the time, but I remember how to do it.
EDIT: Just did it with 4.

Yeah, it was around 5 but didn't remember the number exactly.

Wow, thats harsh . Given that it takes no less than 6 builders to cross to the last pillar, and another 8 (just tested this) to set up a direct drop (which, in the absence of other skills, is your only option)? That leaves only 6...

You can change the amount of Builders too, obviously.

I want to say, what's this corrected version which Clam Spammer mentioned?

I did a "corrected version" that makes the Dos levels to be like the ones of the Amiga by adding the missing objects and changing a few details. However, they aren't "totally" the same. Some objects, especially water, are moved a bit and some others deleted but they don't affect the gameplay and solution of levels at all. Also, Amiga supported 100 Lemmings, which is not the case with Dos that only supports 80 Lemmings on screen. So, for those levels that have 100 Lemmings, I had to change them so that there are 80 Lemmings.

You can get the now optimized corrected version here : Download.

Clam Spammer: How many have to be saved on Fun 3 with 9 builders, then? Seems interesting

100% (well, presumably 100%. DragonsLover didn't specify, but it's certainly possible to save everyone)

Yeah, it's 100%. It requires a good timing too.

But then how??? (Takes another glance on the level, the 2 builder, then hides under the bed)

Climbers are the key. Note however that it only works with Lemmix because the "glitch" :winktounge: doesn't work well under Dos. Try level 2 of my second Levelpak (Mikepak2) called : "Impossible?".

[Clam]

You can change the amount of Builders too, obviously.

Just because it's obvious to you, doesn't mean it is for everyone . I figured "builders only" meant only as many builders as you're allowed in the original level.

About Taxing 12 - the trick that I used has been mentioned before in a challenge context. It's somewhat tougher to execute in this case though...


Now a couple of other things: I have compiled a set of Tame challenges, as well as some personal records for the Xmas levels, but first there's a couple of things I'd like to ask about.

- Would you like me to put my Tame challenges into a Custlemm levelpack (or two), or should I just post them here? Forget it, I'll just post them...
- Does the corrected version cover the Xmas levels? I just had a browse through the Lemmings Encyclopedia and it looks like some of the terrain is different in the Amiga version, and one of the levels is completely different. I'm not sure if this will affect the max % scores though.
- (slightly off topic) Is the second rating of Xmas 93 "Blitz" or "Blizzard"? My sources conflict here...