Level Design Contest #33 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)

[Armani]

@JawaJuice
Close enough well done!

[Crane]

As a level designer, do you have any view on alternative solutions you hadn't considered? Or is everything that isn't very close to the intended solution a backroute?

I had another crack at R1, probably another backroute since I didn't use the basher. Gotta say, Crane, yours and Icho's levels are devilishly hard! XD

Backrouted again.  V3 is out.

If a solution is unique, beautiful or more difficult than what's intended, then it might be kept as a viable alternative.  It's very subjective though.

One recent example with my own levels... the original "Ice Cream Cake" was just one level with the "part two" solution as the intended one, but it had 2 bombers that were meant to be a red herring, but Armani playtested it for me and found a solution that was just too beautiful to pass up.  Coincidentally, this was at the same time that the previous contest was being run where you had to make a pair of levels with different skillsets, where one wasn't a subset of the other (so they had completely different solutions and one couldn't be performed in the other), so I withdrew my submission (which was the "Outside the box" levels) and submitted two versions of Ice Cream Cake... one with a bomber removed (to stop Armani's solution) and one with a climber removed (which wasn't required for Armani's solution)!

Sometimes you do get happy accidents.

[JawaJuice]

@JawaJuice

Your solutions to my R1 and R3 are intended! Great job!

For R1, there's actually two intended ways

Cheers, kaywhyn It was a pleasure playing your levels in this contest; I enjoyed them very much!

Spoiler

Ah OK, good to know. I did wonder whether the basher and miner might be interchangeable but didn't try it that way after finding my solution. The reason I went with the basher first isn't because I thought he couldn't do the job at the end, but rather that bashers are fractionally quicker than miners and I thought that slight difference in timing could be critical.

Heh, I like how you've played levels of mine that happen to require this and you are quick to associate this solution element with me, when in fact only one other level of mine (in one of the previous LDCs, not this one) requires this Yes, I do love this combo in general, but I've only used this as part of my intended solution just last year, 3 years after I first started level designing! This is also only one type and way of doing so. I haven't yet made other levels that involve this with the other skill types!

Spoiler

I seemed to recall your AWESOME Fire level used it as well when I said that but I may be misremembering there - was that one just blocker turns to extend the miner? Anyway, you're quite right, I can't jump to that conclusion based on a couple of levels. It was just a frivolous observation though I thought your use of the technique in your R3 level was very clever - I certainly didn't spot it as a possibility for quite a while and you might have less experienced players stumped.

[JawaJuice]

@JawaJuice
Close enough well done!

Nice! Cheers Armani Great levels in this contest; nice looking, and elegant puzzles. I haven't played a lot of your stuff before, been kind of frightened away by your reputation of making super hard levels but these weren't so bad. Challenging yes, but not insurmountable

[JawaJuice]

Backrouted again.  V3 is out.

If a solution is unique, beautiful or more difficult than what's intended, then it might be kept as a viable alternative.  It's very subjective though.

One recent example with my own levels... the original "Ice Cream Cake" was just one level with the "part two" solution as the intended one, but it had 2 bombers that were meant to be a red herring, but Armani playtested it for me and found a solution that was just too beautiful to pass up.  Coincidentally, this was at the same time that the previous contest was being run where you had to make a pair of levels with different skillsets, where one wasn't a subset of the other (so they had completely different solutions and one couldn't be performed in the other), so I withdrew my submission (which was the "Outside the box" levels) and submitted two versions of Ice Cream Cake... one with a bomber removed (to stop Armani's solution) and one with a climber removed (which wasn't required for Armani's solution)!

Sometimes you do get happy accidents.

I'll take another look It'll probably get to the point soon where I can no longer backroute it if I can't find the correct solution Thanks for the insight into the creation process! I'm no closer to solving Ice Cream Cake Part 2 btw, or Outside the Box 2. I think our brains work in quite different ways, you and I Not a bad thing at all, it just happens sometimes. I feel like your solutions sometimes require a degree of lateral thinking, which is not something I excel at - I'm a very logical person, being a computer programmer by trade! I can't even begin to do cryptic crosswords haha

[kaywhyn]

Cheers, kaywhyn It was a pleasure playing your levels in this contest; I enjoyed them very much!

Thanks for the compliment! Glad to hear you enjoyed my levels You've also done a great job with getting the other levels in the collection pack solved and finding some backroutes in the process. In particular, I haven't seen your solutions to Icho's R1 and R2, but I'm surprised you managed to backroute them because when I pre-tested his 3 entries I managed to get the intended solutions to all of them. Nice finds!

Spoiler

I seemed to recall your AWESOME Fire level used it as well when I said that but I may be misremembering there - was that one just blocker turns to extend the miner? Anyway, you're quite right, I can't jump to that conclusion based on a couple of levels. It was just a frivolous observation though I thought your use of the technique in your R3 level was very clever - I certainly didn't spot it as a possibility for quite a while and you might have less experienced players stumped.

No worries, I knew you were just messing around there with that remark I just thought it was funny that, out of the nearly 50 levels total I've made (some haven't been released yet, since they're for my WIP level pack) over a span of 4 (almost 5 now) years, I have only made about 5 levels that require keeping skills going and you thus associated me as someone who likes this element in my intended solutions There's other skill types that can do the job as well, and I've yet to make those levels!

Regarding the Fire level of mine you mentioned in the spoiler tag, I'm not going to say anything about the solution yet other than what I've already told you before about it being a backroute. I need to get a patch out for it, though I didn't realize I left it untouched for nearly 1.5 years How time flies haha.

Also, thank you for the feedback of my R3 regarding the difficulty. It is a bit surprising to hear that was the hardest part for you, but as a level designer you can't always predict what parts will stump players and what parts they'll figure out quickly. More often than not, designers often underestimate the difficulty of their levels, which is easy to do because you as the creator know what's intended while other players who play them don't. Moreover, just only seeing the intended solution is what makes us designers blind to backroutes! This is where other players sending in solutions and feedback come in very handy. That's why authors often get testers for their levels/packs!

I'm a very logical person, being a computer programmer by trade! I can't even begin to do cryptic crosswords haha

Oh nice, another computer programmer on the Forums! There's plenty of programmers/coders in this community. I'm not one, but I did have to take a C++ computer programming course in my undergrad for my math major. So yes, I'm the same way with being a logical person O.o, cryptic crosswords. Those are tough! Never tried one, but I know what those are. I can't even complete any kind of crossword puzzle from newspapers haha. At least not without doing them with another person or group of people      

[Crane]

...

I'll take another look It'll probably get to the point soon where I can no longer backroute it if I can't find the correct solution Thanks for the insight into the creation process! I'm no closer to solving Ice Cream Cake Part 2 btw, or Outside the Box 2. I think our brains work in quite different ways, you and I Not a bad thing at all, it just happens sometimes. I feel like your solutions sometimes require a degree of lateral thinking, which is not something I excel at - I'm a very logical person, being a computer programmer by trade! I can't even begin to do cryptic crosswords haha

Well. this is an interesting one, because I too am a computer programmer and my claim to fame is that I'm a core member and contributor of source code to the Free Pascal Compiler, specialising in optimisation and assembly language, so you can't get any more logical than that!  And yeah, I'm not too good at cryptic crosswords either, although I've managed to solve a few random clues, like "Bent coach stole confectionaries" (10 letters).

[JawaJuice]

Well. this is an interesting one, because I too am a computer programmer and my claim to fame is that I'm a core member and contributor of source code to the Free Pascal Compiler, specialising in optimisation and assembly language, so you can't get any more logical than that!  And yeah, I'm not too good at cryptic crosswords either, although I've managed to solve a few random clues, like "Bent coach stole confectionaries" (10 letters).

LOL what a clue - the mind boggles, or possibly recoils in horror! Wow, that's impressive stuff, Crane! I don't have much experience with assembly directly. I dabbled in 68k on the Atari ST but I've focused on high-level languages (mainly C++) in a professional capacity. You're right though, we have similar backgrounds. Perhaps I'm the less logical one after all; I've always been torn between the arts and science. My first degree was actually in English Language and Literature (so yes, odd career choice!)

Back to the topic in hand, your fix for your R1 level slowed me down but didn't stop me from bloody-mindedly pursuing my solution You forced me to use all of the skills this time tho!

[Crane]

I've made the most frustrating fix for you!  V4 coming up.

I've tried to balance the arts and science too, although I have always been very focused on mathematics, physics and computing.  It hasn't stopped me from doing some art and writing though.

[JawaJuice]

Thanks for the compliment! Glad to hear you enjoyed my levels You've also done a great job with getting the other levels in the collection pack solved and finding some backroutes in the process. In particular, I haven't seen your solutions to Icho's R1 and R2, but I'm surprised you managed to backroute them because when I pre-tested his 3 entries I managed to get the intended solutions to all of them. Nice finds!

Cheers! He hasn't confirmed yet, but I think I have now found the intended solutions for Icho's levels. I was surprised to backroute them too. I just normally take a path-of-least-resistance approach, rather than thinking about what the author might have intended, which sometimes leads to backroutes I guess! The exception to that was his R1 level. Initially, I couldn't really see how to do it at all, so it was more of an any-means-necessary approach, which I pretty much knew would be a backroute b/c who uses the basher/blocker trick as a key element to a solution? XD

Also, thank you for the feedback of my R3 regarding the difficulty. It is a bit surprising to hear that was the hardest part for you, but as a level designer you can't always predict what parts will stump players and what parts they'll figure out quickly. More often than not, designers often underestimate the difficulty of their levels, which is easy to do because you as the creator know what's intended while other players who play them don't. Moreover, just only seeing the intended solution is what makes us designers blind to backroutes! This is where other players sending in solutions and feedback come in very handy. That's why authors often get testers for their levels/packs!

If you want to put it in spoilers, I'd be curious to know what others have found to be the hardest part of your R3 level, because the rest seemed relatively straightforward to me. Working out how to release those two lemmings that fall into the little well was the main headache. As I've said, I'd love to be a playtester on your upcoming pack, so bear me in mind when the time comes for testing!

Oh nice, another computer programmer on the Forums! There's plenty of programmers/coders in this community. I'm not one, but I did have to take a C++ computer programming course in my undergrad for my math major.

C++, now you're talking my language

[Armani]

@JawaJuice
Thanks! I'm flattered.

If you want my more challenging stuff, you can check out my Halloween pack. Its overall difficulty is slightly above my usual contest level. But judging from how good you are at this game, it probably won't give you much trouble. I honestly don't know if my levels are that difficult though.
If you want something easier, you can look at Holiday Lemmings, which I collaborated on with Mobiethian! For that pack, I focused more on the visuals while keeping the puzzles simple.
There are also some much earlier levels I made, but those were literally the first ones I ever created, so I can't guarantee their goodness.

P.S. I used to be more of a math person back in the day, but these days I'm more into art.

[JawaJuice]

I've made the most frustrating fix for you!  V4 coming up.

I've tried to balance the arts and science too, although I have always been very focused on mathematics, physics and computing.  It hasn't stopped me from doing some art and writing though.

OK! I can confirm that completely nullifies any possibility of my previous backroute.

Spoiler

After the longest time of looking at this level, a completely different approach occurred to me, operating on the hypothesis that the climber and floater are actually complete red herrings designed to lead the player into a mental prison. I gotta say, I'm really pleased with this solution, even if it turns out not to be intended If it was intended, then well played Crane - very clever!

[IchoTolot]

@JawaJuice

Your solutions for my three entries are now intended! Great job! 

[Crane]

Your solution to Lemming Ledger is still a backroute unfortunately, and the intended solution is a bit more involved, so unfortunately can't be an alternative.  Got to think how to patch it without making things look too ugly!

[JawaJuice]

Argghh! Well I throw in the towel at this point then. This and your R3 level have defeated me.

I've enjoyed playing this contest, so thanks to all for letting me playtest it! For my money, Crane's levels are by far the hardest in the contest, given that I got intended solutions for everyone else's but only solved 1 out of 3 of his. It doesn't surprise me too much as I've been sampling some of his levels elsewhere, and they're among the toughest I've ever played.

Thanks for the fun and the banter, I'll catch you all down the line! Bear me in mind in you're ever looking for playtesters for your upcoming packs or levels!