Level Design Contest #33 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)

[JawaJuice]

You're pretty much spot on that my R1 level requires something obscure that isn't seen very often in custom Lemmings levels. For those who have seen it before, the level's no problem at all, but for those who haven't, it's a nasty level otherwise. Hence why I personally still consider my R1 a 5th/final rank level in my upcoming Lemmings Memories pack that's currently a work in progress even if the solution is obvious to the great level solvers of this community.

It's of course possible that I might stumble upon a trick I wasn't previously aware of just by ditching prior assumptions and trying many things, but perhaps not probable. Where do you stand on topics that detail advanced tricks? I read through Strato Incendus's Advanced Blocker Tricks topic (nothing on there I didn't already know, but interesting nonetheless, probably helpful for some) and the discussion that ensued makes for interesting reading. Opinions seemed mixed on whether such a topic was a good idea or tantamount to a cheat sheet. After a quick search, that's the only topic documenting tricks that I could find.

[JawaJuice]

@IchoTolot Got a solution for your R1 level.

Spoiler

I suspect it may be a backroute as not many creators use the basher/blocker trick as part of an intended solution in my experience! It was also incredibly tricky to pull off.

[JawaJuice]

I do have confidence that you'll be able to get my R1 solved before that happens though!  

Your confidence is well placed, it turns out 

Spoiler

Going back to it, I had a hunch and it worked straight away; just a process of elimination really. The lemming with the big fall has to be assigned a floater and climber, the lemmings on the far left have to be blocker and digger respectively, the other lemming has no option but to build, the final lemming has to bash through the barrier to get down in time to meet the former builder, which just leaves the miner and bomber. It occurred to me there are a few seconds before an Oh Noer explodes - long enough to mine him out and get safely to the exit. Neat trick! Haven't seen it before, but it does actually make sense and can be worked out logically.

Gonna be longer 'til my next post - all of the levels from Rule 3 are currently kicking my butt!

[Armani]

@JawaJuice

You found the intended solution! I'm glad you like the level.   Yeah, thinking backwards can really help sometimes.

Spoiler

I guess you could call this a trick. Every skill behaves as it normally does but the fact that the blocker is placed right at the edge of a cliff makes the interaction interesting.

regarding your solution to Icho's R1...

Spoiler

Ah yes, the infamous ultimate weapon for backrouting a level.   It's a very powerful tool for breaking things. If I really want my level to be backroute-proof, I check whether the level can be broken if blockers are replaced with any other skill that can cancel a basher(like the walker, builder, jumper, shimmier etc...) But these days I often just live with it and move on.

[JawaJuice]

You found the intended solution! I'm glad you like the level.   Yeah, thinking backwards can really help sometimes.

A very elegantly designed puzzle with only 1 of each skill. It's probably my favourite of the pack so far

OK, I finished your R3 level as well! That certainly took a lot of working out, but satisfying when it all clicks into place!

Spoiler

The light bulb moment with this one was realizing I only needed 1 builder, not 2, to catch the floater on the far right bit of the level

[Crane]

And here's your talisman A different (better!) solution.

Spoiler

Tricky to pull that off, that, having to start digging at the right spot so that the blocker falls through the 1-pixel gap to the right rather than left after the digger releases him.

EDIT: Also got a solution for your R1 level. I always dread you telling me it's another backroute - I seem better at finding backroutes for your levels than intended solutions lol

Spoiler

For the longest time, I was trying to mine down to the crowd with a climber/miner, but having used a builder to turn him around at the top, then bomb at the end of the miner tunnel but it was always one pixel too high - I'm sure you're aware of this! So I tried to find a different approach.

The talisman solution is intended, but your previous solution was a backroute, but easily fixed by lowering the height of the terrain slightly.  Obviously the regular intended solution doesn't require anywhere near as much precision, hence why the talisman is called "Now that's cheating!"

And to justify your fear, your solution to Lemming Ledger is a backroute and V2 has been released!

[JawaJuice]

The talisman solution is intended, but your previous solution was a backroute, but easily fixed by lowering the height of the terrain slightly.  Obviously the regular intended solution doesn't require anywhere near as much precision, hence why the talisman is called "Now that's cheating!"

And to justify your fear, your solution to Lemming Ledger is a backroute and V2 has been released!

Yeah, thought that would be the case - the Talisman solution to Redneck Redemption 'looked right' to me, the previous one didn't. Slightly surprised Lemming Ledger is a backroute tbh, although I did think it might be due to the leftover digger. Still, I can't immediately see any other way of doing the level.

Got a solution for your R3 level, which again, is almost certainly a backroute, but again, I can't see another way to do it!

[JawaJuice]

@kaywhyn Got a solution for your R3 level, which I'm fairly confident is intended.

Spoiler

You like your destructive skill extensions via builders don't you?

The only level in the pack that has me completely stumped at the moment is Icho's R3 level.

[Crane]

...
Got a solution for your R3 level, which again, is almost certainly a backroute, but again, I can't see another way to do it!

Indeed it is a backroute!  V3 released.

[IchoTolot]

@JawaJuice

Thanks for the 2 replays and you found some nice backroutes that need urgent fixing! 

I updated the levels so that in my R1 you cannot go over that ridge so easily and in my R2 I put a limiter on the exits so that you have to use both.   

[JawaJuice]

OK guys, I'll take another look! Hopefully it's clear to you that I don't mean to backroute your levels I am gunning for the intended solution, believe it or not! Still, this is the nature of playtesting I guess! It's fun getting to try out levels before they're officially released I suppose when you amend a level to fix a backroute, it should be a small clue as to the proper way to do it.

Incidentally, assuming my solution for Armani's R2 level was intended since he didn't say it wasn't.

[Crane]

As a level designer, backroutes are to be expected.  Obviously we hope we patched them properly, but backroutes happen, and we don't hold it against anyone if they find them.

[JawaJuice]

As a level designer, do you have any view on alternative solutions you hadn't considered? Or is everything that isn't very close to the intended solution a backroute?

I had another crack at R1, probably another backroute since I didn't use the basher. Gotta say, Crane, yours and Icho's levels are devilishly hard! XD

[JawaJuice]

@IchoTolot

I think we're good with R1 this time

Spoiler

Studying the terrain more carefully, the unusual sloping underside of the first block is a clue - about the same angle as a builder bridge, so suggests the top part of basher rails Neat level!

EDIT: And R2? It meets the criterion of one lemming to each exit, at least!
EDIT: And R3! That was a tough one!

[kaywhyn]

@JawaJuice

Your solutions to my R1 and R3 are intended! Great job!

For R1, there's actually two intended ways, since

Spoiler

the basher and miner are interchangeable in the solution It's true that the miner skill is a downwards moving destructive skill, but the basher skill's destruction mask starts at the row of the Lemming's feet and removes several rows of pixels above it too If you do it this way, you need to make sure to mine through the dart in the same way so that he is not delayed, i.e, you need to be right up against the dart when you assign the miner. Then the basher assignment to release the ohnoer is at nearly the same spot as the miner, just an extra pixel forward but the effect in the end is the same: The ohnoer touches the exit trigger on the ground in time before he explodes  

Spoiler

You like your destructive skill extensions via builders don't you?

Heh, I like how you've played levels of mine that happen to require this and you are quick to associate this solution element with me, when in fact only one other level of mine (in one of the previous LDCs, not this one) requires this Yes, I do love this combo in general, but I've only used this as part of my intended solution just last year, 3 years after I first started level designing! This is also only one type and way of doing so. I haven't yet made other levels that involve this with the other skill types!

It's of course possible that I might stumble upon a trick I wasn't previously aware of just by ditching prior assumptions and trying many things, but perhaps not probable. Where do you stand on topics that detail advanced tricks? I read through Strato Incendus's Advanced Blocker Tricks topic (nothing on there I didn't already know, but interesting nonetheless, probably helpful for some) and the discussion that ensued makes for interesting reading. Opinions seemed mixed on whether such a topic was a good idea or tantamount to a cheat sheet. After a quick search, that's the only topic documenting tricks that I could find.

Even though I am one of those Lemmings level solvers who doesn't like hints or spoilers of any kind, I personally don't mind such a thing existing. I think they're good to have, if only to serve as reminders for those who are already aware of them, since it can be kind of easy to overlook or forget them from time to time when solving levels. I myself have the tendency to overlook the simple parts of the solution while getting the complicated solution parts quickly If they're hidden behind spoilers like they are in that topic of Strato's, then those who prefer to avoid them can simply not open up what's behind the spoiler tags, while those who want to know can if they like.