Level Design Contest #33 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)

[kaywhyn]

@Armani

All your solutions are intended! Great job! Also thank you so much for your compliments, I'm glad you liked them!

For R1, there's actually two intended ways, since

Spoiler

the basher and miner are interchangeable with each other. The timing works out about the same, the only difference is a single pixel between the skill assignments.

Also yea, it works out perfectly because of how the L2 Sports exit is only a single pixel wide I originally wanted to use the ONML Bubble tileset for this ruleset, as it's my favorite graphic style from ONML, but the problem is that the exit's trigger is several pixels wide and thus one would be able to simply make the builder mine rather than require the assistance of the bottom  left middle Lemming. At the same time, I suppose it could still work with any other graphic set, if for example I line up the platform like I did here so that the far most side edge is in line with the far most side of the exit trigger so that if the Lemming doesn't manage to destroy the corner pixel then the miner will simply fall past the exit trigger. Oh well, plus I would need to use a lot of eraser pieces to make the platform thin enough anyway  

After some thought, yea, for now I'm just going to leave my R1 as a final rank level for Lemmings Memories. Sure, I kind of made the solution pretty obvious to expert level solvers like you, but it's still a pretty nasty level if one isn't aware of something like this

For R3, alternatively,

Spoiler

you can have the climber dig the right pillar instead to free the left-most entrance. That's fine as well

The no pickups version of this level is currently a bit harder for me to place in my Lemmings Memories pack, since I'm not certain how difficult it is. If anything, I'm thinking it's at least a rank 3 level. That and maybe 4th rank level maximum. Definitely not a 5th/final rank level, it's not THAT hard IMO!

You're going to hate me for this, kaywhyn!

Heh, why would I? On the contrary, I appreciate you catching this one that I missed! For V3 I shifted the terrain so that it shouldn't be possible to cheese anymore no matter how you place that basher the way you did!     

[IchoTolot]

@Armani   You solutions are all intended/acceptable alternatives, great job! 

Yeah, I spent quite a bit of time planning out my R2 level so no backroutes open up and create everything in a clean way.

[Armani]

here're the solutions to my own levels
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRdHVcEym9k&list=PLYzhWZf5q4HtJ9Une6MN-vW_WY1tLo4iN&index=7

[JawaJuice]

Hi! Hopefully this topic is open to all, not just the authors? I thought I'd give these levels a playtest

TBH I was about to give up after to failing to complete any of the levels in R1 (Armani's I just have no idea lol, it seems impossible, Crane's I always seem to be one pixel shy of a solution whatever I do, IchoTolot's I find I'm a skill short of being able to do it and kaywhyn's, I feel I have what must be the solution but the timing means I can only save 4 out of 5). But then I tried R2, and it seemed significantly easier. I dunno whether that was intentional?

Anyway, my replays for R2 attached - hopefully they are your intended solutions. I enjoyed all of these levels, especially Armani's Rusty Ruin Zone, which was the most challenging of the four I'd say.

[kaywhyn]

@JawaJuice

Your solution to my R2 is intended! Great job and thank you for playing! Regarding my R1, yea, it's a pretty sneaky one, so I think I was right to make the decision to leave it as a final rank level of my upcoming Lemmings Memories pack for the time being

Hi! Hopefully this topic is open to all, not just the authors? I thought I'd give these levels a playtest

Absolutely! These levels are open to anyone who wants to play them, not just the authors In the same way, there's no requirement that you must make levels to register to be a member of this site. There's plenty of members here who play levels/packs but don't create levels or vice versa, for example. I myself was once the former when I first signed up, but with some support and encouragement from Icho and several others to give the level making side a try, I decided to try my hand at level designing! I personally am not satisfied with some of my early Lemmings stuff, but I have improved slowly and steadily with my designs over the last several years according to several in this community I've also been told that my puzzles/solutions have always been excellent, it was the visuals that had plenty of room for improvement, but I think I'm pretty much there now for the most part even though I myself have never been an artist and still am not.

As mentioned in another topic, you can also play some of mine and other people's contest levels in Armani's LDC Compilation pack  

But then I tried R2, and it seemed significantly easier. I dunno whether that was intentional?

There's generally no natural progression of increasing difficulty with the contest levels since these collection packs consists of levels from various authors. As you have already seen from trying these levels, some members tend to be associated with challenging levels. Both Icho and Armani here are a really good example. With the former, for example, yea, I generally have the same experiences with usually being a skill short anytime I play Icho's levels.

As for my stuff, I have the tendency to think my levels aren't that hard "relatively speaking" to the other levels in these contest collections. I still think this even though I've been given feedback plenty of times that my levels are challenging, which as you might guess surprises me to hear that. I have apparently made even Icho and Armani sweat hard with my levels, and the latter has even been kind enough to let me know within the past year that my more recent stuff is harder than his more recent levels Suffice to say, I probably haven't quite reached the high end of difficulty Icho and Armani can make with their levels yet, though I suspect I'm not that far behind them in that area

Some rulesets are very restrictive and challenging to design around and meet criteria for and hence some rulesets will have levels that are significantly easier than others for the most part. Even then, it's still very much possible to be able to make a challenging level regardless of how restrictive the rulesets are if one knows how and does it with proper care

You can see the rulesets I came up with for LDC #33 in more detail here: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=7212.0. This link is also in the OP on page 1 in this topic  

[JawaJuice]

No worries, @kaywhyn - I enjoyed playing R2 very much! I think your level looks great with the Dune tileset. It also gave me the most pause for thought outside of Armani's level in this rank, despite the minimal skillset. A nicely designed puzzle.

I think possibly R2 plays to my strengths: I tend to do quite well with only 1 or 2 lemmings (aside from Dexter's Lock and Key haha). On the other hand, I typically don't do so well with very limited skillsets where if I can't see the solution, it feels like there aren't that many things to try. I'll move onto R3 and circle back to R1 later; with the exception of Armani's level, I did come fairly close to solving the others. Yours sounds like it needs a trick, which I may not be aware of - I've played the game long enough to know most standard tricks, but there are still some obscure ones I probably don't.

[Crane]

Your solution to "Redneck Redemption" is a backroute - nice find @JawaJuice.  Released V2 in the Update thread.

[JawaJuice]

Thought it seemed a bit easy! I'll give V2 a look.

[JawaJuice]

Not a lot different, but forced to use all skills this time, except the bomber obviously.

[Crane]

Ah, damn, I posted the wrong version!  This was a fix I rejected because, yeah, that!  V3 incoming.

[JawaJuice]

I realized I also forgot the Talisman with that replay anyway Will check V3

[kaywhyn]

No worries, @kaywhyn - I enjoyed playing R2 very much! I think your level looks great with the Dune tileset. It also gave me the most pause for thought outside of Armani's level in this rank, despite the minimal skillset. A nicely designed puzzle.

Aww, thank you for the compliment telling me that I used Icho's Dune set well! I'm glad you liked my R2

I think possibly R2 plays to my strengths: I tend to do quite well with only 1 or 2 lemmings (aside from Dexter's Lock and Key haha).

Ah, you have indeed noticed that I did manage to solve all of Dexter's Lock & Key pack Don't worry about being stumped and needing to take a break from the pack. I too had to put my LP of the pack on a brief hold for a bit when I wasn't able to get Solitude 5 solved. Luckily for me, it didn't take as long for me to get unstuck as I thought, but yea, I struggled so much throughout the entire thing. Icho was even nice enough to let me know that some of the levels of the pack I solved easily he had a hard time with and vice versa. There you have it here: Proof that even those who most in this community consider some of the best level solvers of Lemmings get stuck too!

On the other hand, I typically don't do so well with very limited skillsets where if I can't see the solution, it feels like there aren't that many things to try. I'll move onto R3 and circle back to R1 later; with the exception of Armani's level, I did come fairly close to solving the others. Yours sounds like it needs a trick, which I may not be aware of - I've played the game long enough to know most standard tricks, but there are still some obscure ones I probably don't.

The fact that you've come really close with being able to save 4/5 for my R1 is quite impressive. Well done! Yea, you're close but not quite there yet. You're pretty much spot on that my R1 level requires something obscure that isn't seen very often in custom Lemmings levels. For those who have seen it before, the level's no problem at all, but for those who haven't, it's a nasty level otherwise. Hence why I personally still consider my R1 a 5th/final rank level in my upcoming Lemmings Memories pack that's currently a work in progress even if the solution is obvious to the great level solvers of this community.

Also, for contests, before the end of the playing phase, I generally record videos showing off solutions to these levels, as well as go over the intended solutions of my own levels. So, if you still haven't managed to figure out my R1 before then, you could always wait for the video where I go over my own levels to go up. When that happens, I link to it in this topic I do have confidence that you'll be able to get my R1 solved before that happens though!  

[JawaJuice]

@Crane Non-Talisman solution for V3, and possibly another backroute because no refinement to this solution would get it under a minute.

This level is harder than I initially gave it credit for! Should have known with you, Crane

[JawaJuice]

And here's your talisman A different (better!) solution really.

Spoiler

Tricky to pull that off, that, having to start digging at the right spot so that the blocker falls through the 1-pixel gap to the right rather than left after the digger releases him.

EDIT: Also got a solution for your R1 level. I always dread you telling me it's another backroute - I seem better at finding backroutes for your levels than intended solutions lol

Spoiler

For the longest time, I was trying to mine down to the crowd with a climber/miner, but having used a builder to turn him around at the top, then bomb at the end of the miner tunnel but it was always one pixel too high - I'm sure you're aware of this! So I tried to find a different approach.

[JawaJuice]

Against all the odds, I managed to solve Armani's R1 level, Underroot Genius level really.

Spoiler

You kind of have to think backwards, sending the climber on a long journey first, and even then, how to utilize the digger took some working out! I guess this makes use of the trick (is it a trick?) that a blocker on the tip of a precipice can stop the crowd one way but doesn't prevent a climber from passing in the other direction.