Ah yes, PimoreLems!

[Guigui]

I also cleared levels 1 to 10 with the Talismans. Looks like I'm not yet to the harder ones.

I think I did the same blocker-basher weird thing in The Strange Relics of Lemnos. Must say I have no idea how it works exactly, my method is : just flood the basher area, make a blocker above the ground before the basher, and hope for both of them to cancel.

Curious to know what the intended solution is for this talisman, I can see no other way to the exit with minimal builders than the whole revolution around the level, and I have no idea how to stop this basher w/o the weird blocker trick. Have you found something else JawaJuice ?

[JawaJuice]

I think I did the same blocker-basher weird thing in The Strange Relics of Lemnos. Must say I have no idea how it works exactly, my method is : just flood the basher area, make a blocker above the ground before the basher, and hope for both of them to cancel.

Curious to know what the intended solution is for this talisman, I can see no other way to the exit with minimal builders than the whole revolution around the level, and I have no idea how to stop this basher w/o the weird blocker trick. Have you found something else JawaJuice ?

Nope! I thought I'd wait for Pieuw's updated level but I agree with you - I don't see any other way to do this level with a single builder other than sending them around the houses and utilizing the basher-blocker trick to prevent the guy bashing all the way through without wasting a builder to stop him (because you need the builder later). Incidentally, the trick works by having a lemming that's about to have the ground bashed from under his feet assigned a blocker, which means that he then reverts to a standard walker as the bash cycle is completed, whilst simultaneously turning the basher around. You flood the area because it's very hard to get a lemming in just the right position to turn him into a blocker, so this maximizes the chance of hitting the right frame. I'm not really sure why it even works from a physics perspective, but it does - it's probably debatable whether it's a glitch rather than a trick. Most level creators seem to hate it, so as I say, I usually know it will be deemed a backroute if it's part of my solution. Sometimes though (like here), I can see no alternative!

[Pieuw]

Thank you Guigui! I will take a look at those as soon as possible, but I'll be busy this weekend.

Regarding the basher/blocker trick, doesn't it work similarly to the digger/blocker one? The blocker being canceled right away, making the worker turn around immediately.

You both have the right general idea about Lemnos but there's no need for any precision trick like this one. This is true for all the others talismans too

[JawaJuice]

Regarding the basher/blocker trick, doesn't it work similarly to the digger/blocker one? The blocker being canceled right away, making the worker turn around immediately.

Yeah, that's true. Unlike the basher, it's not visually obvious that the digger has changed directions, but you're right, he has. I suppose it does make sense then! It's odd then that no-one has an issue with the digger-blocker trick, but everyone dislikes basher-blocker.

[IchoTolot]

Regarding the basher/blocker trick, doesn't it work similarly to the digger/blocker one? The blocker being canceled right away, making the worker turn around immediately.

Yeah, that's true. Unlike the basher, it's not visually obvious that the digger has changed directions, but you're right, he has. I suppose it does make sense then! It's odd then that no-one has an issue with the digger-blocker trick, but everyone dislikes basher-blocker.

I would say the main gripe here is that the basher-blocker behavior is pixel precise and a real hassel to reproduce and it is not that logical that the basher removes terrain under the blocker while he should already be turned (or the blocker turns the basher when he should already be freed).

Digger-blocker on the other hand is mechanically consistent and not very precise. Blocker has been placed down -> digger is inside the blockers trigger and gets turned if he is looking in the other direction -> digger releases blocker. Only the visual confirmation is missing as you already mentioned. But otherwise it follows the rule that the blocker turns everything facing the other way in its designated area.
And here the basher-blocker confusion is actually resolved! If you place the blocker right when the digger digs further the blocker gets instantly released and does not turn the digger in the same frame as I recall!

[Proxima]

Yeah, that's true. Unlike the basher, it's not visually obvious that the digger has changed directions, but you're right, he has. I suppose it does make sense then! It's odd then that no-one has an issue with the digger-blocker trick, but everyone dislikes basher-blocker.

For starters, it's simply not true that no-one has an issue with digger-blocker turnaround; this mechanic has provoked discussion before, and some have felt it to be unfair.

But more importantly (in my view), there is a huge difference between the two mechanics. If a digger and a blocker overlap, there's no reason why the digger would not be able to remove the terrain under the blocker, freeing him. That part isn't in question; what is in question is whether the digger should turn -- and that he should turn is implied as a special case of "blockers can turn any lemming". With the basher-blocker trick, it's obvious that the basher should turn, and that isn't in question; what is in question is whether the basher should also be able to free the blocker at the same time. And that is not easily answerable as a special case of any general mechanic.

One reason why many of us (including me) dislike the mechanic and consider it more of a bug is that it is very precise, and that makes it hard for new players to discover, which means any level relying on it is potentially unfair.

In addition, this is a mechanic that was never in the original games, whereas digger-blocker turnaround is in most (maybe all?) versions of original Lemmings. It was never necessary for solving the original levels, but it was always possible, and was discovered during challenges (in particular, the first solution to maximum saved on Wild 15).

[Guigui]

The biggest difference I see between the digger-blocker and the basher-blocker interaction is that the digger does not get canceled, whereas the basher gets canceled by the blocker. This makes a huge difference.

Also the digger case always ends up with the same scenario of the digger turning direction, whereas the basher case may end up with all possible outcomes depending on when/where the blocker is set. This is certainly why most people tend to dislike it : the game is all about actions and their consequences, so when very similar looking actions result in very different consequences, players may get upset.

Oh well, sorry to derail Pieuw's thread, we were just searching for another way to solve The Strange Relics of Lemnos' talisman.

[Guigui]

Hey there Pieuw (fun fact is that I'm from France too, Poitiers)

I could clear the Calm rank of PimoreLems with the talisman, with the exception of Ancient Crash Site (dont know how to do Talisman either) and Spring Break (can not go through the 2 OWW at the beginning, I am not that good at miners fests).

Lots of fun had here. I must say that the talismans make things way harder than regular levels. Usually I first played the levels without even looking at talisman requirement, then I cleared again trying the talisman. This is why you may find 2 or 3 replays for some levels ; the ones with later timestamp being the talismans.

If you release the pack as is, I suggest mentionning clearly that talismans are hard. Or else new players may be turned off if they think the first rank is easy !

I'm giving thoughts on the levels that struck me the most :

Spoiler

Emerald Cave This one was hard to spot for me : after the builders we realize that we have 2 builders left to contain the crowd somewhere. I could do it in a precise spot at the right of the level, intended I guess ?

Lemming Falls I love the water fall in this level, tricky design 
I used the floating piece of grass to avoid the splat for the crowd, not sure if intended.

The Strange Relics of Lemnos Still dont know how to do it without cancelling the upper left basher in some mysterious way.

Minimal Design I guess I have the save 15 solution you mentionned earlier. Gotta make splatforms in an optimal way : one bridge to both avoid splat and go over the blocker previously set for turn around.
It did not take me long to figure it out because, luckily, I just played the Mobilems pack in which the level If a Lemming Falls uses a very similar technique. This level had me stuck for a week!

The Italian Job Execution was pain here : mine too early and lemmings may splat if they have not joined the crowd yet ; mine too late and you get a bunch of close lemmings some of which may fall from one pixel too high and splat.
There must be something I overlooked here to make the miner easier to set.

Standard Test Chamber Wow ! A tribute to Portal in a Lemmings level, great idea. The two best puzzle games ever in one, brilliant.

One remark though : two heart cubes ? There is only one of them in Portal 1 for sure, and tons of them in Portal 2. Breaking the unicity or the extreme multiplicity of those cubes here seems like a weird idea.
Also a suggestion : definitely put a tiny "The cake is a lie" or "The lem is a lie" text in some corner of the level !

Anyway, great level. For the resolution I came to the conclusion that one needs to first get to the middle part to push the button, then get to the upper part with the crowd to the exit. So in the meantime I had to fill the hole leading to the middle part. Was that the intended way ?
How does it compare to JawaJuice solution ?

Voltaic Mosaics Not that hard even with a single miner. I must apologize that my solutions here are a complete mess as I was improvising most of the time.

What Happened in Sovogda Love the design and the red moon. Why not set the depart screen to this moon and starting area, as you did in The Italian Job starting zoomed on the helicopter ?

Clumps I also have a save all and no destructive solution. Walkers are that strong.

Iron Industry Very nice level. Regular clear does not need any pickups at all, and talisman needs all of them. As often with pickups, I cannot decide if they make things harder or easier actually. I mean looking at the level you can quickly see in which order to go and pick them, and this kind of gives away the solution. Though if you were to give the skills readily available, then the level would fall apart. So yes, pickups are double edged.

[Pieuw]

@Guigui Bien le bonjour,

If you release the pack as is, I suggest mentionning clearly that talismans are hard. Or else new players may be turned off if they think the first rank is easy !

For sure! I wasn't kidding when I talked about "challenges". Some talismans are breathers though, and I will try to set the colors accordingly.

Putting everything else into a spoiler section because why not

Spoiler

Correct solutions
The Bad Beginning - Of course
We Are Lem-Bob-Omb!
Lemstones - You used the intended side.
Cloud-Covered Stalactites - Your solution is the same as JawaJuice's. Rewatching my replay, I noticed that I only use 5 bashers so I may tweak the talisman to require a more optimized (and elegant) route
It's a Kind Lembourhood
Minimal Design - Your second replay is correct! You can make it a bit easier by setting the three blockers right away at the beginning, as setting a blocker among packed lemmings is sometimes a nightmare
The Italian Job - Well done! There are ways to ensure lemmings won't splat, execution doesn't have to rely on luck here. You can take a look a JawaJuice's replay for a good example of this
Pagoda St.
Voltaic Mocaics - Your 100% solution was fun to watch
What Happened in Sovogda? - Different from my solution but still valid.
Iron Industry - Here I only wanted to make a fun puzzle, divided in several little steps. The pickups making the order obvious is not an issue to me

Backroutes
Emerald Cave - Clever, but not intended. Won't be too hard to fix I guess
Better Run for Shelter - Right side is correct, left side is not. Fixin JawaJuice's backroute should also fix this one.
The Strange Relics of Lemnos - Your talisman solution uses the whole layout so it's kind of right but this basher/blocker trick makes it messier than the intended route. It even makes it harder as the intended solution doesn't require such timing or precision. I may remove blockers from this level as they're not even useful for the vanilla solution. Or I could just add a requirement to the talisman.
Standard Test Chamber - Very nifty solution! Not intended, but I like it. Like JawaJuice's it required way more precision than the intended solution though.
Clumps - Yes. I will need to rethink about this level for sure! Even if your solution it really solid, it's very far from what I had in mind for this level.

Alternative solutions
Training Day - Interesting! I intended for all the lemmings to get to the left side exit. But you still used the basher correctly so I'd say your solution is valid too.

Glitched?
Lemming Falls - Not sure what's happening here but your replay only saves the worker, the other lemmings all splat. I also tried the replay from your previous attachment with the same result. What floating piece of grass are you referring to?

Not solved
Ancient Crash Site - I won't say much because I don't want to give unwanted spoilers, but a good part of your solution is correct.
Spring Break - Well done nevertheless. This ascending basher stairway is a work of art


And to answer a few of your remarks:

Lemming Falls

I love the water fall in this level, tricky design 

I was worried about the vertical water looking weird but it kind of works so it's nice


Standard Test Chamber

One remark though : two heart cubes ? There is only one of them in Portal 1 for sure, and tons of them in Portal 2. Breaking the unicity or the extreme multiplicity of those cubes here seems like a weird idea.
Also a suggestion : definitely put a tiny "The cake is a lie" or "The lem is a lie" text in some corner of the level !

Ah, as usual I got carried away with decorating this level and put another cube to the right side. Me and my symmetry obsession Removing the second cube would make sense. I thought about adding other Portal references but 1/ it's haaaaard and 2/ I didn't want to make the level too on the nose. Buuuuut anything may still change of course

How does it compare to JawaJuice solution ?

I'd say it's similar in the general idea and trick used, but yours is cleaner, if I can say it that way. Not to dispraise their solution, of course!


What Happened in Sovogda?

Why not set the depart screen to this moon and starting area, as you did in The Italian Job starting zoomed on the helicopter ?

I tried to set the start view as high as possible, keeping the floor visible. Making only the moon visible would be annoying as the played would have to scroll to reach the trapdoor. Speaking of this, I'm not sure what I did is optimal for all screen sizes. I only tested this on my laptop so it may vary for other users About vertical levels, I set their width so it would exactly fit on my screen without having to scroll to the sides but here again it may not work for all screen sizes.
Also, it's not a moon and the whole level is just a big reference.

I will make edits when I got some time and attach another archive at some point. To make the topic less of a mess, I think I will attach it to the very first post and add a version update section to it.

[JawaJuice]

All in spoilers, just in case

Spoiler

Ancient Crash Site - I won't say much because I don't want to give unwanted spoilers, but a good part of your solution is correct.

Took a look at Guigui's replay for this level and it's effectively the same as mine (see last replay), in that he ends up with the infinitely looping climber. He took a more circuitous route but the end result is the same! I will say that it's easily the hardest talisman of the rank as it's the only one yet to be solved. Even if a couple of my other solutions are backroutes, I'm confident I'll be able to get the talismans for the fixed levels Well, Lemnos is a bit of head-scratcher actually, if the basher/blocker trick is prevented; this one though, no idea at present how to get around that climber problem.

[IchoTolot]

Here are my solutions.

All talismans cleared and in a few cases a little bit extra like 20/20 on "20 _Spring_Break". 

I really like the new takes! 

"19_Iron_Industry" looked a bit intimidating at first but once you structure the level in your head it becomes much easier.

The biggest challange was "12_Ancient_Crash_Site" alongside setting up the 1 miner solution to "16_Voltaic Mosaics" and "11_Minimal_Design".

My favorite level is "09_The_Strange_Relics_of_Lemnos"! 

I attached my solutions! 

[Guigui]

Once again Icho ruled us all out, congrats!

Spoiler

The Strange Relics Of Lemnos had to be done the other way around, always hard to see but it solves both problems of where to put the bridge, and not having to cancel that basher.

Your Ancient Crash Site solution is a marvel. Save a bridge by making bridges in an unnatural way at the beginning. This level is on par with Armani's best tricky designs, reminds me a lot of Underroot in the last contest.

Also 100% on Spring Break looks easy when you watch Ico do it. For some reason, I'm just not that good at seeing how to use multiple miners.