Ah yes, PimoreLems!

[Guigui]

I also cleared levels 1 to 10 with the Talismans. Looks like I'm not yet to the harder ones.

I think I did the same blocker-basher weird thing in The Strange Relics of Lemnos. Must say I have no idea how it works exactly, my method is : just flood the basher area, make a blocker above the ground before the basher, and hope for both of them to cancel.

Curious to know what the intended solution is for this talisman, I can see no other way to the exit with minimal builders than the whole revolution around the level, and I have no idea how to stop this basher w/o the weird blocker trick. Have you found something else JawaJuice ?

[JawaJuice]

I think I did the same blocker-basher weird thing in The Strange Relics of Lemnos. Must say I have no idea how it works exactly, my method is : just flood the basher area, make a blocker above the ground before the basher, and hope for both of them to cancel.

Curious to know what the intended solution is for this talisman, I can see no other way to the exit with minimal builders than the whole revolution around the level, and I have no idea how to stop this basher w/o the weird blocker trick. Have you found something else JawaJuice ?

Nope! I thought I'd wait for Pieuw's updated level but I agree with you - I don't see any other way to do this level with a single builder other than sending them around the houses and utilizing the basher-blocker trick to prevent the guy bashing all the way through without wasting a builder to stop him (because you need the builder later). Incidentally, the trick works by having a lemming that's about to have the ground bashed from under his feet assigned a blocker, which means that he then reverts to a standard walker as the bash cycle is completed, whilst simultaneously turning the basher around. You flood the area because it's very hard to get a lemming in just the right position to turn him into a blocker, so this maximizes the chance of hitting the right frame. I'm not really sure why it even works from a physics perspective, but it does - it's probably debatable whether it's a glitch rather than a trick. Most level creators seem to hate it, so as I say, I usually know it will be deemed a backroute if it's part of my solution. Sometimes though (like here), I can see no alternative!

[Pieuw]

Thank you Guigui! I will take a look at those as soon as possible, but I'll be busy this weekend.

Regarding the basher/blocker trick, doesn't it work similarly to the digger/blocker one? The blocker being canceled right away, making the worker turn around immediately.

You both have the right general idea about Lemnos but there's no need for any precision trick like this one. This is true for all the others talismans too

[JawaJuice]

Regarding the basher/blocker trick, doesn't it work similarly to the digger/blocker one? The blocker being canceled right away, making the worker turn around immediately.

Yeah, that's true. Unlike the basher, it's not visually obvious that the digger has changed directions, but you're right, he has. I suppose it does make sense then! It's odd then that no-one has an issue with the digger-blocker trick, but everyone dislikes basher-blocker.

[IchoTolot]

Regarding the basher/blocker trick, doesn't it work similarly to the digger/blocker one? The blocker being canceled right away, making the worker turn around immediately.

Yeah, that's true. Unlike the basher, it's not visually obvious that the digger has changed directions, but you're right, he has. I suppose it does make sense then! It's odd then that no-one has an issue with the digger-blocker trick, but everyone dislikes basher-blocker.

I would say the main gripe here is that the basher-blocker behavior is pixel precise and a real hassel to reproduce and it is not that logical that the basher removes terrain under the blocker while he should already be turned (or the blocker turns the basher when he should already be freed).

Digger-blocker on the other hand is mechanically consistent and not very precise. Blocker has been placed down -> digger is inside the blockers trigger and gets turned if he is looking in the other direction -> digger releases blocker. Only the visual confirmation is missing as you already mentioned. But otherwise it follows the rule that the blocker turns everything facing the other way in its designated area.
And here the basher-blocker confusion is actually resolved! If you place the blocker right when the digger digs further the blocker gets instantly released and does not turn the digger in the same frame as I recall!

[Proxima]

Yeah, that's true. Unlike the basher, it's not visually obvious that the digger has changed directions, but you're right, he has. I suppose it does make sense then! It's odd then that no-one has an issue with the digger-blocker trick, but everyone dislikes basher-blocker.

For starters, it's simply not true that no-one has an issue with digger-blocker turnaround; this mechanic has provoked discussion before, and some have felt it to be unfair.

But more importantly (in my view), there is a huge difference between the two mechanics. If a digger and a blocker overlap, there's no reason why the digger would not be able to remove the terrain under the blocker, freeing him. That part isn't in question; what is in question is whether the digger should turn -- and that he should turn is implied as a special case of "blockers can turn any lemming". With the basher-blocker trick, it's obvious that the basher should turn, and that isn't in question; what is in question is whether the basher should also be able to free the blocker at the same time. And that is not easily answerable as a special case of any general mechanic.

One reason why many of us (including me) dislike the mechanic and consider it more of a bug is that it is very precise, and that makes it hard for new players to discover, which means any level relying on it is potentially unfair.

In addition, this is a mechanic that was never in the original games, whereas digger-blocker turnaround is in most (maybe all?) versions of original Lemmings. It was never necessary for solving the original levels, but it was always possible, and was discovered during challenges (in particular, the first solution to maximum saved on Wild 15).

[Guigui]

The biggest difference I see between the digger-blocker and the basher-blocker interaction is that the digger does not get canceled, whereas the basher gets canceled by the blocker. This makes a huge difference.

Also the digger case always ends up with the same scenario of the digger turning direction, whereas the basher case may end up with all possible outcomes depending on when/where the blocker is set. This is certainly why most people tend to dislike it : the game is all about actions and their consequences, so when very similar looking actions result in very different consequences, players may get upset.

Oh well, sorry to derail Pieuw's thread, we were just searching for another way to solve The Strange Relics of Lemnos' talisman.