[V4] Sweet 'N' Sour Lemmings: a bite-size level pack [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]

[Guigui]

Here are my updated replays. Now the whole thing looks less prone to backroutes, good job.

Also I forgot to mention, but I love the post level screen texts ! I always feel bad when I read "SOMEONE wanted to watch the world burn", and that SOMEONE is me    Come one lets aknowledge it, we did plenty of nukes in our Lemmings player lives just for the fun of it !

Some comments on the new settings affecting my previous replays :

Spoiler

Sour 5 / Sweet 2 (major design change, Sour 5 solution change)
Sweet 2 is still very accessible due to the 50% save required. But it prepares well for Sour 5.

Sour 5 was another story, quite hard now ! I used the "turn a miner with a blocker" trick to save miners needed on the right part of the level. Though the hardest part at the end was to turn that miner so that the crowd does not splat. By some kind of miracle and after many tries, I did it and unwillingly made a precise settings which uses "you fall between diagonal connecting pixels". With this setting, not only the crowd does not splat, but they all fall down in the good direction ! So I even saved a blocker here. Not sure this is intended ?

Sour 6 (design tweaks, solution overhaul). Now I find the level actually easier than before, but this may be because i did not find intended last time and struggled a lot with the timer. I think it is perfectly fine now.
The hardest part for me was to figure out how to save some time at the end : if you set the last delaying basher not high enough, the crowd will make a long way before turning back and you run out of time ! Setting it properly leaves plenty time and I could even save 100%

[Flopsy]

I took the time to play this pack and recorded myself doing so. Well worth coming out of NL retirement briefly to do so I should also add 

Some very good levels in this pack, I especially enjoyed solving Sour 5 and 6.

It's only one video of about an hour long, the pack was a good length I thought.

Sweet 'n' Sour Lems LP by Flopsy

Please make more levels TomatoWatcher, these levels were a very good taster of what you're really capable of! 

[JawaJuice]

You've done a good job of addressing the backroutes that were found here, @The Tomato Watcher. Only one of my old replays still worked with the updated levels ( Long Road to Nowhere (3 from Sweet rank)). A few only required minor tweaks to my previous solutions, but agree with @Guigui that Through Thick and Thin (5 from Sour rank) is now quite tricky. This is the one updated level that gave me a degree of head-scratching before hitting on the solution. Also agree with Guigui, that final level (6 from Sour), The Institution, is somehow easier than before but that's only because, like him, I think, I came up with some convoluted backroute that was really difficult to pull off in terms of timing. Don't get me wrong, it's still not easy by any means, but finding the proper solution is more intuitive now.

Spoiler

I dunno why, but the hardest part was seeing where the delaying basher should be placed and also that the height where you start bashing is important. Overall, an excellent level - very neat design.

@Guigui I think we had the same solution for Sour 5, by the sounds of it

Spoiler

I didn't find the turning of the miner with the blocker was that critical, though maybe I just lucked out.

Overall, I can only concur with what @Flopsy said above - great job with this pack, and more levels from you would be most welcome!

[Guigui]

About Sour 5 @JawaJuice : I checked and we have the same solution indeed. Though my execution was way harder than yours bc I set the miner at an incorrect height, which made the crowd either walk left or splat when escaping the miner tunnel. Another case of player overcomplicating things for himself.

Though I still wonder if we have intended solution on Sour 5 Through Thick and Thin, I save 1 blocker and you save 1 blocker and 1 jumper.

[JawaJuice]

About Sour 5 @JawaJuice : I checked and we have the same solution indeed. Though my execution was way harder than yours bc I set the miner at an incorrect height, which made the crowd either walk left or splat when escaping the miner tunnel. Another case of player overcomplicating things for himself.

Though I still wonder if we have intended solution on Sour 5 Through Thick and Thin, I save 1 blocker and you save 1 blocker and 1 jumper.

I shall have a look at your replays! Always fun to compare To be honest, I also made the same mistake as you, starting the miner at the wrong height on my first attempt, I guess I just saw the starting point needed to be adjusted but I wasn't too precise about the adjustment; that's where I got lucky! Yeah, I'm not sure either if it's the right solution, though it has to be close if not. Maybe The Tomato Watcher will let us know

EDIT: Hmm, watching your replay of Sour 5, I'm not quite sure why you use the second jumper, I don't think you should need to if the miner tunnel is correct. Actually, watching the bit of Flopsy's LP video above, where he tackles the old version of this level, I think he shows what the intended solution should be

[The Tomato Watcher]

Very few of the updated solutions are intended, but almost none are worth patching out. Sour 2 in particular feels impossible to ever be fully fixed, as it will always be possible for some precise lemming spacing to cheese the level (and might even be everyone's first thing to try no matter what), even if I make the save requirement as strict as possible. Kinda sucks because I thought the intended solution was clever, and if this level were in the original game that precise lemming spacing wouldn't even matter, but it is what it is, and it's not worth touching the level ever again.

Sour 4 is the exception. It might take a while, but I think I can make it work, we'll see.

[JawaJuice]

I'm sorry about that, Tomato Watcher, but it's the nature of the beast unfortunately. I'm currently playtesting some levels for someone else, and they have now released about 7 patches for a single level because I keep accidentally backrouting it. It may be partly my fault for not seeing their intended solution but it is quite a difficult thing to enforce, simply because the possibility space is quite large in this game. Don't lose heart though, I thought your pack was great! It's very enjoyable to play.

[Guigui]

Very few of the updated solutions are intended, but almost none are worth patching out. Sour 2 in particular feels impossible to ever be fully fixed, as it will always be possible for some precise lemming spacing to cheese the level (and might even be everyone's first thing to try no matter what), even if I make the save requirement as strict as possible. Kinda sucks because I thought the intended solution was clever, and if this level were in the original game that precise lemming spacing wouldn't even matter, but it is what it is, and it's not worth touching the level ever again.

Sour 4 is the exception. It might take a while, but I think I can make it work, we'll see.

I am kind of sad to read the bitterness here 

As the average guy who keeps getting his levels backrouted in any possible ways by master solvers of this community, I have not given up yet and patch them over and over again to get closer to my goal. This is tough, especially considering the Save One mechanic in my pack is very prone to being destroyed by single tiny details.

Anyway, I gave another shot at Sour 2 and think I have found the intended solution, or near ? Clever indeed, I understand the frustration of seeing everyone avoiding it. If this is indeed intended, I may even give some ideas to enforce player to go that way :

Spoiler

* Locking Release Rate : RR is too powerful in compression level, dont give this freedom to players.

* Give only one blocker and put a high enough wall somewhere before the traps to allow compression between said wall and blocker only : a single place where compression is possible will enforce intended solution.

* Add more traps to the way : my previous solution that has 1 out of 3 close lemmings get through the 2 traps dies.

[The Tomato Watcher]

My apologies for the bitterness, that was uncalled for I need to learn to step back from the keyboard for a bit when I get frustrated.

I appreciate the kind words from you both. And Guigui, that is indeed essentially the intended solution for Sour 2. Thank you SO MUCH for your suggestions, genuinely. I'll be sure to try them out tomorrow and see what works.

[JawaJuice]

No worries! I understand it can be frustrating to spend time on fixing your levels only to watch people backroute them again - not intentionally, by the way, I want to stress that. I just try to find what seems like the most optimal, logical solution to my mind, which I guess doesn't always necessarily coincide with the author's intent. @Guigui's suggestions for fixing your Sour 2 level sound good, I'd definitely try to implement some of those!

On a more general note, I'd just add (from watching other authors fix my backroutes) that some other good tips for enforcing an intended solution are adding strategically placed steel elements, making terrain elements one-way (left, right, up or down arrows, depending on your purposes), reducing the amount of available terrain in key spots, locking release rate lower and adding more traps (both of which Guigui mentioned). I get that not all authors enjoy fixing backroutes, but if it's seen as part of the level creation process maybe it can be an enjoyable challenge in itself: outwitting the solvers, and making them dance to your tune!

[The Tomato Watcher]

Got around to finishing Version 4

I reverted the (dumb) layout change to Sweet 1/Sour 1 and simply altered the skillset for Sour 1. I also altered the terrain of Sweet 3/Sour 2 and changed the skillset and other properties quite a bit for Sour 2, so hopefully it's a little more backroute-resistant now. I also simply made the backroute the intended solution on Sour 4. I appreciate everyone's kind words about the pack a whole lot, so thank you. 

[kaywhyn]

Hi @The Tomato Watcher,

I have played and solved all of V4 of the pack! Replays attached.

I also recorded an LP of your pack: Kaywhyn's LP of The Tomato Watcher's Sweet 'N' Sour Lemmings

Enjoy!

General Feedback

Sweet 'N' Sour Lemmings is a custom Lemmings level pack by The Tomato Watcher. 12 levels across 2 ranks of 6 levels each, with the rank names being Sweet and Sour. Most of the levels in the Sour rank are repeats of Sweet levels and I must say they are very well done! Even the unique levels are great. I agree with The Tomato Watcher's classification of Easy-Medium for the difficulty of the pack, and I still enjoyed this pack very much even though it is short and on the easier side when it comes to custom Lemmings level packs Well done @The Tomato Watcher, and as some others have said I too hope you make more levels in the future, as you definitely have a lot of potential with the wonderful levels you made for this pack!

Sour 2 I would consider the hardest level of the entire pack. At least in the current V4. Very nice level but this one took me the longest to figure out, believe it or not I'm not sure if it was true in earlier versions of the pack with being one of the hardest, but based on the changelog you posted maybe that wasn't the case. So yes, I would have to say it seems to be quite solid now in being backroute fixed!

Sweet Rank Feedback

Generally characterized as open-ended levels with lenient skillsets and save requirements, though Sweet 2 has the tightest requirement despite a seemingly lenient one

Spoiler

Sweet 1 - Basic brick Nice level to start off the pack with a very nice save all optional challenge!

Sweet 2 - Falling down the stairs You'll be fine as long as you accept the many unfortunate losses here, as there's nothing you can do about the ones that get trapped at the bottom.

Sweet 3 - Long road to nowhere Can be challenging since there's no way to hold back the crowd, but you do have the necessary skills to avoid both of the traps. It's a matter of clearing obstacles as you get to them in order to avoid too many unnecessary losses.

Sweet 4 - Wish upon a Lemming Nice open-ended level with another great save all!

Sweet 5 - Just relax... As long as you know your stoner mechanics and realize you need to build over both the first and third gaps, you'll be fine here. I'm definitely surprised this managed to stump Guigui, but here I acknowledge that it's simply likely due to him not being well-versed with stoners.

Sweet 6 - A Puzzle Adventure Nice level to finish off the rank! I'm not sure if anything's changed here from previous versions, as I did take a quick look at the level after Pieuw posted not being able to solve this one, which I don't think is difficult. Again, it's due to him not being used to the new portal objects that were added in v12.13 NL.   

Sour Rank Feedback

Most levels here are repeats of levels in the Sweet rank, with the levels made harder usually by reducing the skillset and increased save requirements.

Spoiler

Sour 1 - Back again? Excellent level to start the rank! Love that sending two climbers ahead, one to build to the exit for the others and the other to turn around to bash the OWW to free the crowd, with the added twist that you need to time it correctly so that the first climber doesn't get blocked by the builder staircase and therefore will prevent him from coming back to the crowd later on. Well done!

Sour 2 - I need some space... Definitely the hardest level of the pack IMO, as it took me a while to figure out the solution. Another very nice level and one of the best of the pack! Nice use of the blocker to compress the crowd but with the added twist that you must release them before everyone falls out of the entrance so that you can bash through the first diagonal terrain before you lose too many from falling out the wrong way. Well done here as well!

Sour 3 - Chasm Capers Open-ended level and very interesting there's 2 of everything except for builders where you have 60 I'm not sure if the level is supposed to be harder than this or if it's simply anyway you like and that you just need to be quick before you lose too many Lemmings.

Sour 4 - The Ball Pit Excellent level! That jumping the penultimate gap to dig and then bomb in order to have the final builder go all the way through to the exit platform without getting interrupted is quite clever.

Sour 5 - Through thick and thin Another excellent level! Jumping over the gap and exit and mining from above along with bouncing off a blocker to free the crowd from below for the solution is really nice And of course that shimmier, I love the shimmier skill a lot in NL

Sour 6 - The Institution This definitely reminds me of a past contest level of The Tomato Watcher's which was kind of one that failed because it was backroutable IIRC. It seems way more solid here. Nice level to finish off the pack and not too difficult to figure out since you don't have that many options at any moment. Nice added touch with the final builder to the exit and then using the walker skill to turn him around to bash and release the crowd.     

Thank you again for this pack @The Tomato Watcher and again hope you make more levels in the future!