Level Design Contest #31 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)

Started by IchoTolot, December 01, 2024, 05:39:49 PM

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IchoTolot

Yep Arty's solution was a backroute. Guess I have to place that steel block after all...

kaywhyn

@Colorful Arty

That is the intended solution for my R2. Great job and thank you for the compliment! :thumbsup: To answer your question about the music, yes, that is the L2 Outdoor remix track from Strato's Lemmings of Hall Fame which he just released last year in November 2024. Just like LWT, Strato ended up remixing all the L2 tracks, and I think he did a great job with most of them ;) In a way, the timing of the release of the pack was just perfect so that I could use one of the LHOF tracks for this contest :laugh: I definitely wanted to feature one of the tracks from that pack as a preview, just in case the player hasn't had a chance to play through the pack beforehand 8-)

@Icho

R1 - To my surprise, you got the intended solution. Great job! :thumbsup: Your solution isn't the most optimal in terms of being quick or not using too many of the infinite skills, but it's fine :P Because the fiddliness will vary among players, I didn't want to punish players in any way by not providing enough walkers, jumpers, or blockers and therefore just gave an infinite amount of these 3 skills. Even my solution isn't the most optimal with not using too many jumpers/walkers/blockers. I was really aiming for a fun level while there also being a challenging puzzle with the skills that are limited with the new objects. I think I managed to succeed with the result! :thumbsup: Let's say I was inspired by some of the action-based levels from Armani's Lemmings Uncharted and your Double Vortex level from Lemmings United! :)

Spoiler
For example, when releasing the second group of neutrals, I quickly turn around with a walker skill and jump at least once to get ahead of all the neutrals so that I didn't need to use the walkway at the top like you did in order to do that :P Similarly, at the bottom, I just block once in the small area where the neutrals get their athletic skills removed by the skill remover object and then once everyone turns around at the far left when I make him block, I quickly release him, turn him around, and jump several times to get him ahead of the neutrals. Again, your solution is fine, since the fiddliness will vary depending on when and where the player releases the normal Lemming after making him block, for example.

As for how the level resulted, this was inspired by a first rank LemmingBytes level! :thumbsup: Also as I've mentioned in my reply to your video comment on my sneak preview video, I'll happily submit this level for the NL Community Pack after the contest is over! :thumbsup: 

R2 - Intended! :thumbsup: AFAIK, this has never been backrouted, and so for the very first time in any LDC I participated in as a level designer, I finally succeed in releasing a level that hasn't been backrouted even once :laugh: Took me long enough, though! :P

R3 - Different from any of the solutions I had in mind, but you managed to deliver yet another solution which I call acceptable, therefore making at least 5 different ways the level can be solved! Well done! :thumbsup: There is a leftover skill, but well, it is an open-ended level as you might have guessed, and you managed to still need all the other major skills, so it's fine :) At least it's not a solution like Gronkling's that managed to save too many skills for my liking in an earlier version, and while I will nearly accept any solution to the level, I would like all or most of the skills to be accounted for and hence I decided to block off a few routes that used one particular area! :laugh: :P

Spoiler
Apparently that was made possible due to being able to merge the bottom crowds back when there weren't any fire traps in the bottom middle area. I said, nope, that's too many skills saved, I'm going to block that area off. However, the biggest improvement from two solutions I received was increasing the save requirement from 18 to 19, which has resulted in a level that I'm now more satisfied with :thumbsup: I had a suspicion it was possible to just lose 1, I had no idea why I didn't see those ways before! :-[

On the bottom left, you can of course instead build twice to get up that wall where you used a backwards basher to make it a climber friendly wall. The fact I gave nearly enough climbers for one entrance resulted in a solution by Armani where it was a completely new one I hadn't seen before, but it also shows that I frequently overlook this when playing custom levels! :XD: :laugh:

I just barely noticed this, but surely it's pure coincidence that this level turned out exactly like your level The God of Fear and Hunger in terms of what it features: 4-of-everything skillset in classic 8 skills, we both increased the save requirement from 18 to 19 in an update, and 4 entrances and an exit in roughly the corners and roughly middle, respectively! :laugh: Only thing that is different is the RR. Yours is 70 while mine is at the standard 50 for New Formats NL, though my level can easily work with a 70RR. Or any RR for that matter! :P I didn't have your level from several LDC's ago in mind when making my R3, though ;) Like I said, it was pure coincidence my level turned out just like yours in terms of having a lot in common! :thumbsup:

All that being said, it still surprises me people have told me that my R3 is difficult. I wasn't even trying to be hard with my levels this time, having made the observation that my recent levels have been much harder than I anticipated and hence it was intentional on my part to dial back on the difficulty of my own levels ;) My advice is to "think simple," as none of my solutions use anything fancy save for one but even then it's a pretty well-known one among the classic 8 skills.

The track is from L3D, in particular it's one of two tracks (sometimes three, but the third one is a remix of one of the tracks) that plays on computer levels in the game.


I look forward to giving all these levels a go sometime in the upcoming weeks! :thumbsup:             
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0


ericderkovits

#48
@Icho

I noticed in my Rule 2 level in your video the lemmmings were the default ones.

They should be once again using strato's recolored Lemminas (Lixes). That's why I used 1 of Willlem's music tracks.

I uploaded strato's lemmings (recolored Lixes) here for use.

Gronkling

All three solutions are correct for mine  :laugh:
Spoiler
The extra bomber in r3 is just a red herring

Armani

My newest NeoLemmix level pack: Holiday Lemmings 2024 8-)
Xmas themed collaboration pack with Mobiethian :D

My other NeoLemmix level packs(in chronological order):
  Lemmings Uncharted
  Xmas Lemmings 2021
  Lemmings Halloween 2023

IchoTolot

A little reminder that the playing phase will end in roughly a week.  :)

I am also excited to see the how new voting system will turn out in practice!

kaywhyn

Finally managed to solve all the contest levels, as well as resolve Icho's R1 and Gronklings' R2 and R3, and so I wanted to throw in my replays ;) I think they're all intended/acceptable except for Gronkling's R3. Sorry, managed to backroute it again still after more than 15 versions IIRC :( Updates closed a few days ago, so unfortunately they won't be included in the contest collection pack, but you can still post in there if you want.

I must say, these were pretty tough and I even thought there might needed to be some levels left unsolved which would had left me in an awkward situation regarding videos recorded for these. In particular, until recently, I hadn't been able to resolve Icho's R1 and Gronklings' R2 and R3 latest versions from pre-testing. Even moreso as I cut it pretty close here on the playing phase closing. I just been so busy lately with life and even struggled to find a balance with Lemmings and taking breaks here and there after going through some old level packs through CustLemmix to ensure I'll be fresh and ready to go through these contest levels. Nevertheless, I made it :sleep:

Comments on just the new levels and the ones I resolved and not the pre-testing ones I managed to solve with intended/acceptable solutions (Icho's R2 and R3 and Gronkling's R1):

R1 Levels Feedback

Armani's Turn Off the Light Before Bed V1
Wow, this was harder than I thought. For a long time I was a dummy and kept thinking that I needed to somehow stop the Lemming/neutral from getting the slider skill again after pushing the button :XD: I also thought I had the level solved with some builder skills to spare but to my horror the Lemming doesn't glide but slides back down after climbing :( It took me a really long time to see to prepare the zigzag builder bridges on the top right side so that he can have his skills removed and only have the climber and glider in the end. Nice job with this level, and that building over the climber skill adder was a nice touch as well! :thumbsup:

Eric's Which Way? V2
I honestly would prefer original levels rather than remakes of official levels. I've played too many of the latter by this point that I don't think there's a need for another :P Surely you have better ideas than to just remake an official level? Anyway, same complaints as with some of your previous entries in that I really don't know why the swimming section needs to be so long and same thing with the shimmier, though that's just the way the official L1 level is. I also would agree here with Icho in that it's quite confusing with the different color portals. Consider making a style update to match the colors ;) Also was a difficult level with there being so many possibilities and not knowing which would be the right approach. 

Icho's Automaton Maintenance V2
Wow, for a long time I kept being a shimmier/jumper short but only because I fell for your slider skill adder trap! :XD: So that's the "missing" element from my pre-testing solutions. Nice one! :thumbsup: All that being said, this is still a really difficult level IMO, that unless the player realizes the slider skill adder is a trap, he/she won't succeed! ;) 


R2 Levels Feedback

Armani's Caffeine Addiction V1
Wow, this was a great level. I was also a dummy here in that I was wondering how the heck is the level possible because I kept thinking I'm a platformer short. Nope, I forgot the workers are swimmers, therefore no platformer is needed for the tiny water gap on the far right side :laugh: Nice puzzle and I especially love the laser to free the blockers on the platformer bridges :thumbsup:

Eric's Right Left Right V4
Gah, way too repetitive for my liking. As Icho mentioned, 2-3 times per row would had been enough for each of the tricks required. I really don't understand why you persist with level designs like these  with a lot of repetition. That aside, this is a decent level, just takes a really long time for the solution to finish because of how slow the teleporter is and the Lemming count being a bit on the high side for that.

Gronkling's Build Up to Get Down V1
Wow, this is definitely one of the hardest levels of the entire contest, but I honestly felt proud to have finally got it solved even though I was stuck for months. There's so many possibilities but they all fail due to being a skill short or one too many Lemmings dies. It took me a really long time to finally come back to this approach of digging down the right side and then bashing once low enough. It seems that the solution was mostly correct, I just did some hackish things to get it to work and/or some part of it was unintended. Took a while for me to spot the very narrow steel sections on the left side so that the stacker would appear on the other side to help the crowd down safely. There is one part of it that cuts really close to splat height, though that can probably be easily eased and fixed ;) Nice job here! :thumbsup:


R3 Levels Feedback

Armani's Ley Lines V2
Ok, some parts of my solution isn't intended and is probably a bit more complicated than it needs to be, but it does get the job done ;) It doesn't seem to have as much precision as Icho's, but mine still has quite a lot. I initially had the glider get the button in the bottom middle, but I later found out that a non-glider is able to reach it :laugh: In some of my attempts, I came at least a jumper short, but I managed to find a more efficient way in order to have the right amount of jumpers in the end. I'm surprised that you managed to make a level with just jumpers/stoners in the solution! :lem-mindblown: At the same time, I figured out fairly quickly that only the glider can reach the exit but it probably wouldn't be a lot of fun to play and execute. At least for me :laugh: Turned out all right, just the biggest worry was whether I would have enough jumpers and I wouldn't know if I was being wasteful with them despite it being plentiful in supply.   

Colorful Arty's Snarled pipeline V2
Wow, what a nice looking level! :thumbsup: From the skillset alone, I thought this wouldn't be that bad at all. Nope, plenty of my attempts left me at least a skill short. Then again, the sections I had the most trouble on were the far left and the top middle to get to the left side of the level. I later found an approach that works that allowed me to have the right amount of builders for each section. I think my solution can be optimized to save another skill or so, but meh, I'm exhausted from very long solving sessions for the last few nights. Great job with this level Colorful Arty! :thumbsup: 

Crane's Paradox V3
Harder than it looks despite being simple looking in design. The left entrance is no problem with the clustered Lemmings, the right entrance is harder to achieve the compression needed to minimize losses to the trap. I think it was just simply finding the right time to dig. My digger is under the trapdoor, but nice to know that it be placed somewhere else too like in Icho's solution. This level kind of reminds me of that Marble level with the 99RR with a somewhat similar idea of minimizing losses to the trap, especially for challenge purposes of saving as much as possible.

Eric's Come Home Lemmings Part 2 V3
Interesting sequel to the LDC 22 entry but once again still a bit too excessive on the repetition for my liking. You're not the only one who apparently likes the stacker staircase method. Probably could had saved a few more walkers with some careful timing, but meh :P

Gronkling's Decayed Grid V3
As mentioned, I managed to backroute this again, but fortunately it's an easy fix of either padding with steel or extend the OWAs ;) I probably would had spent more time to find the intended solution, but meh, I don't really care anymore, as I've already spent a lot of time on having long solving sessions for the last few days/nights, especially with your R2 and Icho's R1. Hence, I spoiled myself by watching Icho's video, though I might had been able to figure it out just from your spoiler of the third bomber being a red herring. I think I might had even come up with this at some point in time with getting a Lemming past the trap, but I can't remember right now.

I'll get the videos up sometime later today! :)   
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

kaywhyn

All rightie, my levels covering the contest levels are now up :)

Part 1 (NL Rule 1) - https://youtu.be/b9yKCf3WYD0

Part 2 (NL Rule 2) - https://youtu.be/rAJUQa8Kfqc

Part 3 (NL Rule 3) - https://youtu.be/nIuc4mvs8hw

Part 4 (my levels) - https://youtu.be/gZu2Q9U9_8k

Here, I would had used the embedded Youtube feature for the video links, but there are spoilers in the thumbnail :P

I've also attached my intended solutions to my levels :)   
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0