[SUG] Return of the Stoner?

[Crane]

I personally see the Freezer as a stand-in for the Blocker more than the Stoner, although of course it's not totally the same since the ice block can be climbed over.  It could be interesting in puzzles with zombies, since I assume a frozen lemming can't be infected.  The aforementioned Stacker/Stoner trick can be done without frame stepping - it just requires good timing (the moment a lemming turns from hitting a wall and after it has stacked 4 bricks).

There are a few tactical situations where a Stoner is more suitable... besides it taking only one Basher or Miner stroke to clear so other lemmings in the crowd don't turn around while the tunnel is being dug, a Stoner notably cannot be climbed over due to its shape.  It does have some weird interactions with Sliders though if I recall.

It is true otherwise that a Freezer is generally more useful as you can save the lemming.

[WillLem]

I personally see the Freezer as a stand-in for the Blocker more than the Stoner, although of course it's not totally the same since the ice block can be climbed over.

The Freezer is actually non-climbable, as I mentioned in the very very long post which I don't blame you for not reading

It could be interesting in puzzles with zombies, since I assume a frozen lemming can't be infected.

Yes, it's zombie-proof.

I should probably make a post outlining the various possibilities with the Freezer, since it is IMHO a much more versatile skill than the Stoner, and far more than just being "another Blocker or Stacker". Actions speak louder than words, though, so I'll hopefully get something together soon to properly show it off instead of creating another rambling post about it.

[jkapp76]

He might mean the freezer is climbable after lasering it into stairs? I've definitely done this.
... It would be super if we could fencer the freezer and climb it. This would totally end any
Complaint about the stacker/stoner no longer working. And it would be less fiddly. The laserer
Works well but blasts a hole through the whole level. The fencer/freezer would probably be
Faster than using the stacker with the stoner.

[WillLem]

It would be super if we could fencer the freezer and climb it

Do you mean cancel the fencer to make a "stair"? If so, then how is that any better than cancelling a laserer? And, again - I'd rather discourage that sort of fiddliness anyway.

If you didn't mean that, could you elaborate on what you mean?

[jkapp76]

I do NOT mean cancel a laserer or fencer to make an actual staircase. This would indeed be fiddly.

Here's what I mean:
Currently you can laser a freezer to create a step that is climbable. If you're close enough you will even free the lemming.
However, if you use a fencer on a freezer, even though it basically does the same thing as a laserer, you can't climb it.

The laserer often blasts too far past the freezer to be good. A fencer could potentially be the best option, AND totally remove
any argument for the stoner/stacker interaction as this would be as good, easier, less fiddly and faster than that.

[WillLem]

However, if you use a fencer on a freezer, even though it basically does the same thing as a laserer, you can't climb it.

I'm guessing you don't mean this?

[jkapp76]

First image is the Laserer, which is equal to the stoner/stacker step.

Second image is the Fencer, which is a bump in the road.

Also, in the fencer pic the lemmings are not safe from the trap.

[WillLem]

I'm still not sure what you mean by "step", "climbable" and "can't climb it"... and, other than the angle of the tunnel, how is one skill more favourable than the other for the scenario in the screenshots?

In the screenshots you posted, I'd say... just use the laserer, then. But, I'm guessing there is more nuance that I'm not quite understanding here...

[jkapp76]

I was replying to what Crane said mostly. You can't make a step with the stoner/stacker interaction. He said you can climb the freezer.

Then you said you can't climb a freezer.

Then, I said he probably meant you can climb a freezer if its lasered, but this often lasers through too much level to be as good. And I went on with how the stoner/stacker interaction could be eliminated perfectly if the fencer cut the ice the same as a laserer. (Lots of paraphrasing)

I suppose you can also climb the ice remains after fencing it (as in my 2nd pic), it's just not very high, you have the debris in the way, and it doesn't replace the stoner/stacker interaction this way. which was the original subject.

[jkapp76]

Here's a similar one-way step made with a jumper/bomber interaction...
I couldn't do this in the same spot near the top of the level. Nowhere to jump from. This is harder to master, but makes a good step if you have the space to do it.

[jkapp76]

And here is yet another one-way step made with two freezers and a fencer...

[WillLem]

The aforementioned Stacker/Stoner trick can be done without frame stepping - it just requires good timing

Fair enough

And here is yet another one-way step made with two freezers and a fencer...

OK, so you're looking for a way to make a one-way step, I see. Using 2 Freezers instead seems to work nicely, as does using a Jumper>Bomber combo (I tried this in real time and it can be done, with a bit of practice).

The Laserer is the cleanest way to do it, but I suppose it does mean the level designer may need to place steel in the laser's path if they don't want other parts of the level to be destroyed. Either that or add a cancelling skill, which is also not ideal.

The angle of the Fencer tunnel is meant to be that of a Miner and a Builder bridge, so that these skills are compatible. I wouldn't really wish to change this without good reason. In fact, there has been talk of making the Fencer tunnel wider to allow it to be Shimmyable, and this is more likely to happen than an angle change. This would make the "one-way step" even lower.

So, maybe the most ideal variant of this particular interaction (i.e. Stacker>Stoner) is something we lose by not having the Stoner. This, along with the spooky aesthetic that plays nicely into zombie levels, is a somewhat convincing case for bringing the skill back. The reasons against doing so (it's fiddly, it bloats the skillset to 25, it costs a lem, the Freezer is a more evolved variation of the same idea, etc) still seem to outweigh it, though.

Also, even if the Stoner is brought back at some point in the future, I'd like to see how we manage without it for at least some time. SuperLemmix offers 3 new skills plus a new state (the Dangler), new talismans (Kill All Zombies, Play in Classic Mode, Play Without Pressing Pause) and a number of physics changes (wall-bouncing Jumpers, direct drop, one-way-field sides) that we ought to explore before rushing to bring culled stuff back.

[jkapp76]

I think we've found quite a few ways to duplicate this now. And I'm adding a couple more here.
The grenader leaves almost nothing left.
I wouldn't recommend changing the fencer angle. (I like making the fenced area shimmyable though)