Lemforum outtakes/replacements, 0.10.x

[mobius]

Edit Simon: I've split outtakes/replacements off the lemforum backroute fixes.


thinking/rethinking what levels of mine I'm not pleased with. I think these are my top contenders:

Babylon Fading
6 Gaps 5 Builders
Passing Engagement
---
The Last Laugh
Erbalunga
The Great Escape

Here are four new (old) levels for consideration/testing. I have a couple more I want to make before I'm done.

Niche by Yawg:
has many solutions. All exits might be reachable, only one I have not reached is the bottom left. but none should be trivial.
When putting together Revenge of the Lemmings I removed some of the exits but I think that was a mistake, imo it's pretty interesting with so many solutions. Another one from Yawg's excellent pack 6, where Duality came from.

Try Climbing That! by Shvegait.
An old level that I only recently solved and added to the update to Revenge of the Lemmings. This could possibly work in favor of the Gr8 Escape; which is also a builder exercise but this one's bit better imho, or maybe it's not. (Or any other level, doesn't matter that much to me which this replaces) It also got favorable comments from Armani and Turrican.

Leave No Lix Behind, by Ben Bryant
Some of Ben's levels are already in the pack; he was an excellent designer for Cheapo back in the day, made some unique levels. This is one of my favorites.

Locked and Loaded by Ben Bryant
This is my personal favorite of his and imo his hardest level. At least it took me the longest to solve. Fortunately, while lack of arrows is annoying the fling bombers may actually easily remove one of the annoying backroutes. I'd highly recommend this one. Was very satisfying to solve.

[Proxima]

I'm on board with removing "Babylon Fading" and "Erbalunga" in favour of "Leave No Lix Behind" and "Locked and Loaded". (However, this isn't a definite decision as yet; we need to decide on ordering, and we need to test the new levels for backroutes.)

However, I am against doing any more tinkering with the composition at this stage. The pack has been stable for years, and all the levels we had were chosen for inclusion because they are good levels. Sure, there are other good levels out there, but we can't keep on tinkering for ever.

[mobius]

I'm on board with removing "Babylon Fading" and "Erbalunga" in favour of "Leave No Lix Behind" and "Locked and Loaded". (However, this isn't a definite decision as yet; we need to decide on ordering, and we need to test the new levels for backroutes.)

However, I am against doing any more tinkering with the composition at this stage. The pack has been stable for years, and all the levels we had were chosen for inclusion because they are good levels. Sure, there are other good levels out there, but we can't keep on tinkering for ever.

Why not? You can call a project "finished" and then still alter it or update it later. If you're not happy with something the way it is, you want to change it. And as I said before (and actually years before but my posts were met with the same response or ignored.) I'm not happy with a number of the levels I made at this time, mainly because I was pretty new to making custom levels at the time.

When I did Revenge of the Lemmings, I let the people who were active and had the ability to decide what should be done with their levels; do that, even if it wasn't the "popular opinion". That seemed fair to me. Yet you've consistently been against me making decisions about my own levels in this pack.

I don't frankly care all that much whether everyone decides to make these changes or not, its the principle. I'm tired of dealing with this and that's really why I took such a hiatus from Lix in the first place.

[Simon]

Retracting your own levels should always be possible.

Reason: Designers improve their average quality by cutting fluff. If we don't allow for that, we'll put designers at risk of submitting things. It's especially important in lemforum because we advertize that to newcomers, to play first. Designers want to have their best work showcased.

The alternative is to keep lemforum as it is, but eventually advertize something else as the first pack. Lix itself will change over the years, and it will not be finished anytime soon. It's only appropriate that Lix shows the best slice of quality that we can muster at any given time.

-- Simon

[Proxima]

I'm sorry if my post was out of line. I should have identified this as a point of disagreement and invited mobius into an open discussion so that we could help each other understand where we are both coming from.

I never intended to make you feel you were unwelcome or had to take a break. Maybe it would have been better if you'd spoken up at the time about the way you felt, and we could have tried to come to a compromise. I don't think I am an unreasonable person.

Let me briefly state my own point of view. I feel it's important to recognise that when a pack has been out for years, each level represents a lot of work, not just on the part of the original designer (and remaker, if any) but also on the part of those who have tested it, weeded out backroutes, and gradually improved it. Division of Labour comes to mind, since it's one that you mentioned in your post. This is now a really good level that earns its place in the last rank of the pack, because of the original design by Pieuw, mobius's remake, the time and effort Simon put into testing it, and my own contributions in fixing backroutes. It doesn't sit right with me that any one of us should have the right to override the others and throw all that away. In the original formation of a pack, sure, I would accept that the designer has the right of absolute veto if they don't want a particular one of their own levels included. When a pack has been stable for a long time, I don't think that's how things should be done.

Still, I respect that Lix is Simon's project, and he decides how it will work. I am just grateful that I was able to be part of it.

I would like to be removed from my positions as the pack maintainer and board moderator.

[mobius]

I'm sorry if my post was out of line. I should have identified this as a point of disagreement and invited mobius into an open discussion so that we could help each other understand where we are both coming from.

I never intended to make you feel you were unwelcome or had to take a break. Maybe it would have been better if you'd spoken up at the time about the way you felt, and we could have tried to come to a compromise. I don't think I am an unreasonable person.

Let me briefly state my own point of view. I feel it's important to recognise that when a pack has been out for years, each level represents a lot of work, not just on the part of the original designer (and remaker, if any) but also on the part of those who have tested it, weeded out backroutes, and gradually improved it. Division of Labour comes to mind, since it's one that you mentioned in your post. This is now a really good level that earns its place in the last rank of the pack, because of the original design by Pieuw, mobius's remake, the time and effort Simon put into testing it, and my own contributions in fixing backroutes. It doesn't sit right with me that any one of us should have the right to override the others and throw all that away. In the original formation of a pack, sure, I would accept that the designer has the right of absolute veto if they don't want a particular one of their own levels included. When a pack has been stable for a long time, I don't think that's how things should be done.

Still, I respect that Lix is Simon's project, and he decides how it will work. I am just grateful that I was able to be part of it.

I would like to be removed from my positions as the pack maintainer and board moderator.

Just to be clear; I'm not asking that my personal or any one's decision can veto everyone else's. Again I'm only here to make suggestions. I won't be upset if everyone disagrees with me. Division of Labor and all of the others aren't bad levels necessarily. And if everyone wants to keep them, that's fine. You Simon and maybe others have mentioned that one for example so; okay, it can be kept that's fine with me. The thing I was mainly annoyed at was the fact that some issues, like with "The Last Laugh" (another level of Pieuw's which was altered significantly) I'm fairly sure I brought up quite a long time ago; *before the pack was stable*, before it was even finished, but my comments went ignored. So the argument of time and effort doesn't really hold for that one in particular. I'm pretty sure there are others too but I can't remember which, and it doesn't matter that much at this point.

I also realize adding anything new requires a lot of work; testing and what-not; that's precisely why I'm only suggesting a handful; around 5 total let's say, certainty no more than 10 to add and I'm only picking levels which I've already tested to some degree, by myself and others and levels I know fairly well by now. Obviously they still should be tested, but at least it's not like I'm making brand new levels that could have enormous issues requiring lots of time and effort. As I also have more time atm than I did for awhile I can help a bit myself in testing.

Anyways; to reiterate; these are the levels of my own (or own remaking) that I like the least, and feel aren't really "up to par"
Babylon Fading --
6 Gaps 5 Builders --
The Last Laugh

The others like Passing Engagement; are okay but I felt kind of meh, and maybe suitable for a replacement. But I'll accept if others like it better. I'll finish making the few I want to make upload them to give people an idea of what they're like. I like the idea of showcasing levels that are as unique and satisfying as possible. And there are plenty to choose from.

[Proxima]

The thing I was mainly annoyed at was the fact that some issues, like with "The Last Laugh" (another level of Pieuw's which was altered significantly) I'm fairly sure I brought up quite a long time ago; *before the pack was stable*, before it was even finished, but my comments went ignored. So the argument of time and effort doesn't really hold for that one in particular.

I don't remember exactly what was said back then, but it seems likely that there was a similar problem with a lack of communication, so I apologise for that. You are a valued contributor as well as a good friend, if it's okay for me to say so, and I never wanted to hurt you or make you feel you were being ignored.

Regarding "The Last Laugh"... going into a spoiler tag since I don't know whether Simon has solved it:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I don't know what the original version of the level was like, but considering the Lix version on its own merits: the trick of using the jumper-climber to keep a lix busy is a nice linchpin that doesn't appear elsewhere, and is very well-hidden on this level, making it satisfying to solve. I would definitely argue for keeping it even if this solution is nothing like what was originally intended.

And of course, I'll be happy to look at and give feedback on any more levels you post, even though it's not my place any more to make the final decisions. I was really happy that you chose to remake "Leave No Lix Behind", which is an absolutely beautiful level ... and I don't think I have ever solved "Locked and Loaded", so I'll have to give that one a try as soon as I have a free evening!

And I'm sure that if you give us some decent levels, we can make room by throwing out some of my lesser works like "Dr Strangelix" and "I'm Gonna Make You Mine".

[Simon]

When a pack has been stable for a long time, I don't think that's how things should be done.

Still, I respect that Lix is Simon's project, and he decides how it will work. I am just grateful that I was able to be part of it.

I would like to be removed from my positions as the pack maintainer and board moderator.

Hmm, that's a surprising turn of events. You asked about supporting neutrals in August 2022, you sounded like would be open to a few entirely new levels. That's why I encouraged mobius to post his long-standing ideas about the few replacings.

Retracting is a last resort. I wouldn't ditch Division of Labor either. The work and backroute fixing is a contribution of its own. Happy that mobius is fine with keeping it, but in a pinch, mobius and us together could have decided to rename/restyle/reattribute.

Let's all have a good night's sleep over it.

If you still wish to lay down maintainership in a few days, I'll remove you from the moderators.

-- Simon

[mobius]

Regarding "The Last Laugh"... going into a spoiler tag since I don't know whether Simon has solved it:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I don't know what the original version of the level was like, but considering the Lix version on its own merits: the trick of using the jumper-climber to keep a lix busy is a nice linchpin that doesn't appear elsewhere, and is very well-hidden on this level, making it satisfying to solve. I would definitely argue for keeping it even if this solution is nothing like what was originally intended.

fair enough. If people really like this level that much, then leave it as is. I am a bit doubtful of this; Simon played the level on stream the other day

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[and was on totally the wrong track, but seemed confident he could make it work; it was very fiddly, I don't like those kind of things in my levels.

but that may change when he solves it. IDK. I could make some alterations I suppose if that was appropriate but I don't feel like doing that in this case. Let's get some more input before making a final decision. I'll probably end up not doing anything with the level then.

-----------

Another Funeral: the title is in reference to at least two old Lemming levels [by Martin Z and Fleech, and possibly more] with the title of "Four Lemmings and a Funeral with 4 lems, save 3 each]. I wonder if most people playing that get this reference?

The intelligent thing to do (which I will now do) is to take a close look at all the feedback threads that have accumulated over the past few years and then respond with better comments. I'm also against levels that are very finicky (whether intentional or not), so that's another reason to remove for me.

I'll just make these levels and upload them here and let people comment on them and see what others think.

My comments stand on Babylon Fading and 6 Gaps.., and the others.
6 Gaps: pretty boring even for a beginner level imo. Babylon: kind of similar to Nortaneous's level [Lixlada?]. I've abandoned these levels.

to repeat; The Gr8 Escape; I think 'Try Climbing that' (attached in a post below) might make a better replacement here, they are similar in nature but the latter is more interesting (and harder) imo.

I'll upload my replays for all of these as well [attached below]. Repeating myself again but all of the levels I'm picking here are ones that imo went above and beyond to begin with, and that's partly why I even considered this in the first place.

I agree on Leave no Lix behind; as with most of his levels there was a clever solution hidden but this one had much easier solutions, I made one small change which I can't remember exactly (I was going by my NL version when I redid it), reduced one skill or something like that to enforce this elegant solution.

Locked and Loaded; my solution should theoretically work on Cheapo but I never actually pulled it off, because good old Cheapo, but there were backroutes I removed by removing some decorative terrain. This honestly quickly became one of my favorite levels ever. Maybe I'm weird and its not that great. At least Armani seemed to like it as well. [he helped me backroute fix]

my replay for "Niche" is one of 3 that I have. IMO this makes a great level that is a bit unique and looks impossible at first (especially to a newcomer) but turns out to have a ton of leeway and several solutions but nothing trivial. [Some solutions may be easier than others and I'll gladly adjust the level based on feedback, or backroutes of course]. I don't recall offhand that there's another level in the pack quite like this.... maybe there is??

-------
 A while back I make a post saying I was going to quit working on this project forever or something like that, I guess at the time I figured my interest would never return. Well at least now I have some spare time to do a little bit, and help however I can. I can test stuff for others if anyone would like

tiny point: I'd like to have at least one level in this new Chicago style; maybe I'll redo one of my own or do a new one in it?

[Proxima]

my replay for "Niche" is one of 3 that I have. IMO this makes a great level that is a bit unique and looks impossible at first (especially to a newcomer) but turns out to have a ton of leeway and several solutions but nothing trivial. [Some solutions may be easier than others and I'll gladly adjust the level based on feedback, or backroutes of course]. I don't recall offhand that there's another level in the pack quite like this.... maybe there is??

If by "like this" you mean multiple exits and having to work out which one is reachable, there's "Bet You Can't Save Just One" and "Buridan's Lix".

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

"Bet You Can't Save Just One" has a single intended solution, but there are (known and accepted) multiple solutions, including one that reaches a different exit. "Buridan's Lix" is intentionally built around both exits being reachable.

In the spirit of cooperation, I looked through the pack to compile a shortlist of levels I feel we could most easily get rid of, particularly from the middle ranks:

C4 "Once you pop, you can't stop" -- timed bomber level that doesn't really pull its weight with untimed
C11 "Babylon Fading" -- I agree with mobius; the route is obvious and the main challenge is multitasking, which is more annoying than hard with framestepping features
C39 "Dr Strangelix" -- same as "Once you pop"
D19 "This is too much stepping stones" -- ceiling route level where the route is obvious and the only difficulty is execution
D31 "I'm Gonna Make You Mine" -- builderfest where the only slight interest is the trick of using two parallel platformers to allow builders to turn around; some people miss this trick, which must make the level even more annoying

[mobius]

two options for replacing "6 gaps, 5 builders". Either is fine imo, I tried to think of levels of a similar difficulty. They're both fairly easy, I'll upload a replay later if anyone wants.


Edit Simon: Moved the remaining portion of this post into lemforum backroutes in 0.10.x.

[Simon]

Here, Lovely = L, Quirky = Q, Cunning = C, Daunting = D, Vicious = V, Hopeless = H. To remove means to move it to single/misc/lemforum-outtakes. It will still ship with the main Lix download.

Reordering according to difficulty:

⬈ L25 Ferry Tale: Uprank at least to Quirky. This leaves an open slot in Lovely.
⬂ C07 Labyrinth of Persia: Slight downrank is okay. But looks so intimidating.
⬈ C08 Snow Jump: Uprank to late Cunning? Ramond had trouble.
⬈ C24 Watch Ye Step: I feel it's okay, but mobius and Ramond suggest to uprank.
⬈ C35 Another Funeral: Uprank to early-mid Vicious.
⬈ D17 Derailed Level: Uprank to late Vicious or early Hopeless.
⬈ D30 Buy One Get One Free Part 2: Uprank to Vicious.
⬂ V38 3.1.1.1: Downrank into Daunting

mobius proposes to remove:

× Q06 6 Gaps: Remove
× C11 Babylon Fading: Remove
× C18 Erbalunga: Remove, although I like it; mobius, can I talk you out of it?
× D32 Passing Engagement: Remove, although I'd be okay with keeping it?

In addition, Proxima suggests to remove:

× C04 Once You Pop, You Can't Stop: Remove
× C39 Dr Strangelix: Remove
× D19 This is too much stepping stones: Remove, but I'd like to ask Steve
× D31 I'm Gonna Make You Mine: Remove, although this is the strongest of these four

Hmm, 8 candidates for removal, that's a lot. Are we really sure that we want to cut this much? I have a soft spot for Erbalunga, and I also like Passing Engagement enough to keep it purely out of tradition.

Too Much Stepping Stones is Steve's level. It looks bland and I agree that it's mostly execution, but it is still unique, and I'd ask Steve first how he thinks about it. If he wants to keep it, we already have several other candidates for removal.

Candidates to include in lemforum: Try Climbing That, Locked and Loaded, Leave No Lix Behind, Niche, Private Room, Break. Out of these, Leave No Lix Behind is the strongest contender, all of Proxima, geoo, mobius, and I have agreed.

-- Simon

[mobius]

Im fine with keeping Erbalunga and passing engagement. Though i will say Ramond seemed to find Erbalunga rather easy and maybe ill make one level by Pieuw which you can look at ans see id you think its better. If i feel lile it....

I agree too much stepping stones is kind of unique, i dont think its ntoo bad.

Ill have to look at thenothers im not real familiar with them

[Proxima]

I'll look through the proposals a bit at a time, so any that I don't mention, I just haven't got round to yet

I agree that Ferry Tale feels more like a Quirky level, but which to downrank in its place? Follow the Yellow Brick Road or 6 Gaps are possibilities, if we end up keeping them. Ramen Masterchef? This one is pretty much a tutorial for the framestepping tools and trivial once you understand them.

Switch Labyrinth of Persia with The Pit. The latter has an obvious main route but it's tricky to work out how to save the lix from the pit and the save requirement is much tighter than it looks at first, requiring some precise assignments.

Agree with moving Snowjump later but I haven't found a good candidate for switching, I'll keep thinking about this.

Definitely keep Passing Engagement, it's a lovely misdirection puzzle with a trick that is very hard to spot. Erbalunga is also a nice resource management puzzle where you think you have solved it and then executing the solution leaves you surprisingly a skill short. The main consideration against Erbalunga is that the terrain is unnecessarily large for the number of skill assignments, but that's maybe okay.

[mobius]

Well, first of all I didn't expect to see this much resistance to removing levels; I don't care that much.  If people are happy with the pack the way it is then it can stay the way it is.

These are the only candidates I suggest for removal/replacement:

× Q06 6 Gaps
× C11 Babylon Fading
× Hopeless 16 - Stuff in the way: based on feedback that it relies on too much precision. [more comments below or in the other thread]

I'm more concerned now with fixing my levels and I'll post about that in the other thread.

If anybody wants/looks for levels for replacement I have plenty of candidates you can ask; but otherwise I'm not going to concern myself with removing any more.