Author Topic: Level Design Contest #24 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)  (Read 6714 times)

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Online kaywhyn

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Re: Level Design Contest #24 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #30 on: November 11, 2021, 11:25:50 AM »
@Armani

R2 - Definitely closer than the previous solution but still a backroute as you correctly guessed. It still avoided some elements that I wanted to enforce, so for V4 I added OWAs, moved some terrain near the exit, as well as added some in that area, moved a button, and -1 blocker and +1 basher. This might even force the player better in the correct direction of the solution, but let's see. In a way, I'm not confident that the intended solution is completely forced now, but even if it isn't my hope is that at least it's still yet closer than all previous solutions you sent me :P

R3 - I almost wanted to say your solution is acceptable, but for V3 I decided to add just slightly more terrain on either side of the exit, and as a result I removed the 10 tons traps on either side of it. It's really just to force players to use more skills. Also, thanks for the feedback on the skillset, and as a result I took your suggestion and reduced the skillset to 4-of-everything. It should be more challenging this way now while still being open-ended, just more restrictive and not allowing too much degrees of freedom. Of course, I made sure the level's still possible with the new reduced skillset, and it is, as I have a new replay proof, since I needed to tweak my previous one a bit due to the changes I made. Heck, V2 and earlier might even be possible with 3-of-everything, but I haven't tried, and I don't want it to be super tight, and so I'll just settle with the 4-of-everything skillset.

In any case, your solution is way more efficient than mine, and if I accept yours for V3, then I'll just say any other future solutions from everyone else at this point is acceptable for me.

Thanks again for resolving my levels and helping me to improve them! :) I can tell you're enjoying them just as much as the other entries in this contest. Yes, I might not have quite reached Icho, Nepster, or Armani difficulty in my levels, but I'm slowly getting there... I think :laugh:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline Armani

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Re: Level Design Contest #24 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #31 on: November 13, 2021, 05:20:03 AM »
resolved updated levels.
EMERGECY EVACUATION (click to show/hide)
Armani's Blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4994.0

My NL level pack:
  Lemmings Uncharted[Medium~Extreme]: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5702
  Xmas Lemmings 2021[Easy~Very Hard]: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5876.0

Online kaywhyn

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Re: Level Design Contest #24 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #32 on: November 13, 2021, 09:19:21 AM »
@Armani

R2 - Yup, still not intended, and this one seemed to have gotten much further than the previous solutions. For V5, I added some more terrain, shifted some terrain above the exit, shifted the exit and the two grass vine traps near it, added some vine traps, and moved the 4 cloner pickups to a different location. I really had to think long and hard on how to fix it up. I have to suspect that the level has become much harder as a result, but at the same time it might even force or at least lead more in the correction direction of the intended solution :P

R3 - Although your new solution seems somewhat more efficient than your previous one, I will say it's now acceptable for my liking. For maybe some others, they might not be as efficient in the skill usages, but as I mentioned previously I don't want the skillset to be even tighter than the new modified skillset in V3. Even with the skillset, the level is still open-ended while not allowing as much degrees of freedom that the 5-of-everything skillset did. At the same time, I haven't checked to see if the level is possible with 3-of-everything, but even if it is I don't want the skillset to be too tight. 4-of-everything feels just perfect per your feedback ;)

Thus, only my R2 needs resolving on your end :)
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline ∫tan x dx

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Re: Level Design Contest #24 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #33 on: November 13, 2021, 01:18:06 PM »
@Armani Definitely all backroutes :P Check the other thread for an update!

Online kaywhyn

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Re: Level Design Contest #24 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #34 on: November 14, 2021, 07:39:44 AM »
I've started an LP of some of these contest levels, and I was able to solve all the R1's, although one needed a second video. Here are my replays for the R1 levels, minus the replay for Icho's level and mine, as I had the honor of pre-testing his levels once again. I will attach solutions to Icho's levels and to all of my levels later on once I deem solutions to each of them acceptable.

I for sure backrouted Armani's level, and possibly KingShadow3's as well, although perhaps it's still acceptable despite the leftover skill? The Tomato Watcher's R1 should be intended.

LP Video Links:

Rule 1 Part 1:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5_EEFFxTAs

Rule 1 Part 2:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9eFf7xJTmw


Armani's Lemmings in a Rave V1 (click to show/hide)

KingShadow3's OttoLicho's Sprudel Squires V1:

Difficult one but quite a nice one! I really like what you did with the title, where the first word is an anagram of IchoTolot. So, I'm wondering if this level is a tribute to one of his levels from the United pack.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The Tomato Watcher's And Now, The Incredible Shimmier V2:

Nice level. Easiest R1 level IMO.


I will post the rest of my replays and LP videos once I get all the other levels solved. So far, I've had an attempt at two R2 levels and wasn't able to solve either one within the time I spent recording, so it looks like the R2's will need an extra solving session in general.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline Armani

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Re: Level Design Contest #24 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #35 on: November 14, 2021, 01:33:14 PM »
Resolved updated 2 levels 8-) : Guide to Clone Survival in the Jungle / EMERGENCY EVACUATION

I attached two replays for both respectively. Unfortunately all 4 seem to be backroutes.
Armani's Blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4994.0

My NL level pack:
  Lemmings Uncharted[Medium~Extreme]: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5702
  Xmas Lemmings 2021[Easy~Very Hard]: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5876.0

Offline ∫tan x dx

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Re: Level Design Contest #24 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #36 on: November 14, 2021, 02:28:29 PM »
@Armani Those are both backroutes, but you're getting very close! :thumbsup:

Offline Kingshadow3

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Re: Level Design Contest #24 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #37 on: November 14, 2021, 08:13:52 PM »
@kaywhyn
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Anyway, your solution is a backroute Armani didn't find. I've uploaded my V2 in the update topic.

Online kaywhyn

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Re: Level Design Contest #24 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #38 on: November 14, 2021, 09:46:01 PM »
@Armani

Ah, this is starting to feel like LDC #22 all over again, where you kept backrouting my R3, but this time it's for my R2 :( Both of your solutions are backroutes, although your second solution is closer than your first one in many ways, but overall there's still some things either solutions miss. In particular, there are 3 tricks that I haven't seen in any of your solutions that you keep avoiding! I think I know how KingShadow3 feels now with your uncanny ability to practically backroute anything any of us throw at you :devil: And I thought I was good at backrouting :crylaugh:

For V6, more shifting of terrain and more terrain added, and added another grass vine trap. For this, I pretty much took each of your solutions one at a time and tried to block out each one. However, your first solution is, once again, due to a terrain misplacement error on my part, as well as how I keep forgetting to test about terrain being passable or not without any additional skills needed. I think this will finally be enough, but let's see.

@KingShadow3

Ah, good to know! :) Backroute, huh? I'm guessing I'm not too far off. 
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline Armani

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Re: Level Design Contest #24 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #39 on: November 15, 2021, 03:02:56 PM »
Some more replays to Guide to Clone Survival in the Jungle / EMERGENCY EVACUATION

The two solutions to EMERGENCY EVACUATION are almost unchanged from yesterday, basically same but with better timings.
Armani's Blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4994.0

My NL level pack:
  Lemmings Uncharted[Medium~Extreme]: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5702
  Xmas Lemmings 2021[Easy~Very Hard]: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5876.0

Offline ∫tan x dx

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Re: Level Design Contest #24 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #40 on: November 15, 2021, 03:40:42 PM »
@Armani More backroutes, but I think the latest changes might force your hand! :evil:

Online kaywhyn

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Re: Level Design Contest #24 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #41 on: November 16, 2021, 07:00:23 AM »
@Armani

All three solutions to my R2 are bad backroutes in some way :XD: However, I am happy to see that another one of my tricks I intended has been used or at least a very close form of it in the solutions. However, there's still two others that aren't being used. For V7, I added another button and a vine grass trap which should definitely 100% enforce it now (never thought it would be so hard to enforce here!), and as a result it might even completely enforce the other trick I intended in another part of the level as well, added some OWAs, and some more terrain. Unfortunately, I think these fixes have resulted in more precision in the intended solution than I originally wanted, but well, sometimes that's the way it is :P Once again, I have to suspect that all these changes have clearly made this one one of my hardest levels in this contest :laugh:

Thank you so much for your patience and persistence in resolving each new version of my R2, even if I've been slowly getting flustered in trying to think of fixes to implement, as I'm definitely starting to see that sometimes it's just as much work to backroute fix than it is to solve the levels. Even then, I'm still more of a level solver than a level maker ;P   
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline Armani

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Re: Level Design Contest #24 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #42 on: November 17, 2021, 05:54:25 AM »
Some more replays to Guide to Clone Survival in the Jungle / EMERGENCY EVACUATION

EMERGENCY EVACUATION (click to show/hide)
Armani's Blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4994.0

My NL level pack:
  Lemmings Uncharted[Medium~Extreme]: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5702
  Xmas Lemmings 2021[Easy~Very Hard]: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5876.0

Online kaywhyn

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Re: Level Design Contest #24 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #43 on: November 17, 2021, 07:07:29 AM »
@Armani

Your second solution is the closest to the intended solution that I've gotten from you thus far, but unfortunately still a backroute :( For V8, I removed and shifted some terrain, as well as extended some OWAs and added up OWAs close to it. I'm really praying that this is hopefully the last time I need to update this level, but I'm not confident about that.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I think you're right about it being harder and more work to backroute proof a very difficult level. As strange as it might sound, sometimes one can spend far longer fixing up a level than the time spent solving it. In the worst case scenario, it's not possible to enforce the intended solution and hence it's either discard and uses the backrouted part in the solution, accept the alternative, or something else. I think I've now reached the same number of patches for my R2 as my R3 from LDC #22 :crylaugh:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline ∫tan x dx

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Re: Level Design Contest #24 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #44 on: November 17, 2021, 06:05:22 PM »
@Armani Regarding your second solution:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)