Wibble's thoughts on Lix Lemforum levels

[Wibble]

Cornerstone - Really liked the design of this, made me feel dumb for not getting thow to do it at first then smart when I worked it out! I think the hallmark of a good level in general is that it should either look really simple and actually be tough, or look horrible until you see something to simplify it. This fulfills the first of the criteria very nicely.

Repeating Patterns - As a maths teacher I approve of the fractal. Nice to see a level where you need to carefully think about where you use your turners.

The Crimson Room - Looks easier than it is I think - seeing where to save on skills to have enough I found quite tough. This was one of the later levels I completed. 

Narbacular Drop -

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Solving Lixes In Motion helped with this one as it gave me the idea of having a lix fall through before the digger finished to complete the excavations to the left - plus having the digger face the other way to the rest of the lix for the bridge. I originally was trying to turn a lix round by mining the metal ,then on 1 attempt saw 2 had turned round so the miner was unnecessary.

Duality - I don't know if my solution is intended but can't see another

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

That "bridge" only just reaches

BOGOF part 2 - Nice puzzle, I like that the differences to BOGOF 1 in skills are subtle yet make for such a different solution.

[Wibble]

I'm Gonna Make You Mine - From the replay I think I need at least 2 more miners. Or there is some technique that I am missing that saves skills. I don't see how to improve there. 

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I don't know if there is some way to avoid using them on the lower platform?

Passing Engagement - Feels like this should be an easy level with only 4 skills. I think 1 of my assumptions in the spoiled text must be incorrect but don't know which one.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

1. The platform has to be used to fill the gap, and is not wide enough to fill a gap at any other place.
2. The platformer will not be able to turn around on completion of their job.
3. If a blocker is used before the first drop, then any lix that turn on meeting her changing their direction from right to left will be unable to turn back again, so that option is out.
4. If a blocker is used before the first drop, then any lix that turn on meeting her changing their direction from left to right will be OK. I can also use a miner on the ridge before the first drop to keep all lix trapped before the platform is complete. However, I then have a single basher to undermine the blocker, and if successful no way to turn the basher round and save them.
5. If a blocker is used after the first drop then undermined, there is still no way to turn the basher/miner round or make them stop. I thought of trying to have the basher undermine the blocker then run out of land to bash but that can only work on the flattish ground towards the start of the level.

Hints for either or both of these levels would be appreciated, though I have a feeling the first one is more a case of just optimising the plan I already have more.

The Ring of Fnargl - The polar opposite of Passing Engagement, a level that looks horrific yet was completed first attempt. I like the overall appearance of this one.

Hellfire - I liked this level, a nice puzzle requiring you to think about how to save on skills.

Gomen Ne Sunao Ja Nakute - Not sure if my method is the only one?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Those bridges only just fit again, but when I tried the route through 4 pillars then 2 above I found myself a bridge short

Rumble to the Bottom - As with the level above, feels like my solution may not be the only one?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Having spare skills always makes me wonder. Also felt a little more conventional than a lot of the other levels, having access to blockers to easily stop the crowd feels almost like cheating compared to the methods needed in some other levels

[Wibble]

To Destroy is to Construct - I liked this level, took a while to figure out

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Mainly as I was trying to work out how to get all lix to the part of the level above then dig down

Two For His Heels - My best attempt is attached. I can see how to get an extra turner if that helps, but I am either a digger or miner short and don't see how to get that.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I also tried
 - using the bash on the far left of the thin blue line instead of where it is placed in the replay and digging straight away from there
 - so the digger can then be stopped with that spare turner, and then climb up so I don't need the digger/floater later,
 - but she just can't get there even nearly before the top digger has finished (unless you use both turns, in which case there is no benefit to this)
 - Also using the miner at the bottom to ensure all lix go left doesn't work as you either undermine some going right or hit steel before finishing the job.

The Lix Who Japed - Took longer than it should have

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

For a while I was using the digger on the right hand edge and using a bridge + bash with the second lix to get them to the bottom - thus wasting a bridge I needed later.

Just Stop the Bleeding - Took a few attempts but mainly a case of working out how few skills you can get away with using on each side.

[Forestidia86]

I'm Gonna Make You Mine - From the replay I think I need at least 2 more miners. Or there is some technique that I am missing that saves skills. I don't see how to improve there. 

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I don't know if there is some way to avoid using them on the lower platform?

Passing Engagement - Feels like this should be an easy level with only 4 skills. I think 1 of my assumptions in the spoiled text must be incorrect but don't know which one.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

1. The platform has to be used to fill the gap, and is not wide enough to fill a gap at any other place.
2. The platformer will not be able to turn around on completion of their job.
3. If a blocker is used before the first drop, then any lix that turn on meeting her changing their direction from right to left will be unable to turn back again, so that option is out.
4. If a blocker is used before the first drop, then any lix that turn on meeting her changing their direction from left to right will be OK. I can also use a miner on the ridge before the first drop to keep all lix trapped before the platform is complete. However, I then have a single basher to undermine the blocker, and if successful no way to turn the basher round and save them.
5. If a blocker is used after the first drop then undermined, there is still no way to turn the basher/miner round or make them stop. I thought of trying to have the basher undermine the blocker then run out of land to bash but that can only work on the flattish ground towards the start of the level.

Hints for either or both of these levels would be appreciated, though I have a feeling the first one is more a case of just optimising the plan I already have more.

Hints for Passing Engagement:

Hint 1 (click to show/hide)

Think about what your main problem is and what would solve it and how it could be achieved with what you have (before you).

Hint 2 (click to show/hide)

Look closely at the terrain design.

Hint 3 (click to show/hide)

Does that indicate sth. to you?

Hint 4 (click to show/hide)

Consider your skills in connection with that.

Hint 5 (click to show/hide)

Maybe you can make use of it in the direction you need to.

Hint 6 (click to show/hide)

Have trust that everything works out timingwise.

Hint 7 (click to show/hide)

Think about how you can use the basher in the correct direction.

Hints for I'm Gonna Make You Mine (; they are rather tough to give without spoilering too much):

Hint 1 (click to show/hide)

Think about the fruitlessness of your attempts.

Hint 2 (click to show/hide)

Your solution idea is ingenious but maybe think further.

Hint 3 (click to show/hide)

Maybe try sth. different.

I can give more hints to Gonna Make You Mine if you considered all the hints and still can use some after applying them.

Good success.

[Wibble]

Thanks to the hints I have now solved Passing Engagement and I'm Gonna Make You Mine. Just the right level of spoilerness!

PE - Missed something simple! My original plan was correct with 1 small but important tweak.

IGMYM -

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I assume its the intended method. Now I know how to makes lemmings turn on bridges without blockers or cubers!

[geoo]

Merge Sort -- I'm happy you like it. There was some discussion on where to rank it, as I was afraid it might be too obvious while other players (I think Simon?) got stuck. I'm glad there's also some middle ground.

Derailed Level - On the other hand this one took a lot of attempts.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

For a while I was using the cube to block the other lix instead of just digging. I also didn't consider having any lix other than a climber building the platform, trying to go from right to left using the curved motion lines of the train. I feel a little cheated that the derailed train is not at all part of the solution, at least, not part of mine.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The train was a late addition -- Simon was unhappy about both levels looking the same and people confusing them, and he felt they needed something to put them apart and make them more memorable. So Simon added the train, which I think was a good idea and achieves this quite well; but that also introduces a red herring.

This Is Too Much Stepping Stones -- I have never seen this solution before! I'm sure, somewhat ironically, Insane Steve would be delighted to see this solution.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

This level was inspired by an alternative solution/backroute to the original Lemmings 1 level Stepping Stones. Steve turned the backroute into the main route of this new level...and you backrouted it!

Cornerstone -- Thanks for the praise! I was concerned the level might be a bit fiddly, but maybe it's alright after all.

Repeating Patterns -- This one turned out well by total coincidence. My usual modus operandi for making levels is having a trick in mind (e.g. from a failed solution attempt for some other level), and then building a level around it. I made the fractal and slapped a generic "10 of some skills" skill set onto it, and it turned out that with bashers this makes for a decent puzzle.
Cool to hear you're a maths teacher! Quite a few people in this forum have a background in maths or at least CS, and I've also done a few maths education related things (running maths camps, resource creation, tutoring...). I feel in some way there are quite some parallels in designing levels for puzzle games and designing a sequence of exercises for a maths topic, with exercises (ideally) building on top of each other and following logical progression to deepen the understanding of the concepts (which in puzzle games equates to the mechanics and solution strategies).

Duality -- I believe that this is a backroute.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

There is a way of only using 3 bridges at the bottom, and this changes quite a lot about the solution overall.

Gomen Ne Sunao Ja Nakute - Not sure if my method is the only one?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Those bridges only just fit again, but when I tried the route through 4 pillars then 2 above I found myself a bridge short

You can make the solution idea in spoilers work, you just need to figure out the crowd management. I guess your solution would be considered a backroute, but Proxima should confirm.

Rumble to the Bottom

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The reference solution uses the same skill set as your solution, with only one placement slightly different.

Two For His Heels -- You haven't requested hints yet, so I don't want to give a full fledged hint sequence yet (the way Forestidia does it seems great btw), but maybe just one vague starter hint, in case you want to look at it:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quite a few levels in this rank have been about crowd management where not just the skill placement, but also the timing was of importance.

[Proxima]

Gomen Ne Sunao Ja Nakute ... You can make the solution idea in spoilers work, you just need to figure out the crowd management. I guess your solution would be considered a backroute, but Proxima should confirm.

I don't have time to look over all the replays yet (and in any case, since you are still actively playing the pack, maybe it would be better to wait until you are done) but this is quick and easy enough to answer.

The intended route (not the specific skill placements) is indicated in the following spoiler tag, and any other route is a backroute:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[Forestidia86]

Gomen Ne Sunao Ja Nakute ... You can make the solution idea in spoilers work, you just need to figure out the crowd management. I guess your solution would be considered a backroute, but Proxima should confirm.

The intended route (not the specific skill placements) is indicated in the following spoiler tag, and any other route is a backroute:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Considering the shown route in the spoiler tag Wibble's solution to gomenne is a backroute.

[Simon]

Merge Sort -- I'm happy you like it. There was some discussion on where to rank it, as I was afraid it might be too obvious while other players (I think Simon?) got stuck. I'm glad there's also some middle ground.

Older versions of Merge Sort had solid terrain near the sides, it was enticing to make holding pits here. We reranked this from Cunning to Daunting.

Current version has thin floors only, to avoid this red herring. It's possible that the current version is easier. I assumed it's still fine in Daunting, but we haven't re-tested it with new players. I believe it's still Daunting.

Merge Sort is iconic. If one gets stuck here, and then solves it, it produces the rare a-ha effect.

-- Simon

[chaos_defrost]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I put the floor in in "This is too much Stepping Stones" as a red herring route on purpose, nice work showing that it can be worked out. 100% ok with leaving that in as an alternative solution. It's harder to do than the intended solution anyways

@Wibble: Also, loving the heck out of your comments on the levels in this pack. Been a few years since the harder stuff I wrote for it, but looking forward to your attempts at them Honestly a lot of what Lemmings as it was is about is trying to find wild solutions to levels that still work - so if your solution works, it works. I think every alternative route to a level I have written for Lix except for Chasm, of all levels, works. Resort if needed. Also note, backroutes exist for a reason

@Forestidia: Same, I'm in weird lurking mode since you've beaten a lot more of the levels I put in this pack so *shrug*

[Wibble]

It may take longer before my next level thoughts, I have looked at some vicious levels but only completed the first 5 for now (plus the 10th one, the one with only 1 lix). Still toying with ideas for Two For His Heels, I feel I am close but just not quite there.

I'm guessing from the comments made that the intended solution for This is too much Stepping Stones is

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

to build a bridge to the top (using blockers to help extend it), bash through the ceiling, and excavate down

Weirdly I wouldn't have thought of that - I think that shows I did the level on the original lemmings just by boringly making 3 well placed bridges!

I'd need more of a think on Gomen and Duality if my solutions are not the intended ones.

geoo - must admit I was thinking if I were to make a level pack my approach would be to think about failed alternative methods for levels and adapt the skillsets so those alternatives are the working method. I have an idea based on Slipping Again, and I could easily adapt I'm Gonna Make You Mine so my original method would work (but the way I ended up solving it doesn't) just by making the top block about half the thickness and removing 5 or so bridges.

And of course making a variant of This is Too Much Stepping Stones where my backroute is the intended method (for someone else to backroute) could be amusing!

Totally agree there are parallels between maths problems (and I suppose CS problems - that one isn't so much my area) and creation/solving of levels.

[Wibble]

I have now looked at the first 14 levels of Vicious, all done apart from Changing of the Guard.

Vicious  levels 1-6 - First 5 all felt like a jump down in difficulty from most of Daunting. , but that said the first few of each difficulty so far have felt easier than the end of the previous one.

Dividing Three By Two - I like the puzzle to this, the part of the solution I missed for a while was

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

the blocker - and the idea behind Passing Engagement helped me here

Conundrum - This one didn't take long. I feel the main element to this could have been used as part of a bigger level. 

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

On my first attempt I tried just setting up a sprinter to build the bridge and saw the chas only needed 2 of 3 bridges. Then I just needed to see where to put the 3rd to help

Endeavor  - Aside from the US English spelling this is up there with my favourites so far. It had 2 elements to the solution that I have not used before

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Timing of floaters to ensure different landing points, and having 2 bridges meet in the middle of a gap)

Low Profile - Completed first attempt, feels more like late Quirky/early Cunning in difficulty. I don't mind having a breather every so often mind

Betcha Can't Save Just One - A few things about this level have me curious. Firstly, is it possible to complete this in any of the 4 sanctuaries? Secondly, the title. It implies to me that the setter is saying saving just 1 is not possible, you have to save 2 or more? Betcha Can't Even Save One as a title would give the impression that you should target 1 only. Finally

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

given I nuked a spare lix, is it possible to save 2?

Changing of the Guards - Errmmmm.... I don't even know where to start with this one. When I see the solution I'm either going to think I missed something really easy or that its an ingenious level. Maybe both. Not asking for hints yet, I don't even think I've scratched the surface with this!

 

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The only way to make the fall height small enough to survive is to have a floater reach the bottom to make a bridge, so both of those skills are used up.

The only way even with a bridge that the fall can be survived is if you dig in the middle.

The only way you can get an lix from the right hand side involved is by setting up a blocker.

That doesn't leave me with much!

[Wibble]

The Last Laugh - Nice stall level. To solve this I learned that

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

When a climber falls they turn round - usually they have to turn around because they are at the base of the wall anyway.

Elixir - Deciding which way to loop the climber was what made me take the most time.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I was also trying to get 2 climbers together and have 1 explode to fling the other into precise positions - didn't work! Once I saw the idea of using a bridge from left to right on the far wall, to ensure the climbers did not fully climb that wall, I had it.

Lixster Quadrille - Nice level requiring economy of skills.

One-Lix Showdown - Felt a little on the easier side, the terrain governed where to use the skills to an extent. One of the first levels I solved in this difficulty.

Down Among the Dead Lix - A good number of potential red herrings here.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

At first I tried to use imploders on the right hand pillar to save bridges, but needed to many for the fall height to be sufficiently lowered.

. Some precise placement required,

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The bottom imploder

which at this difficulty seems fair.

Laser Deathroom - Really liked the design and solution of this one.

[Proxima]

Vicious  levels 1-6 - First 5 all felt like a jump down in difficulty from most of Daunting. , but that said the first few of each difficulty so far have felt easier than the end of the previous one.

This is deliberate, and imitates one of the features I found admirable about the original Lemmings.

Betcha Can't Save Just One - A few things about this level have me curious. Firstly, is it possible to complete this in any of the 4 sanctuaries? Secondly, the title. It implies to me that the setter is saying saving just 1 is not possible, you have to save 2 or more? Betcha Can't Even Save One as a title would give the impression that you should target 1 only. Finally

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

given I nuked a spare lix, is it possible to save 2?

The title is a pun on an advertising slogan, "Betcha can't eat just one!" and you don't need to read more into it than that

About possible solutions... (click to show/hide)

The level was originally intended to have a single solution, using the third exit only and saving just 1. Three lemmings/lix had to cooperate to enable this, with the far right one doing nothing. But it's long since been known -- dating back to the Lemmix days -- that the level has other solutions; some of these carry over to the Lix remake, although some specifics are different due to precise details of the terrain and different game mechanics. In C++ Lix it was possible to save 2 in the far left exit; I don't know for certain what's possible on this level in D Lix, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if using a different exit and/or saving more than 1 is still possible.

[Wibble]

BCSJO - I think based on your spoiler that my method is the conventional intended solution then.