Fake objects in Custlemm

[JM]

Hi

On some levels I've played in Custlemm I've disocvered fake traps and exits. When a lemming tries to reach the exit he doesn't enter it and just walks past it. When he reaches a trap he walks past it without the trap touching him when no other lemming is with him. Also some lemmings just fall through the water without even drowning.

I have no idea why this happens so please could somebody explain to me thank you  

[DragonsLover]

Explained here. Just take a look!

The strange thing is that you've already posted and seen this topic. So, why are you asking this question?

If you only wants the explanations, then let ccexplore explains!

[ccexplore]

Just make an object's z-order be 16 or higher and it would behave as a fake object.

The only exception is the entrance trapdoor. &#A0;They are not affected by z-order, but CustLemm only handles a maximum of 4 (counting from the lowest z-order going up). &#A0;So the 5th entrance and beyond will not release any lemmings, and therefore fake. &#A0;And you can overlap multiple entrances to get the same effect of a single entrance. &#A0;(For example, overlapping 4 entrances in the same position will yield the exact effect as having just one entrance in that position.)

Keep in mind though that some people don't like fake objects, especially when they are intentionally misleading to someone trying to solve the level.

[DragonsLover]

Yeah, but JM asked WHY doing this? WHY does it happen?

[JM]

Oh! I forgot about that topic. Thanks Dragonslover  

[ccexplore]

Yeah, but JM asked WHY doing this? WHY does it happen?

Actually, reading what JM posted, he was asking why (ie. "how come") some objects in some levels are fake. &#A0;So in essence the question is really asking how to make fake objects, despite the word "why". Welcome to English.

But as for the answer to the true "why" question, I guess it might be a memory limitation thing specific to the DOS version, coupled by the programmer's desire to do the easiest thing. &#A0;It might seem ridiculous that having 16 more objects to keep track of would really overwhelm the amount of memory available back in those days. &#A0;But actually, due to the particular way the DOS version implements interactive objects, having to track interactive objects with z-order of 16 or higher will actually drastically increase the amount of memory needed, strange as it might sound.

What's interesting is how the other versions behave, since as you know, the DOS version is missing many "non-essential" interactive objects that are present in other versions. &#A0;In particular, at least according to the screenshots at home.wanadoo, some levels like Taxing 27 or Mayhem 29 might well exceed the DOS limit. &#A0;It would be interesting to see whether on the Amiga or other versions, all the interactive objects you see are real. &#A0;(Though it's quite possible that some might simply not be reachable with the amount of skills given, and therefore not testable.)

[tseug]

But actually, due to the particular way the DOS version implements interactive objects, having to track interactive objects with z-order of 16 or higher will actually drastically increase the amount of memory needed, strange as it might sound.

You mean it would actually allocate memory for all 256 objects, even though most of them wouldn't be used??? That sounds like some bad coding on the part of the programmer.

[ccexplore]

You mean it would actually allocate memory for all 256 objects, even though most of them wouldn't be used??? That sounds like some bad coding on the part of the programmer.

Your guess is incorrect. &#A0;It's true though that the game, programmed as it is, always allocates memory for 16 real objects, even if there are fewer, but that isn't really wasteful since some levels will truly need have that many objects, and it's arguably preferable in low memory conditions to make the game not run at all than have it run until it hits the level that so happens to use up all the memory.

Anyway, after a little thought, I realize that it is in principle possible to rewrite the program support real objects with z-order 16 or higher, without increasing memory usage drastically and without fundamentally changing how the program does certain things.

[DragonsLover]

Actually, reading what JM posted, he was asking why (ie. "how come") some objects in some levels are fake. &#A0;So in essence the question is really asking how to make fake objects, despite the word "why". Welcome to English.

I really need more English class lessons! Oh well... my english! :-X

Anyway, I wanted, me, to know the reason why. So, I should change my question above!

[minglw]

You mean it would actually allocate memory for all 256 objects, even though most of them wouldn't be used??? That sounds like some bad coding on the part of the programmer.

Your guess is incorrect. &#A0;It's true though that the game, programmed as it is, always allocates memory for 16 real objects, even if there are fewer, but that isn't really wasteful since some levels will truly need have that many objects, and it's arguably preferable in low memory conditions to make the game not run at all than have it run until it hits the level that so happens to use up all the memory.

Anyway, after a little thought, I realize that it is in principle possible to rewrite the program support real objects with z-order 16 or higher, without increasing memory usage drastically and without fundamentally changing how the program does certain things.

ccexplore,  do you plan to rewrite the program  ?

It would be cool if someone disassemble the lemming program and re-write it to fix or introduce new functions.
( similar to what was done to the Supaplex game.)

It would be nice if there's a way to record/replay solution.

Or even make it so that you can select which level pack to play from a list.

[ccexplore]

Anyway, after a little thought, I realize that it is in principle possible to rewrite the program support real objects with z-order 16 or higher, without increasing memory usage drastically and without fundamentally changing how the program does certain things.

ccexplore, &#A0;do you plan to rewrite the program &#A0;?

It would be cool if someone disassemble the lemming program and re-write it to fix or introduce new functions.
( similar to what was done to the Supaplex game.)

It would be nice if there's a way to record/replay solution.

Or even make it so that you can select which level pack to play from a list.

Sorry, not at this time.

But fortunately for you, the two features you mentioned are probably supportable without touching the game executable itself at all (a plus since you always risk introducing new bugs to the game if you attempt to rewrite it). &#A0;For example, selecting a level pack can be done using an external program, which then launches a batch file that copies the desired level pack into the file levelpak.dat where CustLemm resides, then launches CustLemm.

[minglw]

It would be cool if someone disassemble the lemming program and re-write it to fix or introduce new functions.
( similar to what was done to the Supaplex game.)

It would be nice if there's a way to record/replay solution.

Or even make it so that you can select which level pack to play from a list.

Sorry, not at this time.

But fortunately for you, the two features you mentioned are probably supportable without touching the game executable itself at all (a plus since you always risk introducing new bugs to the game if you attempt to rewrite it). &#A0;For example, selecting a level pack can be done using an external program, which then launches a batch file that copies the desired level pack into the file levelpak.dat where CustLemm resides, then launches CustLemm.[/quote]


For the levelpack select, yes that's easy to do with a batch job or an external program to select it from a list.  It's just not as nice as if it's incorporated into the main program.

The other function (solution record/play) is not possible without re-writing the program.
Wouldn't it be nice if the program can record the solution into solution file... and we can share it
among players.   (Similar to the DEMO files that you can record and play in Supaplex -- at least the hacked version).

I am hoping that Peter can add this support into the next Cheapo release (if there's one) or in the dimwits.

[ccexplore]

The other function (solution record/play) is not possible without re-writing the program.

I mean it when I said both features can be done, at least theoretically, without touching the game executable. &#A0;Think keystroke logger and DOSBox.

[minglw]

The other function (solution record/play) is not possible without re-writing the program.

I mean it when I said both features can be done, at least theoretically, without touching the game executable. &#A0;Think keystroke logger and DOSBox.

Yeah, I guess if DOSBOX support recording/replaying inputs (keyboard, mouse or other devices), then it's possible.

I haven't check into the functions of DOSBOX yet, if it doesn't already support recording/replaying inputs to/from a file, maybe we can suggest it as a new function to DOSBOX.    Hopefully, it can be added.

[DragonsLover]

The recording feature of Dosbox would be available in the next version of it. And I'm waiting for it!

Or you can download "recording the screen" programs and try them to record.

About Supaplex and the possibility to record demos, it's not kinda the same thing for Lemmings. The level itself is copied into the .sp file and all the "recording" of the events are recorded as well into the level. Is that would be possible for Lemmings?

[geoo]

I think adding the demo information to the end of the file (either the dat file and referring to the level number or the extracted level) should be no problem. The other option is to save the demo into a separate file referring to a level pack and number respectively a single level, as the Supaplex demo#.bin does (it uses the level number).
Creating a demo format wouldn't be the problem either, see for example Cheapo (although the function is buggy and you cannot save the recording).

But I doubt that anyone would be going to take the time to implement the demo function into CustLemm, although it would be useful; that's the main problem I think.

[namida]

The future of Lemmings is definately in Cheapo (or it's successors), it's just a matter of time before Custlemm is basically unuseable due to newer Windows and stuff. So if someone could hack that (or maybe just ask Peter Spada for the source code) and add saveable replays, that'd work well.

[Mindless]

The future of Lemmings is definately in Cheapo (or it's successors), it's just a matter of time before Custlemm is basically unuseable due to newer Windows and stuff. So if someone could hack that (or maybe just ask Peter Spada for the source code) and add saveable replays, that'd work well.

I'll agree with you if, and only if, Peter Spada's Dimwits game has non-bitmap levels (but intead use a format like the Lemmings LVL format) and Dimwits' game engine is very close to the original Lemmings engine.  That way most of the levelpacks that are already created for CustLemm could easily be ported, and no one would ever NEED to look back.

As for CustLemm dying, it will live as long as DOSBox lives and people want to use it.

[ccexplore]

I wonder what happened to 0xdeadbeef? &#A0;The Java Lemmings project he was working on would have great potential to become a Cheapo replacement that support more CustLemm-like behavior.

It's true that we've since gained enough knowledge to potentially allow some customization of CustLemm, but it'll take too much programming work, and ultimately there are many DOS-related limits you'll run into.

It's actually kind of depressing though how people here feels about Cheapo. &#A0;There are definitely many great Cheapo levels out there. &#A0;I also don't necessary think CustLemm's game mechanics is always the best answer either. &#A0;Which is why it'd be interesting to see how the voting would go when the time comes to decide the glitch-fixing status of Lemmings remake, but that's for another thread. .

[Mindless]

I wonder what happened to 0xdeadbeef?  The Java Lemmings project he was working on would have great potential to become a Cheapo replacement that support more CustLemm-like behavior.

:-X

...

 ;D

(Take this post to mean whatever you'd like it to.)

[Mindless]

It's true that we've since gained enough knowledge to potentially allow some customization of CustLemm, but it'll take too much programming work, and ultimately there are many DOS-related limits you'll run into.

I've always hoped for a good open-source Lemmings clone... but none has been satisfactory.  If we could get together a number of interested devs, I think we could end up with a very nice clone, since nearly all the Lemmings file formats are known, and with all the glitches you've discovered, I assume you know quite a bit about the game engine.  Unfortunatly, this is still a dream.  :-/

[0xdeadbeef]

 

[MC Marshy]

One of the problems I get when making levels is that I keep ending up with fake traps and fake objects in the levels. It's always the exits where you need 1 builder to place in the middle so you can get to the exit. I've played so many levels with misplaced exits they are really annoying.