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Simon:
This was split off from Simon blocks blogs.

Block-based Lemmings

mobius likes L3's block-based physics. Lemmings can only do things at multiples of 8 pixels, far coarser than the single-pixel granularity of L1 and L2. When you play L3, you must assign at seemingly unnatural times and often fail good-looking assignments, but I'm not sure if this is typical for block-based Lemmings or a failure of L3's user interface.

Raymanni toys with the idea to write a game like L3D, presumably block-based, but we haven't talked about details much. L3D works with extremely coarse blocks, it took 1-2 seconds for a lemming to traverse a single block at normal speed.

Compared L1 and L2, all of Lix, (Super)Lemmini, and Clones refine the pixel granularity to at least twice the pixel density. This doesn't necessarily produce better gameplay either. Clones enraged the most: Your clones couldn't slip through single-pixel gaps and would instead bonk their head at single leftover pixels in the terrain.

Maybe Lemmings 1 hits a sweet spot, a windfall because 320x200 EGA or VGA were widespread in the early 1990s.

Or maybe there's more to the even coarser games, and we don't know it yet. In that case, best of luck to Raymanni with hist first prototype, whenever he'll start cracking on that. :lix-grin:

-- Simon

ccexplore:

--- Quote from: Simon on March 19, 2018, 02:40:48 AM ---mobius likes L3's block-based physics. Lemmings can only do things at multiples of 8 pixels, far coarser than the single-pixel granularity of L1 and L2. When you play L3, you must assign at seemingly unnatural times and often fail good-looking assignments, but I'm not sure if this is typical for block-based Lemmings or a failure of L3's user interface.
--- End quote ---

Gameboy and NES Lemmings also have mostly block-based physics (due to technical limitations), and it seems like most people who played those ports complain about that aspect especially wrt skill assignments.  I'll grant you that L3 also has additional quirks that doesn't help matters.

Still, it seems like timing of skill assignments in block-based physics is something you can probably get used to over time?  I managed to play through both NES and Gameboy Lemmings just fine, and I do believe I can appreciate how the block-based physics helps to keep things less precision-prone.


--- Quote from: Simon on March 19, 2018, 02:40:48 AM ---Clones enraged the most: Your clones couldn't slip through single-pixel gaps and would instead bonk their head at single leftover pixels in the terrain.

Maybe Lemmings 1 hits a sweet spot, a windfall because 320x200 EGA or VGA were widespread in the early 1990s.
--- End quote ---

Clones' problem is more about the collision detection, I expect it would just be as annoying in the lower resolution of Lemmings 1.  More generally, it also helps when the level design itself avoids forcing the player to pay attention to pixel-precision-level details.  Perhaps that's easier in singleplayer levels than multiplayer.

Ryemanni:
I prefer block-based puzzle games. They feel more consistent usually have very clear rules. (I'm talking about something like Chip's Challenge, for example.)

I've actually been wondering how to improve L3D's grid. The levels are created with 64x64x64 blocks, which are sometimes slopes or cut in half. Lemmings can only execute skills when they are at the precise position on the grid (digger in the middle, basher at the edge, builder on both...)

So why not make the blocks smaller and get rid of the slabs, Lemmings could also take up one cell in the grid at a time.

This method feels like better choice, but I need to take in account all of the game mechanics L3D had to offer. How would the builder work, for example? How about slopes and turning-walls?
At the end of the day I'm not trying to completely recreate L3D. That game had it's flaws, and that's why I want to improve my version. :lemming:

ccexplore:
I've yet to have played Lemmings 3D.  What angle does builders and miners use in that game?  Is it the typical 2-to-1 slope?  If so, perhaps that's how the half-block comes into play in the game physics.

In contrast, NES and Gameboy Lemmings use square blocks, but then also alter builders and miners to go at 45-degree slopes.  I don't think any other ports of Lemmings 1 use such slopes.

namida:
If I remember correctly, builder is the usual 2:1, whereas a miner is 4:1.

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