Lemmings Challenges

[guest]

(Wicked 15)Now improved to 94% (47/50). &#A0;Total lost down to 91.

Whoops, apparently I didn't push my own method far enough.

So now Wicked 15 is improved to 96% (48/50), total lost down to 90.  This is definitely the maximum for that method, if not for the level itself.

[guest]

Turns out my method for Wicked 15 is applicable elsewhere as well......

Taxing 28: Lose 17

This has now been improved to lose 16 (80%, 64/80) on the PC.

Be warned, this is quite difficult.  The method from Wicked 15 is only a small part of the solution.  It changes the solution fundamentally from how you'd do "lose 17", so there're quite a few other things to work out, not to mention a few precision-moves (well, at least that's how I did it; maybe easier ways exist).

To give you an idea:  if you have about 4 to 5 more builders, it would be possible to lose just 13.  But unfortunately, you don't have that many builders.

Anyway, so total on the Lemmings challenge is now 65.

[guest]

I finally succeeded!  B) ......

[Taxing 28] This has now been improved to lose 16 (80%, 64/80) on the PC.

Now improved to lose 15 (81%, 65/80) on the PC!

And yes, I have been trying this since I last reported lose 16, so yeah, that's like 3 days, meaning took longer to achieve than my Havoc 10 record, so...yikes.  X_X

Almost every move in this solution has some precision or timing element to it.  Here's a hint on one of the easier (but no less important) moves (change font to read):

You can create a safe path under that trap near the exit with just a single bomber.

And so, total lemmings lost down to 64.  I highly doubt lose 14 is possible on this level but hey, feel free to prove me wrong.

[guest]

Ok, here's an interesting challenge which I've confirmed on the PC/DOS version:

Wicked 6 ` PoP TiL\ YoU DrOp: Save 98% (79/80) without using any bombers

And if you're wondering why I didn't manage 100%, well, thanks to some weird way the game handles the miner, the miner mining the way to the exit seems to inexplicably fall a bit farther out than everyone else, and thanks to the terrain near the exit, the miner's fall is fatal while the crowd's isn't.   I'm still hoping though there's a way to fix this.

===============

I recall hearing that on the Windows version, the lemmings can build out of their initial locations and be gathered into a single place.  This does not work in the DOS version and has absolutely nothing to do with how I did the challenge above, so don't bother with that approach.

[Shvegait]

Maybe the miner is never considered a walker, and its maximum safe fall distance is 3 lower

Or something silly like that (maybe just 1 or 2 pixels different).

[geoo]

When experimentalizing with Havoc 5 I had the same problem in a special case.
Looking closer (WinLem) I saw that the feet of the miner are not at the level of the ground when doing a hit.
This also could be a reason.

[guest]

Maybe the miner is never considered a walker, and its maximum safe fall distance is 3 lower

Or something silly like that (maybe just 1 or 2 pixels different).

When experimentalizing with Havoc 5 I had the same problem in a special case.
Looking closer (WinLem) I saw that the feet of the miner are not at the level of the ground when doing a hit.
This also could be a reason.

I did a little more investigation, and sadly it looks like Shvegait might be right.

I changed the mining path slightly so that when the miner falls, it is not in the "hit" phase that geoo89 mentioned.

The miner animation in DOS is roughly like this:

1) miner's shovel strike ground, creating 2 more steps
2) then the miner "jumps" down to 1st step (I think that's what geoo89 refers to)
3) and then the miner walks down to the 2nd step.  
Then it repeats.

I adjusted where the miner starts mining, such that the fall occurs during phase 3 instead of phase 2.  So it should basically start falling at the same position as a normal walker from the crowd would; at least visually that's what it looks like.

And yet, the miner splatted while the walker survive.  The miner splat at the same altitude as where the walker lands, which further makes it appear that they both travelled the same number of pixels (62).

So Shvegait might be right, the same "bug" that gives us the usual falling distance of 63 seems not to apply to a miner.

And unfortunately my solution doesn't give much flexibility to lower where the exit-path miner starts mining.  :-(  What a wicked level!

[guest]

well, thanks to some weird way the game handles the miner, the miner mining the way to the exit seems to inexplicably fall a bit farther out than everyone else, and thanks to the terrain near the exit, the miner's fall is fatal while the crowd's isn't. &#A0; I'm still hoping though there's a way to fix this.

YES!  I found a way to get around this!  B)

And so, finally:

Wicked 6 ` PoP TiL\ YoU DrOp: Save 100%!

Ok, so the way to get around this.  It's funny, it's basically another miner glitch that fixes the problem.  O_o  (Note:  as of now, this has only been tested on the DOS version of ONML.)

This is the basis for the glitch that saved all the lemmings (no spoilers there, so go ahead and look):

http://www.geocities.com/guestlevels/lemmings/buildingonthinair_a.png
http://www.geocities.com/guestlevels/lemmings/buildingonthinair_b.png

So let me explain.  First of all, recall from the earlier post about the 3 phases a miner cycles through.  Anyway, it turns out that, if you assign a skill, say, a builder, to a miner who's in the midst of phase 1 (swinging the ax towards the ground), with good timing you can assign that skill immediately after the swinging hits the ground.

But here's the interesting part:  when he starts building he will start building on the step below, instead of the step where he is standing while swinging the ax.

Ok, so what, big deal.  Here's the catch:  suppose you've already reached the bottom so that there is no "next step below", then what?  As shown in the screenshot, you will still be allowed to build, so you end up building on thin air!  And you thought Cheapo's replay glitches were bad......

The best way to convince yourself that this works is to try it out on a level in DOS Lemmings, such as ONML Tame #8 (which is where I made the screenshots from).  Wait until the miner is about to execute the swing that would break through, then try to pause the game while in mid-swing.  Then press F7 to switch to a builder, and then unpause and simultaneously (or so it seems) assign the builder on the miner.  If done right you should end up with what the screenshot shows.

============

Spectacular as this is, this won't quite help on Wicked 6.  The builder's bricks would actually shift the falling point closer to the exit, which actually just kills everyone.

However, now consider that instead of assigning a builder to the miner, you assign a blocker to the miner.  Just like you can build on thin air, the game too, will allow you to assign the blocker at that situation.  But of course, a blocker standing on thin air will immediately turn into a faller, but nonetheless you can see on the skills toolbar that a blocker is consumed.  (Feel free to try this out on tame 8.)

And here's the kicker:  it turns out that when a blocker falls, the maximum falling distance is apparently same as a normal walker.  So by doing this seemingly pointless move, you can allow your (former) miner to survive the fall!

==============

To correctly apply this trick, you must make sure two things:

1) You must assign the blocker while the miner is in mid-swing. [ie., while in phase 1].  It wouldn't work in other phases of the miner.  (Or at least I haven't succeeded yet.)

2) There must be no "next step" in front of the miner, so that the blocker will immediately fall.  Otherwise it will just stay a blocker standing on that next step.

So you need to plan where you start mining very carefully.  For example, in Tame 8, suppose you build a single step and then mine from that step.  This seemingly minor change is enough to prevent you from doing building-on-thin-air, because condition #2 is violated when you shift the mining tunnel up by one pixel.  It helps to know that each time a miner strikes, it creates 2 new steps in front and will move down to the 2nd step before the next strike.  Each step is 2 pixels wide and 1 pixel tall.  The trick requires that there be no "1st step" created by the final swing you made.

=========

Anyway, so total lemmings lost on ONML is down to 89.  Also, the total number of non-100%-able levels in DOS ONML has now gone down to 20, which until a month or so ago was thought to be the number of non-100%-able levels in DOS Lemmings.

[guest]

...well, in any case, I just got 100% on Havoc 17 (PC/DOS version).

Now improved to 101%.  Just kidding!  

No, just a minor update:  I found a second 100% solution on Havoc 17, which doesn't use direct-drop unlike the first 100% solution I found.

Unfortunately this was much harder to execute than expected.  Thanks to the overzealous use of the grass traps near the exit area, my attempt to dig down a little and then mine towards the exit turns out to be much more aggravating than I ever imagined.  Thanks to the weird way the game handles the miner, the miner doesn't always seem to fall at the exact same place as the crowd.  It seems you need to mine and dig at pixel-precise locations to get an outcome where both the miner and the crowd can fall safely to the exit, instead of one or the other falling into those #@*$&#@$ grass traps (and I used to thought those lizards were annoying.......).

[guest]

Tame: pass all 20 levels with 100% using a total of 5 builders

I've verified on the PC and Amiga that it's possible to do the above using only a total of 4 builders.

The level where I save the builder is Tame 14 ("Get a little extra help").  It does however use a minor glitch involving a climber, which is why I also verified it on the Amiga to see if it has the same behavior (not surprisingly, it does).  It won't work in Cheapo though.

[guest]

The level where I save the builder is Tame 14 ("Get a little extra help"). &#A0;It does however use a minor glitch involving a climber

Clarification:  the concept behind the solution does not really use any glitches.  What happens is that, as it turns out, due to the particular pixels of the terrain, the aforementioned minor glitch is needed for the solution to work as hoped.  A single-pixel difference would have been enough to avoid needing the glitch.

[guest]

I was looking over Mayhem 29 again and it appears that the following might be possible (but currently unconfirmed, unfortunately):

Mayhem 29:  lose 4 without using any glitches involving digging or bashing away steel

The main reason I mention this is that, in many versions of Lemmings including the SNES, Amiga and Windows version, but unlike the DOS version, the bottom of the level has a deep layer of water.  Deep enough such that only about 6 pixels of the starting steel platform is above water.  I think that water could significantly impact the use of the "Go West" route critical for the lose 3, in which case it's nice to have a fallback on the watery versions.  The glitch-free lose-4 here is the fallback.  It's conceptually quite straightforward for the most part.

Of course, the real pain as usual is towards the end, where you basically rely on "luck" and 2 spare builders in hoping that you achieve enough separation between the leader and the lemming behind it, so that the very last ramp-blocker can be ready in time without losing anyone in the crowd.  That is indeed the unconfirmed portion of the potential solution.  I actually had something that looked promising, and then towards the end I screwed up by mistakenly selecting the blocker rather than the intended builder--talk about "worse way to lose".  (I'm kinda prone to this since I habitually use the keyboard to switch between skills, and unfortunately the blocker is next to the builder on the keyboard.)

It'd be useful if someone knows or can figure out how far you need to build out before the last blocker becomes functional.  I'm hoping I don't need to build more than once there.

In the meanwhile I better get back to the music stuff before Ahribar brings that up yet again.  

[guest]

Of course, the real pain as usual is towards the end, where you basically rely on "luck" and 2 spare builders in hoping that you achieve enough separation between the leader and the lemming behind it<snip>

I'm hoping I don't need to build more than once there.

Actually, now that I think of it, by making good use of the release rate during the beginning, it should be possible towards the end to create a setup where the leader of the crowd and the 3 lemmings behind him are each spaced the maximum distance apart as dictated by the minimum RR of 50.  Then the use of the 2 spare builders will give you a separation equal to 3 units of RR-50 separation.  I think that should be enough to ensure that the last ramp-blocker will be ready before anyone catches up.

So still unconfirmed, but at least it looks much more approachable.  If I'm going to confirm this I think I'll do it in the Amiga for good measure (since after all, a better solution exists in the waterless DOS version anyway--and okay, because the Amiga emulator has savestates).

I'll add that, if this is indeed confirmed possible, then I'm very surprised it hasn't been confirmed much earlier, since as I said, not only is it glitch-free, but it is for the most part pretty straightforward.

[guest]

Havoc 10:  Save 66% (14/21).<snip>

Be warn that this pushes the method to its extreme, so you cannot get a higher score unless you find a better way.

Amazingly, I found a better way!

This would've been unthinkable a month ago, but I've now improved this to......

Havoc 10: save 76% (16/21)!

The reason for this new success?  For the first time, a method (not involving the builder which of course you can't waste) has been found to actually contain the crowd!

http://www.geocities.com/guestlevels/lemmings/havoc10_thetrick_b.png

This undoubtedly needs some serious explanation.  It makes use of a glitch involving, once again, the miner.  In fact, this glitch bears a slight relation to the miner glitch/technique I used back in my 100% solution for wicked 6.

Don't read the next post if you want to discover the glitch for yourself, although my guess is you'd rather just read it.

<breaking post here into 2 to get around the 5500-character limit>

[guest]

<continue on from above>

First, refresh your memory with this picture, which I posted when discussing the glitch/technique used for the 100% solution of wicked 6.

Recall that, back then, my explanation was that you can start building on thin air if you turn the miner into a builder immediately after the mining finishes the ax-strike but before he starts moving forward.  I then explained that if you turn the miner to a blocker instead, he will fall down.

But in fact, even back when I tried to create that picture of "building on thin air" on Tame 8, one of my tries (with a blocker) actually ended up looking more like this even weirder situation:

http://www.geocities.com/guestlevels/lemmings/stopminingbeforebreakthru.png

Wow, how did that happen?  Back then I merely ignored it (it certainly didn't help wicked 6), but recently I re-experiment with it again, and have now come to the conclusion that this is what's happening:

It seems that the game, at least the PC version (though I wouldn't be surprised if it happens on other versions), miscalculates the y position of a lemming during certain animation frames of the mining animation.  In particular, observations led me to believe that, from the moment the miner's ax starts swinging forward/downwards, the game already places the miner's position to be 1 pixel lower than the step it was standing on as it swings the ax.

As a result, even before it actually mined thru the terrain, there's a short moment where its feet is already at the bottom row of pixels of the floor.  In other words, it is really standing on thin air, even though it doesn't look like it.  And so if at that moment you turn it into a blocker, it would fall down.  Thus the screenshot above.  This is also possibly why the trick used for wicked 6 worked so well.  Had this glitch been absent, it's likely that the blocker would not be able to fall even in wicked 6.

Anyway, again I used Tame 8 (Dangerzone) for the screenshot above, I encourage you to try replicating it.  Try to turn the miner to a blocker when the ax is about to do the forward strike that would've broken through.  After a few tries you should hopefully end up with the same result.

-------------------

Now, Havoc 10 doesn't have blockers.  And diggers are not a suitable substitute, since it turns out that each time a digger digs down it actually removes 2 rows of pixels rather than 1 (a topic for some other time), so turning it into a digger will end up breaking thru the terrain despite the miner's unusual vertical position.

But there's a most unusual substitute that serves the purpose here:  exploders!  You heard me right.  Here's the kicker:  you know how, when the countdown reaches 0, if the lemming isn't already falling, it first transitions to an "oh-no-er" before it actually explodes?  Now, anyone who observes a nuking closely should know that oh-no-ers do fall when the ground underneath its feet are removed.

And so this is the applicable trick for Havoc 10:  you timed the exploder while it is mining, so that it turns into the oh-no-er at the same moment you would want to turn the miner into a blocker above.  Then because he turns into the oh-no-er, the mining will stop.  But then because of the miscalculation of the miner's y position, when he turns into an oh-no-er, he will be standing on thin air, and so he'll fall.  In fact, he'll be gone off the bottom of the level before the explosion ever happens.  The result is this:

http://www.geocities.com/guestlevels/lemmings/havoc10_thetrick_a.png

Wicked, isn't it?  Now, be warned that replicating this screenshot is much harder than replicating the Tame 8 screenshot, and not just because timing bombers are more difficult.  The real issue is that you have to time it at such a precise moment, that no part of the miner's ax-swing has removed any terrain yet.  It took me about half an hour of continuous tries to get this screenshot.  Too early and the miner will not fall thru the floor.  Too late and the miner will either completely break thru first, or will partially break the top 3 rows or so of pixels ahead, which is still bad since it destroys the crowd-containing capability.  The correct timing is about after 2 swings, and just when the 3rd swing is starting (starting meaning the miner starts to throw the ax backwards).

--------------------

Now, all these is just to explain the glitch.  The actual solution is of course a bit more involved.  (For one thing, in the actual solution you start mining a bit more to the right.)  And because you effectively "waste" one exploder skill in applying the glitch, you end up having to sacrifice more lemmings to the traps than the previous 14/21 solution.  But in the end you will create a trap-free path for the crowd, and clearly the ability to contain the crowd is a winner here.  (How to release the crowd will be left as an exercise for the reader.)  More detailed screenshots are available upon request.

<still too long, another break>