Author Topic: [NeoLemmix] SubLems  (Read 23307 times)

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Offline namida

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Re: SubLems released for NeoLemmix Version 1.48!
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2016, 03:26:53 AM »
Okay. The most likely reason then, is that the code for loading graphic sets was entirely rewritten for NL1.47; this is because NL1.47 is internally based off the new-formats version, but with added code for backwards compatibility with existing formats (indeed, due to some of the finer details of this, it actually ends up being not compatible with the actual new-formats files for the most part; but it does use the internal workings that were designed for them). Chances are there's some slight difference in how it resizes the trigger areas of Lemmini objects (which have twice the resolution of native NL ones; the graphic set files still keep these higher resolution images and just resize them at runtime), which would be the cause of this trigger area change you observe.

I'd think that by now, most Lemmini-origin graphic sets have already been adjusted if needed for V1.47 / V1.48. So, it would probably do more harm than good to fix this change. However, what I do need to do is add an option to GSTool to convert Lemmini graphic sets so that they're natively at NeoLemmix size, rather than keeping Lemmini-sized data and resizing them at runtime. This would prevent future issues of this kind. It doesn't seem like NeoLemmix is going to get support for higher-resolution graphics anytime soon, so it's probably safe to do this; the higher-res images can always be re-obtained from the Lemmini source graphic sets if such a thing does happen.
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline Colorful Arty

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Re: SubLems V2.0 released for NeoLemmix Version 1.48!
« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2016, 03:15:48 PM »
V2.0 is here! It includes:

Backroute seals for Scary 18, Insane 15, Insane 18, and Hellish 2.

The exit on Chaotic 7 is no longer hidden.

The platform the exit is on on Hellish 3 is a bit thicker to make the level a bit more forgiving.
My Youtube channel where I let's play games with family-friendly commentary:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCiRPZ5j87ft_clSRLFCESQA

My Twitch channel: https://www.twitch.tv/colorfularty

My levelpack: SubLems
For New formats NeoLemmix: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4942.0
For Old formats NeoLemmix: http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=2787.0
For SuperLemmini: http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=2704.0

My levelpack: ArtLems
For New formats NeoLemmix: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4583.0

Offline Wafflem

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Re: SubLems released for NeoLemmix Version 1.48!
« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2016, 03:20:39 PM »
Okay. The most likely reason then, is that the code for loading graphic sets was entirely rewritten for NL1.47; this is because NL1.47 is internally based off the new-formats version, but with added code for backwards compatibility with existing formats (indeed, due to some of the finer details of this, it actually ends up being not compatible with the actual new-formats files for the most part; but it does use the internal workings that were designed for them). Chances are there's some slight difference in how it resizes the trigger areas of Lemmini objects (which have twice the resolution of native NL ones; the graphic set files still keep these higher resolution images and just resize them at runtime), which would be the cause of this trigger area change you observe.

I'd think that by now, most Lemmini-origin graphic sets have already been adjusted if needed for V1.47 / V1.48. So, it would probably do more harm than good to fix this change. However, what I do need to do is add an option to GSTool to convert Lemmini graphic sets so that they're natively at NeoLemmix size, rather than keeping Lemmini-sized data and resizing them at runtime. This would prevent future issues of this kind. It doesn't seem like NeoLemmix is going to get support for higher-resolution graphics anytime soon, so it's probably safe to do this; the higher-res images can always be re-obtained from the Lemmini source graphic sets if such a thing does happen.

A similar issue happened with zanzindorf's Glacier set when I used the NeoLemmix version - lemmings ended up walking past the exit as of the v1.47n update, so zanzindorf had to fix up the graphic set.

This also happened with some Lix conversions, which I had to fix.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2016, 03:39:10 PM by Wafflem »
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Offline IchoTolot

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Re: SubLems V2.0 released for NeoLemmix Version 1.48!
« Reply #18 on: October 11, 2016, 03:25:17 PM »
Using converted level/tileset needs double checking all the time.  The gap from high to low res results often in 1 pixel mistakes. I can sing a song! :P

Offline Colorful Arty

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Re: SubLems V2.1 released for NeoLemmix Version 1.48!
« Reply #19 on: January 08, 2017, 03:32:13 AM »
Updated to V2.1! Includes:

Backroute fixes for Hellish 8, 9, 12, 13, 17, and 20.
My Youtube channel where I let's play games with family-friendly commentary:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCiRPZ5j87ft_clSRLFCESQA

My Twitch channel: https://www.twitch.tv/colorfularty

My levelpack: SubLems
For New formats NeoLemmix: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4942.0
For Old formats NeoLemmix: http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=2787.0
For SuperLemmini: http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=2704.0

My levelpack: ArtLems
For New formats NeoLemmix: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4583.0

Offline Colorful Arty

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Re: [NeoLemmix] SubLems
« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2017, 08:35:27 PM »
GIANT update to SubLems. Here is a list of all of the updates:

  • SubLems is now compatible with the latest stable release of NeoLemmix
  • A few levels have had their skillsets changed to enforce tougher and/or new solutions
  • Several levels have been moved around, so as to create a better difficulty curve rather than follow the SuperLemmini level order
  • Added more talismans
  • Several music tracks were changed to avoid causing issues in Youtube videos, so now none of the tracks should result in Youtube flagging videos of this pack for any reason
  • Several music tracks had proper loops implemented
  • ALL music tracks have the prefix "sublems" to allow for quick removal of them if you want to delete all of the tracks
  • ALL levels have implemented Autosteel and all manual steel pieces have been deleted
  • Several levels' terrain have been modified slightly to avoid weird pixel gaps whenever possible
  • Several objects are easier to see on levels
My Youtube channel where I let's play games with family-friendly commentary:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCiRPZ5j87ft_clSRLFCESQA

My Twitch channel: https://www.twitch.tv/colorfularty

My levelpack: SubLems
For New formats NeoLemmix: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4942.0
For Old formats NeoLemmix: http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=2787.0
For SuperLemmini: http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=2704.0

My levelpack: ArtLems
For New formats NeoLemmix: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4583.0

Offline Proxima

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Re: [NeoLemmix] SubLems
« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2017, 03:58:53 PM »
Replays and comments on the Retro rating:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] SubLems
« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2017, 09:24:12 PM »
This has to be one of the most entertaining packs out there! :)

First of all, a huge compliment on the obvious artistic ambition which was involved here! :) You really know how to "paint" with level tiles, one of the best examples being the lemmings train, but also atmospheric stuff like Lemming Romance and Lemming Divorce (especially with that sinister change of music :D , those poor two little fellows!) This is something only few packs can offer; most other packs I've played so far quickly proceed to annoying the hell out of me. Coincidentally, SubLems is also superior in that regard, because although the puzzles are challenging, they're not overwhelmingly hard, all the way into the Chaotic and Insane ranks (from which I solved 15/20 each, so far). I haven't solved any of the Hellish levels yet, although I admit I didn't look at more than two, either - the first one of the rank and the Lemmings ark remake. You really seem to know how to save the hardest stuff for last, rather than killing the player's motivation already just halfway through the pack :D .

I noticed some general patterns to your level design, of course, apart from the "painting" style:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I've attached replays of everything I solved to date; some still felt like backroutes, mainly in those instances where I didn't have to use all the provided skills. But oftentimes, in these cases the lines between "backroute" and "unintended alternative solution" are quite blurred ;) .
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Colorful Arty

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Re: [NeoLemmix] SubLems
« Reply #23 on: November 14, 2017, 11:05:51 PM »
Thank you so much for your kind words Strato! I'm so happy you think so highly of my pack. :D

SubLems is indeed a pack trying to have a very gentle difficulty curve to help beginners learn the skills needed for tougher packs. I also loved going crazy with the editor making all sorts of pretty levels, in fact I still do! :D

Keep in mind this pack was made for SuperLemmini. Old SuperLemmini, which did not have frame-stepping, rewinding, or even instant bombers. A few levels unfortunately had to be replaced in the NeoLemmix version, most of them in the Hellish rank. This is why a lot of the levels are incredibly easy for their difficulty position (like Chaotic 1).

Chaotic is where the pack gets hard in SuperLemmini. Insane is where it gets hard in NeoLemmix, and Hellish is where no punches are pulled anymore. The levels are quite difficult, but don't be discouraged; beating that rank will make you a better Lemmings player! :thumbsup:

Now, regarding some of your replays...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

All in all, amazing job! I also love how over a year later, people are still finding unique solutions to my levels, and most of them are just as good as the intended ones!

If you need help on a level, shoot me a PM, and I'll give you a hint. Good luck! :D
My Youtube channel where I let's play games with family-friendly commentary:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCiRPZ5j87ft_clSRLFCESQA

My Twitch channel: https://www.twitch.tv/colorfularty

My levelpack: SubLems
For New formats NeoLemmix: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4942.0
For Old formats NeoLemmix: http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=2787.0
For SuperLemmini: http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=2704.0

My levelpack: ArtLems
For New formats NeoLemmix: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4583.0

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] SubLems
« Reply #24 on: November 15, 2017, 10:04:40 PM »
I guess I'm gonna have to hide all replies to your comments in a huge spoiler :D . Question, did you disable the "dump" option on this pack, to protect your "paintings" (because neither F4 nor F5 worked for me)? I could understand why, it's just a little annoying having to go in and out of the NeoLemmix player again and again to see what levels you are referring to, instead of quickly opening them up in the editor - since I rather remember level titles than numbers ;) .

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I solved some Hellish levels in the meantime, and had some further artworks to admire (that toad face on "Complicated connections" or what it's called, priceless! :D ). I'll try to solve a couple more, though, before I upload replays again.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Colorful Arty

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Re: [NeoLemmix] SubLems
« Reply #25 on: November 15, 2017, 10:16:41 PM »
To answer your questions:

1) Yes, I did disable level/image dumping in my pack, probably because I didn't want people editing the levels in the pack. If it's annoying, I'll enable it in the update.

2) Regarding which destructive skills can cross:
A basher and a digger can cross and both continue
A miner and a digger can cross and both continue
A basher and a miner cannot cross and both continue, nor can they both cancel the other

Glad you like the art on Complex Connections. The only reason the level is that big is because I had to make it pretty (if only the puzzle-parts of the level were there, it would be VERY ugly). Good luck! :thumbsup:
My Youtube channel where I let's play games with family-friendly commentary:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCiRPZ5j87ft_clSRLFCESQA

My Twitch channel: https://www.twitch.tv/colorfularty

My levelpack: SubLems
For New formats NeoLemmix: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4942.0
For Old formats NeoLemmix: http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=2787.0
For SuperLemmini: http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=2704.0

My levelpack: ArtLems
For New formats NeoLemmix: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4583.0

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] SubLems
« Reply #26 on: November 15, 2017, 10:49:55 PM »
Quote
1) Yes, I did disable level/image dumping in my pack, probably because I didn't want people editing the levels in the pack. If it's annoying, I'll enable it in the update.

When you enable image dumping, people won't be able to edit the levels, will they? Then again, they're probably not going to see the level name either then. But at least everyone would be able to connect the level number with a picture in their head, "ah, that one was it!" :D

Or, alternatively, you could just refer to the levels by title in your posts ;) .

Quote
A basher and a miner cannot cross and both continue, nor can they both cancel the other

That's what I was suspecting, because I tried the same thing in one of my new levels, and ended up having to stop the basher :D .

Quote
Glad you like the art on Complex Connections. The only reason the level is that big is because I had to make it pretty (if only the puzzle-parts of the level were there, it would be VERY ugly). Good luck! :thumbsup:

I already solved that one :) . Was nice to see the interactions between the upper and the lower crowd!

Thanks a lot for your explanations. Since there seem to be at least two levels in the Hellish rank where this is relevant, I can now focus my fiddling on bashers and diggers without having to waste time on trying to get bashers and miners crossing each other.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] SubLems
« Reply #27 on: June 30, 2018, 11:14:35 PM »
Okay, so similarly to Lemmings Migration, for the remaining levels, I often had 90% of the solution guessed correctly, and then it was down to some trick I didn't know of that I couldn't finish the solution. I looked to both your and Flopsy's LPs just to find those single pieces, returning to trying to solve the level myself once I had a bit of new information, rather than watching the entire solution right away.

There are still two levels which I couldn't solve, execution-wise
; I also mentioned this on your YouTube videos under my second channel name (Metalvision Song Contest), so don't be confused ;) .

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Some single level remarks; I also believe I've found some backroutes.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

All in all, also for the remainder of the Hellish rank, the pack kept the promise it had established earlier - that of a very linear difficulty curve. Any player can be pretty certain that what's easy is going to come at the beginning, and towards the end, everything gets progressively harder, just like it should be.

I don't know of any other pack so far that manages to get this balance right, while at the same time still being as entertaining and fun to look at, as Sublems! :thumbsup:

The artistic quality of pretty much all of your "landscape" levels, even those you personally have called "ugly" (Complex connections), is beyond questioning, I'd say ;) ! (That toad face on Complex connections is just priceless, in my opinion!)

My main criticism is the same I told Nessy with regards to Lemmings Migration: A lot of levels require the use of rather obscure tricks which are never really introduced to the player before.

In the case of Sublems, this weighs a little heavier than for Lemmings Migration, because most of the time, these levels do a better job - both in a positive and a negative sense - of enforcing said trick, meaning you have no chance at all of solving the level if you don't know about which skills can pass through each other, which destructive skills can be made to continue through use of creative skills, if you don't know about things like the miner turnaround, the flying builder, or also the double-builder turnaround on the very last level (which I don't know yet whether it was intended or not).

This turns those levels into all-or-nothing levels: If you don't know the trick, you don't have the slightest chance. If you know it, that pretty much spoils the entire solution for you. I understand where you were coming from, especially given that this pack was originally created for (Super) Lemmini, and these tricks were hard enough to pull off in the first place, so you oftentimes made the trick the only thing one had to do in a given level.

For ArtLems however, since you're creating that for NeoLemmix right away, I'd suggest doing such trick-centered levels in the early ranks, even advanced tricks as featured in "Ice cream nightmare", where pulling off the trick is all you have to do.

Then, in the later levels, you can just casually throw a bunch of these tricks in, because the player should know now that they are possible, hence look for opportunities to use them, just like they're routinely looking for "where can I climb, where do I have to build" etc. ;)
« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 11:43:24 AM by Strato Incendus »
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Online kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] SubLems
« Reply #28 on: December 11, 2020, 01:15:28 AM »
Ok, I finished the NL Old Formats version of Sublems as well. Replays attached. Since a New Formats version of the pack exists, these replays probably won't be of much interest to anyone, but I'm simply posting my replays for historical purposes, as well as for completeness. I have plans to play every pack, even ones that have both an Old Formats and New Formats, and eventually post my replays to the level pack topic. I already gave feedback for every rank in the New Formats level pack topic, so I'm just going to mention the levels here that are different or the ones that aren't in the New Formats version.

Newbie Rank

All levels in this rank are the same as the New Formats version. The only differences are in the layouts of Newbie 1, Newbie 2, and Newbie 4. Newbie 1 has the exit at the top, while in New Formats the exit is at the bottom. Newbie 2 there's no large wall to climb. Newbie 4 both sides have open areas and the exit out in the open and therefore there's only 1 bomber instead of 3.


Sweet Rank

All levels are the same as in the New Formats version except for Sweet 4 and Sweet 12. Sweet 4 is not found in New Formats, while Sweet 12 has the same layout and title as the New Formats version, except there are some terrain differences: No OWW and no stairs going up near the end.


Scary Rank

All levels are the same as in the New Formats version except for Scary 6 and Scary 7. Scary 6 is just the entire level Lemmings in the Attic upside down, and New Formats doesn't support upside down objects, hence why it's not in it. Scary 7 is similar to a Scary level in the New Formats version except it's in the snow tileset, while the latter is in the marble tileset but the wall has OWA going downwards. Scary 11 is also in the New Formats version, but here it's in the pillar tileset, while the New Formats version is in the crystal tileset. Finally, Scary 17 is also found in the New Formats version, except the latter is in the Chaotic rank instead and is in the crystal tileset instead of the brick tileset.


Chaotic Rank

Same as the previous ranks, except for Chaotic 14, which isn't in the New Formats version. It can be difficult, but it's not that hard at all. There are several levels in this rank where the layout is different from the New Formats version. Chaotic 6 has a repeat in the New Formats version, except here the exit is much closer to the entrance instead of at the bottom right. Chaotic 16 is also found in the New Formats version, except the start uses the right half of the first version, while the right half here is completely new. This level is also found in the Superlemmini version. Chaotic 3's New Format version is found in the Scary rank instead. It can be difficult, but yes, I think the end of Scary is a better position for the level. Chaotic 9's New Format version is in the Insane rank, which I also feel is more appropriate, since it is more difficult than it appears. It's also the level I struggled with for a long time in my LP.


Insane Rank

Same as the previous ranks, except for Insane 7 and Insane 15, which aren't in the New Formats version. Both are found in the Superlemmini version. For the latter, in the Old Formats version there is a preplaced lemming. I tried to use the preplaced lemming initially, but I ended up not using it in my solution. Insane 14's New Formats version is in the Hellish rank, which I'm not sure I agree with, since I solved the level the exact same way as I did the New Formats version. It might be more difficult than it actually is, since I'm certain I backrouted it. Finally, Insane 17's New Formats version is also found in the Hellish rank, which I agree with because the level is quite difficult.


Hellish Rank

Same as the previous ranks, except for Hellish 7, Hellish 10, and Hellish 13, which aren't found in the New Formats version. Hellish 10 is like the precursor to a Artlems Lost Pieces level I played. I didn't have to rewind as much here as I did in the Lost Pieces version, but it's still annoying to do. Hellish 7 is a really nice level, while Hellish 13 I think I backrouted it since I don't think it's supposed to be that easy. Hellish 4's New Formats version is in the Insane rank instead, which I kind of agree with since it's not too hard, but it's not easy either. Hellish 5 is so much easier than the New Formats version, which I needed multiple videos before I finally solved and backrouted it. Also there are spaces in the bars, which definitely makes the New Formats version harder. Hellish 6 the the layout is the same as the New Formats version, except there are less grass walls in the steel area in the middle. Hellish 8 has platformers available, which the New Formats version doesn't, since that just uses the classic 8 skills. Hellish 11 is found in the New Formats version, but the layout is different. Here there's less entrances. Hellish 14 is also found in the New Formats version, but the bomber is not a pickup. I don't think pickups are available in Old Formats. This version seems harder, although I kind of cheesed the level. Finally, Hellish 16 has the same title as the New Formats version, but the layout is drastically different. This one is also found in Superlemmini.


Retro Rank 

The major difference is that the Old Formats NL version has the Retro rank, which is found in the Superlemmini version while the New Formats version doesn't have it. All levels except for Retro 16 are found in the SL version. It's just the level Lost Something? but the difference is that the hidden exit is located somewhere else.  There are also some differences. Retro 3 uses platformers instead of builders, Retro 6 has stackers, walkers, a fencer, and platformers, and finally Retro 14 uses NL skills only. The new solutions aren't that much more interesting for the most part, though the ones that are significantly different are Retro 10 and Retro 20. All other levels in the rank I'm pretty much already familiar with the variant solution of the original Lemmings/ONML level.


Definitely a much quicker solve due to some of the differences in the levels as well as how I didn't LP this, since I LPed the New Formats version. The New Formats version is definitely the better one, so if given the choice definitely play through that one instead of the Old Formats one, as more backroutes are present in it, though there's likely still some in the New Formats version as well. The difficulty curve is definitely better in the New Formats version. 
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0