Author Topic: Akseli's first custom level pack  (Read 7359 times)

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Offline Akseli

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Re: Akseli's first custom level pack
« Reply #30 on: August 28, 2013, 01:00:36 pm »
Recently I really realized how there’s much less interest in level designing in the Lemmings community than I thought.
I think one of the reasons why is backroutes are everywhere and fixing them is annoying. Lemmings is haunted by this forever. That contest that we had was more of a "Find the intended solution" contest. The last level to have their intended solution found is the winner.
Wow, you really think it in that way? :I I'd guess that backroutes mostly show up in hard levels and when skilled players plays them, not so much in more casual levels. Some people still find it discovering challenge solutions and such rather than ruining levels, backroutes can be harder than intended solutions. I myself haven't done backroute fixing too much because I have only one level pack, but I haven't seen it annoying at all. Seeing other people's solutions for my levels is like getting information about my creations, and it's the part of the fun to see how other people approach differently my levels. Sometimes it happens that someone finds even a better solution that you hadn't ever even thought about for your level!

If you mean our level design contest, our main categories were the amount of first version solvers, the most fun level and the best-looking level. The backroute fixing jam was pure fun after that: Those who wanted, they could spend more time finding different solutions for these few levels in the contest. And in the level jam there is only evaluating the levels in categories like most fun, original and best looking. Backroutes aren't related crucially to that jam at all in my opinion.???

I think our community is simply so small that there's so few people interested in level designing. Those long site breaks between forum incarnations of course dropped people out easily. Also, people of the generation of the most hardcore Lemmings fans have probably been already for years in such life periods that they don't have much time for Lemmings anymore.

===============

So far no one has backrouted any level of the third version of the pack! :) You are encouraged to point out about the annoying details in my levels still, so I might think of fixing them. I'm probably going to put this level pack in the Lemmings Level Database soon.


Okay, I think I'm starting to reveal amounts of solvers of my levels.

Level: amount of solvers (amount of intended solution finders)

Sparkle & Glitter: 4 (2)
The Glade of Disbelief: 5 (1)
For Mr. Dodochacalo & Mr. Pieuw: 6 (6)
Winter Solstice: 4 (1)
Feel the Pressure: 4 (2)
Why do you all look so similar?: 4 (0)
In the Core: 4 (0)
Pedantic Lemmings: 4 (2)
Crysilis: 3 (3)
Zygoptera: 1 (1)

I'm especially surprised about Sparkle & Glitter, I really thought that level is clearly the easiest and the worst level in this pack. On the other hand though, Zygoptera seems to be the hardest level as I anticipated.
More revelations maybe to come.

Offline grams88

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Re: Akseli's first custom level pack
« Reply #31 on: August 28, 2013, 01:34:20 pm »
Hi Akseli

You are right our community is small in the area of creating levels and with lemmings in general maybe.  The reason I was mentioning that last part was we kind of know each other in the lemmings community quite well especially if we are playing a random level pack we found on the internet then as soon as we noticed who created them, You will think to yourself I remember him or her. (Small world I guess in that respect)

One thing for sure is usually at the weekends I get a two player game with my dad, I think I beat my dad last time but still fun to this day especially the amount of unusual tactics we have been using for the levels trying to get to the exit.  My dad is 53 years old and he loves it at the weekend getting a game of lemmings as well as getting a relax.
 
I was reading something a while back in relation to backroutes and I thought to myself maybe backroutes are a good thing in relation to the levels as we tend to like a level with so many different solutions.  Now I can understand if the backroute slightly mocks the level that's different as it makes the level so easy.  ???  (Interesting point you have there Akseli about backroutes)

Offline Akseli

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Re: Akseli's first custom level pack
« Reply #32 on: June 29, 2014, 01:34:52 am »
After almost a year from the last solutions I had received, Nepster sent me his ones yesterday and made really impressive work beating entire 7 levels intendedly! He's one with the most beated levels now with Clam, who also has solved 7 levels. Also, this showed me that there's (hopefully) not that many backroutes left, and I got motivated to make last little improvements and fixes for my levels.

Luis' backroute for level 1 is now fixed as well as backroute-prone level 7. Also I made really small appearance improvements for levels 3, 4 and 6. I improved the title of level 6 a bit, too. Now I finally uploaded my level pack to the Lemmings Level Database like I aimed to do many times last year. :--D Here it is at last! Notice that the file in the database is named AkseliPack01, similarly to v1, but this newest pack is more precisely v4. Hopefully this doesn't confuse anyone too much.

As always, I'd like to see your comments and solutions even though if the last post in this topic gets a bit old, for example Nepster hesitated to post in this topic because there wasn't activity for a long time, but I think it's always good and even recommendable to post in this kind of topics if one has something to offer, right? :)

I hope you still enjoy playing my levels! :)

Offline namida

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Re: Akseli's first custom level pack
« Reply #33 on: June 29, 2014, 03:43:27 am »
I started having a go at these - only looked at the first level so far, pretty damn hard! o_O So far I've come up with  two near-solutions - one of them only saves 90%, the other one falls about 10 seconds short of the time limit. I'll keep trying later on today. :)

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EDIT: Found another one that rescues 80% and is short by about 4 seconds >_> wonder if tweaking it might work... EDIT AGAIN: Nope, unless this level requires an insane amount of RR tweaking (or I'm missing an obvious pattern - which is very possible, this is me we're talking about), I'd say that solution is a dead end...

EDIT: FINALLY GOT IT! That was really clever! The far-right part was also an excellent distraction, at first I was trying the block-a-builder-while-he's-building trick (the one used, among others, in Genius 6). Okay, now onto the next...

Okay, for this one, I need to come up with a way to ever so slightly delay the right side lemming a bit longer... unless the solution is something completely different than what I'm thinking... EDIT: OH WOW, I overlooked something SO obvious that saved JUST enough time to make it work. Still, that level required one hell of a lot of fine-tuning, so I'm not sure if my solution might be a backroute...

3rd level was hella difficult to set up, but I realised almost right away *what* to do. Good level though. I should mention though that a major part of it is simply a matter of picking the right lemming out of a crowd (at least in the solution I found); I actually noticed the same thing being a problem in one of the LPIII levels so majorly reduced the number of lemmings to retain the solution while eliminating that factor. (EDIT: Now with the 2nd demo released, since the level I'm speaking of is in there I can reveal what one - I'm talking about "Synergistic Effect" (Dodgy 2 in the 2nd demo). Originally this had 40 lemmings.)
My released level packs:
Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

Offline grams88

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Re: Akseli's first custom level pack
« Reply #34 on: June 30, 2014, 03:23:22 pm »
You can do it Namida.  :thumbsup: I got so near with the (Sparkle & Glitter) but I ended up running out of time hmmm I must give these ones a go again and see if I can master the levels. 

I noticed that Akseli uses all the level sets which I quite like as each level set comes with it's own problems when trying to sort out the tiles.

I'm glad you got your levels up on the website.


Offline namida

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Re: Akseli's first custom level pack
« Reply #35 on: June 30, 2014, 05:13:49 pm »
You can do it Namida.  :thumbsup: I got so near with the (Sparkle & Glitter) but I ended up running out of time hmmm I must give these ones a go again and see if I can master the levels. 

I noticed that Akseli uses all the level sets which I quite like as each level set comes with it's own problems when trying to sort out the tiles.

I'm glad you got your levels up on the website.

I actually passed the first three levels by now. I haven't had a huge look at the 4th one yet.
But I do have to say; my skill in solving levels is not nearly as high as that in making levels. I've completed all the DOS (including ONML, Xmas, H94, Covox and Prima) and Genesis and L3D levels, and I think at one point I completed all the levels in Tribes at least to Silver standard (dunno if I ever got gold) and about half of Revolution, but fan levels are often too hard for me. :P

Anyway, I've had a look at the 4th level now, haven't beaten it though. This one is very hard... The best I can seem to acheive is 60% (in the form of every lemming from one side and a single lemming from the other; I can acheive this with either side being the "every lemming" one, just not both at the same time). One such solution doesn't kill any of the remaining 4, there's just no way to get them to the exit.

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The closest solution I've found requires either an extra builder or an extra basher to work. :( It involves good timing on the left side by mining through at the first spike, bashing the second (with the positioning so it *doesn't* break through to the lower level), then digging through the last one and building across - I managed to time this so that no lemings die). On the right, use a climber to get a worker out, and it's a pretty standard solution there - but I'd need an extra builder or basher to release the crowd.

Other things I've noticed:
* Two destructive skills are definitely needed on the left side; though I'm not entirely sure which two. I'm trying to find an approach using only a miner and a digger (without any builders), if I can find one that gives time to build over the gap to the exit, it leaves me with enough builders to complete the right side fairly easily.
* This need for two destructive skills on the left rules out any "under the water pit" solution, as far as I can tell.
* By extension of there being no under the water solution, since going over it takes 5 builders, that leaves 1 climber, 1 floater, 2 builders, and 1 of each destructive skill for the remainder of the level.
---> Releasing the crowd on the right requires either a basher or a builder.
---> Getting over the gap near the exit (on the rightish side) also requires a builder, though I can see potential ways around crossing this gap altogether.
* I'm not yet entirely sure if the two sides need to work together, though I'm leaning towards yes as the other two multiple-entrance levels so far have required it. (There again, as someone who often uses these kind of distractions myself, I'm not taking anything like that as certain until I solve it. :P )
* If I find any use for the climber on the left side, I can avoid needing one on the right by substituting a builder, though this has to be the last lemming (unless the release rate can be jacked up without interfering with the left).
* It's possible to trap the left-side lemmings between the two spikes on the top "rung", by using a builder and a miner. (Or a builder and a basher, but I think that leaves no way to free the lemmings on the right.)

EDIT: GOT IT!!!! THAT WAS AWESOME!!! :D These are honestly excellent levels!
Also, if I'm not mistaken, by changing the timing I think it should be possible to get 100% with this solution?

EDIT AGAIN: 100% confirmed. Replay attached.


I've had a bit of a go at the 5th; though so far my best attempt gets 86% (edit: 88% with a slight tweak) - 5 lemmings short of the requirement, so I'm probably using a completely wrong approach.
EDIT: 92% with a different approach - still 2 lemmings short. I can probably improve this one to 94%, but not to 96%. :(
My released level packs:
Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

Offline Akseli

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Re: Akseli's first custom level pack
« Reply #36 on: July 02, 2014, 03:45:46 pm »
I updated my pack in the database yesterday, the only change is fixed release rate for level 4 preventing namida's backroute. Links are also updated already, probably nobody even noticed anything. :P

Thanks guys for the comments! :thumbsup:

GOT IT!!!! THAT WAS AWESOME!!! :D These are honestly excellent levels!
This especially was one of the most heart-warming comments I've received, thanks a lot! :) Also, no one else gives that thorough description of their thought process during level solving as you, really nice. :) You've already made really impressive work with these levels!