NeoLemmix (Player: V1.26n-C | Editor: V1.26n-B)

[namida]

Ah. You can't with the text replays. You can hex edit the LRB files to some degree, but it tends to cut off at your modified action (ie: it'll perform up to and including the one you modified, but nothing else afterwards).

There isn't a zoom as such, though it's already zoomed to 3x. Keep in mind that Lemmix moves a pixel per frame, there's no intermediate unrendered frames or anything, so you can acheive a good enough result with frameskip anyway. Likewise, the cursor mechanics are like in the original - it chooses the highest priority lemming (and in some cases, a backup one) within the cursor's range. I don't know that I want to override that, except maybe the direction-specific selection like in WinLemm or Cheapo if enough people think it should be added.

[mobius]

there is no directional selection (right-left) in current Lemmix [major pain]

[Clam]

This is a great initiative! Hopefully it retains the original Lemmings "feel" (if that hasn't been taken over by the glitchiness ) while updating it to the present day. It could even make Lemmings competitive with Lix again


Responses to random points:

Left-facing hatches: These bug me in Lix, to the point that I rarely ever use them. I'd really like to see an arrow built into the hatch design to indicate the direction the lemmings face at the start. (One of Simon's designs even has arrows, but they point both ways.)

One-way walls: Different directions of one-way walls don't provide much interest, unless (and I'm sure this isn't in the plan ) you have 4-way gravity. Then you could have arrows in 4 or even 12 directions, with tunnels allowed at (say) up to 90 degrees from the direction of the arrows.

Direct drop: I think the common view here is that you have to walk into the exit, but there's an interesting alternative: Lemmings touching the exit goal are saved, regardless of anything else. Either works IMHO, as long as it's consistent through the whole game.

Also to the climber-blocker idea, it makes perfect sense!

[namida]

Left-facing hatches: These bug me in Lix, to the point that I avoid them where possible. I'd really like to see an arrow built into the hatch design to indicate the direction the lemmings face at the start. (One of Simon's designs even has arrows, but they point both ways.)

I could look into that at some point. Perhaps one option is to have an option, that can be toggled on and off by the player, to show a little arrow next to entrances indicating their direction. I would also assume that the majority of levels would still end up with right-facing entrances - Cheapo supported left-facing and yet I don't remember seeing many levels that used them.

One-way walls: Different directions of one-way walls don't provide much interest, unless (and I'm sure this isn't in the plan ) you have 4-way gravity. Then you could have arrows in 4 or even 12 directions, with tunnels allowed at (say) up to 90 degrees from the direction of the arrows.

4-way gravity? Hm. An interesting concept, though to be fair, we hardly even saw many levels that made use of two-way gravity back in the Cheapo days, and those that did usually ended up being far too complicated. If there's enough demand, I might look at implementing at least two-way at some point later - in which case, one-way ups would be as valid as one-way downs. (And would be implemented in the form of "a one-way down with Upside Down set becomes a one-way up", saves an object slot and somewhat reduces the chance of that person coming along who's like "ooh, I'mma put these arrows upside down so they confuse the player".)

Direct drop: I think the common view here is that you have to walk into the exit, but there's an interesting alternative: Lemmings touching the exit goal are saved, regardless of anything else. Either works IMHO, as long as it's consistent through the whole game.

I had actually always thought touching it means saved, due to a combination of the direct drop mechanic and Cheapo *actually* working on the "touch it and you're saved" rule. :/

Also to the climber-blocker idea, it makes perfect sense!

Twas ccexplore's idea, not mine. =)

[namida]

If anyone wants to test this so far, here's a download link.

As this is LPII-based, as you might expect, this just has the same levels, music, resources etc as LPII. However - it certianly is NOT to be considered an updated version of LPII; V4/1/3 is still the official, current version. It's just for you to test out the mechanics changes in.

As I've said, I find Cheeky 1 to be a very good level for testing things on, unless you're wanting to test things relating to steel, one-ways or traps.

Note that I haven't adjusted steel areas. The support for pixel-perfect placement of them is there (try it yourself with a hex editor if you like), but as I'm working on mechanics at this point, I haven't adjusted the levels to take advantage of this. Therefore, some of the steel areas might overlap non-steel terrain or not entirely cover the steel blocks (For example, Mild 9, all steel areas extend two pixels further inwards from the steel blocks). However, you most certianly *can* observe the indestructible steel. =)

http://www.mediafire.com/download/o96tzbt392x31ld/NeoLemmixTest1.zip

[namida]

This isn't dead! =D Just fixed a few miner problems...

[namida]

Here's a new test version. Some glitches still aren't fixed; see the first post for info. (Most of the blocker-related glitches were fixed *after* I uploaded this, so don't be surprised if they still occur.)

Let me know if you discover any glitches that are listed as fixed but can still occur under certain circumstances (and what those circumstances are), or any new glitches that have come up. (Already had one - there was a glitch where if you use a bomber on a one-way wall, then bash or mine in the wrong direction and part of what the bomber removed falls under the mask, the mask-covered parts of the one way would spontaneously regenerate; I've fixed this though.) Also, if there's anything that just feels too weird. (Note: Miners look like they're incorrectly positioned on certain frames, though this is purely graphical. Easiest way to address this would be simply editing the sprites to move them one pixel down, but for now, it's a purely-graphical glitch anyway.)

http://www.mediafire.com/download/dv6yun6ecjc7y7b/NeoLemmixTest2.zip

Also note that LPII Bonus Pack-exclusive gimmicks are not yet supported. (Gimmicks from plain LPII work, though, but I have NOT tested them for if any new glitches arise as a result of gimmick-bugfix interactions; feel free to let me know if you find any, as well as glitches with the gimmicks themselves that occur regardless of whether it's this version or plain LPII. There shouldn't be any with the Karoshi, Overflow or Frenzy gimmicks, but the Inalterable Terrain, No Gravity or Hardworkers might incur some...)


EDIT: I've tracked down exactly how Lemmix draws the lemming graphics, so I'm able to fix these without modifying the sprites, just by offsetting the graphic of left-facing builders and walkers by one pixel (it seems other left-facing skills already line up alright). Haven't done miners yet. I figure no one's probably downloaded it yet, so I replaced the download with one with the fixed left-builders and left-walkers. As I said: Miners (graphically) are NOT yet fixed.

[namida]

I've seperated the trigger map into three seperate maps now:

- ObjectMap: For exits, traps, water and fire (LPII one-way fields and secret level triggers also use this one)
- BlockerMap: For blockers only
- SpecialMap: For steel and one-way areas

So, these three can now overlap each other, and no longer interfere with each other. So if you place an exit on steel, the ground below it won't become non-steel; and blockers won't let you magically bash through one-way walls.

As a precaution, blockers still "back up" whatever area they overwrite, however, since blockers still can't overlap (though you can pack them much more tightly together now) and nothing else uses BlockerMap, it should be a redundant measure.

[namida]

Okay, so I've fixed (or in a few cases, decided to ignore) most of them, apart from a few miner graphical issues (that pun never gets old xD). However, the Tricky 5 / Taxing 8 Basher glitch... I've actually never heard of this one apart from on Clam's glitch list so I have no idea how it's meant to work, anyone got a replay or at least a description I can check?

EDIT: The miner graphical problems have been corrected. Basher glitch still unfixed, since I don't even know what it is, let alone how to trigger and test it.

So, here's the first proper release of the engine! Since it's still somewhat of a testing phase, it's still just using LPII content. Please note that the levels have NOT been modified to make optimal use of the new engine (so steel areas may still be slightly out of line, objects aligned to multiple-of-4 Y coordinates, etc); some levels are not even possible under these mechanics (Panic Attack is one example, though it's possible to get 94% on it). It's NOT intended as a new version of LPII; the focus here is the engine*. It DOES, however, support Bonus Pack gimmicks (if you want to try the bonus pack levels on it - just grab the LVL files from the LPII topic and use LookForLVLFiles). Please let me know if you find any problems. =)

* With that being said, I am still considering the possibility of releasing updated versions of LPDOS and LPII that run on this engine at some point. All I'm saying is this isn't the updated release or a beta of such or anything.
And me someday making LPIII using it is a possibility too.

http://www.mediafire.com/download/amq5sup6s0579d9/LemmingsPlusIINeo.zip

And here, a screenshot. Most of you should be able to spot several things that couldn't/wouldn't happen under the original mechanics.

[Wafflem]

• If a lemming trapped inside terrain is made a climber, or a climber becomes trapped in terrain, it repeatedly begins climbing, gets stuck, and falls slightly. It gains one pixel in height each time. Because climbers transitioning to fallers are shifted across slightly, the wall has to be at least 4 pixels wide for this to work.

Because of the removal of this glitch, Cheeky 8, "The Haunted House" is no longer solvable without it. Unless there's an alternate, harder solution. Also, in that same level, it seems that when a building lemming hits a wall they shrug before turning around.

For that same reason, if this glitch removal were applied to my 100% solution in Flight 2 of the LPII Bonus Pack, it would no longer work. If the glitch-free releases become official, would this invalidate my 100% record on the LPII page?

[namida]

No, records would be unaffected. Think of such releases as being more like a console port than an update.

And yes, the shrugging is something I intentionally added, so you have more than a split second to deal with builders that hit their head. It ONLY applies when the unalterable terrain gimmick is in effect.

This is by no means exhaustive (and only for Genius), but off the top of my head, I can confirm that Genius 1, Genius 4, Genius 6, Genius 7, Genius 9 (obviously) and Genius 13 are possible, and Genius 8 is not (can't beat 94%, requires 96%). The method of getting through the one-way wall on Genius 19 still works, but I haven't tested whether the solution as a whole does.

Although I extensively tested Cheeky 8 for if the *mechanics* work like they should, I never actually tested if it's still possible. xD

Cheeky 20 is one I found fun to play under this; the usual solution won't work, but there *is* a solution that does work.

ALSO: Look very closely at that screenshot. You might notice something else I've done that I haven't said anything about. (To clarify, it's just a feature of the updated engine, and shouldn't be taken as a sign of any plans.)

[ccexplore]

However, the Tricky 5 / Taxing 8 Basher glitch... I've actually never heard of this one apart from on Clam's glitch list so I have no idea how it's meant to work, anyone got a replay or at least a description I can check?

The behavior is simply that whenever basher moves forward, it will never move up with the terrain, only horizontally or downwards.  In normal cases this doesn't matter because what's in front of the basher is either flat ground (due to the bashing) or a downward slope.  Tricky 5/Taxing 8 is one of the rare situations where the terrain setup with the "gridwork" terrain in Crystal graphics set, enables a situation where due to this behavior, the basher will not walk up an upwardly sloping terrain, but rather walk "through" it.

IIRC Cheapo does not have this behavior, the bashing moving forward will behave just like a walker I think, the lemming can move up with the terrain.  This is also more interesting in game mechanics with better steel handling, since with "perfect" steel handling it is no longer the case a basher's stroke will always take out everything in front of the basher.

I'll try to get a replay in later today (perhaps there is one already on the challenge thread?).

[ccexplore]

Replay from Taxing 8 attached.

If you do decide to fix this behavior, I think the idea would be to allow the basher to walk up terrain like a walker can, except for steps which would've caused a walker to turn around or need to turn into jumper, in which cases the basher should probably just stop walking and stay in its current position for next stroke.

[namida]

Replay from Taxing 8 attached.

If you do decide to fix this behavior, I think the idea would be to allow the basher to walk up terrain like a walker can, except for steps which would've caused a walker to turn around or need to turn into jumper, in which cases the basher should probably just stop walking and stay in its current position for next stroke.

That's almost exactly what I have done (even without knowing it related to this glitch - it's to make things tidier with non-removable steel), except that rather than stay in position, they stop bashing and turn around. =D It's so that if they encounter a steel or one way (which won't be removed) that they can't move up, they won't move through it instead. (You can probably guess that this needed a bit of special treatment for the Unalterable Terrain gimmick to still work...)

Thanks for the explanation, anyway. Even if the result is I've already fixed it without realising it - at least I know that now. =) (I'll test it for sure once I try importing the original levels into this.)

And yes, I'm not sure if it's identical to a walker but a Cheapo basher can move upwards; one of my levels in either LP2 or LP3 relied on this. I forget the name, but it was a pillar-style one, with several pillars and gaps between them in the middle (slightly remeniscient of The Buildo Station / Buildo Frenzy, but going all the way up to the top of the screen, and wider), and the challenge was to get through them with one basher. It was acheived by dropping builders at exactly the right time to bridge the gaps and let the basher cross. (EDIT: "The Way Across" maybe? That name does ring a bell anyway...)

[ccexplore]

The reason I explicitly suggest "stay put but still continue bashing if too high a step to walk up directly" as oppose to "stop bashing and turn around" is that, while the latter certainly makes sense in case of steel/OWW (although in those cases wouldn't the stopping have come from the handling of steel/OWW anyway?), I'm not sure that it makes sense is intuitive when the too-high-to-step-up terrain in front is just normal, bashable terrain.  It can lead to situations where depending on the precise location the lemming has started bashing from, the lemming may end up either continuing to bash or stop bashing, as it starts to approach the unwalkable step-up.  [edit: change wording to "intuitive" and acknowledge that there exist other behaviors anyway in lemmings that are arguably unintuitive]

With all that said, it is true that in practice, for the non-steel/OWW cases, you likely need fairly specific terrain setup to enable the "special case" to begin with, so for "normal levels" it probably won't even be encountered, and in rare case when it can be used in a level for unexpected alternate solutions, it is likely not too hard to fix by minor modifications to the level.