Level Review--Lemmings Revolution

[mobius]

11-7 Don't Let Them Out!

50 Lemmings, save 40
5:00

2 climbers, 2 floaters  5 bombers, blockers and builders, 1 basher, miner and digger.

Good: This level is quite notorious for me and super tough as well. This one remained unsolved for a long time and I saw that Kaywhyn also had difficulty with it. The apparently intended puzzle of 'going the backway' or working backrwards and getting around the weasels (or killing the weasels) AND

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

climb bombing, a trick used rarely in this game

AND containing the crowd; there is a lot going on, and a lot to figure out. I'd say it's one of the hardest in the game.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

and the solution of having the weasels walk into the saw is pretty clever imo

Bad:
1) The title is silly as whichever solution you do, you absolutely have to 'let them weasels out'.
2) There's a pool up top that drains immediately for no reason then never refills. Until you figure this out you might worry that one of the switches refills it. There's also some other minor glitchy stuff like the way the bottom pool is partially walk-overable.
3) the switch/door near the beginning is completely pointless.
4) this level has a 50-50 fall near the beginning
5) Until Kaywhyn's LP demonstrated the 'intended' solution I honestly never knew about it. It is as mentioned above. There's some annoying timing on getting the weasels to be facing the right way to kill them, the bottoms ones that is. And bomber timing. There's another new trap that only appears in this level but fortunately isn't a big deal, but makes no sound.
But then of course there is the horrible backroute of bashing/building under the one-way-wall. This solution still isn't easy, mind you but it's the only one I knew about, and also the one in pirohiko's LP.
6) The timer is way too tight and overall the intended solution seems to be way too precise, if Kaywhyn's almost 2 hour long attempt is any indication.

Despite the flaws; this level actually inspired a lot of my custom content over the years

[LemSteven]

^ I'm glad you mentioned the intended solution to "Don't Let Them Out!"  I love the overall idea, but the execution is absolutely insane.  I spent several hours getting it to work, and most of that time was spent optimizing the solution to get it within the time limit.  When a 5-minute time limit ends up coming down to the last few seconds, it's probably too tight.

11-8: Speedy Gonzalez
Lemmings: 53 (3 entrances)
Save: 52
Release Rate: 99/1/99
Time: 4:00
Skills: 1 floater, 1 bomber, 2 blockers, 3 builders, 1 miner

Good: You have to strategically place a blocker on the retractable floor so that he can be released and saved later.  I also like the way the splatform for the crowd doubles as a means to reach the critical switch to drain the water tank.

Bad: Although the theme has been used on prior levels, I think the level would be more interesting if "Speedy Gonzalez" had to race to catch the crowd before they fell.  Instead, you're given a blocker/bomber to delay the crowd as long as necessary.  I'll also mention that an unnecessary amount of precision is required for several skill assignments, most notably the final miner.

[kaywhyn]

^ Hey LemSteven, thanks for continuing where the review last left off. It can definitely be finished off, particularly since there aren't many levels remaining. Most importantly, can this be done before 2022 is over? Assuming reviews by the same person don't happen until after at least 48 hours has passed, and with 19 levels left to review, then yea, it can theoretically be done, with about a few weeks of the year remaining

I will have to agree with this here:

Bad: Although the theme has been used on prior levels, I think the level would be more interesting if "Speedy Gonzalez" had to race to catch the crowd before they fell.  Instead, you're given a blocker/bomber to delay the crowd as long as necessary.

I think I even mentioned it in my LP too that it would had been more satisfying to essentially beat the crowd there with making the splatform in time while keeping the crowd moving rather than holding them back with the blocker. Too bad the walk isn't long enough for it to work even without a blocker provided, but the creators can easily remedy that by extending the walkway and making it longer for the top left entrance.

^ I'm glad you mentioned the intended solution to "Don't Let Them Out!"  I love the overall idea, but the execution is absolutely insane.  I spent several hours getting it to work, and most of that time was spent optimizing the solution to get it within the time limit.  When a 5-minute time limit ends up coming down to the last few seconds, it's probably too tight.

Agreed, it was very frustrating, given that in my LP it took me nearly 2 hours before I finally succeeded! In addition, I occasionally ran into the annoying thing of sometimes lemmings surviving while other times going splat at a certain height where there's a 50:50 chance of it triggering, similar to "Tanks a lot," which seems to be the level most players will commonly encounter it, depending on if it's patched up or not.

11-9: Goonies

Lemmings: 50

Save: 48

Time: 3:45

Release Rate: 50

Skills: 10-of-everything

Good: Nice breather level with multiple solutions. Fairly easy to save everyone even though you're allowed to lose up to 2.

Bad: In my solution at least, you can avoid pretty much most of the map and simply build to get over the steel wall which separates the entrance from the balloon, float down the other side, and make a splatform for the others. There's more than enough builders to do both. As a result, I have absolutely no idea as to what the intended route could be. However, given that it's an X-of-everything level, most of the time such levels are open-ended anyway. So, it seems that allowing this bad shortcut was intentional on the makers' part. Along with this, quite easy for its position this very late into the game.

[LemSteven]

11-10: Lemming be thy name...
Lemmings: 60 (2 entrances)
Save: 51
Release Rate: 30/99
Time: 5:00
Skills: 2 climbers, 2 floaters, 9 bombers, 6 blockers, 1 builder, 2 miners

Good: The level looks daunting at first, with several obstacles to traverse and a limited skill supply.  It appears that blockers and/or bombers will be needed in several places, requiring careful management of the ten worker lemmings.

Bad: Once you realize that you only need to save one of the ten worker lemmings, the solution becomes almost trivial.  You can send two athletes to do all of the work without worrying about creating a suitable route for the others.

[kaywhyn]

11-11: 'Tanks' a Lot

Lemmings: 76

Save: 76

Time: 4 minutes

Release Rate: Water lemming hatch - 99, Lone regular lemming hatch - 50

Skills: 1 climber, 1 floater, 1 bomber, 0 blockers, 5 builders, 1 basher, 1 miner, 1 digger

Good: Nice puzzle involving the lone regular lemming who needs to push the lever to create an elevator/lift for the water lemmings who are stuck at the bottom of a very deep tank so they can reach the balloon once the tank fills up with water

Bad: Unlike "The High Dive," where in some copies the game will crash, this is the other problematic level where players will likely encounter the extremely annoying bug of there being a 50:50 chance of some water lemmings splatting and the rest surviving in the unpatched version. It can even happen in the patched up version of the level, although in my LP sometimes one went splat while the others survived. I think it most likely will trigger off if you fast forward while the water lemmings are still coming out of the entrance, but I'm not certain. It might even be as a result of patching up the game so that "The High Dive" loads correctly where the critical height of there being a 50:50 chance of splatting/not splatting gets changed too, but again not certain here.

Also, both levels are not that hard

[mobius]

ah someone finally revived it.

11-12 Two Laps Finale

50 Lemmings, save all
6:15

1 floater, bomber and blocker. 13 builders, 1 miner


Good:
After a string of backroutes and way too easy levels finally, a decent challenge. The layout is very sparse and intimidating. Lots of large gaps to cover and deadly falls. With a few teleporters, retractable walls and the balloon way up high, it's really not at all clear which way to go. Also one of the few levels in the game to require you to free a blocker with skills.

Bad:
Very builder heavy. I get the feeling there are far more routes than the creators intended. Teleporter directions can get annoying in this level, much like Walk the plank or join the crew. Pressing the switch is not necessary.
Freeing the blocker with a miner or a staircase (the intended route?) is much harder than it needs to be. Of course you can just bomb glitch them free. Oddly precise (but not tight I don't think) time limit.

---

about "Goonies":
Part of me actually wonders if they forgot this game wraps around horizontally...
Or if perhaps; the people designing this level (and others) were designing before they even planned the game to wrap horizontally... [this is actually a very real possibility, as I probably mentioned before in this thread; this game went through development hell]

[LemSteven]

Regarding Two Laps Finale, I'm still not sure what the intended solution to that level is.  When I first solved the level, I built a splatform for the crowd, entered the teleporter, and built directly to the exit from the right side, avoiding the switch so that the retractable wall stays closed and turns the crowd to the left.  That seems like a backroute, since the little arrow at the top of the level suggests you should approach the exit from the left side, but all of my attempts to find a solution that actually uses the whole level end up running out of builders.

11-13: The Diving Board
Lemmings: 100 (50 regular lemmings and 50 water lemmings)
Save: 98
Release Rate: 99 (regular lemmings), 40 (water lemmings)
Time: 5 minutes
Skills: 1 climber, 1 bomber, 2 blockers, 4 builders, 1 basher

Good: The level lives up to its name, since the water lemmings have to drop off a long wooden plank into a water tank.  You can't let the regular lemmings just walk to the exit, since one of them has to build up to the switch to fill the water tank.  The level also makes good use of the cylindrical level format; both the water lemmings and the "hero" regular lemming end up making one complete revolution around the level.

Bad: It's way too easy for its position in the game.  It's also annoying that you have to block right next to a retractable wall, which ends up being closed later on.  That defeats the purpose of having the retractable wall there in the first place.

[mobius]

12-1 Green with Envy

15 Lemmings save all (5 lemmings of each: normal, water and acid, in separate hatches)
10:00

50 of each skill

Good: despite the enormous skillset this level still poses a decent and fun/unique challenge. While most levels the challenge is where/how to use the skills, this level the challenge lies totally in mapping out a path and how to divide out the three different types of lemmings. I think the essentially infinite skillset works well here, allowing a lot of leeway in the solution without spoiling anything. It's one of my favorites.

Bad: The only downside I can think of is the backroute; a glitch around the timed door directly under the starting area allows everyone to pass through it. Thankfully this isn't something I found when I played it myself.

-The only level I'm aware of with a different teleporter system. Most of the game teleporters are connected in pairs. A-B, C-D etc. Where as in this level there are... 4(?) total, someone correct me if I'm wrong, and 3 all connect to the one by the balloon. [re-entering the balloon teleporter takes you to one of the others, I forget which) this might be a tad confusing for a new player but given the layout of the level it's pretty easy to reason this before hand.

-random note: the massive skillset means this is a good level to test the game out, it's one I used frequently when exploring the many glitches in the game.

[kaywhyn]

Nice job gentlemen, we're now on the final column of levels! 13 levels to go.

12-2: Anger. Love. Hate

Lemmings: 50

Save: 40

Time: 5 minutes

Release Rate: 30

Skills: 20 climbers, 20 floaters, 20 bombers, 20 builders

Good: Nice puzzle with the main challenge figuring out how to get to the lever at the bottom on the other side of the steel wall

Bad: Why the heck are you allowed up to 10 losses here? Other than the most difficult part of the level being to get a lemming to push the lever, it's still easy for this very late in the game despite only 4 skill types available.

[mobius]

12-3 All in
51 lemmings save all
5:00

1 climber, 1 floater 5 bashers, 5 builders, 1 miner and 1 digger

Good: Another interesting challenge of having one lemming separated from the rest of the crowd and setting up a safe path.

Bad: While this level isn't bad imo it's kind of meh, not super interesting with much unique going on. Also too easy for at the end of the game. It's a little bit obvious exactly what you need to do. Another teleporter that's kind of useless. [could've just put the balloon down there...]

[kaywhyn]

12-4: LEMTRIS

Lemmings: 50

Save: 50

Time: 3 minutes

Release Rate: From left to right, 1, 39, 18, 5 (none can be changed)

Skills: 50 floaters

Good: The game takes an interesting twist with this level by featuring a unique gimmick in that you cannot pause on this level. If you attempt to do so, you will hear a creepy laugh, though honestly I could had sworn the laugh was much scarier sounding than this. At least, when I first reached this level years ago, I was taken by surprise not only by not being able to pause but by the laugh. It's said to be the laugh of a weasel. Essentially, this level is the equivalent of "Floater Frenzy" that you can find in early versions of namida's Lemmings Plus 2 pack when the frenzy gimmick used to exist in NL, except in his pack you are allowed many losses as I think it would had been way too frustrating otherwise to try and save everyone or as much as you can with quick reflexes.

Bad: Even without the ability to pause, this is still quite an easy level for this late in the game, helped by the fact that the RR of each entrance is different, the highest being 39. However, why those particular RR's? Seems very arbitrary values. If anything, the developers should had made each one with 99RR and adjust the save requirement accordingly, like maybe saving a maximum of half of the 50 with 25? Like make it more challenging in some way. Though keep in mind that unlike NL, in Lemmings Revolution the RR system is different, where each entrance acts independently of one another in relation to the RR's. If there are multiple entrances with each 99RR, then there won't be any spacing in the release of the lemmings from any entrance and all lemmings from each entrance will be released at the exact same time.

[LemSteven]

12-5: No clues ... hee hee hee hee!
Lemmings: 50
Save: 40
Release Rate: 30
Time: 10 minutes
Skills: 2 climbers, 10 bombers, 10 blockers, 20 builders, 2 bashers, 10 miners, 10 diggers

Good: I love the trick to this level.  It seems impossible at first glance, as there is no way (without glitches) to get a lemming safely down to the laser gate that opens the path to the exit.  It turns out that those pesky weasels guarding the area before the exit are the key to completing the level.  Once you figure that out, creating a safe path for the weasels is far from trivial, especially if you're trying for 100%.

Bad: Creating the path for the weasels can easily become a builder-fest, reminiscent of some of the builder-heavy levels in the original Lemmings.  Also, it's possible to get a lemming down the laser gate by making a lemming a bomber so that he Oh-no's right before he splats, and then making him build before he explodes.  That defeats the concept of using the weasels, but one can argue that it's a flaw in the game mechanics rather than the level itself.

[mobius]

^^Interesting! I had always thought the "clever" solution was to

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

just sacrifice a lemming (took me a while to figure out he dies but still trips the gate).

12-6 Last One to the Top.....

30 Lemmings Save 29
5:00

10 of each skill

Good: Similar to Green With Envy you get a arbitrary skillset (though much reduced) and the puzzle relies instead on navigating the complex level, and some timing. There are weasels continually closing and opening the doors to the exit area and there's a shredder below to avoid. There's essentially two separate laser gates to get to. I like how the level looks and feels very intimidating at first. Lots of craziness going on.

Bad:
Or you can backroute it by just building over the doors. [though this can be more difficult and finnicky than it appears] There's also a weird staircase near the bottom from the balloon area that is deceiving, lemmings can walk down it but not up; making the large retractable wall down there also deceiving, at least to what its supposed to do.

I've never had a weasel be set free and not die from the shredders but that seems like a remote possibility.

[kaywhyn]

@Lemsteven Aww, I wanted to review 12-5, but well, that's my fault for being too slow, as well as not speaking up about that. There is something I wanted to add, and that is IMO I probably consider it the best level in the entire game, especially as it uses something very unique, where the enemy that is usually very well-known for killing the Lemmings can actually be super helpful. Other than that, I agree with every point you brought up in your review of the level.

@mobius Not sure what you mean in the spoiler, as the fall apparently is not survivable even though it looks like it's kind of borderline of survival and splatting. Unless you mean the glitch of saving a bomber?

I've never had a weasel be set free and not die from the shredders but that seems like a remote possibility.

It simply kills the weasel (see my LP). Essentially, think of them as the equivalent of zombies in NL, where they're moving traps and subject to the same dying to traps like Lemmings, although I guess technically they're more like classic zombies than non-classic, since they can interact with objects (laser gates, levers, etc), while the latter cannot. In addition, another difference is that weasels are always permanent floaters.

Also meant to review this level yesterday and hence make it three levels in a row reviewed, but that went over my head

12-7: The Long and Winding Road

Lemmings: 20

Save: 5

Time: 5 minutes

Release Rate: 10

Skills: 10 of everything

Good: Looks long and difficult for a level where you're free to solve it any way you like due to being an X-of-everything. However,

Bad: Assuming that you're supposed to take a long way, you actually don't need to, as it's possible to shortcut and brute force your way into the exit area just by going a little bit to the right of the starting platform before building to the left and hacking your way into the wall to get to the balloon. Even if the solution in my LP didn't work, you could always float a worker down and simply build your way up so that you're lower and don't have to worry about bashing/mining into steel when destroying the wall before the exit. So much for the "long and winding road" indeed

As such, I have no idea what the intended solution is supposed to be, but from the looks of the level, it likely involves the gravity pads. Also supposedly the intended way is going to be much harder to pull off, although you have 10 of every skill, so probably not.

Halfway through the 12th and final column of levels now!      

[mobius]

It's perfectly fine with me if you want to add more comments to any level; I've been doing that after all

@Lemsteven Aww, I wanted to review 12-5, but well, that's my fault for being too slow, as well as not speaking up about that. There is something I wanted to add, and that is IMO I probably consider it the best level in the entire game, especially as it uses something very unique, where the enemy that is usually very well-known for killing the Lemmings can actually be super helpful. Other than that, I agree with every point you brought up in your review of the level.

@mobius Not sure what you mean in the spoiler, as the fall apparently is not survivable even though it looks like it's kind of borderline of survival and splatting. Unless you mean the glitch of saving a bomber?

Agreed; this is also one of my favorites.

no I was able to solve the level before even knowing about the glitch or LemSteven's solution

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Just build up to a spot directly but high above the laser gate then let the builder fall and die. He splats but his dying body still trips the gate and opens the door to the exit. You still have to deal with the weasels but I usually lead them to the water. 

And correct the fall from the tall block, I'm pretty sure, is not 50-50 splat-live. its 100% splat.

I've never had a weasel be set free and not die from the shredders but that seems like a remote possibility.

It simply kills the weasel (see my LP). Essentially, think of them as the equivalent of zombies in NL, where they're moving traps and subject to the same dying to traps like Lemmings, although I guess technically they're more like classic zombies than non-classic, since they can interact with objects (laser gates, levers, etc), while the latter cannot. In addition, another difference is that weasels are always permanent floaters.

Oh yeah I understand. No I meant how the "device" intended to kill the weasels is this whacky super fast shredders. Occasionally I've seen a weasel gets very near the ground before getting deaded. I just wonder if the timing could ever be just so to actually let one escape.

12-7: The Long and Winding Road

Oh interesting, maybe I don't remember but I hadn't thought of this level as being backrouted; and maybe there is actually a hard/long roundabout solution. I thought it was just *super* misplaced. I want to boot up the game now and take a look at this level... but I don't feel like playing through the whole damn game just to do that

I'll wait just a bit before reviewing again to give someone else a chance. [I already have reviews of the rest of the game pre-written up.... because I use my time wisely.