Lix Community Level Set

[ccexplore]

Darn, still a backroute, only the middle section matches (like your previous backroutes).

That move you used was unexpected, I wouldn't have imagined it to ever work and am actually still not quite sure why it works, is it possibly a glitch?

I have to think about how to fix this one or if it's even really possible to fix.  Has geoo finally defeated the quest to backroute-proof Brickout for good?!?  Stay tuned......

[geoo]

The move makes sense to me with what I know about the physics, and it needs a very precise setup.
So when a lix is stuck in terrain, i.e. all of the 13 pixels above foot position in front of her are solid, she won't climb out, no matter if climber or not, and turn around instead. Here, we set the cube so the lix is low enough that this applies when facing right. However the lix is stuck in the border of the cube due to its placement, so this doesn't apply when facing left, and thus the lix can walk out to the left.

[ccexplore]

Oh okay.  I was confused because visually it looks rather like the case where a builder builds into a wall and turn around, but I thought platformers don't behave like that so I was wondering.

Actually for better or worse, your move (now that I understand what is happening) is not all that far off from the one I'm using in my solution, and honestly your method is more clever in some ways.   So I'm less concerned about that part of the level now, but for B10 I still need to address another part of the level that you have handled too conventionally (I believe it was an unfortunate side effect of some terrain changes I made to deal with other backroutes, so it'll be tricky to deal with like all previous cases with this level apparently ).  Once I address that part, I think (well, more like hope) the skill usage requirement will end up enforcing the use of my method on the right side of the level as well anyway.  And then at a later point I'm gonna have to scrap all that and have some hard thoughts as to what sorts of solutions the community-set version of the level should feature......

Anyway, the more general behavior of stuck climbers not climbing out is not something I'd consider a glitch at all, if anything the current Lix behavior is probably more intuitive compare with how the original Lemmings game mechanics behave.  There is also precedent for this sort of behavior in Lemmings 2 with the rock climber.  (That said, I'm quite open to hear about your thoughts and opinion around this.)

[geoo]

Here's a remake of Devil's Right Hand. Akseli's solution doesn't work anymore, however the other two solutions still do. I made the one-way gadget 2 steps high instead of one, so it's more clear to the player what's going on there. It's also behaviour used in a later level, so it's good to have it put on display somewhere. It's possible to get the wrong way though a one-way gadget with two bashers, but I think this doesn't open up new backroutes.
Nepster: Tell me if you like this version of the level, or just go ahead and make changes if you don't.

ccexplore: The trick can't be used if you remove the slope that goes down to the exit, as you have to make sure that the following lix will be able to walk over the cube. It's actually possible to do a similar maneuver at the top before the exit, and use the resulting platformer brick to start on platforming to the left, but then the platform towards the left ends up too high, and the miner stops midway in the rectangular hole. The second issue here is that the lix die in the braziers when trying to walk over the cube.

[Nepster]

Good work with the remake of Devil's Right Hand! Unfortunately I already found a backroute (though it's not a trivial one, cf. attachment). This is fixed in V2 (along with minor stylistic changes).
I noticed that one can get through the one-way wall in the wrong direction using one basher and one builder. I will have to check during the next days, that this doesn't allow for new backroutes.
I didn't notice such a one-way gadget in any other level. To which one are you referring?

[geoo]

Oh, so the basher doesn't actually hit against the thin layer of steel at the sides of the walls (preventing that was why I put them there in the first place). Making the layer of steel thicker should solve this issue, making it impossible to pass through a wall just with a builder and a basher. I'd suggest just doing that.

I don't want to exhibit this particular one-way gadget for a later level, but rather the behaviour that bashers can actually move downwards. There are other levels using one-way gadgets (e.g. Exit Stage Right), but they don't use this basher behaviour.

[geoo]

Hmm, actually that basher not hitting steel scenario exhibited in your level is kinda weird. It seems like the basher only checks for steel in the later frames, thus ignoring the steel even though if it was terrain it would remove it. I'm gonna talk to Simon to see whether this behaviour is really desirable, or should be changed (the physics change would basically fix the one-way gadget).


I talked to mobius for a bit, and here's a new update with a couple of changes to his levels. For Over my Head, I can't decide which version is best. I attached three versions, what do you people think? Also, I'm not sold on Elixir/Subversive activities, both levels have things that I like and things that I don't like. So I tried to make a new version that takes the good aspects from both, what do you think about this version?

Changed (and/or renamed):
divisionoflabor.txt (no time limit)
fiveforfighting.txt (backroute fix)
hardtoport.txt (mobius' version of the backroute fix)
agiantleapforlixkind.txt -> thefinalsacrifice.txt
dilemma.txt -> passingengagement.txt
lixesinmotion2.txt -> lixesinmotion.txt (backroute fix, now has mobius' intended route)
planb.txt -> overthehump.txt (new version with different solution)
stilllife.txt -> everywhichway.txt (backroute fix)

New:
absolutezero.txt
thelixwhojaped.txt
dontleavemehanging.txt

Removed:
lixesinmotion1.txt

[Nepster]

No new version for Devil's Right Hand because one needs 6 pixels (low-res) of steel to remove the steel-basher behaviour. While this is easily done for the left and the middle "one-way wall", one doesn't have the space at the right one. So I will wait for now, until it is clear whether a change in the game mechanics will solve this problem.

Some solutions (and backroutes) for the updated levels:
Hard to port: A new backroute appeared, but is easily fixed by enlarging the steel at the exit platform.
Lixes in motion: At the moment there is a backroute saving 20/20. But the fix for "stopping diggers by assigning miners" should also remove this one.
No more heroes: A new try with this one: Saving 29/30 but I need all the time down to the last frame.
Elixir (from the last post): I like my solution for this new version, but it has only passing similarities with my previous solutions. Nevertheless I have two suggestions: To make the fall down from the red blocks survivable needs rather precise bomber timing. Perhaps one can add a little step on the blue blocks at the bottom? Secondly one could perhaps move the sawblade into the gap between the exit and the metal block? As it is right now, its trigger area reaches exactly one pixel over the left edge of the metal block, which is a priori not clear at all. And it still allows (non-successful) attempts like the one I attached.
Over my Head: I like the solution to OmH2 and OmH3 better than the one to OmH1. OmH3 is rather hard on timing, while in OmH2 one has a (mostly) unneccessary time limit and one needs to start the miner right after the lix falls out of the hatch. If it was my decision (which it isn't), I would take OmH2, remove the time limit and move the big step about three bricks to the right. (For all these remarks, I assume of course that my solution is the intended one)

[geoo]

I updated three levels to fix your backroutes:
hardtoport.txt (Steel added)
lixesinmotion.txt (Your solution is actually kinda nifty. I set the climber count set to 10 nevertheless, as I just saw in the replay of mobius' intended solution the climber count in the level is actually 10.)
thelixwhojaped.txt (Thicker steel.)

No More Heroes: Now that's an interesting one, nice idea. I'll have to ask Steve if he wants this removed. Either way, there's also a solution that doesn't enter the exit from the right, if you want to try.
Elixir: Your second solution is intended, and the first one is just a variation of it. I put the saw blade there so you can't jump out from the bomber hole onto the steel piece (that'd allow for a backroute). Attached is a version that replaces them with a pair of saw blades left and right. Yeah I guess it doesn't resemble the two other versions of the levels too much, it uses the falling bomber from one and going over the exit from the other, but that's it. Either way, I prefer it over the two.
Over My Head: Actually the timing in OmH3 is just as easy as before (you have enough leeway that you don't even need the basher), you just have to place the digger right. I think I could change OmH3 in such a way that with the digger placement that you tried it fails. The intended solution doesn't actually starts mining on the starting level, and the way it's done it gives your even a little more leeway. The reason I prefer OmH3 over OmH2 is that with the intermediate ledge there are more things you can try now, namely mining from the lower level. So I think maybe I should use OmH3, but modified in such a way that you don't have enough leeway if you dig in the wrong spot, by e.g. making the right part of the platform also only 3 bricks high instead of 5. What do you think.


Before that, I had a bigger update, including the last remaining levels, and the first wave of scrapping levels. I updated this post with a status update about scrapping levels: http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=593.msg20328#msg20328
16 more to go (or maybe a few more in case we need space for tailor-made levels at the beginning to smoothen the difficulty curve), any objections so far?

Removed:
almostincommensurable.txt
alonglongwaytofall.txt
catoutofthebag.txt
criticalproc.txt
crosshairs.txt
cuberreplacement1.txt
danceswithlixes.txt
goinground.txt
grounddigging.txt
itstimetoclimb.txt
procman.txt
riddlemethis.txt
soclose.txt
suicideattack.txt
switchback.txt
thecorridor.txt
toocloseforcomfort.txt
wellmeetagain.txt

Renamed:
cuberreplacement2.txt -> cuberreplacement.txt

New:
bashingandbuilding.txt
brickout.txt
devilsrighthand.txt
heedthetrafficlight.txt
strokeat.txt

[Nepster]

Over my Head: Please ignore the comments in my previous post. When I wrote it, I was only aware of solutions that are more complicated than necessary.
Lix Who Japed: New solution, though it's likely another backroute.
Devil's Right Hand: Backroute with steel-bashing behaviour (at the right one-way gadget) confirmed.

[Proxima]

Before that, I had a bigger update, including the last remaining levels, and the first wave of scrapping levels. I updated this post with a status update about scrapping levels: http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=593.msg20328#msg20328
16 more to go (or maybe a few more in case we need space for tailor-made levels at the beginning to smoothen the difficulty curve), any objections so far?

Well, naturally I'm sad about "Dances with Lixes", which I like a lot, but I already made that known to you, and in the end it's your decision.

I do still have three more levels I would like to contribute, if I have time to finish building them -- I won't burden the list with more than that when we're trying to cut down. Now it looks like it's going to be pretty tricky    given that there aren't that many levels left that we all agree are okay to go. Of the ones on your "Inclined to scrap (11)" list, I'm okay with scrapping Leap of the Locust, Almighty Sawblade, Slippery Pete, Confusing Fractals, Wrong way, Escape the Pit -- and Diggin' the Air, which I do like, but it's available in Pieuw's level set anyway so it's not quite so much of a loss. (Perhaps, for that reason, we could take out all of Pieuw's and Martin Z's levels? But some of them are very good, so maybe that's a bit drastic.)

I'll have another look through all the levels mentioned in your long post and comment on them, if that would help. "A Soulful Bounding Leap" does indeed have multiple solutions. It was mobius' level, but with his permission I took it over and tried to fix it, with my own solution in mind (I don't know what his original intended solution was). I did at least manage to remove some trivial solutions. I think it's an okay puzzle now, and we don't have very many wraparound levels, but it's not entirely successful, so I don't mind if you want to remove it.

I would still prefer Changing of the Guards 2 to be removed.

[mobius]

"another funeral" is an alternate version of 3-1 or Three's company. It may involve a little bit of tricky timing. It's titled so as an allusion to the multiple levels titled "Four lemmings and a funeral" [this now has 4 lemmings]. I don't want this as separate to Three's Company. Pick one or the other.

French Connection is an old level of mine that I never got around to redoing.
I recommend replacing this one for.........The Last Mile? Idk, personally I just don't find that level all that interesting now.

edit: I also have intended replays for both of these
------

I said this before but when I first began remaking Pieuw's levels I didn't know about all of them and NOW, looking back I think I made some poor choices as there are better levels of his to remake. However/also on the line of reasoning that Proxima said; that he's got his own big pack I also would not be opposed to removing all of those. I don't know about Martin Z's tho, his pack is only a mini pack of 30 levels and not as well known [ok maybe not] but not as recent.
What I mean is... [idk. I meant to write more but forget whatever it was]

I say this mainly because there are still some levels of other more obscure people I'd like to remake.. however, everytime I say this then look at the levels I see one-way walls.
I probably won't be making many more new levels, if any.

[geoo]

Note: In order to play the update to Dances with Lixes and the (wip) version of Stroke at Retirement Age, you have to download the new cactus terrain, you can get it here: http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=1002.msg20541#new

There's also a hint system in Lix so you can add hints to your levels. Most levels don't have hints yet, I only have a list of hints from Proxima so far. While not a must, please consider adding hints to your levels! Send them to me, preferred format: Take this spread sheet from https://github.com/geoo89/lixlfpack/blob/gh-pages/lixlfpack.xls?raw=true and in the 4 tiny columns at the end there's space for 4 hints. At the end I will write a script to add the hints into the levels.

Solution to 'Another Funeral' attached.

Comments to Nepster:
Lix Who Japed: Different from the intended route, but similar and just as interesting.
Devil's Right Hand: The required physics change to eliminate the backroute is very likely to happen.

Notes after some talk over IRC:
Dances with Lixes: is coming back in a slightly adjusted version (attached).
Lixology: Has a backroute and cuber placement is annoying, and uses my old Holey Mountain design which I don't like (though Proxima does). Attached is my suggested replacement 'Breackout' (It's based on an old version of Brickout, which the hints would refer to and give some trivia. Also Breackout anagrams to Backroute). Comments welcome.
CotG1 will be renamed to CotG. As a compromise CotG2 will be renamed to something entirely different, and changed to resemble CotG exactly except for the central ball moved down by 8 pixels.

I do still have three more levels I would like to contribute, if I have time to finish building them -- I won't burden the list with more than that when we're trying to cut down. Now it looks like it's going to be pretty tricky    given that there aren't that many levels left that we all agree are okay to go. Of the ones on your "Inclined to scrap (11)" list, I'm okay with scrapping Leap of the Locust, Almighty Sawblade, Slippery Pete, Confusing Fractals, Wrong way, Escape the Pit -- and Diggin' the Air, which I do like, but it's available in Pieuw's level set anyway so it's not quite so much of a loss. (Perhaps, for that reason, we could take out all of Pieuw's and Martin Z's levels? But some of them are very good, so maybe that's a bit drastic.)

Hmm, if they are in a complete level set, I supposed removing Pieuw's or Zurlinden's levels is not such a bad idea...or cut them down to one representative level. These are the levels for reference:

Path to Mahimah
Lixes in Arms
The Final Sacrifice (with mobius)

Diggin' The Air
Erbalunga
Bibbidi-Bobbidi-Boo
It's All Uphill From Here (with mobius)
The Last Laugh (with mobius)
Division of Labor (with mobius)

What happens next is that I'll scrap a few more levels we have a consensus on and update a few levels with backroute fixes. Then I hope by Friday I'll compile an alpha version of the pack in which the last 4 ratings are ordered, so you can comment on the ordering. This version will still have levels in non-final state, but also will contain a few excess levels, i.e. more than 40 per rating. It will come with a list of levels that I personally would scrap right now such that after scrapping these there will be 40 levels in each rating. At this stage you can comment on my ordering and my suggested list of last levels to scrap. You can still update your levels at this point, write hints, etc. In order to add a level after this alpha has been released, please put with your levels a suggestion (or a few suggestions) of which level your new level should replace (not in the same position, they can end up in different ratings, it's just that one level goes and another level comes in). But yeah, I hope to get this done by Friday and then I'll make a topic explaining things again.

[ccexplore]

Lixology: Has a backroute and cuber placement is annoying, and uses my old Holey Mountain design which I don't like (though Proxima does). Attached is my suggested replacement 'Breackout' (It's based on an old version of Brickout, which the hints would refer to and give some trivia. Also Breackout anagrams to Backroute). Comments welcome.

I guess I can't really comment on it without actually playing Lixology?  (Are they somewhat similar/related in concept?)

It's probably best for others to comment since I'm biased by already aware of geoo's solution beforehand.  Somehow I thought one of the other variations had a more interesting geoo solution, but I guess I'll have to dig up old files (if they still can be found) and see which one.  I guess if the general solution idea hasn't been featured in previous levels in the set, it's a decent introduction to it.

As it is right now, geoo' solution has a leftover skill.  Since we don't care about my original solution here perhaps there's an opportunity to add something to the level to usefully consume the leftover skill?  It'd also help reduce backroute possibilities (ie. outside of geoo's solution and my original solution) that haven't been uncovered yet.  Granted, it may be hard to do so in a way that looks nice.

If anyone want to prettify the level further, you have my blessing (though as-is the level's fine visually if a little Spartan).

Keep in mind that I still like to present in near future a community version of Brickout closer to my solution first, before we make decision to commit to this version.

[ccexplore]

After some major struggles and what feels like going through the 5 stages of grief (ie. denial => acceptance) , here's Brickout B10 and Won't Get Fooled Again v6.  At this point I'd say both levels have taken on sacrifices that may enforce the intended solutions, but at undesirable cost to visual quality of the levels (plus other aspects) relative to the somewhat questionable quality of the intended solutions.   So for the community set I'm probably more inclined to move on with adapting the levels for other interesting solutions instead.

ccexplore: The trick can't be used if you remove the slope that goes down to the exit, as you have to make sure that the following lix will be able to walk over the cube. It's actually possible to do a similar maneuver at the top before the exit, and use the resulting platformer brick to start on platforming to the left, but then the platform towards the left ends up too high, and the miner stops midway in the rectangular hole. The second issue here is that the lix die in the braziers when trying to walk over the cube.

Hmm, I guess this means it might be possible to achieve B10 without the ugly changes I made here.  Though I seem to recall at least during earlier versions, there was a need for the wall to be of at least a certain height in order to prevent certain backroutes (which may or may not have been killed now anyway with the numerous additions of steel and sawblades), yet my intended solution also require the walls to be not too tall either.  I think that was the only reason I introduced the slopes at some point during the B series, to satisfy both constraints.  I'll need to carefully review previous versions and associated backroutes to understand the consequences of slope removal.  Slope removal may be more viable if I break the symmetry (ie. terrain near entrance and near exit aren't exact mirror images), especially if the alternative is something hacky and also asymmetrical like my B10 here.