Author Topic: The Level Design Game: 2nd Edition!  (Read 17392 times)

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Offline ccexplore

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Re: The Level Design Game: 2nd Edition!
« Reply #45 on: December 26, 2010, 03:04:14 pm »
Fascinating. 8) I would've thought that some sort of nuking solution would be seen in at least one of the solutions presented.

I did realize that using traps would be one other way more lemmings can hurt, if nuking is not allowed, but hadn't worked out a good way myself to make that work.  Definitely did not expect the selection priority idea Clam had. :thumbsup:

Also really interesting that in both solutions, ultimately the time limit is necessary to block success with higher number of lemmings.  It is in particular slightly unsatisfying that neither levels can be made to work in both Lemmix and CustLemm/DosLemm without modifying the level for each particular mechanics.  I wonder if this will always be a necessary evil for this challenge?

Offline Clam

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Re: The Level Design Game: 2nd Edition!
« Reply #46 on: December 26, 2010, 08:57:20 pm »
Now you mention it, there might be a way to use the nuke for this challenge. It might even be possible to avoid the dependence on the time limit this way... I'll try to build it and get back to you. EDIT: nope, it ain't happening without the time limit. :(

I can't think of a new challenge for the life of me, so (for the first time ever I think) I'll call open floor.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: The Level Design Game: 2nd Edition!
« Reply #47 on: December 27, 2010, 05:49:20 pm »
EDIT: nope, it ain't happening without the time limit. :(

Hmm interesting.  I would think that with nuking (plus other stuff) it should become possible, if not to fully address geoo's challenge, at least to prevent the kind of unwanted solutions that both you and geoo resorted to the time limit to prevent.  Might be something for a next challenge.

...but I'm lazy (ie. not motivated enough yet to do the work of making my own level related to above paragraph), and just plain suck at coming up with good challenges :(, so here's an easy one.  So easy that perhaps the more experienced players like geoo and Clam should hold off a day or so and give a chance for other people to try? :-\ :XD: Anyhow:

Design a level with following criteria:

1) 1 entrance, 1 exit
2) no miners and no diggers
3) 100% save percentage
4) in any solution to the level, each and every lemming is assigned blocker at least once

[edit: solved by Gronkling]

Offline Gronkling

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Re: The Level Design Game: 2nd Edition!
« Reply #48 on: December 27, 2010, 09:15:37 pm »
Here's my attempt.  :) EDIT:... I didn't see the 100% rule.  :-[ level updated
LEMMINGS EVOLUTION completed levels: 100!!!
sorry for being gone so long D:

Offline ccexplore

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Re: The Level Design Game: 2nd Edition!
« Reply #49 on: December 27, 2010, 11:29:04 pm »
Good job! :thumbsup:

Technically you forgot to actually set the save percentage in your level to 100% (it still says to save 1 out of 2), and some objects fail the level checker in Lemmix.  However, those minor technicalities don't invalidate the level concept so I'll let those slide.

I've attached my version, which is basically a much uglier version of your level. :-\

[aside: the no miner no digger rule was added only to prevent certain obscure tricks allowing one to satisfy the challenge with just 1 lemming.  Perhaps I should've simply stipulate at least 2 lemmings to allow for greater variety of levels]

Anyway, it's your turn to come up with the next challenge.  Feel free to call open floor if you want, I think I might have another one to post, hopefully better than this one.

Offline Clam

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Re: The Level Design Game: 2nd Edition!
« Reply #50 on: December 28, 2010, 12:35:34 am »
Hey, this challenge sounds like a level I tried (and failed :() to build one time. Except mine would require you to use more blockers than there are lemmings, but not necessarily blocking every lemming.


Technically you forgot to actually set the save percentage in your level to 100% (it still says to save 1 out of 2), and some objects fail the level checker in Lemmix.  However, those minor technicalities don't invalidate the level concept so I'll let those slide.

Now that I think about it, disallowing levels on technicalities does seem silly. When I first wrote up the rules, I was worried about objections from people who don't use Lemmix for whatever reason (since Lemmix handles "invalid" objects just fine), but that hasn't been an issue so far. I'll reconsider this.


Hmm interesting.  I would think that with nuking (plus other stuff) it should become possible, if not to fully address geoo's challenge, at least to prevent the kind of unwanted solutions that both you and geoo resorted to the time limit to prevent.  Might be something for a next challenge.

I may as well show you what I came up with for a nuke solution anyway (attached). The trouble here, which I didn't consider earlier, is that adding 1, 2 or 3 extra lemmings makes the level unsolvable, but by adding 4 or any multiple of 4, without enforcing the time limit, you can just ignore the first (multiples of) 4 lemmings and use the rest to solve the level as before. What seems to be needed is some mechanism that allows a fixed number of lemmings from a given entrance through, but kills the rest (or otherwise prevents them from ever reaching the exit). This has to work without the use of any skills, otherwise (as mentioned above) you can just delay assigning the skill(s) until the right number of lemmings has passed through. Besides the time limit though, I can't imagine any mechanism that achieves this.

Offline Gronkling

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Re: The Level Design Game: 2nd Edition!
« Reply #51 on: December 28, 2010, 10:51:03 am »
Oops. I forgot to click of the box when I saved so it changed back again.  :XD:
I've attached the level with 100% if you can't be bothered to change it.  :P

I'll leave it open floor because I can't think of a challenge at all.
LEMMINGS EVOLUTION completed levels: 100!!!
sorry for being gone so long D:

Offline ccexplore

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Re: The Level Design Game: 2nd Edition!
« Reply #52 on: December 29, 2010, 07:07:14 am »
Okay, here's my next challenge (and likely the last good one for now, since I currently don't have any new ideas past this one).

Design a level with the following criteria:

1) 4 entrances

2) initial RR 99

3) requires every lemming saved [note: this means solutions using nuke glitch doesn't count]

4) For each skill type, you are not given more than 20 of that type of skill.
(ie. you can't have 21 diggers, but you're welcome to give 3 of each skill type even though the total of 24 is greater than 20.  You can certainly give less than 20, including zero ie. no exploders for example.)

5) No one-way wall objects allowed.

6) If you remove any one or more of the entrances, the resulting level becomes unsolvable, even with the following additional changes to the level:
    a) initial RR lowered to 1
    b) total number of lemmings increased to 80
    c) you are only required to save 1 lemming
    d) for each skill type where you were originally given at least 1 of that skill, increase the count of that skill type to 99
    e) infinite time limit (basically, the level cannot become unsolvable merely due to a potential solution running out of time to complete)

For rule #6, note that you need to ensure unsolvability for all combinations of entrances to remove.  There are 4 ways to remove one entrance, 6 ways to remove two entrances, and 4 ways to remove three.  All 14 resulting levels [each with the additional changes outlined a) thru e)] all have to be unsolvable.  In summary, the removal of entrances is so detrimental to the level, that it's not possible for you to scrap together any solution even with all the added advantages outlined a) thru e).

[edit: no changes to rules, but added emphasis on rule 6c based on various attempts observed]

Note that Lemmix does not handle ordering of 3-entrance levels correctly.  The correct ordering should be A, B, C, B, A, B, C, B, ..., but Lemmix under most configruations do A, B, C, A, A, B, C, A instead.  For purpose of this challenge, we will use the ABCB ordering for 3-entrance levels, NOT Lemmix's wrong ordering.  You can achieve this in Lemmix by making a copy of the second entrance.  For example, if the original level's entrances are A, B, C and D in that order, and you want to examine the level with entrance B removed, you can get the correct ordering of A, C, D, C by selecting entrance C, do "copy", and do "paste" to add a duplicate entrance C object.

Hope the rules are clear, and good luck!  Post here if there are any remaining questions on the rules of this challenge.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: The Level Design Game: 2nd Edition!
« Reply #53 on: January 04, 2011, 11:18:23 pm »
bump

...just my luck, the one time I have a decent challenge for LDG, the thread went dry... :-\

Incidentally, if the thing about entrance ordering is confusing, I'm happy to modify the challenge so that you can pick whatever entrance ordering works for you, as long as you let me know which ordering it is.  The fact is, if you did this right, the thing about entrance ordering doesn't matter at all.

Two more hints:

Quote from: highlight to read
1) Be very selective about which skills to include.  After all, all non-zero skill counts get bump up to 99 after entrance removal.  If this means you end up with 99 of every type of skill, it's awfully hard to ensure there isn't any way to backroute a solution into the resulting "unsolvable" level.

2) Instead of starting with 4 entrances, see if you can do a similar challenge but starting with only 2 entrances.  If you can make that work, it's pretty easy to extend to 4.
 

Offline geoo

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Re: The Level Design Game: 2nd Edition!
« Reply #54 on: January 05, 2011, 01:57:53 pm »
Despite the lengthy description, it didn't turn out to be too hard after all. Below is my attempt (haven't read the hints yet).

If my level is valid, I might have a nice new challenge (assuming I manage to solve it myself).

Offline ccexplore

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Re: The Level Design Game: 2nd Edition!
« Reply #55 on: January 05, 2011, 08:19:10 pm »
Despite the lengthy description, it didn't turn out to be too hard after all.

Yeah, I would say that's an accurate and expected assessment.  80% of the challenge is to really understand what the challenge is after, what is the core idea behind the conditions (or really, behind the one major condition for the challenge).

Unfortunately, while you are pretty close, your level does not pass the challenge, since it does not satisfy rule #6c:

6) If you remove any one or more of the entrances, the resulting level becomes unsolvable, even with the following additional changes to the level:
<snip>
    c) you are only required to save 1 lemming

In your current level, it's possible to save at least 1 lemming with certain entrances removed.

One other thing I haven't bothered to check is whether the level is backroute-able with a nuke solution; however, given that 99% of the time one can prevent that sort of solution by setting up a long walk to the exit, I'm going to let that sort of thing pass for this challenge, whenever it's obvious that nuke solutions can be eliminated with long walks (including your level).

Offline Nortaneous

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Re: The Level Design Game: 2nd Edition!
« Reply #56 on: January 06, 2011, 12:39:26 am »
Calling this ugly as hell would be a serious understatement, but I think it should work. The ugliness is mostly in attempts to stop possible backroutes. It is rather annoying that no sets have traps that work well for what I'm trying to do with them.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: The Level Design Game: 2nd Edition!
« Reply #57 on: January 06, 2011, 02:26:41 am »
Hmm interesting.  I would think that with nuking (plus other stuff) it should become possible, if not to fully address geoo's challenge, at least to prevent the kind of unwanted solutions that both you and geoo resorted to the time limit to prevent.  Might be something for a next challenge.

I may as well show you what I came up with for a nuke solution anyway (attached). The trouble here, which I didn't consider earlier, is that adding 1, 2 or 3 extra lemmings makes the level unsolvable, but by adding 4 or any multiple of 4, without enforcing the time limit, you can just ignore the first (multiples of) 4 lemmings and use the rest to solve the level as before. What seems to be needed is some mechanism that allows a fixed number of lemmings from a given entrance through, but kills the rest (or otherwise prevents them from ever reaching the exit). This has to work without the use of any skills, otherwise (as mentioned above) you can just delay assigning the skill(s) until the right number of lemmings has passed through. Besides the time limit though, I can't imagine any mechanism that achieves this.

I think I might have finally got a way to make your level work without the time limit.  Actually, I already have a general idea in mind for addressing the issue you noted, before even seeing your level.  But it was quite hard to apply the idea to your particular level, and I'm still not 100% sure my particular application works correctly without backroutes.

Quote from: general idea
I try to set things up so that if you don't assign a skill to the first lemming out, the resulting "ignored" lemmings end up present in places that will ruin the nuke solution.  The key is that the ignored lemmings may still explode, and thus cause things to happen that would kill the unwanted solution(s).

Quote from: applying to your level
I raised the initial platform where the blocker was to be set, and I added a zap trap a little above the exit trigger.  The idea is to take advantage of the glitch where blockers can cancel various trigger areas, and in certain cases even help "transport" them elsewhere.  In the intended solution, the blocker cancels both the zap trap's and the exit's trigger areas, but the blocker will explode in time to restore the exit trigger area for the lemming to save--but only after the lemming has gotten past the canceled zap-trap trigger.

If you decide to skip the initial 4 lemmings, the 1st lemming from the left entrance ends up in that "waiting area" just a little below where you need to set the blocker.  It's too low for you to set the blocker in that place instead, but it's high enough that if you have any lemmings there, their explosion will free the blocker set in the intended position.  I haven't tested it for various number of lemmings, but the intention is that either the blocker is freed before he "oh-no", in which case you end up with the zap trap restored, or he is freed after he "oh-no", in which case both the zap trap and the exit trigger will fall to lower elevation, rendering the exit unreachable (and possibly also causing zap trap restored).  I have to admit I haven't tested this thoroughly yet.

I've attached the modified version of your level, where time limit is raised to 2 and number of lemmings to 13, and various terrain and objects added, in accordance to the application of my idea for killing unwanted non-9-lemming solutions.  In lieu of moving the "marker" for when to nuke, I simply attached a replay specifically for the 13-lemming case ignoring first 4.  You will note that the replay fails to save the lemming, due to some events happening near the end.  Then simply move the terrain involved in interfering with the solution (hopefully it should be obvious what terrain to move, especially if you read the "appying to your level" spoiler), and the same replay should then actually result in a lemming saved.  Together, it shows that the unwanted 13-lemming solution is successfully killed.  You can test the level with other number of lemmings similarly.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: The Level Design Game: 2nd Edition!
« Reply #58 on: January 06, 2011, 02:36:05 am »
Calling this ugly as hell would be a serious understatement, but I think it should work. The ugliness is mostly in attempts to stop possible backroutes. It is rather annoying that no sets have traps that work well for what I'm trying to do with them.

Your level suffers from the same problem as geoo's.  Rule 6c says that the level has to be unsolvable after entrance removal even when the save requirement is relaxed to 1 out of 80 (instead of saving 100% as the original level is required).

Offline geoo

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Re: The Level Design Game: 2nd Edition!
« Reply #59 on: January 06, 2011, 11:42:34 am »
Interesting idea making use of so many game specific mechanics to get a time-limit independent solution for my old challenge! :thumbsup:

Unfortunately, while you are pretty close, your level does not pass the challenge, since it does not satisfy rule #6c:
That was a pretty bad oversight, already on a conceptional level: merely a cyclic dependency isn't sufficient, a (pairwise) mutual dependency is needed...
Recycling the ideas from the previous level, here's my next attempt: