[Lemmings 2] fewest different types of skills needed to get gold (Incomplete)

[ccexplore]

Figure I might as well start a thread for this type of challenge also.

This is of course modeled after <a href="index66e2.html?topic=181.0" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">namida's "Fewest different skills levels can be beaten with" challenge</a> for Lemmings-1 based games.  The idea here is to minimize the different types of skills needed to gold a level, rather than the actual count of skills.  This means that a gold solution using 60 rock climbers and 60 swimmers is better for this challenge than a solution that uses 1 stomper, 1 platformer and 1 roper, because the former uses only 2 types of skills (rock climber+swimmer) while the latter uses 3 types, even though the total skills count is 120 vs 3.

The nice thing about this type of challenge over the "skills you can't live without" is that with "skills you can't live without", sometimes it ends up being an exercise in analysis rather than creative level solving.  When a level has such a good variety of skills that you can easily substitute one type of skill for another, you can easily end up with no skills being essential, and you end up with a result that's purely an analysis exercise rather than something interesting from a solution standpoint.  Whereas in this challenge, you at least have the additional challenge of restricting the variety of skills to use, and see how far you can push in that direction.

Again, no idea how successful this will be, but let's give it a try anyway.

Results will be reported in the form of combinations of skill types.  Combinations with same number of types of skills are equal for this challenge, so you may see a result listed as (say) "roper+stomper, roper+bomber, platformer+roper" since all three are 2-type combos.  Just because a combo isn't listed doesn't necessarily mean it's not possible. It could just mean no one has found or reported a gold solution using that combo.

Again, I'll start off with a few results. Again, unreported combos are simply that, unreported.  I'm fairly sure for example that Cavelem 1 probably has a builders-only gold solution and possibly a stompers-only gold solution, but haven't confirmed neither at the moment. [edit: confirmed both]

<span style="font-size: 0.7em;" class="bbc_size"><strong><span class="bbc_u">Classic</span></strong>
1: builders+bashers, builders+miners, builders+diggers
2: ?
3: ?
4: ?
5: ?
6: ?
7: ?
8: ?
9: ?
10: ?

<strong><span class="bbc_u">Beach</span></strong>
1: ?
2: ?
3: ?
4: ?
5: builders+glue pourers
6: ?
7: ?
8: ?
9: ?
10: scoopers+archers

<strong><span class="bbc_u">Cavelems</span></strong>
1: stompers, builders, club bashers
2: stompers+scoopers
3: platformers
4: scoopers, stompers
5: stompers
6: stompers+ropers
7: ropers+stackers, ropers+platformers
8: ?
9: ?
10: ?

<strong><span class="bbc_u">Circus</span></strong>
1: ?
2: ?
3: twisters+platformers
4: twisters
5: ?
6: ?
7: ?
8: ?
9: pole vaulters+laser blasters+platformers, laser blasters+magic carpeters+platformers
10: ?

<strong><span class="bbc_u">Egyptian</span></strong>
1: ?
2: ?
3: ?
4: twisters
5: ?
6: ropers+any 2nd skill except attractor (not fully confirmed)
7: ?
8: ?
9: ?
10: ?

<strong><span class="bbc_u">Highland</span></strong>
1: twisters
2: ?
3: ?
4: throwers+fillers (not confirmed but likely)
5: ?
6: ?
7: platformers, stackers
8: ?
9: flamethrowers+platformers+attractor+Icarus wings
10: ?

<strong><span class="bbc_u">Medieval</span></strong>
1: scoopers+any 2nd skill except parachuters
2: twisters+sand pourers
3: exploders+stompers+ropers, exploders+stompers+platformers
4: all except the surfer (club bashers+sand pourers+stackers+glue pourers)
5: club bashers+builders+bombers
6: twisters+platformers
7: platformers+fencers
8: platformers+stompers
9: ropers+archers, runners+archers, builders+archers, jumpers+archers
10: ?

<strong><span class="bbc_u">Outdoor</span></strong>
1: twisters, platformers, sand pourers, glue pourers, planters
2: laser blasters, stackers
3: flamerthrowers+platformers
4: archers+glue pourers, glue pourers+ropers
5: ropers
6: ropers
7: bombers
8: platformers
9: builders+archers
10: stompers+platformers+bombers, stompers+platformers+fencers

<strong><span class="bbc_u">Polar</span></strong>
1: ?
2: fencers+flamethrowers
3: ropers
4: ?
5: ?
6: ?
7: ?
8: ?
9: ?
10: ?

<strong><span class="bbc_u">Shadow</span></strong>
1: ?
2: twisters+fencers, twisters+bashers
3: ?
4: jetpackers+bashers+glue pourers
5: ?
6: ?
7: ?
8: ?
9: ?
10: ?

<strong><span class="bbc_u">Space</span></strong>
1: mortars, platformers
2: ?
3: fencers+stompers+platformers
4: ?
5: bombers+ropers+ballooners
6: climbers+shimmiers+hoppers+runners+fillers+spearers
7: ?
8: rock climbers+laser blasters+stompers
9: ?
10: ?

<strong><span class="bbc_u">Sports</span></strong>
1: flamethrowers+bombers
2: ?
3: platformers+attractors
4: jumpers+ropers*
5: stompers+jumpers
6: ropers+platformers
7: ?
8: ?
9: ropers
10: jumpers+archers+ropers

*Sports 4's jumpers+ropers solution requires you to start the level with 57 lemmings (or less than 60 in any event).  That's still possible for gold because you're allowed to lose 3 lemmings on Sports 1.</span>

[ccexplore]

Updated the table with a few more results.  A few are worthy challenges I think, although perhaps more on the execution side.  I've attached screenshots for Outdoor 1 with glue pourers only, Outdoor 4 with roper+glue pourers only, and Outdoor 4 with archers+glue pourers only.  Outdoor 2 can be done with only stackers--I can provide screenshots if you want, but it's not hard to imagine what it looks like.

I imagine this thread will get less attention while there are more focus on the "skills you can't live without" thread, but remember, results for this thread may help you out with the analysis on the other thread.

[Simon]

I've been taking a small break from the L2 challenge solutions recently. But I assume that these new topics will be resolved one after the other, now that we're done with minimum skills. Finding lots of different solutions is more exciting, that's what the other topic requires.

I have a few trivial results for fewest different skills (Classic 1: builder+basher, Space 1: superlem+mortar), but I'd like to wait until I have some more to warrant a proper post.

-- Simon

[ccexplore]

I've updated the table with results for Classic 1 and Space 1 (though trivially improved; for example you can do Space 1 with just 2 mortars).

Despite being hopelessly addicted to them at times, I too can and probably should use a small break from these challenges.  Are you working on L++ these days?

===================

I did end up looking at Sports 10 last night, leading to the fewest different skills result of jumper+archer+roper.  In other words, a no-runner solution.  Which isn't exactly surprising, but the limited amount of skills means you have to work a little smarter than merely abusing jumpers and archers (for delay).  The attached screenshots show one relatively simple approach to this.  I expect to continue on with this level over on the "skills you can't live without" thread, to whittle down on the number of archers and ropers.  Stay tuned......

[geoo]

Despite being hopelessly addicted to them at times, I too can and probably should use a small break from these challenges.  Are you working on L++ these days?

Is that an insinuation to trying out L++? (Probably not, but it's worth a try. The L++ related activity has migrated to the IRC channel for most part, lately.)

Considering how many scores you managed to achieve in that little time, I guess addicted is the right term. Got to catch up with you on these ones as well already.
As always, I take it slow with the challenges, and marvel at other players' solutions; I haven't had a thorough look at a portion of the levels for the min-skill challenge yet either. Also allows for the challenges to last longer.

It seems that you're right in that this challenge yields more interesting solutions than the 'skills you can't live without', as it's more restrictive on the skillset rather than just removing (or minimizing) a single type of skill while keeping the others at their original value.

Scores for the rest of Outdoor:

Outdoor 3: flamerthrowers + platformers
Outdoor 7: bombers
Outdoor 8: platformers (this one ties the minimum skill solution, and it's pretty nice as well)
Outdoor 9: builders + archers
Outdoor 10: Doesn't seem to get better than the min skill solution, as the lems can't walk over the top of the flowers at the right, so: stomper + platformer + bomber / stomper + platformer + fencer

Screenshot to 8 & 9 attached; and some notes:

Outdoor 8: You got to close the gap on the diagonal towards the top late enough that after the last lems got up there, there will be a gap, but early enough to have the last ones not be clustered.
Outdoor 9: Guess there's a variety of ways to do it, but I had a larger gap where I had the crowd walk in which I closed with a builder then.

[ccexplore]

Is that an insinuation to trying out L++? (Probably not, but it's worth a try. The L++ related activity has migrated to the IRC channel for most part, lately.)

Ah, so that's why the forum has seen such a drop in activity.

I have nothing against L++ and while I'm sure I'll get my *** handed to me on the multiplayer games at least at first, it sounds fun.  That said, I don't know how easy it'll be for me to commit to a specific time in order to join a game, or even being able to clear up a block of time specifically for a multiplayer game.  We'll see.  Maybe I'll join the IRC channel if nothing else.

As always, I take it slow with the challenges, and marvel at other players' solutions; I haven't had a thorough look at a portion of the levels for the min-skill challenge yet either. Also allows for the challenges to last longer.

In my rush with the min-skills thread, I do see now I've failed to acknowledge some of other players' solutions.  Circus 6, 7 and 10 are pretty well-done, good job on Beach 8, and nice catch with Beach 6.  And probably a lot more.  Basically any non-trivial results on that thread that I failed to improve, they are solutions deserving some praise even if I didn't say it.   Perhaps if I set a rule for myself to try to fully execute another player's reported solutions before reporting my own results, I could've prevented myself from drawing that thread to a close too quickly.

I'm definitely going to take things a little slower with these new challenge threads.

[geoo]

In the past, L++ multiplayer sessions have lasted anything from 5 minutes up to 5 hours. Via IRC it's easiest to find out who's currently available. (Also it's currently not downloadable on the site, so you can get it from someone on there as well if you haven't already.)
Yeah, you don't have the advantage of everyone being in the same unexperienced state like when it started anymore.

In my rush with the min-skills thread, I do see now I've failed to acknowledge some of other players' solutions.  Circus 6, 7 and 10 are pretty well-done, good job on Beach 8, and nice catch with Beach 6.  And probably a lot more.  Basically any non-trivial results on that thread that I failed to improve, they are solutions deserving some praise even if I didn't say it.   Perhaps if I set a rule for myself to try to fully execute another player's reported solutions before reporting my own results, I could've prevented myself from drawing that thread to a close too quickly.

At least I don't mind you going through the challenges at break-neck speed, in fact it means more solutions for me to marvel at. I wouldn't have the time go through all of the levels from the ground, and in fact even with the solutions available I haven't had a thorough look for improvements at all of the levels yet in the min-skill thread. So already having a set score speeds up this process a lot. I don't think you have to force yourself to fully execute other players' (potentially tedious) solutions for yourself, but do what you find most fun. And at least for me the min-skill thread hasn't been drawn to a close yet.
I see that looking at the solution might spoil finding 'nice' solutions if they have already been found, but most of the time I'm glad I didn't have to execute horribly timing/precision-reliant solution.
I suggest to introduce the notion of 'nice' solutions, i.e. when a solution is conceptionally interesting and not overly hard to execute, label it as 'nice' so that other players can distinguish between the tedious and nice ones, and try the latter for themselves before looking at the solutions. (E.g. min-skill Medieval 5 and Outdoor 7 would belong into this category.)

Finally, some more Medieval scores:

EDIT: missed Medieval 1: scoopers+(icarus wings or jetpacks or stackers or sand pourers)

Medieval 4: all - seems like all types of skills are needed here.

Medieval 5: club bashers+builders+bombers - pretty much the min-skill solution

Medieval 8: platformers+stompers - requires some pixel precision to execute, but having a shrugger stomp and immediately assign a platformer again is a workaround for frame precise assignments.

Medieval 9: archers+roper - short description to be added later.

[ccexplore]

Good job on Medieval 8.

I've added a few more results for Medieval as well (and perhaps more to come):

Medieval 1: scoopers+jumpers
Medieval 3: exploder+stomper+roper (the min-skill solution), exploder+stompers+platformers
Medieval 9: runners+archers

With screenshots attached for some.

[ccexplore]

And at least for me the min-skill thread hasn't been drawn to a close yet.

And given our knowledge of glitches for Lemmings 2 are nowhere as complete as for Lemmings 1, there're bound to be new surprises every now and then.  Like right now, I just discovered something with the dragon in Medieval 9 that would lead to a post in the Lemmings 2 glitch thread and some new results, including one for the min-skill thread.  Thanks for leading me into looking into Medieval again!

[ccexplore]

As promised, some additional results for this thread for Medieval 9, though as it turned out, none actually require the dragon frame-step glitch (though I did use it for one of the solutions):

1) builder+archers
2) jumpers+archers

Both (especially #2) require quite a bit of pixel precision.  My screenshots for builder+archers did use the frame-step glitch, but if you look at the solution for jumpers+archers, you see that the archer could've been fired from right of the dragon for same effect, so the glitch is not strictly necessary.

Below's an explanation of what the arrow landing left of the dragon does, which may not be apparent from the screenshots (note: runners+archers has same feature also):

The arrow does not fully cover the entire trigger area of the dragon, but it does cover enough of the portion from the right that, between the time a lemming move off the arrow into what remains of the trigger area, and the dragon's fire actually striking, the lemming is already out of the danger zone.  This only works though if there isn't another lemming following too closely behind the one that triggered the dragon, as he would get killed instead.  In effect, we need to maintain at least the same spacing between lemmings as their spacing coming out of the entrance.

Below are notes on each solution in case the screenshots don't fully convey everything:

builder+archers: 1st lemming out fires a vertical arrow to trap the crowd, with 2nd lemming out overtaking him before arrow is ready, so 2nd lemming will be the hero.  The arrow must land at the exact place shown in screenshot D (use screenshots A and B for how to fire).  At that position, the crowd will be compressed into 4 discrete positions instead of spreading all over the pit, giving us the desired spacing between lemmings (except for the archer, but we'll deal with that in a moment).

Hero builds over the water, use another arrow for turn around, and use exactly one arrow for the dragon.  You can either use the frame-step glitch to get the hero left of the dragon, and then shoot an arrow according to screenshot C.  Or, you can shoot the arrow from right of the dragon, according to screenshot E of the jumpers+archers solution, for same effect.  As explained in the other spoiler section, that arrow allows all lemmings to get past the dragon, as long as the incoming lemmings are spaced at least the distance they are spaced coming out of the entrance.

Finally, after everyone has come out, the lemming that fired the crowd-trapping arrow (the one lemming that violates the desired spacing between lemmings) will fire the remaining arrow diagonally to the ground next to the vertical arrow, to create a slope allowing everyone to get up and over the vertical arrow (screenshot D).  This will allow the 4 distinct compressed groups of lemmings to come out, with the archer following behind them all at some distance.

jumpers+archers: 1st lemming out (A) needs to jump 3 times.  The 2nd jump must not hit the "dragon claw" thingie near the entrance--wait until lemming is at least halfway past the thumb before jumping.  The 3rd jump must be enough to the left that he can land on the steel block right of the water.

Jump the 2nd lemming (B) against the lowest part of the dragon claw to make him swoon, as a delay.  He will end up behind 3rd lemming out (C), closer to 4th lemming out (D).

Lemming A will fire 2 arrows to allow crowd to cross water.  But after assigning him the 2nd archer and before firing, switch to jumper and prepare jump lemming C at the exact position shown in screenshot A.  The timing will work out such that you basically assign jumper and fire the arrow with the same mouse-click (screenshot B).

Lemming C will end up reflecting and land facing left, swooning.  Now have lemming A fall down and walk slightly past lemming C, then fire a vertical arrow in the exact manner shown in screenshot C.  Time the firing of the arrow based on the positions of the two lemmings behind (lemmings B and D) in the exact moment shown in screenshot C.  This will result in lemming A and B ending up at the exact same position when finished.

Now lemming D will fire the arrow to the left of the dragon, standing at the exact position shown in screenshot D (basically just as you move off the slope onto flat ground).  Fire the arrow in the exact manner shown in screenshot E, timing the firing of the arrow based on positions of other lemmings in the exact moment shown in the screenshot.  This will result in lemming D ending up at the exact same position as a lemming in the crowd when finished.  We end up with a setup where no lemmings are violating the minimum spacing for safe passage through the dragon.

[ccexplore]

Medieval 4: all - seems like all types of skills are needed here.

I finally worked out a no-surfer solution for that level.

At the column you need to club-bash through (obviously from the left in this case), experiment with having the lemming behind glue-pour during the club-bashing, and then have the club-basher stack at the edge while glue is still flowing past.  There exists a timing for doing so which results in a single-pixel overhang being created, allowing your second glue-pouring to go all the way across.

2nd and 5th lemming out will stack near the entrance (screenshot A) to delay themselves.  1st lemming out will stack on the greenery on the platform before the fatal fall, at a part that slopes upwards, so that the stack is high enough to turn around the lemming behind (3rd lemming out) (screenshot B).  Assign sand-pourer to 1st lemming out when he's facing left and the stack is tall enough (screenshot C).

Now comes the fun part.  When a lemming first approaches the column that needs club-bashing, start club-bashing right next to the column (screenshot D), then assign the lemming behind him glue-pourer at the exact moment shown in screenshot E.  Have the club-basher stack at the very edge (screenshot F).  The end result is shown in screenshot G, where a one-pixel overhang of glue is created, which the stacker can glue-pour against to create the 1-pixel-thin platform spanning across (screenshot H).

[ccexplore]

I've just updated this neglected thread with a few mostly trivial results spun-off from the "skills you can't live without" thread.

Of some interest though is the Sports 4 result, jumpers+ropers.  Just like the no-roper solution, it's based on the special distribution of skills in this level, together with the fact that you don't need to start off with 60 lemmings in this level for gold as long as you don't lose any during the level.  (Because you're allowed to, and probably can't avoid, losing a few in Sports 1.)  It's also fortunately much easier to execute than the no-roper solution.  See spoiler for details.

Modify the no-roper solution as follows:

1) The no-roper solution starts off using 2 shimmiers as jumper-substitutes.  Here we'll just use jumpers.

2) The no-roper solution has the hero dive onto the checkered block so he remains facing left.  Here, you will jump the hero immediately before he falls, so he reflects off the left wall while falling out of the jump, and ends up facing right when he lands onto the checkered block.  Hero can then shoot a rope right-and-up to form the landing for the crowd (as well as turning himself back to the left), and a 2nd rope left-and-down to reach the exit.

3) Now simply have each one in the crowd jump over the small block right of the tennis racket.  The hero himself used up 4 jumpers, so you can only jump 56 more lemmings.  Together with the hero himself, this means a total of 57 lemmings saved.  Therefore, in order to get gold, you have to start the level with only 57 lemmings, which is possible for gold as you are allowed to lose 3 lemmings in Sports 1.

===============

August 13 2012:
(seems wrong to bump a thread that already wasn't that heavily posted even when it was just started, so doing an edit instead...)

As reported on the "min skills for gold" thread (with attached screenshots there), Sports 6 can be done with just roper+platformer.  Indeed, not needing to minimize total number of skills on this challenge, here you can save all the lemmings.