Author Topic: The level design game!  (Read 18177 times)

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Offline Clam

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The level design game!
« on: September 03, 2009, 07:32:32 am »
I had this idea that rather than creating a level and challenging people to solve it, creating the level could itself be the challenge. The idea is this: You post a description of a level (preferably one that DOESN'T YET EXIST), in terms of a number of conditions. The first person to post a level that meets these conditions is the winner and can then post a description of another level. I have no idea how well this will work, but we'll see. :D


Rules

I don't want to weigh this down with too many rules, but I fear this game is going to require rather a lot of them in order to function... It's all fairly straightforward though.


Setting a challenge

  • The conditions can be anything you like, as long as they are objective (i.e. not subject to opinion) and possible within the limitations of Lemmix / DOS Custlemm.
  • You must build the level yourself first as a proof of concept (and thus be able to provide it if requested). This level must also comply with the rules for completing a challenge (see below).
  • Be very careful to specify exactly what you want and avoid "backroutes"...

Completing a challenge

  • You can build the level in any of the 10 original tilesets, unless otherwise specified by the challenge conditions.
  • It doesn't need to look good (preferably it should though) and it doesn't need a title, as long as it works.
  • The level must:
    - meet all of the specified conditions
    - be solvable
    - have 80 or fewer lemmings (so as to avoid crashing in Custlemm)
    - have a save requirement of at least 1 lemming
    - pass the level validator test (i.e. <=400 terrain, <=32 objects, <=32 steel, objects and steel aligned with DOS grid)

  • You should be able to describe the solution (if it's not obvious) - preferably with a replay, but other methods are OK.
  • If you know of a level already in existence that meets the criteria, you can post that as your solution. But keep in mind that the point of the game is to push the boundaries in new ways, not just dig up old levels ;)
  • Post your new challenge straight away after solving one - don't wait for confirmation. EDIT: This has been changed. Please wait for confirmation before posting a new challenge. (You can call a conditional "open floor" when you post a solution, if you want.)


Here is the first challenge. I don't like the way floaters always seem to outlive the regular guys, so I want to see a level where...
  • In any solution to the level, all the floaters die (NOT left on the level at time up) and all other lemmings exit.
  • There are at least 5 lemmings, and at least 5 floaters available.

Can't let you get away with 0 floaters and 100% saved now. :P No restrictions on the other skills. And note that "any solution" means you're allowed to waste skills too.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: The level design game!
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2009, 08:56:47 pm »
Interesting idea, although I'm not sure how many people here design levels in this sort of mindset.  I know I do, but then I don't think very visually, and as you can see, as a result I haven't made many levels.

Anyway, here's my answer to your challenge.  The attached ZIP file contains the LVL as well as a Lemmix replay, which is made opening the level in "Custom Lemmings" style (but the exact same solution should work on the level unmodified with DOS Lemmings mechanics).  Even if you can't watch the replay, it should be blatantly obvious what the solution is anyway.

I'm too lazy to think of the next one right now, so I'll just call "open floor" until I got something or someone else beats me to it.

[edit:  fixed level so that all non-floaters will exit, as required by challenge]

Offline ccexplore

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Re: The level design game!
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2009, 09:13:26 pm »
Whoops, I think I misread the challenge and forgot about the requirement that all non-floaters must exit.  Darn.  I'll think of something though I'm sure.....

Offline ccexplore

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Re: The level design game!
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2009, 09:24:25 pm »
Okay, it's pretty easy now that I think of it.  Just take my level, remove all the traps near the exit, and bump the save requirement to 50%.  I'll update the level in a minute.

Offline Clam

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Re: The level design game!
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2009, 09:37:59 pm »
Well done, you beat me to it. I was just about to say something like "you're extremely close".

I just thought of something else that would be nice - when a challenge is completed, the person who posted the challenge can upload their own version and we can compare. The reason being that there are a lot of ways to go about designing a level given a small number of conditions.

Here (attached) is my version. The obvious solution:
Quote
Float the first lemming, and every second lemming after that.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: The level design game!
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2009, 09:44:33 pm »
Cool.  :thumbsup: I have to say your solution meets the "spirit" of your challenge more closely.  I'd say mine's basically a cop-out with regards to floaters, by making two groups of lemmings forcing one group to be all sacrificed to save the other, and then just add the floater requirement in for the hero group as a sort of afterthought.

Offline Clam

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Re: The level design game!
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2009, 10:01:43 pm »
I considered adding another condition, "no other skills", but it's the first challenge and I didn't want to make it too tough.

Now, as it's open floor, does anyone have a new challenge?

Offline Fernito

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Re: The level design game!
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2009, 10:09:13 pm »
Whoa, very nice idea! I'm a bit busy right now, but as soon as I have time I'll think of a challenge  :D
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Offline Yawg

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Re: The level design game!
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2009, 11:47:20 pm »
Ok, here's an idea I've been kicking around for awhile.
  • 2 Lemmings, 1 floater, 1 climber (any amounts of the other skills), and 2 exits. Save both lemmings (100%)
  • The route to each exit must have both climber and floater-only obstacles, i.e sheer walls and deadly drops, but the lemmings cannot both use the same exit.
  • You cannot give the floater and the climber to the same lemming
  • Finally, you cannot "brute force" a route with builders; that is, you may not simply build over everything

I may not have phrased this very well, so if it doesn't make sense or if it seems too easy (if anyone spots glaring holes in the logic), let me know and I'll try to clarify.
Finally released my 6th level pack! Ten levels intended to push you quite a bit beyond the expectations of Mayhem/Havoc; check 'em out and let me know what you think!

http://camanis.net/lemmings/levelpacks.php?info&pack=174

Offline ccexplore

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Re: The level design game!
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2009, 12:07:50 am »
Here's my attempt.  I'm particularly unsure about your second rule, since clearly in the end, you cannot have both lemmings both climb and float, so clearly at some point some of the so-called "climber-only" and "floater-only" obstacles must be bypassed in some other fashion, so that one of the lemmings no longer need to climb up or float down them.

Offline Yawg

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Re: The level design game!
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2009, 12:12:06 am »
yeah. I knew I left something out; You can't give both the climber and the floater to the same lemming (ill change my challenge to reflect this).

Sorry about that, Ccexplore. Hopefully it will take you a little longer to solve now?  :)
Finally released my 6th level pack! Ten levels intended to push you quite a bit beyond the expectations of Mayhem/Havoc; check 'em out and let me know what you think!

http://camanis.net/lemmings/levelpacks.php?info&pack=174

Offline ccexplore

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Re: The level design game!
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2009, 12:29:56 am »
Okay, how about this?

Offline Yawg

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Re: The level design game!
« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2009, 12:36:29 am »
I'd call that solved. Nice work, figured I should have made it harder  :). Someday I hope to make a level around this concept and see how many times I can make the 2 lemmings  trade off; that is, force the player to alternate which lemming works on each obstacle on each path. I already made a level like this in my 4th level pack, but I wanted see if I could refine the concept further.

Attached is the level I made to demonstrate this challenge.

Looks like Ccexplore has the floor for the next challenge  :thumbsup:
Finally released my 6th level pack! Ten levels intended to push you quite a bit beyond the expectations of Mayhem/Havoc; check 'em out and let me know what you think!

http://camanis.net/lemmings/levelpacks.php?info&pack=174

Offline ccexplore

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Re: The level design game!
« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2009, 12:42:27 am »
I came up with something very similar after posting my previous level and before seeing yours, just in case you decide to clarify your requirements again.  I think what you were going for in your second rule is that not only must there be climber and floater obstacles involved in both routes to the exit, but all such obstacles must be climbed/floated at least once during the solution.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: The level design game!
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2009, 12:44:53 am »
Looks like Ccexplore has the floor for the next challenge  :thumbsup:

I'm going to continue calling open floor at this point.  I actually did have an idea for a challenge before Yawg started his, but I haven't managed to make it work yet. :XD: I think I'll need more time to either re-work the challenge requirements so it's more forgiving without making the rules a mess to follow, or maybe actually manage to make it work in its current form.  So until then, anyone who wants to jump in, feel free! 8)