Post by: Clam on September 03, 2009, 07:32:32 AM
Rules
I don't want to weigh this down with too many rules, but I fear this game is going to require rather a lot of them in order to function... It's all fairly straightforward though.
Setting a challenge
- The conditions can be anything you like, as long as they are objective (i.e. not subject to opinion) and possible within the limitations of Lemmix / DOS Custlemm.
- You must build the level yourself first as a proof of concept (and thus be able to provide it if requested). This level must also comply with the rules for completing a challenge (see below).
- Be very careful to specify exactly what you want and avoid "backroutes"...
Completing a challenge
- You can build the level in any of the 10 original tilesets, unless otherwise specified by the challenge conditions.
- It doesn't need to look good (preferably it should though) and it doesn't need a title, as long as it works.
- The level must:
- meet all of the specified conditions
- be solvable
- have 80 or fewer lemmings (so as to avoid crashing in Custlemm)
- have a save requirement of at least 1 lemming
- pass the level validator test (i.e. <=400 terrain, <=32 objects, <=32 steel, objects and steel aligned with DOS grid) - You should be able to describe the solution (if it's not obvious) - preferably with a replay, but other methods are OK.
- If you know of a level already in existence that meets the criteria, you can post that as your solution. But keep in mind that the point of the game is to push the boundaries in new ways, not just dig up old levels
Post your new challenge straight away after solving one - don't wait for confirmation.EDIT: This has been changed. Please wait for confirmation before posting a new challenge. (You can call a conditional "open floor" when you post a solution, if you want.)
Here is the first challenge. I don't like the way floaters always seem to outlive the regular guys, so I want to see a level where...
- In any solution to the level, all the floaters die (NOT left on the level at time up) and all other lemmings exit.
- There are at least 5 lemmings, and at least 5 floaters available.
Can't let you get away with 0 floaters and 100% saved now.
No restrictions on the other skills. And note that "any solution" means you're allowed to waste skills too.
Post by: ccexplore on September 03, 2009, 08:56:47 PM
Anyway, here's my answer to your challenge. The attached ZIP file contains the LVL as well as a Lemmix replay, which is made opening the level in "Custom Lemmings" style (but the exact same solution should work on the level unmodified with DOS Lemmings mechanics). Even if you can't watch the replay, it should be blatantly obvious what the solution is anyway.
I'm too lazy to think of the next one right now, so I'll just call "open floor" until I got something or someone else beats me to it.
[edit: fixed level so that all non-floaters will exit, as required by challenge]
Post by: ccexplore on September 03, 2009, 09:13:26 PM
Post by: ccexplore on September 03, 2009, 09:24:25 PM
Post by: Clam on September 03, 2009, 09:37:59 PM
I just thought of something else that would be nice - when a challenge is completed, the person who posted the challenge can upload their own version and we can compare. The reason being that there are a lot of ways to go about designing a level given a small number of conditions.
Here (attached) is my version. The obvious solution:
Quote
Float the first lemming, and every second lemming after that.
Post by: ccexplore on September 03, 2009, 09:44:33 PM
I have to say your solution meets the "spirit" of your challenge more closely. I'd say mine's basically a cop-out with regards to floaters, by making two groups of lemmings forcing one group to be all sacrificed to save the other, and then just add the floater requirement in for the hero group as a sort of afterthought.
Post by: Clam on September 03, 2009, 10:01:43 PM
Now, as it's open floor, does anyone have a new challenge?
Post by: Fernito on September 03, 2009, 10:09:13 PM
Post by: Yawg on September 03, 2009, 11:47:20 PM
- 2 Lemmings, 1 floater, 1 climber (any amounts of the other skills), and 2 exits. Save both lemmings (100%)
- The route to each exit must have both climber and floater-only obstacles, i.e sheer walls and deadly drops, but the lemmings cannot both use the same exit.
- You cannot give the floater and the climber to the same lemming
- Finally, you cannot "brute force" a route with builders; that is, you may not simply build over everything
I may not have phrased this very well, so if it doesn't make sense or if it seems too easy (if anyone spots glaring holes in the logic), let me know and I'll try to clarify.
Post by: ccexplore on September 04, 2009, 12:07:50 AM
Post by: Yawg on September 04, 2009, 12:12:06 AM
Sorry about that, Ccexplore. Hopefully it will take you a little longer to solve now?
Post by: ccexplore on September 04, 2009, 12:29:56 AM
Post by: Yawg on September 04, 2009, 12:36:29 AM
. Someday I hope to make a level around this concept and see how many times I can make the 2 lemmings trade off; that is, force the player to alternate which lemming works on each obstacle on each path. I already made a level like this in my 4th level pack, but I wanted see if I could refine the concept further.Attached is the level I made to demonstrate this challenge.
Looks like Ccexplore has the floor for the next challenge
Post by: ccexplore on September 04, 2009, 12:42:27 AM
Post by: ccexplore on September 04, 2009, 12:44:53 AM
Looks like Ccexplore has the floor for the next challenge
I'm going to continue calling open floor at this point. I actually did have an idea for a challenge before Yawg started his, but I haven't managed to make it work yet.
I think I'll need more time to either re-work the challenge requirements so it's more forgiving without making the rules a mess to follow, or maybe actually manage to make it work in its current form. So until then, anyone who wants to jump in, feel free! 
Post by: Fernito on September 04, 2009, 01:14:57 AM
- Two lemmings, but you can give skills only to one of them.
- You must use one of each skill.
- The only saving requirement is that the non-working lemming must reach the exit.
Post by: Yawg on September 04, 2009, 01:23:58 AM
Post by: ccexplore on September 04, 2009, 01:32:33 AM
the next challenge is to do the same thing, only to use 2 of each skill other than climber, floater, and bomber.
One question:
Quote from: Spoiler
Um, if you can only assign skills to 1 lemming, how do you plan to enforce the use of both blockers? (I won't go as far as to say that it's impossible, but definitely a bit tricky.)
Perhaps I'm misreading your requirements (or Fernito's). Note that when I read Fernito's requirements, I interpret the second rule to mean that all solutions to the level must actually use up exactly 1 of each skill with no skills left over.
Post by: Yawg on September 04, 2009, 01:35:23 AM
Post by: Fernito on September 04, 2009, 01:39:09 AM
Post by: ccexplore on September 04, 2009, 01:42:40 AM
Oh come on, its not THAT hard to free a blocker without another lemming. Though I will say its somewhat more difficult to come up with a level whose sole solution actually requires the mechanic in question. Still, nowhere near impossible though.
As I said, it's not impossible, but I want you to fully understand the implications of the way you stated your requirements.
And I should've put it in spoilers since now this is like a hint. I'm sorry about that, let me edit my previous post.
Post by: Yawg on September 04, 2009, 02:37:19 AM
As ccexplore says, you must use one of each skill. So, when you start the level, the skill pannel must look like 11111111, and when you finish it, it must look like 00000000.
This is quite easy with the level I responded with. Replay attached.
And Ccexplore, I'm not sure If I'm missing the point here or what. I really don't think my challenge is that difficult. There are 2 ways I can think of going about it off the top of my head. If you wanted me to understand the comparative difficulty of using the 2nd blocker, I'm well aware of this, as it is the basis of my challenge. Again, not terribly hard, but (i think) a suitable follow-up to the last challenge.
If we're accepting my solution to the previous challenge, then the standing challenge is thus:
2 lemmings, only assign skills to one of them and save the non-worker. 1 climber, 1 bomber, 1 floater, 2 of everything else. All skills must be used.
Post by: ccexplore on September 04, 2009, 02:41:55 AM
2 lemmings, only assign skills to one of them and save the non-worker. 1 climber, 1 bomber, 1 floater, 2 of everything else. All skills must be used.
Darn, when I first read it, I thought you mean no climbers no bomers and no floaters. I had a solution which I now need to go redesign to work those 3 skills into it.
Post by: Fernito on September 04, 2009, 02:46:28 AM
This is quite easy with the level I responded with. Replay attached.
haha, I see... but, I can pass that level without using the blocker, the floater and the bomber. The idea is that you MUST use all skills in order to finish the level, so the only way to finish the level is using all the skills. Wait, I said the same thing twice. Nevermind
Sorry, I know that I didn't wrote that rule specifically, but that's what I meant
Post by: Yawg on September 04, 2009, 02:50:46 AM
EDIT: Do you have a level that solves this challenge yourself, Fernito? I'm not sure if its possible to get a blocker to be integral to ANY solution under these conditions, unless you count getting rid of bomber timing as integral...
Post by: ccexplore on September 04, 2009, 03:25:58 AM
Attached is my solution to Yawg's challenge. Whether it works for the challenge or not depends on whether I've eliminated all but the intended solution from the level, we'll see.
And here's my challenge. Sorry if the resulting level is a little lame, just go with it:
- one entrance and one exit only
- all solution to the level (excluding any that uses the nuke glitch, just in case) has the following pattern of lemmings dead and lemmings saved:
a) first few consecutive lemmings die
b) next few consecutive lemmings make it to the exit
c) next few consecutive lemmings die
d) next few consecutive lemmings make it to the exit
etc.
(Ordering of lemmings based on when they enter the level.)
In other words, groups of consecutive lemmings, with the groups alternating between getting killed and getting saved.
The number of lemmings in each group may differ (both within the same solution to the level and in different solutions), but each group must have at least 5 lemmings, and they must be consecutive lemmings.
- Furthermore, in the pattern above, there must be at least 5 groups in any solution to the level. (Again, excluding nuke glitch solutions, just in case.)
- You cannot use any interactive objects that can kill lemmings!
Post by: chaos_defrost on September 04, 2009, 03:27:54 AM
See the amazing attached image. I'd make it myself but I lost all my editing software and can't remember how to run it.
Post by: Yawg on September 04, 2009, 03:38:00 AM
And now, to bang my head against the wall until I figure out how to go about the next challenge
Post by: Fernito on September 04, 2009, 03:59:04 AM
Post by: Clam on September 04, 2009, 04:03:06 AM
). I have yet another way of dealing with the blocker and bomber at the end of the level. What you do is place the blocker on a thin piece of terrain, aligned with the grid so that the other lemming comes as close as possible before turning back. Set a bomber so that it explodes just as the walker turns, and it will fall through the hole. With a bit of steel you can force the player to do this.Because ClamSpammer hasn't said what should happen when there are two or more ongoing challenges introduced into the thread, I'm going ahead with Yawg's now, so I can finally present my own challenge after all these time.
I had an idea for how to deal with this, but on second thought it's really not a good solution. (I won't mention what it is now.)
To avoid creating too much work for myself, the best I can think of right now is to tell you to wait for confirmation before posting a new challenge - but I really don't want to, since this rule tends to cause games to stagnate. I'm open to suggestions here.
Post by: Yawg on September 04, 2009, 04:11:42 AM
Don't know if this complies with ccexplore's challenge rules.
It looks like this is pretty close, but you can also solve it with only 1 bridge which results in only 4 groups on lemmings (2 groups die, 2 live).
This could probably be fixed by adjusting the number of gaps though.
Post by: ccexplore on September 04, 2009, 04:15:58 AM
Don't know if this complies with ccexplore's challenge rules.
It looks like this is pretty close, but you can also solve it with only 1 bridge which results in only 4 groups on lemmings (2 groups die, 2 live).
This could probably be fixed by adjusting the number of gaps though.
Another problem with your current level, although I'm sure you can fix it, is that the builder himself can be saved, and so if you have the first lemming as builder, he will not die with the next few lemmings as required by the rule.
Post by: Fernito on September 04, 2009, 04:37:20 AM
It looks like this is pretty close, but you can also solve it with only 1 bridge which results in only 4 groups on lemmings (2 groups die, 2 live).
This could probably be fixed by adjusting the number of gaps though.
But didn't the rule that that it must be at least 5 groups?
Another problem with your current level, although I'm sure you can fix it, is that the builder himself can be saved, and so if you have the first lemming as builder, he will not die with the next few lemmings as required by the rule.
But I saved the builder! I don't understand, sorry
Post by: Clam on September 04, 2009, 04:43:59 AM
Post by: ccexplore on September 04, 2009, 04:47:19 AM
But didn't the rule that that it must be at least 5 groups?
Yes, and this means every possible solution to the level (excluding nuke glitches, so you don't have to worry about that) must create at least 5 groups. If any solution exists to your level where you end up with 4 or less groups yet still passes the level's % required, then the level does not satisfy the requirement of my challenge.
Another problem with your current level, although I'm sure you can fix it, is that the builder himself can be saved, and so if you have the first lemming as builder, he will not die with the next few lemmings as required by the rule.
But I saved the builder! I don't understand, sorry
Remember, we're counting consecutive lemmings in terms of when they come out of the entrance trapdoor, not when they reach the exit. So if you have the first lemming build and then he finishes and drops into the crowd, he is still the first lemming in my rules.
So right now in your level, if I make the first lemming out build at the right location, he will survive with the crowd, while the next few lemmings out will die while the bridge is not yet ready. As a result, you end up with the 1st lemming saved, while the 2nd, 3rd, etc. lemmings are killed. Whereas in my rules, the 1st 5 lemmings out must die in any solution to the level.
Post by: Fernito on September 04, 2009, 04:56:45 AM
I'll see how I can fix it.
Post by: Fernito on September 04, 2009, 05:30:12 AM
(I hope).Post by: ccexplore on September 04, 2009, 05:46:47 AM
(The attached replay uses CustLemm mechanics; the exact same solution works in DOS Lemmings as well, if you want I can make a replay for that.)
Perhaps a very small hint for anyone attempting my challenge:
Quote from: just a small hint
keep it simple!!!
Post by: ccexplore on September 04, 2009, 05:54:13 AM
To avoid creating too much work for myself, the best I can think of right now is to tell you to wait for confirmation before posting a new challenge - but I really don't want to, since this rule tends to cause games to stagnate. I'm open to suggestions here.
Perhaps we could impose a certain amount of time we must wait before someone can post the next challenge, kinda like the "bonus question" system back on the now defunct "quiz game" thread. If someone solved the challenge before time's up, then they get to post the next challenge. If no one solved it within the time limit, then it's basically open floor. I haven't decided yet what the rule is when someone finally solves an old challenge that already "expired" its time limit--whether the solver gets to post a new challenge, or whether he needs to wait some amount of time or something.
Post by: Clam on September 04, 2009, 05:57:56 AM
I'll admit, the condition of "any solution" is a tough one. I think the problem with your level is that there are too many slightly different ways to solve it, and this means there are many ways to group the lemmings - some of which are invalid.
Here is my attempt at this challenge. The solution is quite obvious so I won't post a replay.
If this is okay, then I'll post my new challenge shortly.
Post by: ccexplore on September 04, 2009, 06:16:33 AM
Here is my attempt at this challenge. The solution is quite obvious so I won't post a replay.
That's a good sign for my challenge, since as you've reasoned, the more complicated the intended solution is in your level, the more likely you can turn it into something that doesn't follow the rules. That's why I apologize in advance for the resulting levels since I expect them to be worthless for people to actually solve.
I've looked over your level, and I have convinced myself that your level does satisfy all the rules of my challenge. Good job!
Go ahead with the next challenge.Attach is mine. In my defense, even though the level itself is undoubtedly lame, the concept behind it of using a single skill to segregate one stream of lemmings into multiple groups, that is probably something you can make use of in real levels.
Post by: Fernito on September 04, 2009, 06:18:52 AM
I'll post my solution to ccexplore's challenge anyway.
Post by: Fernito on September 04, 2009, 06:21:24 AM
Post by: Clam on September 04, 2009, 06:25:59 AM
Perhaps we could impose a certain amount of time we must wait before someone can post the next challenge, kinda like the "bonus question" system back on the now defunct "quiz game" thread. If someone solved the challenge before time's up, then they get to post the next challenge. If no one solved it within the time limit, then it's basically open floor. I haven't decided yet what the rule is when someone finally solves an old challenge that already "expired" its time limit--whether the solver gets to post a new challenge, or whether he needs to wait some amount of time or something.
I'd suggest 48 hours as a good timeframe for this system.
My greater concern at this point is whether or not we need confirmation before posting a new challenge. If we allow new challenges to be posted without confirmation, then inevitably people will post challenges without having successfully completed one (as has already happened). When that happens, there's nothing you can do to fix it. As such, I think confirmation should be required.
Post by: Yawg on September 04, 2009, 06:27:58 AM
Post by: Clam on September 04, 2009, 06:29:35 AM
New challenge
- One lemming
- To save this lemming, you have to use the miner trick at least 3 times, on the same piece of terrain and in the same direction each time. By "piece of terrain", I don't mean it has to be the same terrain object, but it shouldn't make any real difference which part of this terrain you fall through. EDIT: Evidently this needs further clarification. See my post below.
In case you don't know about the miner trick, here is a nice "before and after" screenshot to demonstrate it. Note that the ground the miner stands on is one pixel thick. If you turn the miner into a blocker just as it starts to swing its axe forwards, it will fall through the terrain without breaking it. Another tip (not essential, but useful to know at least): if the ground is one pixel thick to start with, you can still make this trick work! Assign the miner skill, and then assign the blocker skill VERY quickly afterwards.
Post by: Yawg on September 04, 2009, 07:21:14 AM
If this solution gets a pass, I'll just leave the next challenge to whoever steps up. This puzzle kept me up an hour later than I intended, and since its now 2:30 AM where I live, I'm going to sleep.
Post by: Clam on September 04, 2009, 07:38:12 AM
1) You can mine into the steel to turn around. This lets you cut out most of the level.
2) This shows that I wasn't clear enough about the position requirement of the miner trick. What I mean here is that you miner-glitch through a piece of terrain, and then you come back to the same place and miner-glitch through it again.
Post by: Yawg on September 04, 2009, 02:38:07 PM
Post by: Fernito on September 04, 2009, 04:49:15 PM
Ignore the last thing! Seems like I solved it
(play with Custom Lemmings mechanics).Post by: chaos_defrost on September 04, 2009, 07:05:01 PM
I'll throw a challenge into the ring, if there's a lull in the challenges someone can maybe pick it up:
Deign a level with 4 entrances and 4 exits, set up like Havoc 14 in 4 groups so no one in one group can interact with any other group.
Level must use one of each skill. No restrictions on #of lemmings, and to be saved except that no more than 1 lemming can die in each section and at least one lemming must be saved in each section.
In solving the level, exactly 2 skills much be used to solve each quadrant's mini-puzzle.
After doing that, you must solve the level again, with the same restrictions, except you can't use a skill in a quadrant you used it in last time. So if you used a blocker and a digger in Q1, you have to use two of the other 6 skills for the 2nd solution.
Post by: Fernito on September 04, 2009, 08:41:27 PM
Off topic: What programs are you using to make Lemmings levels nowadays? Lemmix? And how do you replay levels and make a file out of them?
For making my levels I use Lemedit, but for making challenge levels I use Lemmix, since you can test them on the run.
To make replays, just play the level with the playtest feature (F2), and when the last lemming is about to reach the exit press "U". That'll save your replay in the replays folder. To playback a replay, playtest the level in Lemmix, then press Shift+R and select the replay you want to playback in the window that just popped up. That's all, I hope I made it clear enough
Quote
I'll throw a challenge into the ring, if there's a lull in the challenges someone can maybe pick it up
That's a nice challenge. Let's wait until Clam Spammer confirms if my level meets the requirements. If so, we can continue with your challenge
Post by: Clam on September 04, 2009, 08:55:48 PM
OK, here's my try.
Very nice. I like the way you force the miner trick with the miner's lower safe-fall distance. My version (attached) makes you come back to the start a fourth time and then mine through the terrain.
Post by: Fernito on September 04, 2009, 09:07:00 PM
but, I have a question...Wasn't a requirement that the 3 miner-glitches were in the same place?
As you can see, I can finish the level making the trick in 3 different places. My solution forces you to make it in the same place all three times.
I don't know, it's just a question. I don't know if it was actually part of the requirements
Post by: Clam on September 04, 2009, 09:22:05 PM
By "piece of terrain", I don't mean it has to be the same terrain object, but it shouldn't make any real difference which part of this terrain you fall through.
In this case, it doesn't make any difference in terms of the solution whether you mine at the left side of this platform, or the right, or somewhere in between. The outcome is the same regardless.
Post by: Fernito on September 04, 2009, 09:25:53 PM
Well, it was my fault, no need to say sorry Anyway, challenge accomplished? If so, we can go with Insane Steve's challenge.
Post by: Clam on September 04, 2009, 09:50:46 PM
A couple of things I'd like to clear up about the new challenge:
In solving the level, exactly 2 skills much be used to solve each quadrant's mini-puzzle.
Does this mean each quadrant has to be impossible to solve with one skill (or no skills)?
Deign a level with 4 entrances and 4 exits, set up like Havoc 14 in 4 groups so no one in one group can interact with any other group.
How closely do you have to follow the Havoc 14 design? Do you want the rectangular arrangement with steel separating the four parts, or is it okay to (say) have four mini-levels spread out across the map? Also, do the four parts have to be the same size?
Also I should mention that you can have some interaction between groups in Havoc 14. You can get a climber stuck in the wall and then bash out when it reaches the top part. Of course, you can't actually win the level by doing that.
With one of each skill this should be less of a problem.
Post by: ccexplore on September 04, 2009, 10:02:23 PM
After doing that, you must solve the level again, with the same restrictions, except you can't use a skill in a quadrant you used it in last time. So if you used a blocker and a digger in Q1, you have to use two of the other 6 skills for the 2nd solution.
This may need some clarification. Does it mean that there can only be exactly two ways to solve each quadrant, or merely that there are at least two ways using totally different skills to solve each quadrant? I'm assuming the latter at this point.
Post by: chaos_defrost on September 04, 2009, 10:11:46 PM
Post by: ccexplore on September 04, 2009, 11:27:39 PM
), so your second solution is simply to swap the solutions between the copies. Below is the solution in English:Quote from: Spoiler
Leftmost quadrant: 1st lemming out blocks immediately when land. 2nd lemming out will explode, which will both break through the wall and free your blocker.
2nd quadrant from left: 1st lemming out drops down and build towards the wall, then mine through it.
3rd quadrant from left: make the lemming an athlete.
rightmost quadrant: dig down and bash right.
Post by: ccexplore on September 05, 2009, 02:15:33 AM
I'm absolutely fine with you updating the rules to remove the admittedly cheated way I did your challenge; in fact, I think even if you do accept my level for you challenge, I'm probably going to just make the next challenge be the same thing with the following rule clarification:
- When you solve the level the second time around, the pair of 2 skills used in each quadrant cannot be the same as the 2 skills used in any of the 4 qudarants of your first solution.
So for example, if one solution to your level involves making the lemming an athlete in one of the quadrants, then in the second solution, you are not allowed to use the climber and floater together in any one of the quadrants. Instead, the quadrant where you used the climber in your 2nd solution would need to use a non-floater skill, and the floater quadrant in your 2nd solution would need to use a non-climber skill.
To make things easier, you don't have to actually enforce this rule across all possible solutions. As long as you find two solutions to your level that follow the rule above as stated, I don't care that there are additional solutions that don't comply with the rule above (but they still need to comply with other rules, like each quadrant must be solvable with exactly 2 skills).
Post by: chaos_defrost on September 05, 2009, 02:32:36 AM
I'll see if I can come up with a variant that follows the new addition. If I can get Lemmix running
Post by: Clam on September 05, 2009, 02:45:55 AM
You'd notice that two of the quadrants are exact repeats of the other two (don't tell me you didn't see this coming
I saw it coming. Steve wouldn't answer my questions though so I wasn't sure what to do
. Anyway, I'm busy trying to make my next challenge work (plus some non-lemmings stuff that I should be doing instead ) so I might leave this for a while.
Post by: chaos_defrost on September 05, 2009, 03:29:48 AM
Four parts don't have to be the same size, or arranged in a box like Havoc 14. You do need EXACTLY 2 skills for each section. It is preferable if there's no one/zero skill backroutes in the minilevels.
Post by: Fernito on September 05, 2009, 04:08:15 AM
Post by: chaos_defrost on September 05, 2009, 04:09:37 AM
So, what challenge are we doing? The Insane Steve's one or ccexplore's modification of Insane Steve's?
ccexplore already did the one that I put up, just in a somewhat obvious way that I missed when I put it up.
Post by: ccexplore on September 06, 2009, 01:52:33 AM
I'll assume everyone's just busy with real-life stuff this weekend. I'll give it another day or two I guess.Here're some hints for the current challenge (ie. my modification of Insane Steve's) in case someone's actually struggling with it (I didn't think it was that hard):
Quote from: hints
- I think the easiest way to go about this is to design your quadrants so that there are two distinct paths to the exit that involve different skills. For example, maybe you start up high and the exit's at the bottom, and you can either approach the exit from its left or from its right, but doing so requires you to use different skills.
- A likely source of backroutes for these sorts of level is if you manage to use additional skills in one quadrant to save more than required in it, to the point that you can "skip" another quadrant entirely or skipping most of the lemmings you would otherwise need to have saved. Watch out for that.
And yes, I've made my level for this one so I know it's possible.
Post by: Fernito on September 06, 2009, 02:16:53 AM
Post by: ccexplore on September 08, 2009, 01:18:38 AM
I'll make this open floor now so feel free to jump in with the next one. And let me know how long (if) I should wait before I post my own level for the current challenge.
Post by: Dullstar on September 08, 2009, 02:18:59 AM
The level must have at least 1 backroute that isn't hard to find but isn't obvious, either. By the way, I request to see the .lvl files, please, that way I don't have anyone ripping off the "intentional backroute" level I posted in a different thread. You need to describe the intended solution and the backroute, using the spoiler code, just so I can tell when I test the lvl for the criteria if it's something I overlooked. The only glitch allowed is direct drop. One more thing - NO HIDDEN TRAPS!!! (regular traps are okay, though).
I have a level for this... umm... 5 actually. I will upload one of them. Of course, I'm not uploaded again the one I already uploaded.
Post by: ccexplore on September 08, 2009, 03:06:24 AM
Also, it's quite likely that someone can easily find a level from the official games (Lemmings, ONML, etc.) that will satisfy your criteria. Even if you ban those levels, someone could probably create a level based off of an existing level, and then we'd end up with no agreement over how much it must differ from an existing level to count.
Post by: Clam on September 08, 2009, 05:36:47 AM
Well, it's been well over 48 hours and to my surprise, no one got the current challenge, so I guess it'll become "extra credit" or something.
Like you suggested earlier, RL gets in the way sometimes. Even for me (yes, it's rare, but it happens).
Also, it's quite likely that someone can easily find a level from the official games (Lemmings, ONML, etc.) that will satisfy your criteria. Even if you ban those levels, someone could probably create a level based off of an existing level, and then we'd end up with no agreement over how much it must differ from an existing level to count.
There's a reason why I put this rule in place. I want to push this in a new direction, rather than just rehashing stuff that's been done before. And "accidental backroutes" have most certainly been done before.
Post by: ccexplore on September 08, 2009, 08:58:18 AM
Like you suggested earlier, RL gets in the way sometimes. Even for me (yes, it's rare, but it happens).
Still, you weren't the only one here. Do they celebrate Labor Day in NZ too? It was Labor Day weekend in the US but I don't know how many countries celebrate this holiday.
Post by: Clam on September 08, 2009, 09:13:08 AM
Post by: Dullstar on September 08, 2009, 10:04:03 PM
Okay, let me clarify things...
* The backroute must not be too hard to find, but not obvious... for example, I have made a level in which you COULD get through by going to the top of the one way obstacle and bashing through [the "wrong" way, in other words what the game shouldn't let you do], due to the end of the trigger areas. It's not obvious, but if you look, you should notice it.
* Give the lvl file, you may use another level for inspiration, but you may not copy any one else's, even if you change skill amounts or slightly move the terrain.
* To make sure I haven't overlooked something, make sure to put the intended solution and the backroute in hidden text with the SPOILER TAG.
* You may provide a Lemmix replay, with CustLemm view mode (preferably).
Post by: ccexplore on September 08, 2009, 10:24:42 PM
The bolded text suggests you think the spelling L-a-b-o-r is wrong, even if that wasn't the intended effect.
Actually, since ClamSpammer is specifically referring to New Zealand's version of Labour Day, it would be appropriate to spell it following the conventions of that locale. That's what the bold is for.
And I can't believe you'd pick on something as innocuous as a bolded letter.
==================
And I don't think you fully understand the problem with your rules. At a certain level, things like "obviousness", "difficulty to find", "similarity to existing levels" cannot be measured in an objective manner. (Note for example that it might not be that difficult to remake a level using a different style, so the terrain is completely different yet conceptually the same.) As such, anyone who tries your challenge would either need to be able to read your mind, or risk creating something that in their opinion fits the rules, but in your opinion doesn't.
Of course, anyone who feels this is an acceptable risk is welcome to go for it. I'll try to provide an alternate challenge that has more objective rules, although at the moment it looks like interest in this game has died off rather suddenly, so I'll probably give this a rest until enough people clamor for something.
Post by: Clam on September 08, 2009, 10:37:11 PM
I'll try to solve your "extra credit" puzzle first, so there's no hurry to invent a new one.
Post by: Dullstar on September 08, 2009, 11:06:01 PM
Okay, because of this disagreement here, we'll give effort points if they explain the routes in a block of "spoiler" text, so they'll get equal credit for trying if they don't succeed.
Post by: Yawg on September 09, 2009, 02:15:47 AM
I suggest amending the rules to correct this; All challenges must be made up of a number of objective conditions. That is, conditions that anyone could follow in order to judge an attempt, not just the person that created the challenge.
While the current challenge in question isn't too ambiguous, the current wording of the rules allows for more extreme examples, like asking for "a small puzzle that can be solved quickly". This is obviously an exaggeration, but you can see why we would want to prevent this sort of thing.
Post by: Yawg on September 09, 2009, 03:17:58 AM
SPOILER:
Quote from: Spoiler
Primary solution: separate a lemming and have him bash and build to the exit.
Back route: Build inside the box and then bash and build quickly to climb to the exit through the wall.
Post by: Clam on September 09, 2009, 05:24:52 AM
I suggest amending the rules to correct this; All challenges must be made up of a number of objective conditions. That is, conditions that anyone could follow in order to judge an attempt, not just the person that created the challenge.
Done. This is what I meant from the start, of course.
Thankfully, everyone has managed to play along until now.
Post by: Clam on September 09, 2009, 11:48:33 AM
If this passes good, and we're done with Dullstar's challenge, then it's open floor. I have a crazy idea for a challenge, but... well, it's too crazy even for me
Post by: ccexplore on September 09, 2009, 12:44:40 PM
Post by: ccexplore on September 09, 2009, 12:48:33 PM
I have a crazy idea for a challenge, but... well, it's too crazy even for me
Wow, now you really got my attention.
We'll keep it open floor, but why not tell us your idea anyway, and see if anyone manages to actually make it work? Sorta like another extra credit.
Post by: namida on September 09, 2009, 01:25:38 PM
Build a level that can be solved in 8 or fewer of ANY single skill, and can also be solved with no more than one of each skill.
To clarify, this means:
1) It would be possible if you're given 8 climbers and nothing else.
2) It would be possible if you're given 8 floaters and nothing else.
3) It would be possible if you're given 8 bombers and nothing else.
4) And so on, for every other skill. PLUS:
5) It would be possible if you're given 1 of each skill.
The solutions do not have to use all 8 skills. For example, if it can be solved with just 6 blockers, this is fine.
Rules:
1) No more than two entrances
2) No more than four exits
3) None of the qualifying solutions may use glitches (except direct drop, if you count that as a glitch - I don't)
4) You must be required to save at least 5 lemmings.
5) All solutions must require at least 3 skills.
Post by: Dullstar on September 09, 2009, 10:00:05 PM
Sorry about the lame idea for a challenge...namida's shouldn't be too hard... but I don't have too much time for Lemmix editing to make a good looking level. Well...
Yes, I know the file attached is called Reverse-a-Dig and it's a Cheapo level. I just made it. Boy, I hope Cheapo is allowed in this contest... if not, I've submitted it anyways.
EDIT: Probably not, so I'll redo it in Lemmix...
UPDATE: Done! Same solution... I think it turned out slightly differently though, but the solution is not altered.
Do I have the floor now? I'll throw my newer idea out there.
The level must be able to be beaten in three of the challenge threads. I believe these are the ones that I remember that don't deal with "minimum skills," "minimum time," and whatnot.
- What levels can be beaten with a 99 release rate?
- What levels can be beaten with only one of each skill? (note: This one may require editing the level, the level's default skill set does NOT need to work with with challenge)
- What levels can be beaten in under 1 minute?
- What levels can be beaten without assigning multiple skills to one lemming?
- What levels can be beaten without assigning skills to more than one lemming?
- What levels can be beaten with only one type of skill?
Don't get too hard though! Too hard will be if both Clam Spammer and ccexplore can't solve it. Direct drop is the only glitch allowed. Please note your solution in spoiler text.
Post by: Clam on September 09, 2009, 10:30:13 PM
Wow, now you really got my attention.
Ah ha. Got it working now. I'll post this when I next get an opportunity. I hope it's not too difficult - I don't think it is, though.
Post by: Clam on September 09, 2009, 10:39:17 PM
Do I have the floor now? I'll throw my newer idea out there.
The level must be able to be beaten in three of the challenge threads. I believe these are the ones that I remember that don't deal with "minimum skills," "minimum time," and whatnot.
Um, Dullstar? Have you forgotten what we said about your previous challenge (besides the fact that the rules were too subjective)?
Also, it's quite likely that someone can easily find a level from the official games (Lemmings, ONML, etc.) that will satisfy your criteria. Even if you ban those levels, someone could probably create a level based off of an existing level, and then we'd end up with no agreement over how much it must differ from an existing level to count.
This applies here too. There are a lot of original levels that can be done with three, or even all six, of those challenge conditions. It might be possible to create a new challenge by combining these in a way that hasn't been done before (saying "yes" or "no" to each one in turn), but as it is, this is nothing new.
Post by: ccexplore on September 09, 2009, 11:16:21 PM
Yes, I know the file attached is called Reverse-a-Dig and it's a Cheapo level. I just made it. Boy, I hope Cheapo is allowed in this contest... if not, I've submitted it anyways.
EDIT: Probably not, so I'll redo it in Lemmix...
UPDATE: Done! Same solution... I think it turned out slightly differently though, but the solution is not altered.
Your level does not satisfy namida's challenge. If you read the rules better, you'd note that your level needs to have at least 9 distinct solutions:
1) a solution using only up to 8 climbers and nothing else
2) a solution using only up to 8 floaters and nothing else
3) a solution using only up to 8 blockers and nothing else
4) a solution using only up to 8 exploders and nothing else
5) a solution using only up to 8 builders and nothing else
6) a solution using only up to 8 bashers and nothing else
7) a solution using only up to 8 miners and nothing else
8) a solution using only up to 8 diggers and nothing else
9) a solution using only 1 of each skill
Unless I overlooked something, right now your level only handles #7 and #8, and I guess #9 (although I think we need some clarification from namida on #9, like whether skill-wasting counts). [edit: actually, probably not even #7 or #8, since you're required to enforce a 3-skill minimum, while your level right now can be solved with just one digger or just 2 miners.]
Post by: ccexplore on September 10, 2009, 12:30:15 AM
Create a level that:
1) has no more than 2 entrance objects
2) has no more than 4 exit objects
3) number of lemmings to be saved must be 5 or higher
4) the level needs to have 9 distinct solutions:
a) if you change the skillset so that it is only 8 climbers and nothing else, keeping the initial RR, time limit, number of lemmings, and number to saved the same (as well as the terrain, objects, and steel), the resulting level must have at least one solution that uses 3 or more climbers and no glitches.
In addition, there must be no solutions using 2 or less climbers and no glitches in the resulting level.
It's acceptable if there are solutions using 2 or less climbers but also requires glitches in the resulting level.
b) if you change the skillset so that it is only 8 floaters and nothing else, keeping the initial RR, time limit, number of lemmings, and number to saved exactly the same (as well as the terrain, objects, and steel), the resulting level must have at least one solution that uses 3 or more floaters and no glitches.
In addition, there must be no solutions using 2 or less floaters and no glitches in the resulting level.
It's acceptable if there are solutions using 2 or less floaters but also requires glitches in the resulting level.
c-h) <repeat the above template for "blockers", "exploders", "builders", "bashers", "miners", and "diggers">
i) if you change the skillset so that it gives you exactly one of each skill, keeping the initial RR, time limit number of lemmings, and number to saved exactly the same (as well as the terrain, objects, and steel), the resulting level must have at least one solution that uses up all 8 skills and no glitches.
In addition, there must be no solutions using less than 8 skills and no glitches in the resulting level.
It's acceptable if there are solutions using less than 8 skills but also requires glitches in the resulting level.
Two points I need namida to clarify on is:
- whether it is acceptable or not that there is a solution using less than required number of skills but also uses glitches. For example, we clearly don't allow the all-climbers version of the level to be solvable with only 2 climbers and no glitches, but what about 2 climbers plus glitches? Or similarly, whether it's acceptable that the 1-of-each-skill version of the level allows for a 7-skill solution using glitches. My rewording assumes "yes, that's okay" as the answer to all that, because in your original rules, you talked about "all qualifying solutions" when you talk about glitches.
- whether for the 1-of-each-skill version of the level, you actually required 8 skills as the minimum, or just 3 of the 8 skills as your original rules imply. I'm reading between the lines and assume that you meant to require an 8-skill minimum for that part of the rules, not 3.
- there will likely be many questions regarding what exactly is a glitch and not a glitch, and unfortunately, to spell it all out explicitly might turn the rules into a page-long tome. I'll talk about this in another post
[edit: loosen the condition regarding glitches and number of skills]
[edit2: formatted the rules to improve readability]
[edit3: added issues with defining glitches]
[edit4: forgot to mention "time limit" as part of the level stats that are fixed across all 9 versions of the level]
Post by: ccexplore on September 10, 2009, 01:01:58 AM
* nuke glitch is a glitch (nuking the level before all lemmings are released, the game only counts the percentage based on lemmings released so far, not total number of lemmings the level gives you)
* direct-drop is not a glitch (a lemming landing on an exit trigger from a too-high fall it would normally splat and die from)
* using blockers to cancel out the effects of steel areas and object trigger areas is a glitch
* using the trick of separating the blocker's field from the blocker lemming itself is a glitch
* okay, here's one that's a pain to decide: terrain pixels being removed that falls under a steel area or the trigger area of a one-way-wall. The problem is that Lemmings, unlike Cheapo. fundamentally does not work that way. Terrain pixels removal is an all-or-nothing proposition, and the decision rests on things like whether the lemming was standing on steel, or has steel/OWW in front of him at a certain distance.
There's unfortunately a whole spectrum of examples, some of which most would agree glitchy, others not so clear cut. Since right now we say we don't care about any glitch solutions that uses 2 or less (or 7 or less) skills, we could take a hardline approach and say that in the 3+/7+ skill solution with no glitches, you're not allowed to remove any terrain pixels that falls under a steel area, or the trigger area of a one-way-wall when the lemming is facing the opposite way. Note that this is much stricter than usual, since something like having a miner turn when he mines into steel, that can easily break this "strict" form of the rule, since a few pixels covered by the steel area is removed at the miner stroke that hits steel.
Other approaches is to either say we don't care, or have some really detailed conditions like "at most one stroke of the miner/basher/digger can remove terrain pixels covered by steel/OWW-the-wrong-way". This still leaves the question of exploders.
* all forms of miner-positioning glitches are not allowed. Even this one is really hard to specify exactly, but we'll say that it's a glitch if there is ground for the miner to stand on, but he falls anyway because of the positioning error. There's also the issue that the miner can skip over one-pixel-wide gaps because of the way the game checks for falling for the miner.
* using blockers to push lemmings into or through walls is a glitch
* the sliding glitch (making a lemming jump up a 6-or-less-pixels-tall step, but using a builder to turn it into a taller step before the jump is complete, the lemming keeps jumping nonetheless) is a glitch
Ugh, have I covered everything yet? Probably not.
For example, what about the various cases where the game lets you assign skills while the lemming is standing on thin air? What about the lemming started off on ground, but while carrying out the skill (eg. bashing or building), the ground is removed in the middle of laying the build brick or removing terrain?You can begin to see what a nightmare it is to fully define what is or isn't a glitch. I think the only way to handle this is to say that one tries to avoid the glitches, but leaves it for namida to decide whether something's a glitch or not, within reason. I know this smacks of subjectivity but I see little other choice.
Hopefully, in practice this might not be much of problem, given that many of the glitches you would probably need to go out of your way to enable it to happen in a level.
Post by: ccexplore on September 10, 2009, 01:06:34 AM
A glitch means the same solution (sans timing differences) does not work on Cheapo.
I think in most cases, it would be obviously enough to tell whether something works on Cheapo or not without actually testing it, but I agree while extremely simple to define, it is perhaps not the ideal way to clarify the rule about no glitches.
Post by: ccexplore on September 10, 2009, 04:39:33 AM
I know the level handles all 9 types of solutions; the main question is whether there are any backroutes I overlooked that somehow allows solving the level with only 2 of one type of skills, or with less than 8 skills when given only 1 of each type.
Lemmix replays are in the zip file (CustLemm style). For benefit of those who don't/can't use Lemmix, I've included a screenshot of the level. The fixed level stats are: RR 99, save 8 of 16.
Anyone who needs more information on the solutions can just PM me.
Post by: Clam on September 10, 2009, 07:16:31 AM
Post by: namida on September 10, 2009, 07:55:06 AM
Quote
- whether it is acceptable or not that there is a solution using less than required number of skills but also uses glitches. For example, we clearly don't allow the all-climbers version of the level to be solvable with only 2 climbers and no glitches, but what about 2 climbers plus glitches? Or similarly, whether it's acceptable that the 1-of-each-skill version of the level allows for a 7-skill solution using glitches. My rewording assumes "yes, that's okay" as the answer to all that, because in your original rules, you talked about "all qualifying solutions" when you talk about glitches.
Acceptable. Glitch solutions don't count either way. Actually, it doesn't even matter if there's another solution that plain and simple uses 2 or less, as long as you can do it in 3 without any skill wasting. Using Fun 3 as an example, skill wasting would be putting a second blocker just to the left of the first one, just to use up another skill. Using the 5-blocker route instead of the 3-blocker route would not be skill wasting, since each blocker still performs a function.
Quote
- whether for the 1-of-each-skill version of the level, you actually required 8 skills as the minimum, or just 3 of the 8 skills as your original rules imply. I'm reading between the lines and assume that you meant to require an 8-skill minimum for that part of the rules, not 3.
No, I meant that you need 3.
And yes, ccexplore, your level most certianly does qualify. Took me a while to work out the one-of-each solution too.
Post by: Clam on September 10, 2009, 07:58:00 AM
Post by: namida on September 10, 2009, 08:01:06 AM
Post by: ccexplore on September 10, 2009, 10:30:38 AM
Do I have the floor now? I'll throw my newer idea out there.
The level must be able to be beaten in three of the challenge threads. I believe these are the ones that I remember that don't deal with "minimum skills," "minimum time," and whatnot.
Um, Dullstar? Have you forgotten what we said about your previous challenge (besides the fact that the rules were too subjective)?
To be fair, I think it can be made objective if Dullstar simply spells out the exact conditions required by each challenge thread, which I think he pretty much did.
The funny thing is though, I think my level for namida's challenge actually covers every challenge condition Dullstar has listed.
Then again, so is a level that simply sends a stream of lemmings directly to the exit, since Dullstar neglected to say anything about wasting skills or level being too easy.
Post by: Clam on September 10, 2009, 10:54:33 AM
do you have a new challenge for us?
Post by: ccexplore on September 10, 2009, 11:01:13 AM
As expected, I'd like you to issue the next challenge that you had been working on.
Post by: Clam on September 10, 2009, 11:20:02 AM
Build a level where...
You have to hit the nuke, and then use a bomber, in order to complete the level.
The level must require at least 10 lemmings to be saved.
No blockers allowed. (For reasons that will be clear to many of you)
Or, to clarify a little by rewording the first point - if the level can be completed in any way that doesn't use a bomber after the nuke is launched, then it fails the challenge.
Post by: namida on September 10, 2009, 11:53:01 AM
Post by: Clam on September 10, 2009, 09:03:52 PM
Post by: ccexplore on September 11, 2009, 04:49:11 AM
To properly understand how my level works, you must examine the steel areas. You'd note that pretty much the entire level is covered in steel except for two key spots. Also, there are two isolated pixels of terrain that can be hard to see with the exit object being displayed over them, one at the exit's trigger area's upper-left corner, and another one a couple pixels up, which are also key to the design of the level.
If you need an explanation of why the level works the way it does, PM me. The level should do what you asked as long as I haven't overlooked something. Attached Lemmix replay recorded with CustLemm style.
Post by: Clam on September 11, 2009, 05:31:57 AM
Here is my (somewhat more "normal") level for this challenge.
Post by: Fernito on September 11, 2009, 07:05:21 AM
Post by: ccexplore on September 11, 2009, 07:18:23 AM
I think I might be able to remove some of the steel areas in my level, but some of the "artificial" aspects will probably remain.It looks like I'll be somewhat busy with real life stuff for the next few days, so I'll call open floor yet again, and I think I will also sit out the next challenge or two. It's about time for someone else to win the next challenge.
Post by: namida on September 11, 2009, 10:17:15 AM
You are only allowed one entrance and one exit.
You must not have exactly one climber. None is fine, two or more is fine. The same applies to floaters.
Both lemmings must use at least 4 skills each. (As usual, without skill wasting)
It must not be possible to send them both via the same route. However, it's acceptable (but not required) to make it so that either lemming can go either way as long as they both go different ways. It's also acceptable (but again, not required) to have more than two possible routes, as long as the two lemmings must each take a different one.
Any release rate and time limit is fine. Any skillset is also fine, as long as it follows the rule above about climbers and floaters.
EDIT: As usual, glitch solutions do not count either way.
Post by: Fernito on September 11, 2009, 04:22:27 PM
Post by: Pooty on September 11, 2009, 05:32:27 PM
Post by: Fernito on September 11, 2009, 05:57:04 PM
Unfortunately, this level doesn't meet the requirements. Both lemmings can reach the exit using the same route. I've attached a replay.
Oops! How embarrassing
Here's the fixed version.
Post by: Pooty on September 11, 2009, 06:15:13 PM
Post by: Fernito on September 11, 2009, 06:21:00 PM
The new steel part you added hasn't been "steeled", and can be bashed through along the way so he can return. Apart from that, I can't find any other way to ruin your day.
AHHH
hahahaha
OK, the weird thing is that I actually "steeled" it (you can check it in Lemmix). So, your bashing through steel solution would fit into the glitch category I guess.
Post by: chaos_defrost on September 11, 2009, 06:42:16 PM
Basically, this. 1 builder, 8 bashers are skills. RR 99. First builds, 2nd has no choice but to take the low road.
Post by: Fernito on September 11, 2009, 07:28:54 PM
I need to get Lemmix working again
Basically, this. 1 builder, 8 bashers are skills. RR 99. First builds, 2nd has no choice but to take the low road.
But, you have 8 bashers. If you don't build, both lemmings will fall to the lower story, and you can make them bash the pillars together.
Post by: chaos_defrost on September 11, 2009, 07:50:43 PM
I think what I can do then is make the first three pillars on top thin, and the bottom four thick. Then the fourth wall on top covers the "meeting" point so one lemming is forced to take the high road to eliminate this obstacle.
Or I guess I can make the top road's obstacles diggers or something like that. Give me a second.
Post by: ccexplore on September 11, 2009, 08:30:35 PM
Post by: Fernito on September 11, 2009, 08:35:40 PM
I promised to sit out on this challenge and I will, but I can't help but say that it would've taken literally less than a minute for me to throw together a level that satisfy the challenge. [edit: whoops, I didn't read the 4-skills-each requirement, so maybe a few minutes not one] To avoid spoiling the current challenge though, I won't say anything more about it, at least not until someone has finally gotten the challenge.
But my level complies with the rules, doesn't it?
Post by: ccexplore on September 11, 2009, 08:42:50 PM
, but that would've just required me to add more terrain pieces I think.
Post by: ccexplore on September 11, 2009, 09:33:35 PM
Post by: Dullstar on September 11, 2009, 09:51:26 PM
Those rules weren't close to being clear. Plus, this is what happened when I made a challenge:
1st attempt: Too subjective, or whatever you guys said.
2nd attempt: Decided what the point of too hard would be so everyone would know. I may as well start the "non-strict level design game" if that's the case.
Post by: ccexplore on September 11, 2009, 10:07:31 PM
I think one lesson we've come up with is that it's easy to keep rules objective, but really hard to make rules fully unambiguous, as the latter pretty much requires one to come up with a fully mathematically rigorous definition for everything, and then the rules would end up reading like a college-level analysis (basically, theoretical calculus if you will) textbook. You won't like it.
So I'll agree that it is somewhat rare to have cases where rules are fully unambiguous, but that's different from requiring rules to be objective.
You're welcome to start whatever new threads you want, but I don't think you'll get anywhere by starting a thread out of arguing with others. If you recall, the last time an argument erupted over the "quiz game" thread, eventually someone spawned an alternate thread, but ultimately both threads died.
Post by: ccexplore on September 11, 2009, 10:11:39 PM
It's not clear to me in the first place why you'd care for solutions that aren't "too hard to find" or stuff like that. If you think you need help confirming someone's level as meeting your challenge because you might not be able to solve the level yourself or to evaluate possible backroutes sufficiently, just ask for help.
Post by: Pooty on September 11, 2009, 11:23:26 PM
I've tested this level vigorously for backroutes (it probably shows
). It's also likely that Fernito's effort will pass this challenge anyway, but whatever the outcome, even if you so happen to find a backroute I didn't consider, it was good fun, and I might try my hand at level editing once more.
Post by: Dullstar on September 12, 2009, 12:33:12 AM
HOWEVER, I would make sure that challenge descriptions at least make sense. On namida's, I would have made it clear that it had to contain all nine, not just one.
Post by: ccexplore on September 12, 2009, 12:43:23 AM
IMHO, the only way someone could misread that challenge was if they only bothered to read the first two or so sentences. Let's take a look:
Build a level that can be solved in 8 or fewer of ANY single skill, and can also be solved with no more than one of each skill.
To clarify, this means:
1) It would be possible if you're given 8 climbers and nothing else.
2) It would be possible if you're given 8 floaters and nothing else.
3) It would be possible if you're given 8 bombers and nothing else.
4) And so on, for every other skill. PLUS:
5) It would be possible if you're given 1 of each skill.
I could see someone who only read the green part to misinterpreted it as "pick just one type of skill and make the level solvable with 8 or fewer number of that skill" instead of "make the level solvable with 8 or fewer numbers of one type of skill, no matter which type you pick". However, after reading all the stuff following "To clarify...", it's hard for me to see how someone could still misread it. I'm sorry.
Post by: Dullstar on September 12, 2009, 02:13:19 AM
Post by: Fernito on September 12, 2009, 06:38:11 AM
) to move up to the next challenge.
Post by: namida on September 12, 2009, 09:21:35 AM
Post by: Clam on September 12, 2009, 10:08:10 AM
And I was about to hand this over to you, Fernito, but I found a problem with your level that no one has managed to spot yet. You can turn the lemmings around by making them bash into the steel - see the attached replay. And, unlike the other issue with bashing through steel, I'm fairly sure this doesn't qualify as a glitch - just an intended mechanic used in an unusual way. See attached replay.
So, the next question is: does Pooty's level qualify? (Namida, you'll have to confirm or reject this.)
EDIT: It doesn't, see second attached replay. (At least I don't think this qualifies as "different paths")
Post by: namida on September 12, 2009, 10:23:07 AM
Post by: Clam on September 12, 2009, 10:48:17 AM
Post by: namida on September 12, 2009, 11:17:35 AM
Post by: Pooty on September 12, 2009, 12:28:54 PM
In the meantime, I did find another backroute, and fixed it here. Is that the same as yours, or am I barking up the wrong tree?
[Edit: Oh wait, you're using Custom Lemmings, aren't you? My fix killed your replay, but it didn't stop the backroute. Hmm.. this is going to be a problem because my level was designed with the original mechanics in mind.]
[Yet another edit: I think this should work. I've added a trap.]
Post by: Fernito on September 12, 2009, 03:24:27 PM
hahaha, j/k! PS: Let's see if you can backroute the 7th and last level of the pack you're reviewing
Post by: geoo on September 12, 2009, 04:22:06 PM
Also a cheap level hopefully enforcing two separate paths this time.
I got some challenge ideas, however still have to solve them myself.
So in case my level is valid, whether I can provide a challenge or not depends on whether I'll have managed to solve one of my own challenges at the point of confirmation.
Post by: Fernito on September 12, 2009, 04:33:47 PM
Seems like there isn't possible backroutes in your level.
Post by: Pooty on September 12, 2009, 05:06:01 PM
Post by: Clam on September 12, 2009, 10:22:36 PM
haha, Clam Spammer, you turned out to be a real nightmare for me! You've found backroutes on every one of my Custom Levels, and then in this challenge
PS: Let's see if you can backroute the 7th and last level of the pack you're reviewing
I'm afraid I have bad news for you... but unfortunately I can't review it for another 8 hours unless someone else jumps in. I'll post a replay then.
And I'm yet to find a backroute to "Clonic Inferno". So only 6 out of 7
Both of the new levels seem OK to me. Hopefully we'll see a new challenge shortly
Post by: geoo on September 13, 2009, 06:17:17 AM
EDIT: Level set up.
Create a 1-of-each-skill level with exactly 8 lemmings. The amount of lemmings required to be saved must be at least 3. The level must contain exactly one entrance.
Any successful solution to it must meet the following criterion: To each of the 8 lemmings, exactly 1 skill is assigned. (Bombing by using the nuke is not considered assigning a skill.)
Post by: Minim on September 13, 2009, 10:58:13 AM
Here's my (closest) attempt, I like your idea.
Post by: Clam on September 13, 2009, 11:05:24 AM
Ok, here's my challenge, I've sketched out the level for it, but I've yet to create it in Lemmix though.
EDIT: Level set up.
Create a 1-of-each-skill level with exactly 8 lemmings. The amount of lemmings required to be saved must be at least 3. The level must contain exactly one entrance.
Any successful solution to it must meet the following criterion: To each of the 8 lemmings, exactly 1 skill is assigned. (Bombing by using the nuke is not considered assigning a skill.)
I was working on the exact same challenge before you posted that. Well, almost - my version would have had you save 7 of 8 (or more, but still losing only one) with one exit. Otherwise, identical.
You know what they say about great minds
Post by: Pooty on September 13, 2009, 11:19:37 AM
(My first post of the level design game (ridiculous, I know))
Here's my attempt, I like your idea.
Unfortunately, by using the CustLemm physics, this level can be completed by assigning no skills at all.
Not that I can do any better, mind you. I can't come up with a plan on conquering this challenge.
Post by: Minim on September 13, 2009, 11:37:14 AM
(My first post of the level design game (ridiculous, I know))
Here's my attempt, I like your idea.
Unfortunately, by using the CustLemm physics, this level can be completed by assigning no skills at all.
I was using Lemmix and the lemmings do splat when they hit the lower steel platform. Anyway, I'll try again (which I don't really want to do for the sake of Custlemm
)
Post by: geoo on September 13, 2009, 04:06:37 PM
Haha
I was working on the exact same challenge before you posted that. Well, almost - my version would have had you save 7 of 8 (or more, but still losing only one) with one exit. Otherwise, identical.
You know what they say about great minds
I think requiring to save at least 7 (or exactly 7, as 8 wouldn't work quite well under these circumstances
) is a tad more difficult than allowing anything equal or higher than 3, as you have more lemming interaction from freeing the blocker, and then the blocker which you cannot assign a skill to anymore. My level requires to save 6 using a unique attribute for each skill to save that lemming (which the blocker would lack), though I think I might be able to adapt it to require 7.To minimac: even with the original lemmings mechanics, your level can be backrouted using direct drop:
Post by: Minim on September 13, 2009, 06:53:49 PM
I was working on the exact same challenge before you posted that. Well, almost - my version would have had you save 7 of 8 (or more, but still losing only one) with one exit. Otherwise, identical.
You know what they say about great minds
Err... which post are you talking about? My level or geoo's challenge?
Post by: Pooty on September 13, 2009, 07:59:18 PM
(geoo's challenge).
Post by: Clam on September 17, 2009, 09:45:13 AM
I mentioned that I intended to make a level that saves 7 out of 8, but at the time geoo posted the challenge I had a level where you can save 6, and I didn't bother to change it after that (since this would have required rearranging everything).
Post by: namida on September 17, 2009, 10:04:58 AM
Make a level, one entrance, one exit, must save at least 50%, time limit, release rate and other objects are at your discretion.
This level must give you one of each skill.
There must be at least 8 combinations of exactly two skills that can be used to solve the level. Between these 8 combinations, at least 6 different skills must be used.
For those who find me hard to understand, the level must have a solution for at least 8 of these skillsets:
1 Climber, 1 Floater, 0 of everything else
1 Climber, 1 Bomber, 0 of everything else
1 Climber, 1 Blocker, 0 of everything else
1 Climber, 1 Builder, 0 of everything else
1 Climber, 1 Basher, 0 of everything else
1 Climber, 1 Miner, 0 of everything else
1 Climber, 1 Digger, 0 of everything else
1 Floater, 1 Bomber, 0 of everything else
1 Floater, 1 Blocker, 0 of everything else
1 Floater, 1 Builder, 0 of everything else
1 Floater, 1 Basher, 0 of everything else
1 Floater, 1 Miner, 0 of everything else
1 Floater, 1 Digger, 0 of everything else
1 Bomber, 1 Blocker, 0 of everything else (note: using the blocker solely to time the bomber counts as skill wasting, however, it is acceptable for the blocker to provide another function and then also be the one that gets bombed)
1 Bomber, 1 Builder, 0 of everything else
1 Bomber, 1 Basher, 0 of everything else
1 Bomber, 1 Miner, 0 of everything else
1 Bomber, 1 Digger, 0 of everything else
1 Blocker, 1 Builder, 0 of everything else
1 Blocker, 1 Basher, 0 of everything else
1 Blocker, 1 Miner, 0 of everything else
1 Blocker, 1 Digger, 0 of everything else
1 Builder, 1 Basher, 0 of everything else
1 Builder, 1 Miner, 0 of everything else
1 Builder, 1 Digger, 0 of everything else
1 Basher, 1 Miner, 0 of everything else
1 Basher, 1 Digger, 0 of everything else
1 Miner, 1 Digger, 0 of everything else
Also, your 8 solutions must, combined, use at least 6 different skills. For example, the following set of possibilities would not qualify:
Climber+Floater, Climber+Bomber, Climber+Blocker, Climber+Builder, Floater+Bomber, Floater+Blocker, Floater+Builder
This is because the only skills used are Climbers, Floaters, Bombers, Blockers and Builders, which is only 5 skills. However, if there was one more solution which involved a basher, miner, or digger, it would then qualify.
Post by: geoo on September 17, 2009, 02:10:14 PM
This seems to have gone cold, so I'll post my level and call open floor.Well, I guess back to the drawing board
I mentioned that I intended to make a level that saves 7 out of 8, but at the time geoo posted the challenge I had a level where you can save 6, and I didn't bother to change it after that (since this would have required rearranging everything).
, as I got a solution in which one lemming is assigned both basher and bomber:
Post by: Clam on September 17, 2009, 08:37:24 PM
At any rate, it was time for a new challenge.Here's version 2.
Post by: geoo on September 18, 2009, 02:16:09 AM
Anyway, I guess it's time for the next challenge, so below is the level I designed for my challenge.
The second one is a slight adjustment to make the level require 7/8; seems somewhat backroute-prone though.
Post by: chaos_defrost on September 18, 2009, 02:17:33 AM
And maybe I'll make a full new level pack. If I can come up with 10 good ideas for levels
Post by: namida on September 18, 2009, 09:14:45 AM
Post by: Clam on September 18, 2009, 09:27:41 AM
Found yet another backroute to your level.
Well this sucks.
Good job finding that though. I guess it would be enough to just extend that steel piece?
Post by: Minim on September 22, 2009, 04:14:21 PM
Try and make a level with these rules:
* A digger must fall through the bomber's crater. If the digger tries to get all the way through the floor the level would be failed.
* There must only be one exit.
* Also, this must be an 80-lemming level with one lost.
Post by: Yawg on September 22, 2009, 09:08:19 PM
OK. New challenge everyone!
Try and make a level with these rules:
* A digger must fall through the bomber's crater. If the digger tries to get all the way through the floor the level would be failed.
* There must only be one exit.
* Also, this must be an 80-lemming level with one lost.
Could you explain the 1st condition again? Does the lemming have to dig through a bombers crater or dig and then fall? I don't understand.
Post by: Minim on September 23, 2009, 06:06:35 AM
Could you explain the 1st condition again? Does the lemming have to dig through a bombers crater or dig and then fall? I don't understand.
It's dig and then fall through the crater.
Post by: Clam on September 28, 2009, 06:28:51 AM
Here is my solution to the current challenge.
Post by: Minim on September 28, 2009, 06:39:16 AM
Play: The level is Impossible!
So I moved the whole terrain one pixel to the left to make it work. Anyway, nice level.
Post by: Clam on September 28, 2009, 06:56:55 AM
). I just remembered that CustLemm drops your lemmings slightly further to the right - which makes quite a difference I'm guessing by your reaction that the level is OK other than this? If that's the case then I'll post my new challenge shortly.
Post by: Clam on September 28, 2009, 08:04:13 AM
- One entrance
- 50 lemmings, 5 to be saved (10%)
- 10 blockers, and no other skills available
- Any solution must use at least 3 blockers (just like the classic level)
- And here's the kicker - It must be impossible to save more than 5 lemmings.
- No traps or water
- No nuke (this includes "counterexample" solutions - I will not consider the challenge failed as a result of a nuke-related backroute)
- No blocking through walls (same deal here as with the nuke)
- You must not use the time limit to limit the number of lemmings that can be saved (i.e. treat it as if there is unlimited time available)
Post by: geoo on September 28, 2009, 11:44:06 AM
There's still namida's challenge open which got omitted as minimac posted a challenge without solving the previous one. I suggest to use it when the next 'open floor' occurs.
(In case my level doesn't comply with the specified rules, ignore the following.)
I think this one is very tough, at least it was very tough for me to make a level for it:
Create a 1-of-each-skill level with exactly 1 entrance which complies with the following rules:
- There may be no successful solution using 6 or less skills for it
- For any 7 of the skills, there must be a successful solution (thus 8 different solutions of that kind, each leaving out 1 of the skills) to the level
- However there may be no 7-skill solution that saves more than the required percentage
- There must be a solution saving more than the required percentage (which uses all 8 skills)
Post by: ccexplore on September 28, 2009, 01:10:18 PM
I'm not 100% sure whether it really needs 3 blockers. If there's a 2-blocker solution to my level, it should still be obvious how the level could be modified to enforce the 3-blocker minimum.
Post by: Clam on September 28, 2009, 11:36:40 PM
I assume blocking through walls means pushing lemmings through a wall using a blocker. Otherwise my level could be considered requiring 'blocking through a ceiling'.
Yeah, I meant pushing lemmings through a wall.
Both levels are acceptable as far as I can tell.
.
Post by: ccexplore on September 28, 2009, 11:40:41 PM
I assume blocking through walls means pushing lemmings through a wall using a blocker. Otherwise my level could be considered requiring 'blocking through a ceiling'.
Yeah, I meant pushing lemmings through a wall.
Both levels are acceptable as far as I can tell.
where's your level?
Post by: Clam on September 28, 2009, 11:49:16 PM
This is how to do it without using a forced 99 release rate.
Post by: ccexplore on September 29, 2009, 12:20:06 AM
I know nuke counterexamples doesn't count in your challenge, but here's a nuke counterexample solution for your level that saves 6 with 2 blockers used. Though I'm guessing the solution can be easily eliminated if you (for example) move the exit sufficiently left from the entrance.
Post by: ccexplore on September 29, 2009, 12:37:06 AM
There's still namida's challenge open which got omitted as minimac posted a challenge without solving the previous one. I suggest to use it when the next 'open floor' occurs.
I just looked it up again. I'm surprised no one tackled that one. I remembered peeking at it and thinking about it just before I went on vacation, and came up with something (not creating the level per se, but at least have a concrete idea of how to make the level) within minutes. But I didn't want to solve the challenge at that time because I didn't have time to come up with a new challenge or possibly even making the level for namida's challenge (because of the vacation etc.)
I also forgot what I came up with now
, though I'm confident that if I were to put the slightest bit of effort it wouldn't take long for me to recover what I came up with, if someone else doesn't beat me to it. [I think I got it, but since it's not clear right now which challenge we are doing next, and since this one shouldn't take long anyway, I'll sit out namida's challenge for now. If I have time later I'll make and post my level.]
Post by: geoo on September 29, 2009, 02:29:57 PM
In fact, I think that's an idea for follow-up challenge; but right now we're in over-supply of challenges, so I guess I'll leave it for later (and have the time to actually set up a level for it, though I think it's easier than my current challenge).
I guess as soon as someone calls open-floor, we're back to one challenge again.
Though actually, it doesn't seem to harm having two challenges running simultaneously...
Post by: chaos_defrost on September 29, 2009, 11:49:53 PM
It's missing a lot of the climber solutions and I'm trying to work them in, but was wondering if any of you had ideas.
Also it's ugly
Post by: Proxima on September 30, 2009, 12:26:38 AM
Post by: Pooty on September 30, 2009, 01:06:35 AM
Well, here's a contribution to the "as many 2 skill combos as possible" challenge. I actually don't know what solutions are possible.
It's missing a lot of the climber solutions and I'm trying to work them in, but was wondering if any of you had ideas.
Also it's ugly
I haven't noticed a problem with your level yet. I have found exactly eight solutions that I don't regard as skill wasting:
Floater & Miner
Floater & Digger
Blocker & Builder
Blocker & Basher
Blocker & Miner
Blocker & Digger
Builder & Digger
Miner & Digger
Everything except Climbers and Bombers have been used, which is six out of eight, and satisfies the criteria of the challenge.
There's only one thing that I need clarifying. Namida stated that using Blockers solely to time the Bomber counts as skill wasting. Does that mean that all cases of skill wasting are illegal, or just that one? The reason I ask is because the level can be solved using just one Bomber, so I discarded all solutions that use that skill.
Post by: geoo on September 30, 2009, 01:13:55 AM
Both levels actually allow for a one-skill solution: (as by now already pointed out by Pooty) in Insane Steve's level you can use a bomber exploding slightly after falling off the ledge to lower the fall by a sufficient height.
I think making a save 1/2 level is easier for this as you can design routes so that you only have to save the floater/climber.
In Proxima's level you can use a bomber or a miner at the very right of the starting platform to get to the exit using only one skill.
I got a level now that allows for all 28 skill combinations (barring backroutes), not sure whether it's still worth its own challenge though; namida's challenge seems to have already turned into an optimisation challenge which turned out to be pretty interesting.
Post by: Proxima on September 30, 2009, 02:08:36 AM
In Proxima's level you can use a bomber or a miner at the very right of the starting platform to get to the exit using only one skill.
Ah well, that's easily remedied -- I can move the two vertical posts further apart. I originally put them close to allow the climber/bomber solution but further development of the level resulted in there being a completely different way to solve it with those skills anyway.
Post by: chaos_defrost on September 30, 2009, 03:39:52 AM
Also, I think that dropping the RR enough so Lemming 3 can be trapped in a digger pit, then putting steel at the bottom of the big ledge might add a LOT more possible wasteless solutions, but I don't really want to figure out how to add climber/bomber solutions and if geoo has a 28 combo solution it's a bit moot
EDIT: getting as many possible of the 56 3-skill solutions might be a ridiculous challenge, maybe save that for much later?
Post by: geoo on October 02, 2009, 07:15:17 PM
In order not to have this thread sink into oblivion, I'll degrade my current challenge into a bonus challenge (or just post my solution if you wish), because - to be honest - the level it yielded is pretty complicated and ugly. I think this kind of option was discussed on page 3, so I hope no-one minds.
I suggest that Insane Steve or Proxima come up with the next challenge; if neither of you want, I can provide a one as well.
Post by: Proxima on October 02, 2009, 08:09:23 PM
- Exactly 3 lemmings; 100% required
- Exactly two trapdoors and one exit
- The lemmings must be separated, in the sense that if no skills are assigned the lemming from the one-lemming trapdoor will never reach a location reached by the other two
- Exactly 1 climber, 0 floaters, bombers, blockers; at least three of the last four skill types must be non-zero and they must total at least 5
- There must not be any solution in which the isolated lemming is ever given a skill
- If one floater were added to the level (with nothing else changed) there would be a solution in which the isolated lemming was given at least one non-floater skill
Hope my conditions are clear enough; ask me if you have any questions.
Post by: chaos_defrost on October 02, 2009, 08:48:00 PM
It requires 2 pixel-perfect edge builds, sorry about that
EDIT: found a backroute, won't be too hard to fix, let me edit and re-up.
EDIT2: backroute fixed, I think.
Post by: Proxima on October 02, 2009, 09:25:16 PM
Do you want to set the next challenge?
Post by: Clam on October 07, 2009, 06:15:35 AM
Wow, that was fast
I'm going to take the prolonged silence as a no
I hope no one minds if I jump in now and post a challenge, in the interest of not letting this thread die. Here's one that I just thought up:
- One entrance
- At least 50% required to pass
- No release rate changes allowed. (In theory, this challenge should be possible without this rule, but the resulting levels would be extremely messy and the challenge would likely be less fun.)
- In any solution to the level (subject to the above), the number of lemmings on the level (i.e. the number OUT) must reach at least 10, and then drop to zero, before any lemmings reach the exit.
Post by: Fernito on October 07, 2009, 06:24:25 AM
Post by: geoo on October 12, 2009, 12:40:04 AM
On a different note, did anyone have a go at my retreated challenge? Or shall I post my level?
Post by: Clam on October 12, 2009, 03:29:29 AM
Here's mine.
Post by: Fernito on October 12, 2009, 04:04:43 AM
Post by: Dullstar on October 12, 2009, 04:15:19 AM
Post by: Clam on October 12, 2009, 04:41:08 AM
Can anyone please explain how do both of these levels work
It would have been nice if you posted a solution with the level geoo.
I trust you won't mind me posting one here (since finding solutions isn't the point of this game).geoo's level:
Make the first two lemmings climb. The first one must dig from the dark brown pixel at the top of the crystal. Make the other climber a bomber when it falls from the ledge on the right.
My level:
Make the first lemming climb out. Turn it into a bomber when it steps on the bump in the terrain (the "reset button") on the way back. Perfect timing required, I'm afraid...
Post by: Dullstar on October 12, 2009, 04:46:19 AM
Post by: Yawg on October 12, 2009, 04:56:27 AM
Is the floor open?
Looks like SOMEBODY has a challenge to share with the world
Post by: Dullstar on October 12, 2009, 05:09:55 AM
Make a VGAspecx.dat file using Shadow tribe terrain for extra credit! At least, since a DOS version of Lemmings 2 was made, I assume it falls under the color limits. If not, it still counts for the extra credit if the quality has to be downscaled a little.
Don't make the non-glitch one too hard to pull off once the player finds it! My definition of "not too hard to pull off" is "doesn't require me to make pixel precise moves and doesn't make me try and get a lemming who is going the right direction in a crampt spacce. If I can't solve for one or both ways, Clam Spammer, if he is willing, will check. If he isn't, hopefully ccexplore is. If neither is, we'll have to test it with the rest of the community. That could mean less accurate results. Oh well.
If my challenge isn't clear, let me know. And the VGAspec is extra credit, NOT required!
Post by: Clam on October 12, 2009, 06:11:11 AM
As for the VGAspec thing, Paint Shop Pro tells me these use 15 colours, but if you cut out all the yellow and orange bits (which aren't essential) then you end up with 7 - which is few enough for a VGAspec.
Post by: geoo on October 12, 2009, 11:16:03 AM
Seems like the 'longer route' is allowed to take no skills at all (unless 'long' is measured by skills used instead of time taken or pixel distance).
EDIT: ClamSpammer already described the solution to my level, but for your viewing pleasure (don't fall asleep! Yeah, the title fits, I somehow had it designed differently at first, and somehow the amount of lemmings out got up to 17) here it is:
Post by: Dullstar on October 12, 2009, 09:41:57 PM
Post by: Fernito on October 12, 2009, 10:14:52 PM
Post by: Clam on December 10, 2010, 04:10:43 AM
Please use the new topic for further challenges/discussion
Adam