Loap 0.0.5.1 / LoapCore 0.0.6.0 / Commit e4b868d

Using two turners pointing into each other does correctly catch the crowd, as it did in L3D. However a turner pointing in toward a deflector block (see Attachment) causes a crash:

nhandled exception. System.ArgumentException: Invalid direction / rotations combination
   at LoapCore.Lemmings.LemmingBaseAction.CalculatePostDeflectorDirection(Int32 deflectorRotations) in C:\Documents\Dev\loap\LoapCore\Lemmings\LemmingBaseAction.cs:line 107
   at LoapCore.Lemmings.ActionWalker.CheckDirectionChange() in C:\Documents\Dev\loap\LoapCore\Lemmings\ActionWalker.cs:line 319
   at LoapCore.Lemmings.LemmingBaseAction.InternalExecute(ActionPhase phase) in C:\Documents\Dev\loap\LoapCore\Lemmings\LemmingBaseAction.cs:line 71
   at LoapCore.Lemmings.LemmingBaseAction.Execute(ActionPhase phase) in C:\Documents\Dev\loap\LoapCore\Lemmings\LemmingBaseAction.cs:line 58
   at LoapCore.Game.GameEngine.ExecuteLemmingPhase(ActionPhase phase, Boolean[] voidLemmings) in C:\Documents\Dev\loap\LoapCore\Game\GameEngine.cs:line 135
   at LoapCore.Game.GameEngine.UpdateLemmings() in C:\Documents\Dev\loap\LoapCore\Game\GameEngine.cs:line 122
   at LoapCore.Game.GameEngine.Update() in C:\Documents\Dev\loap\LoapCore\Game\GameEngine.cs:line 108
   at Loap.Views.Game.GameViewExecution.HandleUpdate(Boolean overridePause) in C:\Documents\Dev\loap\Loap\Views\Game\GameViewExecution.cs:line 67
   at Loap.Views.Game.GameView.DoUpdate(Single elapsedTime) in C:\Documents\Dev\loap\Loap\Views\Game\GameView.cs:line 37
   at Loap.Views.BaseView.Update(Single elapsedTime) in C:\Documents\Dev\loap\Loap\Views\BaseView.cs:line 57
   at Loap.LoapMain.Update(GameTime gameTime) in C:\Documents\Dev\loap\Loap\LoapMain.cs:line 82
   at Microsoft.Xna.Framework.Game.DoUpdate(GameTime gameTime)
   at Microsoft.Xna.Framework.Game.Tick()
   at Microsoft.Xna.Framework.SdlGamePlatform.RunLoop()
   at Microsoft.Xna.Framework.Game.Run(GameRunBehavior runBehavior)
   at Microsoft.Xna.Framework.Game.Run()
   at Loap.Program.Main() in C:\Documents\Dev\loap\Loap\Program.cs:line 9

Some video footage:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/oom4k2v3l1jcd8o/Loap%202022-01-21%2010-01-47.mp4?dl=2

- While the framerate is capped, the camera movement with the mouse becomes very choppy and unpredictable. I switch to using keyboard briefly in the middle of the footage to show that works fine, then switch back to mouse.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/05i6ayfvm56dwtu/Loap%202022-01-21%2010-09-02.mp4?dl=2

- Shows that some frame skips still occur during gameplay if you watch closely.

14. The frame limiter aims for 60 FPS by default, but if you use fast forward during a level, it causes the frame limiter to limit to 30 FPS for the rest of the level after that moment.

I've updated to 0.0.5.1 as of this post

Some graphics rendering stuff. Take a Dive seems like a good level to use when trying to squash some of the current sprite-rendering bugs.

Images 1

- Barrels rendering over the slope, and over the head of a lemming (Image 1-1 & 1-2).
- Barrels cutting into a slope (Image 1-2).
- Lemmings partially cutting through slopes and deflector blocks (Image 1-3).
- Also included one of Lemmings being gobbled up by slopes when traveling on them across-ways (Image 1-4).

Images 2

- The lighting creates these random darker spots on the lower layer of blocks in It's A Run Around. Looking up videos of the level played in L3D, I don't see these spots, so they might be something funny with how lighting is being calculated? (Image 2-1) (EDIT: Pooty demonstrated these exist in the actual game.)

Images 3

- The level preview for The M-A-Z-E is significantly off-center. (Image 3-1). It's also off center and too low for Attack of the Fifty Ft Lemmings (Image 3-2).
- Lemmings that touch mud in The M-A-Z-E die via electrocution instead of drowning. (Image 3-3)

Images 4

- Some of the camera starting positions feel incorrect. In particular, they feel too low. You shouldn't start with a face full of tree in A Short Cut Through The Forest for instance (Image 4-1) Another where you can see it is Down the Middle We Go. I included loap (Image 4-2) a video with the original (Image 4-3) for reference.

Just so it's here, #2 turns out to be related to garbage collection.

Skill Assignment

10. When assigning skills and many lemmings are overlapping the cursor, it seems to assign the skill to the lemming that is FURTHEST away from the camera, instead of closest. It should assign to the closest.


Blockers & Turners

11. Turners on steep slopes are ignored by lemmings walking up the slope. Works correctly on shallow slopes, and with blockers.

12. You can attempt to assign a lemming that is already a turner the turner skill again. It won't consume the skill, but it'd probably be best if you couldn't 'lock on' to them like that.

13. If you assign a blocker to stand on the edge of mud, they'll reach the mud and drown instead of becoming a blocker. The skill is consumed. Works correctly for land/water edges.

Since the source is up, I've been playing around with a bit ahead of the official demo. I intend to do more tomorrow, but I couldn't help doing a little tonight. Time to nitpick!

Performance / Controls

1. Camera rotation seems to be tied to the framerate in some way? When the framerate is extremely high (over 1000 FPS), mouse rotation becomes extremely low sensitivity, where large mouse moves barely cause a rotation, but when I cap the framerate to 120 using the nvidia control panel, the sensitivity feels much more normal. Doesn't seem intended.

2. The game hitches for about an eighth of a second every 2-3 seconds, but inconsistently. I thought maybe it was doing it when it reads and prints the FPS reading to the console, but it doesn't always line up with that. If the camera is moving or rotating during the moment a hitch happens, it 'keeps its momentum' during that moment, causing the camera to suddenly jump. The effect is greatly exaggerated (multiplied?) at high FPSes, causing such hitches and jumps to be extremely noticeable. Hitches can be observed just by waiting on the level selection screen or level preview too, but seem to be much more infrequent compared to active gameplay.

3. Although the game physics are capped at 30 FPS, the rendering isn't, so currently the game maxes out the CPU core or GPU (whichever ends up being the bottleneck on the given system). This is fine currently, particularly since the FPS is useful for assessing performance at this stage, but consider adding an actual Frame cap or Vsync in future for people who don't want the game using unnecessary resources.


Blockers / Turners

4. In L3D, assigning a blocker or turner would cause that lemming to become a blocker/turner at the edge of that block no matter what. Currently in Loap, if you assign the skill in the last quarter or so of the block, they'll keep walking into the next grid square before becoming a blocker/turner. Visually, it looks like you moved the turners away from the block edge, so I suspect this is actually an intended change, but I wanted to make sure? If this change is kept, it might be worth considering if any puzzles are impacted by this (e.g. assigning blocker/turners directly out of a fall from a ledge / builder bridge for instance).

5. Following on from #4, if you assign a Turner to a lemming that is about to fall off a ledge, the lemming will not become a turner (either on the ledge, or after they land) but the Turner skill will still be consumed. This is probably true for Blockers too, but I didn't confirm for sure.

6. Related to #5, if a lemming is between two blockers on the same square (e.g. by assigning a blocker either side of the starting hatch), then Loap lets you attempt to assign the trapped lemming as a blocker and consumes the skill, but they'll never actually become one.

7. In L3D, if two lemmings were bunched up, assigning one of them as a turner while they were in the first half of a grid square (in the direction of travel) would cause the turner to turn the other lemming. This trick is used in LP3D Wafer Walkway, for instance. Currently in Loap this doesn't work - the trailing lemming always ignores the turner and goes through, even if you assign the turner as early as possible, as described in #4.

8. In L3D, two turners on the same grid square pointing the same direction could be used to simulate a blocker, and two pointing into each other would catch and compress the crowd. Neither trick currently works on Loap. Lemmings will turn at the first turner they encounter, and ignore all subsequent turners on the same block, walking through. Turners inside of splitter blocks or immediately adjacent to deflector blocks are ignored in the same way.

9. In L3D I don't think you could 'overlap' a blocker and turner by assigning both to the same edge. Currently you can in Loap, as seen in Attachment 1. I might be misremembering, though.

Do you each have roles (defuser or expert) you would prefer, or would you want to try both roles out?

If you want to defuse or play both, I can gift the game to you. Add me as a friend on Steam or provide me with an email to gift to (can PM/DM). My Steam username is "DireKrow".

Also mantha, if your laptop mic is good quality, it could still work. Another possibility is using your phone if you have discord on it. You will need to be able to talk and play the game (if defusing) or do working out (if expert) at the same time, though.

Cloners are fine, imo. The reason preplaced are disallowed is because the idea of the rule is that the lemmings all come from one starting location (the entry) but have to be evenly split among the exits.

The intention with Rule 2 was that you actually apply the limit to the exits by setting the 'Lemming' count on the exits in the editor. At least in NL. In Lix, you can't do that, so instead you have to enforce it through the solution.

For Rule 3, the spirit of the rule is that you're using terrain to create (a) sculpture(s) of some kind. Like building a boat shape out of bricks for instance. So if you use a custom style, that's totally fine as long as you don't, say, make your sculpture out of one giant terrain piece that you prepared earlier, which is akin to vgaspec.

I don't have a mic at the moment, so it wouldn't be for at least a few days... but would anyone maybe be interested in trying Keep Talking and Nobody Explodes?

For those unfamiliar with it, it's a communication-focused co-op puzzle game about defusing bombs! One person is the 'defuser' while one (or more) people are 'experts'. Experts can see the manual which has the instructions on how to disarm the bomb, while the defuser can see and manipulate the bomb itself... but the experts can't see the bomb and the defuser can't see the instructions, so it's all about communicating info back and forth to disarm it successfully!

Anyone can be an expert, even if they don't own the game, but you need to own the game to be a defuser. I might be willing to gift it to people. Expert is better for people who like math and solving puzzles. Defuser is better for group leaders, and people who like interacting with stuff. Of course, if multiple people own the game, you can swap back and forth. Can be played with 2+ players, I think 3 (1 defuser + 2 experts) is the ideal number, but I have no problem playing in a group of 2 or 4+ too.

I won't necessarily know what days I'll be unavailable until the day before. However, on days where I am available, I am available for a very big chunk of time. 6AM-8PM AEST comfortably. That's 1PM-3AM pacific, 4PM-6AM eastern, 9PM-11AM british.

EDIT: I got a new headset much earlier than I thought. Today, in fact. So I'm good to go whenever.

Thanks for the congratulations! I enjoyed playing the other levels as well. Looking forward to next time.

Feel free to post for round 1 if you'd like too. Nothing saying you can't do that.

Re:Turrican R1

1. I was unfamiliar with this one. It's decent. I really should go through all of the Amiga main themes at some point since there's some real incredible ones. In fact, this one inspired me to do a bit of searching and I ended up finding a new menu theme I quite like, from A Prehistoric Tale: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bzFbrufMyw
2. Hey, a Basiscape soundtrack! They're a bit hit and miss for me as a group, but this song you linked is pretty good. I have several acquaintances who are obsessed with them though, so they'd be super happy to know you picked something from the group. I don't think I've played any SHMUP that they did the music for myself, so I can share one of my favourites pretty much freely. From DoDonPachi DaiFukkatsu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeyVsRCfGHg
3. Apparently the original Space Invaders released in 1978 and is considered by some to be the first game ever to feature continuous looping background music... even if it's just 4 notes repeated. The more you know.

Re:WillLem R1

1. Amiga is quite the popular choice so far for this category, as expected from a Lemmings forum. This one's pretty good. Continuing from my response to Turrican, I did some more searching (since Amiga isn't my strong point) and found another new menu theme I like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTzVI02TjQg
2. I love the Ace Attorney series! If you're okay with a lot of reading, I'd highly recommend it. Unfortunately, I've played all but one of them myself, and the one I haven't I'm not familiar with its soundtrack either... so I can't link you any of my favourites in this category. So instead, have a chiptune I recently discovered from a game I hadn't heard of until recently: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1RzhSGR5cg
3. The Tetris theme is an absolute classic. I like it as well. Luckily, by 1984, music in games was becoming more common. I'm quite partial to the normal in-game music from Tower of Druaga https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTCywoVdgGA (0:07-1:02)

Re:grams88 R1

1. Pretty good. I don't think I'm familiar with any Atari ST music before now, so this was a nice thing to see. As I'm unfamiliar with that system, I'll instead focus on the fact this is a peppy, energetic menu theme from an unusual source and recommend this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkYC9AhMLgw
2. JW-esque orchestral movie scores aren't really my taste, but it's good to see it represented. I think this is the first posted? I can't think of any orchestral songs in this style from games I haven't played that I really like, so instead I'll focus on the fact KOTOR is an early 2000s western RPG and recommend one of my favourites from Deus Ex: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYqv75ANPik
3. This one is gameplay footage rather than the song. Can't hear the song too well since it shares sound channels with the sound effects. As for 1988, some pretty iconic pieces were released back then. Super Mario Brothers 3, Ghouls 'n Ghosts, Mega Man II for instance. Keeping with the theme of intensity that Menace brings, I'm personally fond of this one from Ninja Gaiden: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2LF2t4YlBI

Re:607 R1

1. Very nice intro song. It's a shame a lot of people would probably skip over it considering where it plays. For me, when I think racing game with catchy, memorable title themes, my mind goes to Re-Volt's: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tCMImYsCnE - Believe it or not, this was something I thought of back when I was making my own pick, but in light of your choice for #3, I feel the need to post about it~
2. DKC2 is one of my favourite SNES OSTs and David Wise is one of my favourite composers. Love them. Naturally then, I like the song you picked~ For DKC2, my favourite is Mining Melancholy, but... I've actually played the game, so I wouldn't be able to use for this category. Instead, I'll link the snow theme I really like from DKC Tropical Freeze: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdBpGPyGv40 - Quite a different take, focusing more on the intensity of climbing a snowy mountain rather than the beauty of winter as in DKC2's.
3. It's one of my favourite racing games from my childhood! Last year actually I rediscovered it via RVGL and still play it off and on to this day. Love to chat about this game. In terms of its music, my favourite is actually WestVolt (the song that plays in Ghost Town 1 & 2), but I enjoy basically every song, this one included. As for 1999 itself, a certain other racing game was also released that year with one of game's most iconic intro songs (which I also happen to love): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQMlzcbfz0I

Re:LanaAndCo R1

1. Awesome song and one of my favourite selections so far in the thread. Love the bouncy rhythm. Both Jazz Jackrabbit games have such good music. Have another funky theme song, ToeJam & Earl's: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kv5KuryOe4
2. Ay, my favourite Actraiser song. Very good choice. I haven't played this game either actually. I definitely agree it sounds like a Castlevania song. It was composed by Yuzo Koshiro, who is great and made a lot of other music I also really like from games I haven't played (including a Castlevania, coincidentally). I particularly love some of the songs they've done for Etrian Odyssey. My absolute favourites from the series have some incredibly intense FM synths which aren't to everyone's taste, so instead I'll link this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KmcSXVyzzM
3. Piano is actually my favourite instrument. This is a very good, upbeat, fun piano piece. Thanks a lot for sharing this one. I'll share one of my own that I like from 2000, albeit one with a far simpler composition. From Final Fantasy IX: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxZlJGtFGcw

Re:JRT R1

1. This one's a bit plain for me, admittedly, but it's nice to see some modern 4X represented. It's funny you mentioned Baba Yetu in #3, because if you really wanted to use it... you could have used it here, since it's Civ IV's title theme: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJiHDmyhE1A
2. I can't believe they straight up named the game 'Awesome'. Pretty good song. Aside from Lemmings I haven't played any Amiga games so I could put any here, this game  included. I do like the one that was featured in Lemmings itself too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-3FySgabMA
3. Arcade music was hitting its stride in 1986, so even if you didn't want to pick a Castlevania, Zelda or Metroid song, you could always enjoy a nice Magical Sound Shower: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzsqx5uXmpA

Will go through all the R2 picks at the end of the round. I probably won't recommend songs in them anymore because it takes ages to do (this post literally took me 3 hours lol).

Second Round

1) Favorite music that plays during the credits shown at the end of a game
Ori and the Blind Forest - Light of Nibel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kN_LvY97Rco
The credits music to my all time favourite game soundtrack and one of my all time favourite games. I cried the first time I heard this. Also, even after hearing this a bunch due to speedrunning the game, I'm still not tired of it.

2) Music you like from a game that you have played and disliked
Risk of Rain - Surface Tension
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzJlzGaQFoc
Very difficult category for me because I am picky about which games I play. Consequently, I tend to enjoy everything I play because I only play something if I'm quite sure I'll like it. So I played Risk of Rain 2 first and quite enjoy it, however when I went back to Risk of Rain 1 after playing 2... oof. Did not like it at all. I felt it was so punishing and janky. That said, RoR1's OST is far superior to RoR2's OST imo, so... that makes it a good fit for this category. Love this song.

3) Favorite final boss battle music
Undertale - Megalovania
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FCvzsVlXpQ
It's a shame this soundtrack, and especially this song, are so overplayed that nobody can take them seriously anymore. Because I think it's freaking awesome. I still unironically love this song and could think of hardly any other final boss themes I like as much as this one.

Re:Armani

1) Does this play on the menu? I thought this was the menu song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s26y2D2MMIA - Either way, Tetris 99 has some super good music. People might be really into Tetris Effect now, but for me, Tetris 99 is probably the best Tetris has ever sounded. Just love the energy.
2) Clever. A game nobody has played yet. I haven't listened to anything from this game yet since I haven't been paying much attention to its development/coverage, but I dig this song. Love those intense, overdriven synths. Nex Machina is another game I haven't played that has a cyberpunky synthwave soundtrack. I'm quite partial to this song from it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRlufMGfh0k
3) Too atmospheric for my personal tastes in music, but the original Fallout is definitely a game I'm interested in. I haven't played it yet, but it's something I want to try! 1997 had a lot of games with dark, moody, atmospheric vibes. One of the most notable is probably Diablo, from which this piece stands out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnMR6SOBa9k

Re:Nessy

1) Very topical pick. I'm surprised at how elaborate this song is considering where it plays... seems incredibly easy to miss it. Don't get why they would do that. Super Paper Mario has a long, fun, upbeat, chaotic menu theme as well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsxnH-ijjSA
2) Force Your Way's pretty good. FF7's boss theme, since you mention it, is also great and possibly my favourite of the FF1-9 boss themes. I already replied to Mobius with a boss theme from an FF I haven't played... so I'm pondering a different RPG franchise I haven't played, Shin Megami Tensei: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGORm3P0F1w
3) Mega Man 7 OST is underrated. Slash Man is one of my favourites from it too. 1995 has a lot of good music actually, including two of my favourite SNES soundtracks: Chrono Trigger and Donkey Kong Country 2. Since you seem to like classic Square-Enix boss themes, I'll highlight Chrono Trigger's: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZI7f1gcyns