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Messages - uberwolfie

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NeoLemmix Levels / Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« on: November 30, 2020, 12:21:41 AM »
Yes, well done! You're basically finished with the meat of the pack now, I'm sure you'll make quick work of the rest. Maybe one or two might give you pause...
I've been really enjoying watching you break some of the levels, you seem to be really good at that :crylaugh:

Quote from: Swerdis on November 29, 2020, 05:04:38 PM
I'm also quite sure that it is backroute-safe which cannot bei said for most of the levels here.

Try this :P

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NeoLemmix Levels / Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« on: November 22, 2020, 03:12:11 PM »
Quote from: Pieuw on November 22, 2020, 10:37:44 AM
To address a particular point I've read here and there: yes at the time Dodo and I were messaging a lot and exchanging levels. We kind of inspired each other, which explains the similarities some people noticed between our two packs. We sometimes had similar ideas at the same time, like the main trick used in Sharin' the fuel and Lemmings on the Road to Ruin. Then we would send them to each others and be like "Whaaaat?" :crylaugh: Ah, the nostalgia.
If I remember correctly, which I may not, DoveLems was released before PimoLems right?

Comparing the packs (any packs) feels a bit awkward I guess, each author having their own style and preferences. In the end it's only about the player's taste and the feeling may vary greatly from player to player. Diversity is what makes this world amazing after all :thumbsup:

Hi Pieuw! :laugh:
This is really interesting to know, and does answer those questions. Tbh I regret a bit pushing the comparison angle so much - my reaction to DoveLems says I think more about my mental state playing it than any objective feature of the levels...and I probably had as many criticisms of PimoLems ultimately :-[

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NeoLemmix Levels / Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« on: November 17, 2020, 09:14:39 AM »
Good points all, and naturally the Lemmini engine means that the packs were a very different experience before conversion - I imagine the backroutes were also somewhat harder to execute sometimes, as were most things; it all needed a different approach from the player too.

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NeoLemmix Levels / Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« on: November 17, 2020, 02:58:23 AM »
Quote from: kaywhyn on November 16, 2020, 03:34:27 PM
Very nice thoughts outlined in your PDF file as usual. Regarding your final thoughts, I still stand by my notion that Pimolems isn't necessarily better quality than Dovelems, because again to me not only is it an unfair claim to make, it doesn't make sense to compare packs from different authors that way. It does make sense to me to compare packs from the same author, eg, Reunion and United. I am in agreement that the puzzles in Pimolems tend to be better and hence there's greater satisfaction in figuring them out and beating them as compared to beating the levels in Dovelems. Another thing that we seem to differ on is how you seem to think the quality of a pack suffers from being backroute ridden, like it is with Dovelems, while Pimolems doesn't have as much. This is where I don't necessarily agree. Just because a level is backroutable doesn't automatically make it a bad level. A backroutable level can still be really good. It just simply means that the level hasn't 100% enforced the intended solution yet. As I have also pointed out, Dovelems is still a really good pack despite how backroutes abound. Both Dovelems and Pimolems are excellent packs in their own ways, which you seem to be in agreement. In the same way, despite all the backroutes I found in United when I played through the pack, in my eyes United is still a very well-done, very high quality pack in my eyes, so therefore the quality has never suffered or too much in my eyes to make me think otherwise. Then again, it's very difficult to find a Lemmings level that I don't really like. In all the packs I have played, there have generally only been around 2-3 levels in each rank I wasn't a fan of. Not to mention that I generally only have very good things to say about the levels whenever I give the pack author feedback. It takes a lot before I start to rage at a level. In general, I seem to have a much higher level of patience compared to most when it comes to solving levels.

Absolutely, no real argument on anything here. I should be clearer though, it's not the quality that suffers from backroutes, it's the experience, like how I feel the one I had from DoveLems was affected by the ease of solving some key puzzles. You're absolutely right that this is a matter of testing and refining rather than initial design - the key problem is thus the expectations of the player going in rather than the nature of the levels themselves. DoveLems certainly is still going through this testing phase it seems, thanks mostly to Icho. So the fact that I was disappointed means that my expectations should have been different going in, not that I genuinely think one pack is superior to the other on every single metric (clearly this is not true, and I think I explore in detail the strengths and weaknesses of each).

I think it's interesting to speculate about level design in terms of whether this process of testing and refinement is initially smooth, that is the initial concept is solid enough that it stays true even with some small tightening, or whether there was a flaw in the initial concept to some degree and the whole thing needs rethinking to bring it to the same place. I do make the very weak claim that DoveLems may be more prone to the latter as it exists now, and with the author not really present, those levels will probably stay that way unless Icho decides to be more hands on (which he probably won't, out of respect). This claim is impossible to prove, but I'm still very interested in the precise mechanics of the creative process generally, and Lemmings levels of the quality of both these packs have given me a lot of food for thought regarding this. It's fascinating to me how designing Lemmings puzzles is a huge process of testing against other minds, not just a solitary endeavour.

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NeoLemmix Levels / Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« on: November 16, 2020, 01:55:41 PM »
Hello folks :)

Here is my document, outlining my complete thoughts and experiences playing PimoLems. It is a companion to my previous similar effort on the subject of DoveLems, and the goal is to document what was an amazing experience of expanding my Lemmings horizons, as well as laying out the similarities and differences between the two packs that I noticed. I doubt I will do such a complete analysis of a level pack again.

I see that a number of you downloaded and potentially read at least some of my DoveLems document. I hope it is of interest, the observations are quite personal, and I am not as seasoned a designer or player as many of you forum regulars. I did want to bring up a few specific levels where I have questions for Icho about changes he's made (at least I assume it must have been him). These are all brought up in the document, but obviously I can't expect everyone to slog through that on the off chance they'll run across these points and then be compelled to respond...

Windy 11: "From Pillar to Post": I really question the added steel on the leftmost platforms, which prevent you from digging through from a higher level, as Pieuw's original solution on his YouTube uses this possibility, and I strongly think levels are better with more solutions, so long as they are roughly equivalent in spirit and difficulty, which I think these two (Pieuw's and mine/Icho's) are. Is there a backroute that this seals up that would otherwise completely break the level?

One 10: "Bombing All the Way Home": In a similar vein, I much prefer the idea of this level as one with several different approaches, like the one from the creator himself, which is ingenious, and now seemingly not possible. This level really, for me, seems to have lost some sense of richness with the removal of that one builder, essentially forcing the current solution. Would like to know if others agree with me. Sometimes removing all backroutes makes a level disappointingly one-dimensional in this way.

All other levels I really appreciate the changes and see that this makes them much stronger :lemcat:

Quote from: kaywhyn on November 15, 2020, 06:26:56 PM
Great to hear that you're thinking of taking on United. While absolutely not required, seeing how you started Reunion some time ago, I still suggest finishing that pack before taking on United. I'm not just saying this because United is a sequel pack to Reunion, but rather I feel one's transition into United should go as smoothly as possible, and this can certainly help. Again, it's not necessary in any way to finish Reunion before playing United. Just a thought. Or, you could even do both concurrently. If you ever get horribly stuck on United, you could then play some Reunion or some other packs in the meantime. It is normal to get stuck, so don't worry if it happens. Happens to me all the time, even in packs that aren't anywhere near as difficult as United or Nepsterlems, for example. Either way, prepare for an extremely long and very difficult journey, considering it's a 200+ level pack (currently 238 levels) and the huge amount of tough nuts in the pack. Despite the very high difficulty, I still recommend United, as it's just a very well-done pack in so many ways. It's probably my most favorite level pack that I've finished solving currently, although I still like all the other packs I've finished playing very much as well.

Yeah I just got a little bored of Reunion, not because it's intrinsically boring, just I'm getting a little tired playing all these packs from the Lemmini era when there are bigger and newer things to explore! But what you suggest is a good idea, I'm sure I will use many other packs as breaks from United, I'm almost finished with Pacifism, although obviously this still leaves me only at the foothills of the mountain. Having a great time so far, there's a sort of wonderful exhilaration to some of the designs, it's a whole beautiful mysterious world to explore. I also tried some early levels from a bunch of other packs, like SEBLems, Doomsday Lemmings, and MazuLems. Some fun things! I should try NepsterLems too, given your comments elsewhere on its quality and difficulty. Also I think I will be enjoying your let's plays, I started watching Doomsday Lemmings, and I'll see if I can play it along with you (not in real time though of couse).

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NeoLemmix Levels / Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« on: November 15, 2020, 03:59:42 PM »
Hello everyone! :thumbsup:

I finished PimoLems a week or two ago, have just been writing up my complete thoughts since then, which again may be of no interest to anyone but me. Seeing that Swerdis is well on his way to finishing it up himself, and wishing to give Icho a whole set of replays to look at before releasing the next version, I was spurred on to finish that document so I could submit my replays here and the writings at the same time. I'll have to give the document a little proofread before sharing it with you, but in the meantime here are my replays.

I think you may find several of them interesting for backroute-related purposes, particularly you may want to examine:

Calm: 18
Windy: 2 4 14*  15  18
Stormy: 3* 4 7 8*(?) 14*(!) 18
Hurricane: 11 15* 16 17* 18
Pickaxe: 7* 15 16*(?) 17*(note the two replays - I think I found the intended solution in the later one, but it's currently not necessary to utilize the left hand area at all) 18*
One: 5* 7 9 11 15* 16* 18 20(is this what you intend with the walkers?)
Extra: 19 20*

The ones marked with * are ones I'm almost certain break the level in some way. There may be one or two others that I've missed, but probably nothing major.

Ok, now onto more modern packs I think, starting with United...:devil::8()::XD:

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NeoLemmix Levels / Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« on: October 28, 2020, 05:34:27 AM »
Nice thoughts, always very good to hear!
I'm not sure I entirely agree with you in principle about comparing apples & oranges, certainly there are "objective" criteria which you can use to compare pretty much anything, especially Lemmings levels which all share a fundamental goal after all. It's just that everyone will value different criteria over others, thus subjective impressions will be formed. I do try to avoid unqualified sweeping statements like Eric's (not that I think sweeping statements are wrong, sometimes it's quicker to use them), but I can see personally where he's coming from.
Otherwise, completely agree with you, the packs definitely have different values themselves.
It's interesting about skills, in some way the constraint of the original skills seems to be a key ingredient in the puzzle aspect, adding extra ones has the danger of giving the lemmings too much "freedom" - this is something I was very aware of while playing Tribes, how it had such a different feel to its predecessor, maybe due in part to "overpowered" skills, but also a lack of focus (or even proper implementation) of the original ones despite their tried and tested usefulness. NL I would say seems to have done a very good job adding new skills that are actually useful but avoid this trap, and work well with the classic skills.
Anyway, that's potentially a discussion for another thread I guess :)
I got through the first rank of Reunion, and half of the second, some great levels although I must say I'm more excited to start on United which just seems like such a different scale. These will come more to the fore again I'm sure after PimoLems.
That's awesome about your prize - I hope things like that eventually end up in some kind of Lemmings museum though ;) ;P :crylaugh:

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NeoLemmix Levels / Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« on: October 28, 2020, 03:31:38 AM »
Hi guys! :laugh:

I felt like weighing in here, as I've been continuing to work on PimoLems, even as I needed to focus a bit more on work. I also took a break to finish Lemmings 2 so that RTW's let's play wouldn't get too ahead of me. I'm decently close to finishing PimoLems, just have slightly less than half of the One and Pickaxe ranks to get through, as well as the last half dozen or so levels of Hurricane, none of which will prove pushovers I'm certain :excited:

I will probably produce a complete review document of PimoLems, like I previously did with DoveLems, as I feel, like kaywhyn, that both these packs are important historically and aesthetically (not to mention in puzzle design of course), and I want to document my complete reaction. Also Icho you might be interested in my replays at that point, but it does seem like in PimoLems there's a lot less to fix.

I definitely share Eric's subjective experience that PimoLems is a better quality, stronger pack than DoveLems, although they certainly both have their strengths and weaknesses. DoveLems is definitely more approachable (I'm glad I played it first), but suffers very badly in the Maso rank from bad difficulty curve (I can't at all see why "Z for Zemmings" wasn't one of the very last major challenges in the pack). And the last two ranks in particular are extremely backroute prone, as we've seen especially recently with my and Swerdis's discoveries, and as I mentioned before, this left a bad taste in my mouth overall, even as I admired greatly many of the levels. I also have a certain distaste for what I think of as the "gimmick" levels, but that's more a matter of personal preference.

On the other hand, DoveLems I would say has more of an aesthetic, artistic atmosphere about it, Pieuw certainly has his moments in PimoLems, but Dodochacalo takes this to a new place. I'm also unsure about the relative predominance of levels in PimoLems requiring glitches. I like glitches, but I feel somehow that they're not a part of "regular" puzzle solving. In any case those levels, which of course I missed playing the NeoLemmix version, seem to have been tastefully handled from what I've seen.

Overall PimoLems has provided me a lot more satisfaction in terms of gameplay, and I really do get the sense that Pieuw is a more careful crafter of pure challenges. If the aesthetic is not an overt focus apart from a few beautiful cosmetic touches, the level architecture often seems like not a pixel is out of place as regards to the functioning of the puzzle, like it's been meticulously refined. And this impression is further backed up when I see him very often having a dialogue in YouTube comments and here on the board with people who play his levels, whereas Dodochacalo seems like a somewhat aloof figure these days (was he ever active much here or elsewhere?).

kaywhyn, you've also touched on something I have been wondering about, which is the exact relationship between the two packs; obviously both creators are French (I assume?) and many levels of DoveLems seem to be inspired by levels of PimoLems, or possibly vice versa. In some ways it seems almost like they have, or had (speaking of the landscape of this community in the Lemmini era) a common goal in terms of extending the field of possibilities of puzzle design, with DoveLems ending up feeling like a more "fun" introduction, and PimoLems being much more punishing, a compendium of unforgiving challenges.

Anyway, just my two cents :) this may have been discussed in depth before, but would be curious to hear from those who remember, or just have different feelings.

Btw, I'm also interested if there's ever been a proper ranking of difficulty of all the NeoLemmix packs out there, or at least the most famous ones. I haven't been able to find a handy list, just certain sporadic opinions. I know this is very subjective, but it's interesting to think about what makes a level hard in terms of specific attributes, for instance is it true as Eric implies that it's more difficult to make hard levels when only using the original L1 skills? ??? maybe I should start a topic on this on another board to get a broader survey of opinions, or maybe someone else already has...

(PS: kaywhyn congrats on United, that's a massive achievement! :tal-gold:)

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In Development / Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« on: September 14, 2020, 08:18:42 AM »
Thanks both of you, it's nice to know these things now :thumbsup:

AT 14: Swag! 8-)

AT 19:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

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In Development / Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« on: September 14, 2020, 05:36:05 AM »
Here's my feedback on the latest patch! Have to say, it really was a lot of fun to play through, and learn all these new tricks, which I'm sure I'll be using on your other packs at some point! And it was exactly what I was looking for in terms of becoming familiar with all the NeoLemmix features.

I've glanced at the feedback others have given, particularly kaywhyn on the latest update, but haven't studied this thread extensively from the beginning so please forgive me if I've brought up anything someone else already mentioned or something that was already discussed and decided upon at an earlier point. Also, You've got lots of feedback on the pre-level texts, I've limited myself mostly to pointing out only very obvious errors.
I've zipped up all my replays, but note that only the ones with the later date are relevant to the current version (don't know if there's an easy way to separate them…)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

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In Development / Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« on: September 12, 2020, 10:36:03 PM »
:D
In which case I'll try not to keep you waiting much longer!

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In Development / Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« on: September 12, 2020, 12:24:16 PM »
Hi Icho :)
Did you mean next weekend as in September 19th? I've played the latest update up to the Advanced Training rank (and enjoying it!) would be happy to try and make it to the end during this week and give you what few thoughts I do have.
But if you wanted to get started on the update sooner, obviously you have plenty of more qualified feedback already.

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NeoLemmix Levels / Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« on: September 07, 2020, 04:03:40 PM »
Great stuff! I look forward to making sure my solutions are up to date!

Although my document was a nice catharsis for me, mainly I wanted to see if anyone had found these backroutes before. Also the tone at times is maybe a little strong...but I'm sure for fans of Dodochacalo reviews and opinions on his levels might still be interesting to read.

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NeoLemmix Levels / Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« on: September 06, 2020, 11:37:00 AM »
Thanks Icho! I played through the first 3 ranks of the intro pack, I like it! Pretty useful given that I'd be completely in the dark about a lot of neolemmix features otherwise.  I also found the manual, which was very helpful, but it's odd that it doesn't come with the program itself? And doesn't seem to be anywhere obvious on the website? In any case, I'll definitely try and complete the pack, and let you know if there's anything I notice :thumbsup:

The early levels may be trivial (and they certainly don't stay that way!) but I think I underestimated how much the classic mechanics of Lemmings 1 got seared into my brain as a young child - it was surprising how difficult it was to visualize the effect of the unfamiliar skills, and notice their use in solving specific problems.

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NeoLemmix Levels / Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« on: September 06, 2020, 12:54:44 AM »
Cheers for that, great information!
I might look into SuperLemmini, it seems like it has it's own thing going, but tbh NeoLemmix just seems so miraculous to me (compared to the original games) that it's hard to look past it right now.

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