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Lemmini / Re: [DISC] Porting Lemmings 2: The Tribes Levels to SuperLemmix
« Last post by geoo on Today at 06:58:03 PM »
The 16x8 tiles in the image dump are in the correct order. So a 1 in the level file would mean the first 16x8 tile, a 2 is the second 16x8 tile, etc, so it should be straightforward. You just need to create the NL tilesets based on those 16x8 tiles (which I assume can also be automated). Then you're sorted for the terrain at least.

Regarding your other question, of course you could also create images of the levels from the level files and the 16x8 tiles, it's a very similar process to the above.
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@geoo

What would writing such a script entail? Would it be a lot of manual matching 16x8 squares to images or could it be automated somehow?
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Other Projects / Re: Golems — a DOS Lemmings game engine
« Last post by Simon on Today at 05:27:51 AM »
FF buttons be hold-down instead of toggle, how I thought they always should've worked

Interesting observation. In Lix, I hold the 10-second framestepping, too, and it becomes fast-forward for me. Hard to say if it's worthwhile to turn toggle-on fast-forward into hold-to-fast-forward. I imagine that toggle-on is better for recording solution videos, but that's niche. Even in livestreaming, I prefer hold-to-framestep instead of the toggled fast-forward.

I haven't played Golems enough yet to decide if I want a super-fast hold-to-fast-forward in Golems.

snapshot basically only needs to store the accumulated changes to the terrain and effect maps along with the (uncompressed) creature states, gadget states, and various other small bits of game state.

There is wisdom here: Separation of all level state into an immutable and a mutable section. It's enough to store the immutable section once, at the beginning. We store the mutable section in regular intervals, possibly compressed.

We can push this further in all of our engines.

E.g, hatches and water don't need to be part of the mutable state at all. Their animation is only dependent on the number of physics updates since the beginning. We can keep them in the immutable section, and only prepare them just-in-time during the drawing step. It's common to have 10 to 50 water tiles in a level; Lix can omit many allocating deep copies here.

Traps must remain in the mutable section because they eat lemmings at unpredictable times, and both physics and graphics depend on such recent eating. Theoretically, traps can split into an immutable location and the mutable number of the physics update of recent eating, at cost of even more complication.

Thanks!

-- Simon
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In Development / Re: Recreating levels from Lemmings 2: The Tribes for NeoLemmix
« Last post by kaywhyn on May 16, 2024, 07:42:41 PM »
I can’t remember how many levels there are in each tribe, but I’m sure it’s no more than 20.

L2 has 120 levels in total, with the 12 tribes having 10 levels each.
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Lemmini / Re: [DISC] Porting Lemmings 2: The Tribes Levels to SuperLemmix
« Last post by WillLem on May 16, 2024, 04:43:05 PM »
@geoo

Thanks for the info, I’ll take a look at the assets later.

Conversion via script is a good idea. It would only have to be done once, assuming it works and all goes according to plan, so doesn’t need to be too pretty. Thereafter, the levels would exist in NL format and can be edited as necessary.

I wonder whether the levels could be saved as bitmaps somehow. These could then be used as backgrounds in the Editor, so at least if something went wrong in the script conversion it would be somewhat easier to make corrections as necessary.
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Lemmini / Re: [DISC] Porting Lemmings 2: The Tribes Levels to SuperLemmix
« Last post by geoo on May 16, 2024, 04:32:14 PM »
The L2 level/style format has been long known (see here - note that you'll have to decompress the levels/styles first using lem2zip, which you can also find there). The challenge will be that the levels are defined as a grid of 16x8 tiles, while (from what I understand) the existing NL L2 tilesets use pieces that are usually composed of multiple of such tiles. The L2 style definitions do define such pieces in terms of the smaller 16x8 tiles, however, I don't know if the NL L2 tilesets were created in a systematic way reflecting these definitions, or just ad-hoc.

All the L2 graphics (both 16x8 tiles and the composed pieces) have been ripped long time ago: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=6588.msg102252#new

A slightly ugly way would be to write a script to create 12 new tilesets where all the tiles are of size 16x8 (you could use the ripped graphics as input), and then write another script that converts L2 levels into NL levels using these 12 tilesets, automatically creating the terrain and object placements (assuming the existing NL tilesets are consistent with the L2 ordering of objects, otherwise you either have to manually create a mapping between the two, or extend the first script to also generate the NL objects -- I don't know how NL would deal with fling objects and the chain and cannon though). The skillset you'll have to tweak manually either way as I guess you don't support the full palette of L2 skills.
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SuperLemmix / [BUG] Inconsistent Fencer-steel interactions
« Last post by WillLem on May 16, 2024, 12:55:44 PM »
From this closed NL bug.

@Crane - can you remember exactly how you managed to set this up in your screenshots? I'm having difficulty replicating exactly what you have there.

However, I have noticed that this happens, and I wonder if it's one and the same bug:


Left: Fencer seems to be able to continue past the steel | Right: Fencer has found steel and stopped working, but walks forwards rather than turning, and the "chink" sound isn't cued

I'll try to find a fix for this.
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OK, this is still happening in v2.7.3 (screenshot attached).  I have been able to replicate this numerous times now.  It seems to occur when I browse through the different level pack/groups, expanding and then contracting different levels in the tree structure on the left.

OK, I've added this to the list of known bugs and will try to find a fix at some point.

It will work fine to start with, then will temporarily freeze/lock up, and the level select window will get the "...(Not Responding)" message in the title bar.

I've noticed this as well, it's been happening for quite a while. I've also added this to the list of known bugs; the level select menu in general could do with some debugging and bottleneck fixing. I'll take a look at it and see what can be done.
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In Development / Re: Recreating levels from Lemmings 2: The Tribes for NeoLemmix
« Last post by WillLem on May 16, 2024, 11:00:54 AM »
Giving this a bump due to interest in recreation of L2 levels being expressed here.

Such a project would be particularly good for SLX, due to the presence of more L2-like skills, and I may consider adding the missing objects (chains, cannons, trampolines, etc) at some point in the future if this project ever gains momentum, but of course it would be great to see this in NL as well (i.e. so, even if the existing skillset and objects are never expanded upon).

Proposal: what if we assign a number of level designers a tribe each, and task them with manually recreating the levels from just that tribe? I can’t remember how many levels there are in each tribe, but I’m sure it’s no more than 20. There are enough talented level designers on the Forums, we might even be able to give each tribe to 2 designers so that the workload can be divided further.

I’m happy to put myself forward for Beach.

Or, does the DOS version have .lvl files similar to L1/OhNo? Could the levels be assembled from these somehow?
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Lemmini / Re: [DISC] Porting Lemmings 2: The Tribes Levels to SuperLemmix
« Last post by WillLem on May 16, 2024, 11:00:01 AM »
would having a level set in SuperLemmix, divided into groups named for each of the L2 tribes, that visually resembled the L2 levels, had the same music/sfx, etc but just using the closest equivalent skills that are already available in SLX - thus avoiding extensive new skill coding/interaction coding/testing - be a feasible option?

Yes, absolutely.

This has previously been suggested by Strato as a project for NeoLemmix, but that was back in 2020 and not much has happened towards it since then, as far as I'm aware.

Given the scope of SuperLemmix to introduce more L2-like skills, features and mechanics, such a project may be better suited to SuperLemmix anyway.

The bulk of the work then would be recreating the levels themselves and SLX-tweaking them as required.

This is indeed the rub. It would require a lot of manual conversion work, since there doesn't yet exist a way to rip the level maps directly from any version of L2 (that we know of).

Ideally, we'd have a team of as many people as there are tribes, and each person would recreate all levels from just that tribe. Even then, it's a lot of manual effort, quality control, testing, etc. It would be an enormous project, and so far there simply hasn't been enough sustained interest to get it off the ground.

With that said, I'll keep nudging the idea forward now and again, and might begin work on the Beach levels at some point if I have enough time. That should help to get things moving if it ever happens, and it isn't a promise by any means.

I don't know if a similar plan would work for L3 as I have hardly ever played that, and not for many years.

I imagine it would involve essentially the same process: manually recreate the levels, assign suitable skillsets to make them playable.



Just going to throw this out there one last time: does anyone know of a way to rip the maps directly from one of the many L2 source disks?

DOS, in particular, seems promising, and we can rip .lvl files from L1's Amiga .adf so I wonder if the same thing can be done for L2 and L3?
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