Level Design Contest #33 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)

[kaywhyn]

I've now played through these levels as well and have attached my replays I only needed to play Armani's and Crane's levels for each ruleset, as I pre-tested all of Icho's levels as usual, and I of course know what's intended for my levels These levels for the most part weren't as difficult as I thought they be, so to be honest it surprises me some people needed help and hints, Armani's levels especially Hehe, of course only I would say that, coming from someone who has a lot of custom level solving experience IMO Armani's levels this time are much easier than they usually are, and I have stated plenty of times that I tend to struggle with his levels more than Icho's Armani's R3 is probably the hardest here, though it's psychological intimidation more than anything. Interestingly enough, the level that took me the longest to solve was Crane's R1, though here I stress that I saw the solution after a bit but it took me a while to figure out how to get the right timing and for it to work out in the end

In any case, all my solutions to Armani's and Crane's levels look intended to me?

Feedback on R1 Levels 

Armani's Underroot R1V1

Wow, nice level! The first thing I figured out here was which exit is the only possible one, and I quickly knew that it has to be the middle one. All right, good start. I send out an athlete to the right, bash through to the left from the top right, build across the gap, mine through the middle floating platform, and I saw that he later gets stuck in an endless loop once he goes past the left exit. I also saw that perhaps it's intended to bomb the emerald on the right to free the crowd to get them to the middle exit. Man, so close, I thought! If only he could climb up to the starting platform to do so. Wait, what if I dug at the start? First I tried as far left as possible for it. Would had worked if it weren't for that dang overhang blocking the climber. Darn! Tried it by placing the digger a bit further back and saw that it stops at the right spot for him to be able to climb back up later. Aha! Then it was just a matter of placing the blocker right at the edge of the digger tunnel so that he can slip under the blocker field. Genius!  

Crane's Lemming Ledger R1V9

Ok, this one took a bit longer than expected but only because the hard part for me here was figuring out how to get the timing to be right so that only one Lemming needs the floater to survive the fall on the right side. There's also plenty of other things that look like they can work but don't because you would end up losing the climber which he is needed to bomb the rest of the way for the crowd to proceed towards the exit later on. That pixel too high for Lemmings to get up the long miner tunnel even after bombing at the end is pretty evil I'm guessing that part needed some backroute fixing? Ultimately, the concept is nice, but all that trial and error to get the timing right to get the solution to work out made the level not as enjoyable for me as it should had been. Sorry, I'm generally find levels whose solutions aren't super hard to figure out but takes so much fiddling to get everything to work not enjoyable Personal preferences is all

Feedback on R2 Levels

Armani's Rusty Ruin Zone R2V3

Wow, this is a great level as well! The builders here are the hardest to figure out IMO. I also at first thought the portal was just decoration for some odd reason That perfect timing for the Lemmings to reach the middle at about the right time is genius, with making bridges meet to stop the splatting from the splat field. Same thing with digging and then cancel him with a builder so he doesn't fall through to the bottom like the one who gets the button at the top will. Finally, parking the Lemming who builds to the right after digging so he can be lasered free by the Lemming on the bottom right and then shimmy to reach the top exit is also clever. Nice work, and in one of Dexter's tilesets!  

Crane's Redneck Redemption R2V4

Another easy one to figure out, but ack, that talisman which, similar to your R1, took so much fiddling around before I got it to work. After a while, I figured out what such a solution would look like but thought if it's what I think it is, it's going to be a pain to execute. I suppose because this is an optional talisman requirement that doesn't follow the 1 Lemming to each exit rule it's fine, but next time I would have such follow the rule. You could of course always add it after the contest is over

Feedback on R3 Levels

Armani's Benzene R3V1

Not as difficult as it looks despite the overwhelming large level size with pickups scattered all around, with of course some obvious ones that you won't be able to collect. I nearly had the solution but as it was really late at night and I couldn't really think from being tired after puzzling my way through with the first two rulesets, I decided to leave it for after getting a good night's rest. Turns out I fell for the trap of building over the exit, which would cause one to be a builder short. Also one part near the exit requires two builders to clear instead of the usual one like most other platforms. Nice level. And look at that, I think it's coincidence that both your R3 and Icho's R3 require building to the L3 Biolab pillar to seal off the basher tunnel

Crane's Reverse Polarity R3V8

Another one that I needed to leave for the night after trying for a bit and having no success on Armani's R3 after also exhausting my brainpower from the first two rulesets. At one point I also came really close to the solution but the Lemming who used the bottom left arrived too late to catch one of the Lemmings by building and hence I kept being a Lemming short of the requirement. Turns out it simply needed a small RR tweak at the start, enough so that the last Lemming out of the trapdoor could dig the blocker free but not so early so that everyone can slip out of the tunnel. My solution still cuts it very close to losing that one Lemming, so maybe there are easier ways to execute the solution At the same time, seems to be that build a bit back but far enough forward so that one builder brick is enough to catch the Lemming on time instead of start building at the very edge of the platform. I'm also curious how Icho backrouted this level of yours. 

Will get videos up covering these contest entries in the coming days    

[Crane]

I admit I got disheartened, which was why I hadn't updated my levels in a while.  But they have been updated now.

P.S. IchoTolot's, JawaJuice's and kaywhyn's solutions to R1 and R3 are all backroutes, and the R2 solution is intended.  The talisman does break the spirit of the rule a bit, I admit, but that trick is very difficult to patch, but is also very fiddly, hence why it's a talisman.

[kaywhyn]

Got resolves for Crane's R1 and R3. Both seem to be backroutes unfortunately R1 for sure since I require all skills be used and I spared one, while R3 does seem less backroutey despite sparing a skill, but the intention seems to be all skills need to be used

The talisman does break the spirit of the rule a bit, I admit, but that trick is very difficult to patch, but is also very fiddly, hence why it's a talisman.

Well, I prefer talismans stick to the spirit of the rulesets as well if they're used during the contest. If it was added after this one was over, then sure, it's less of a problem, since you can modify the levels themselves to no longer conform to the rulesets they were submitted for. That's what I plan to do for my "Always Remember" level for its inclusion into Lemmings Memories, though the biggest change I'll be making is replacing all the L2 Pillar pieces with their L1 equivalents, since L2 Pillar isn't one of the planned tilesets for the pack.

[JawaJuice]

I also have solutions for the updated levels. If I were to comment on them, it would actually be close to @kaywhyn's observations above, so I wonder if we've hit on similar solutions (not gonna check at this point, as I don't want spoilers!). My R3 solution definitely looks a lot closer to intended than many of my previous attempts to me.

Sorry to hear you were feeling disheartened, Crane. If they're getting backrouted so much, I guess it just means you've created really challenging levels! If it's any consolation, it's equally frustrating as a player to think you might have cracked it this time, only to be told it's another backroute!

[Armani]

@kayahyn

Your solutions for R1 and R2 match my intended solutions perfectly. R3 is also acceptable.

R1 – I love your logical deduction on this level. This is exactly how I imagine an expert player would approach the solution gradually eliminating possibilities one by one.

R2 – Also intended! This level is all about properly setting up the splatform so the lemming can survive the fall after performing digger+builder.

R3 – You collected all the correct pick-ups and took the intended route. You used the miner in a slightly different way but that's a minor difference and completely acceptable.

[Crane]

I think my R3 level is a little bit broken, but kaywhyn's solution isn't too far off, so I'll let it pass for now!  For the R1 level, it seems I made that steel plate too thick!

I've also removed the talisman for the R2 level for now so as to not encourage people, even if it was titled "Now that's cheating!"

[kaywhyn]

Another resolve for Crane's R1 and sadly another backroute which unfortunately also seems to be going backwards and further from intended again because this time I managed to save even more skills I do agree with @JawaJuice when he mentions that it can be just as frustrating for players thinking their solution is/must be intended only to be told later on that it isn't So yea, still have no clue on what you intend here for R1

[JawaJuice]

That was quick! I'm still working on the latest R1, haven't managed to solve it (or backroute it) yet! I assume my R3 solution was also acceptable - it's pretty similar to @kaywhyn's; a subtle difference in execution that allows the saving of a different skill, but the basic idea is the same.

[JawaJuice]

OK, got another solution for updated R1. It uses all the skills this time, but looks a bit fiddly and hacky, so probably another backroute

EDIT: That was an obvious overcomplication. Did it again, but this time saves more than one skill, so definitely a backroute. Like @kaywhyn, really struggling to see what is intended here.

[Crane]

Do you want me to stop updating then?  I'm sorry for all of the frustration.

EDIT: I give up.  R1 and R3 are broken.  Two levels broken.

[Crane]

I hereby formally request that Lemming Ledger and Reverse the Polarity be removed from the contest and all copies be permanently deleted.  The levels are completely broken and do not meet the high quality that is expected, and thus they are unsuitable for any kind of level pack or competition entry.  Furthermore, considering the frustration being born out of the playtesting, I do not wish to continually contribute to those negative emotions.

[kaywhyn]

That I would leave up to you. I'm not actually frustrated with needing to keep resolving your levels...yet anyway. I was simply in agreement with the sentiment that it can get frustrating where players think their solution is/must be intended, only to be told later on that it's not. Nothing is more satisfying to me than being told that I finally got the intended solution to a level after some updates It can get exhausting with needing to repeatedly resolve updated levels, yes, but as I have been told by some, including you, in the past, eventually there comes a point where further fixes might not be worth it anymore because they might result in the level not looking as good anymore, more fixes might do further harm than good, etc. I think I've gotten somewhat better with letting some acceptable alternatives/variants slide in my more recent stuff, but in my really early stuff I was kind of the same way with not accepting even solutions that differ in one detail. So, I can relate with needing to release so many updates, though I think this is more that I'm just not as good at backroute fixing as I thought I was!  

[Crane]

R1 is broken because it uses elements of the intended solution that can not be patched.  R3 is broken because the blockers can be used in alternative ways with good timing.  Therefore both levels are broken and I want to smash my computers to pieces, but it is more rational and logical to remove myself from the equation for the greater good and to preserve the rationality of others.  If my work upsets others, then it must be destroyed.

I stand by my cold and potentially irrational choice.  R1 and R3 are not suitable levels any more, because the fact they are fundamentally broken.  R1 can possibly be saved by locking the release rate, but I hate doing that and it's against the rules anyway, and I do not want these levels to continue poisoning the collection of good levels out there.  R2 can stay, but it is much, much worse than the other levels in the set.

[JawaJuice]

For my part, I'd just say that if I gave the impression I was upset by these levels, then it was unintentional and I apologize. If any level frustrated me to the point of experiencing negative emotion, I would just step away from it.

[Crane]

I stepped away from them for over a week, and it's not gotten any better for anyone because they are fundamentally broken.  I wish for them to be removed at the earliest possible convenience.  From a game designer's perspective, they do not meet the standards required.