Save One : do you have what it takes to save one Lemming ? (16 levels, medium)

[Guigui]

Hello WillLem,

Thank you a lot for the write up and the kind words ! I'm glad you had a good time with the EON rank. Things may get a bit tougher after, but all remain accessible I hope.

Indeed the pack is small, mainly because I do not have that much time to create many levels and I cannot think about something else when I have a level creation in mind. So I had to get those levels out to be able to move onto something else. I guess this is less intimidating than 100+ levels packs.

Also about the decoration in the levels, thank you again for noticing and appreciating them. Those took way longer than expected to create ; each time I decided to add decoration, they created unwanted backroutes. Countless times during playtests, IchoTolot used what was supposed to be decorations to destroy the levels, evil him !


As for your replays they are perfectly fine and almost intended, congratulations !

I say "almost" intended because of EON 2 : Trust Your Lucky Star ? (the one with big vertical structure at the end). Details under spoilers :

Spoiler

The clever solution you give makes very little use of the crowd : just need a bomber apart from pionneer. Intended uses the crowd a bit more.
I always think interaction with the crowd is better ; if the pionneer can go in by himself, then the whole "Save One" theme falls apart.
I'll certainly work a bit more on the vertical structure to enforce things. I have to find a way to ensure that if one lemming bashes through the structure, then he cannot stop without using a skill.

[kaywhyn]

Ouch, now comes the time when kaywhyn will LP my pack, such a good time  . Many thanks to you, and this whole forum, for making the Lemmings game alive.

Our pleasure! We're very happy to have you!

I'm also very glad that IchoTolot playtested the pack, he helped a lot. Because of the whole "you can only Save One lemming" thing, levels tend to be very prone to backroutes. A single mistake and all Lemmings can go in, not good.
At first I was working alone : make a Save One level --> playtest --> find it's nice --> go to sleep --> launch the level again the morning after --> find 3 backroutes that save more than one --> 

Yup, happens even to the best of us. I've been making custom Lemmings levels for 4 years now and I still haven't gotten a lot better at backroute fixing myself Similarly, just ask others who have been in the level making scene far longer than me, and they will tell you that their levels have still been known to get backrouted. Doesn't matter how long one has been making levels. A person could possibly have been making levels for twice as long, or maybe three times as long, as me (just look at how many patches Lemmings United received after Icho released it!), but still backroutes can result. With experience, over time the amount of backroutes can be drastically reduced, though on occasion one or two can still slip by unnoticed That's pretty much why people have testers for their levels/packs!

So I quickly understood that my solving skills were not good enough to ensure the pack to be solid and asked IchoTolot for help.

Nah, your solving skills are far better than you give yourself credit for. For example, you were able to complete DoveLems, Lemmings Plus 1, nearly all of Weirdyland, and I believe all of Quest for Kieran? This is quite an accomplishment, I must say, so congrats! Even if there are a few levels of a pack you couldn't solve, it is also, in my opinion, a great achievement to come very close to solving all of a level pack, especially one that is really hard

I recently explained to another member in this community that it is a misconception that everyone here is an expert Lemmings level solver. What is true is that nearly every member here has completed at least one of the official Lemmings games and hence possess adequate knowledge of the game. However, few have been able to solve completely many custom Lemmings level packs. This is in large part due to how custom packs tend to be far harder than the official games themselves. The hardest custom packs make ONML look like a pushover, even though a lot of us, myself included, really struggled with that game back in the days.

The only reason why I asked Icho instead of you kaywhyn is because he is moderator on this subforum and he seemed to be more active than you on the forum at this time, I did not want to bother you.

No worries at all. It's simply letting you know that you can also ask me to playtest your levels for future reference You're right that for the last few months I kind of gave the appearance that I wasn't around. In truth, I was, where I checked in a few times whenever I could each day, and simply didn't have anything to post on the site

[Guigui]

Thanks for the kind words kaywhyn. Yeah I must be not that bad at Lemmings 
Quest From Kieran I left aside for the moment, kind of discouraging to me in the last rank.
I also started Lock and Key by Dexter, but it is hard too, cannot get past level 3...
I think I have better time with simpler packs for now.


Following WillLem replays, I changed EON 2 level, new version in the OP.
Sorry for breaking your solution WillLem, but I found it backroutish and it made the level not that interesting.
This may also break IchoTolot and Armani's previous replays, but the core solution is the same.

[IchoTolot]

Eon 2 indeed needed an update. 

I attached my new replay collection.

[Guigui]

Yep, EON 2 looks and solves better now.
Icho does not use the easiest lucky star, but get the Talisman nonetheless !

[Turrican]

 Hi Guigui!

I have tried the first two ranks of your pack , and here are the replays of my solutions.

Very well made levels , and the puzzles have a lot of variety!

Also , in one of the levels ( So many spikes ) , I saved more than one lemming ( 9 lemmings ) .

The following days , I will see If I will be able to try the third rank.

[Guigui]

Thank you for the replays Turrican ! Good job on clearing EON and NEO ranks 

You have some clever solutions here, some of them I consider backroutes :

* EON 2 Trust Your Lucky Star : the pioneer goes in by himself, no crowd needed again  Good job destroying this vertical structure just enough to get through. I think this backroute is not hard to cancel.

* NEO 2 So Many Spikes : you save 9 in a Save One level, you clever evil!! What else could I wait from the Lemmings community ? I will work on this too.

If you plan to try ONE rank, maybe I'll wait for your solutions to see if some things have to be changed there too.
Then again, thank you for trying the pack and the kind words.

[Turrican]

Thank you for your comments! 

About the backroute fixing : I would like
to try also the third rank , but because of various reasons, I have very limited time in general, so I am not sure when I will be able to try the third rank.

So in that case, do the backroute fixes , whenever you want .

[Guigui]

I updated the pack, again. Following levels have changed to fix backroutes.

No major changes, all of you who already solved the levels can do it again (with very few variations maybe, dont bother if you dont feel like it).


EON 2 Trust Your Lucky Star Change to the vertical structure, cannot get through with the pioneer alone, hopefully ! Also Talisman a bit harder imo.

EON 5 Four Shruggers Turrican solution was nice, but he only watched 3 out of 4 shruggers.

NEO 1 One Hot Minute I changed the talisman to "use only 1 climber", removed tighter time limit. The level with 2 climbers is quite easy and open-ended. Looks harder with a single climber.

NEO 2 So Many Spikes Prevented Turrican evil backroute which saved 9!
This was an almost unbelievable turn of events : have the crowd facing right, be at the pixel-precise height that allows to instant-bomb deep enough, and have good enough timing the free the crowd from a basher tunnel with a digger ?!
Brilliant strategy for sure, not intended of course, and what was the probability of all of this being possible ?

[JawaJuice]

I gotta say, @Guigui, there's no way this pack is Medium difficulty, imo. I've completed all Medium packs released to date, including DoveLems (which I also thought was a hard 'Medium') and this has given me considerably more trouble than any of them! On my last attempt, I cleared the first rank but couldn't complete any levels from the second rank. Thought I'd give it another crack just now, but I see your update means two of my replays from before no longer work! I will persevere with it though :-P

[JawaJuice]

OK, your Eon updates didn't pose too much problem actually Replays for this rank attached. I do like your concept with this pack, Guigui; it definitely forces you to approach problems differently, knowing you only have to save one. For my money, Level 4 (Head Bang...) of Eon is by far the trickiest - not just in seeing a solution, but the execution is pretty difficult as well.

Spoiler

I'm not sure if I did Level 2 'properly', I really can't work out what the blocker is supposed to be for there - to stop the progress of the basher after the climber has got past maybe? It seemed easier to just rely on timing and not use the blocker to me, but maybe I'm being obtuse!

[JawaJuice]

Quest From Kieran I left aside for the moment, kind of discouraging to me in the last rank.
I also started Lock and Key by Dexter, but it is hard too, cannot get past level 3...
I think I have better time with simpler packs for now.

For what it's worth, I've tried Quest From Kieran a few times myself and given up every time when I hit the final rank. It's a very hard pack at this point. I found his Abandoned Zone more accessible - did manage to complete that one. I struggle with pretty much everything Dexter has released - Lock and Key was too hard for me as well. The only pack of his (and ∫tan x dx) that I have managed to finish is Lemmings Faithful.

[Guigui]

Thank you for playing the pack JawaJuice, you got all of them solutions as intended in EON rank !

In NEO rank you can clear NEO 1 easily. Maybe NEO 2 starts to get a little more difficult, let me know if you try.

Some comments on your solution :

Spoiler

EON 2 Trust Your Lucky Star ? You have intended for the talisman which saves the blocker : start bashing when the climber is about the height of the Lucky Star ! To my knowledge, this is now the only way to get through the vertical structure w/o using the blocker.

About intended solution using the blocker you are also right : just start bashing at any time, and stop the basher with a blocker when the climber is safe from the traps.

EON 2 Head Bang Bump Wash Dry Turn Blow This one is not that hard, the solution is in the title. Look at the Head of the worker which :
Bang : when he is a digger (you have to be a metal music fan to get the headbang concept )
Bump : when he bumps his head while building
Wash : when he bashes under the water
Dry  : when he walks under the shredder
Turn : when he is a blocker
Blow : When ... Oh No !

[JawaJuice]

The head bang level is not that hard if you realize the key to the solution is in the title, but if you're an idiot like me and just think it's a random title, then trust me, it's hard That level took much longer than any of the others in Eon for me.

You're right about Neo 1 not being too bad (although I have no idea how to get the talisman solution) and I did finish 3 (Eroded Ark) - very clever design that one, well done! As for the other three levels, I'm completely stumped! Level 5 actually caused me to rage quit, which doesn't happen too often! I just can't see how any of these levels are possible. Obviously they are, as people have done them but I'm afraid they're beyond my ability to solve I stand by what I said: this ain't a Medium pack, it's either Medium-Hard or straight-up Hard imo.

[kaywhyn]

@Guigui

Just letting you know that I still plan to get to your level pack, but that all depends on when I'm able to finish Dexter's Lock & Key. My LP of that is currently on hold since that pack is whooping my behind very badly. Says a lot when it's me that's getting stumped! However, I have said plenty of times that Icho and Armani are both far better level solvers than me. I acknowledge and accept that I'm not the best level solver of the game, and that's all right. It was never my aim to be the best level solver, though I suppose that I do have the distinction of having so many packs solved

It's funny, because back when I was a kid I thought I was pretty good at Lemmings. Didn't take me long to realize that I'm not as good as I thought I was was when I first started getting into custom level packs for Lemmings. MazuLems was my very first custom pack I played, but I was a high schooler at the time, and I also played it on Dos. It was really difficult for me, but I eventually was able to get it all solved. I then played some custom level packs, the mini 10-level packs for Dos, and same affair, where some of the ones I played are known to be quite hard, so for some I wasn't able to solve at first but when I came back to them years later I was able to.

@JawaJuice

I gotta say, @Guigui, there's no way this pack is Medium difficulty, imo. I've completed all Medium packs released to date, including DoveLems (which I also thought was a hard 'Medium') and this has given me considerably more trouble than any of them! On my last attempt, I cleared the first rank but couldn't complete any levels from the second rank. Thought I'd give it another crack just now, but I see your update means two of my replays from before no longer work! I will persevere with it though :-P

Keep in mind that the Medium difficulty classification for Guigui's pack was suggested by Icho, who is quite possibly the best level solver in this community. He made Lemmings United, one of the most difficult packs currently in existence, and for which I'm one of three people who solved all of it. Icho was also the one who pre-tested Guigui's pack.

Quest From Kieran I left aside for the moment, kind of discouraging to me in the last rank.
I also started Lock and Key by Dexter, but it is hard too, cannot get past level 3...
I think I have better time with simpler packs for now.

For what it's worth, I've tried Quest From Kieran a few times myself and given up every time when I hit the final rank. It's a very hard pack at this point. I found his Abandoned Zone more accessible - did manage to complete that one. I struggle with pretty much everything Dexter has released - Lock and Key was too hard for me as well. The only pack of his (and ∫tan x dx) that I have managed to finish is Lemmings Faithful.

Yea, Quest From Kieran is a very difficult pack. If you gentlemen had been struggling so much with it, I think my suggestion to Kieran that the pack is Medium - Very Hard is quite accurate then! I pretty much knew from the very first level that it was going to be a hard pack. I also struggled in plenty of places but eventually was able to get to the end.

As for integral of tan xs' and Dexters' packs, yea, I would agree about their earlier packs being hard ones. I've completed them all, though with a lot of backroutes for LemRunner. Even though I'm currently stumped by Solitude 5 of Lock & Key, just from the first 5 levels I say that Dexter's pack is much harder than LemRunner!

Finally, I silently took a look at the two levels that you reported from LemFan's pack as not possible to solve and I too couldn't solve them. You're absolutely right that it seems due to either not enough skills or the wrong skill types provided that make them unsolvable. That report of yours was what made me make a topic on the NeoLemmix Main board about always making a solving replay for any completed levels an author makes

You probably both noticed my signature that includes my channel. A lot of my recent stuff has been posting video solutions to custom Dos/Lemmix packs that I've finally managed to solve completely after being on and off about them for the past several years until I finally succeeded in the last few weeks. Those packs I have video solutions of are all quite difficult!