Lix Community Level Set

[Clam]

Incidentally, I mentioned that I was having trouble with the editor – specifically, is there a guide anywhere to what the buttons mean? Most of them are unintuitive icons.

That's funny, ccexplore just asked the same thing on the IRC . You can bring up mouseover descriptions by pressing the '?' button (bottom row, 6th from right).

I was thinking of remaking this level of mine:
[pic]
although I seem to remember that Lix doesn't support 1-way walls yet. But if anyone wants to try and adapt it, feel free. I'm not going to lay claim to it copyright-wise or anything.

Sure, I'm happy to have a go at this. You can actually create a one-way obstacle with some clever placement of terrain and steel. For example, in my level Santa's Workshop:

the obstacle immediately left of the hatch can only be bashed through from the left. It's not a foolproof setup (if you have enough skills you can force your way through the 'wrong' way), but it can work. That said, there has been some discussion about adding one-way walls, so this might not be needed anyway .



I should add (since this is my first post in the topic), I'm happy to backroute-test any levels that are submitted for this project

[ccexplore]

Slightly out of topic (maybe I should just start another thread for this), but I need to bring up some quirks in the current version of Lix for level editing:

1) If you're using the Windows version, don't switch in and out of the program with Alt+Tab.   If you do, when you switch back you'll almost always find the editor stuck in "Add Steel" screen.  Stuck because if you click on the Cancel button to try to get out (or even if you actually select a steel piece to add), the "Add Steel" screen just pops itself right back up again.  You're forced to kill the program at that point losing any unsaved progress.

2) When dragging terrains/objects around, you have to point the mouse down on a non-transparent pixel to be able to drag.

[ccexplore]

Here's a crappy level I made with Lix.  It was supposed to be somewhat clever, but fundamentally it's a little annoying to execute (in some ways it's worse in Lix due to subtle differences in behavior ) and tricky to enforce. Which also means there are probably some backroutes I've overlooked.  Who knows, maybe one of the backroutes will turn out to be better suited for the community level set.

This is obviously a first draft, so yeah, graphics are not great, to put it charitably.  Because of the small level area, you may find it best to play this level zoomed in the whole time.

Let me know what you think.  I had this silly idea for like 5-6 years and even started a level in Lemmix that I never finished.  So no matter how it turns out for you, I at least have finally gotten it off my chest.   Actually, if you can work the idea into a better form in your own levels, go right ahead.

[edit: it's slightly annoying to execute but should be quite manageable with replays.  The intended solution is supposed to be all-or-nothing, in that if your execution doesn't work out, almost no one exits.]

[edit2: fixed one backroute.  I don't think anyone downloaded the first version though.  Fixed version now has 7 sawblades.]

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[ccexplore]

As a side comment, it seems that the current styles in Lix are severely lacking in hazard objects?  Most of them are in geoo's "construction" set, and they are very good.  But I feel like I'm not getting enough variety of the more traditional hazards (triggered and constant traps) like I do in Lemmings?

[Simon]

finlay: In the editor, there is a button marked "?" which displays on-hover info about the buttons. This should be enabled per default on a fresh installation. I should check whether this is the case, or just make a permanent status bar.

The level project is actually a great usability study. geoo has named tons of little things in IRC already. I'm not in the code often these weeks, but will come back to it at some point.

-- Simon

[Clam]

Here (attached) is a remake of finlay's level with my one-way wall replacement thing. Besides that, it's pretty much a straight rebuild with the closest Lix equivalents I could find .


Quote from: ccexplore on 2012-01-18 03:03:12

Here's a crappy level I made with Lix.

I quite like this one, it's no bigger or more complex than it needs to be. The execution is annoying, yes, but I don't know if it can be helped without giving away too big a hint to the player. My solution is attached, pretty sure it's the intended one given the comments in your post.


Quote from: ccexplore on 2012-01-18 03:18:10

As a side comment, it seems that the current styles in Lix are severely lacking in hazard objects?  Most of them are in geoo's "construction" set, and they are very good.  But I feel like I'm not getting enough variety of the more traditional hazards (triggered and constant traps) like I do in Lemmings?

IIRC the first 'remake' tilesets were abandoned (or at least put on hold for a long time) close to completion, when most of the tiles were done but there were no traps besides just water. I don't know whether there were any traps planned for these sets though.

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[ccexplore]

For "Catch and Release", Clam's solution is indeed the intended one, and geoo's (from IRC) is indeed a backroute.  I've attached a version that hopefully should fix the type of backroutes exemplified by geoo's solution.  The way I ended up fixing the level also inspired me to change the level title to something more fun.

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[Proxima]

Hi everyone.

I received finlay's message directing me to this topic. It's nice to be back -- I notice that it's almost exactly two years since I last posted here, with a very vague goodbye message. I think that was wrong and I should have explained my situation more fully. For the last five years, I've had a part-time job at the Press Association, while also caring for my mother, who has a brain tumour, and trying to get somewhere with my ambition to succeed as a novelist. It got to the point where I felt I just couldn't give time to Lemmings level design as well -- especially since I'd come to realise that my project, a series of linked Cheapo sets covering all difficulties, was simply too ambitious.

However, a series of levels covering all difficulties with all of us contributing sounds like an excellent idea, and I'd definitely be happy to contribute to that -- especially as that would finally give me a sense of reward for the effort I put into making my levels. I gather that you're using a new clone named "Lix"; can you tell me more about it, what features it supports etc.? Many of my favourites from my Cheapo levels used vertical scrolling and custom traps, for example.

I'm on a new computer these days, but fortunately the fine chaps at the computer shop were able to save my old hard drive, so I still have all my old files... but I haven't tried loading up either Cheapo or the editor on Natsuki yet so I don't know how much of the editing I'll be able to do myself... fingers crossed. As well as the levels you remember, I had a complete set of 30 easy levels, some of which fell into the old trap of too much building, but it shouldn't be too difficult to use that set as a starting-point and improve it rather than copying the levels exactly as they are.

My best wishes for 2012 to all of you, of course I'll be back in here at least once a day to see how this is going and answer any questions about my levels.

[geoo]

Hey Proxima, welcome back!

I think it's reasonable to take a break when you're too occupied with things in real life. I know at some point I was also only quickly scanning through the new posts, and skipping the challenges topic even, though I guess in my case it was just work piling up, fortunately. It's certainly nice to see you back!

The most notable feature in Lix is probably that you can play multiplayer (up to 8 players) over network. This isn't relevant to this level project, but it sure is great fun.
It runs under Windows, Linux and Mac (though I think the Mac version is slightly outdated right now, not sure).
The are a few new skills, and usability features like savestates and fast forward. While it technically supports the old DOS lemmings level format, these require the DOS graphics files, and as the game is supposed to be free, these cannot be used in the project.
But the game comes with new terrain styles instead, e.g. mine are currently in progress and if you want, you can also design your own so they can be added to the game, or just some custom objects to be added. Level editor is included, the level format doesn't have the limitations of the original game, so yes, you can make levels that scroll vertically (and even wrap around if you want).

Quote from: Clam Spammer on 2012-01-18 04:37:48

Quote from: ccexplore on 2012-01-18 03:18:10

As a side comment, it seems that the current styles in Lix are severely lacking in hazard objects?  Most of them are in geoo's "construction" set, and they are very good.  But I feel like I'm not getting enough variety of the more traditional hazards (triggered and constant traps) like I do in Lemmings?

IIRC the first 'remake' tilesets were abandoned (or at least put on hold for a long time) close to completion, when most of the tiles were done but there were no traps besides just water. I don't know whether there were any traps planned for these sets though.

Those styles were made with the intention that each terrain piece's mask matches one of the pieces from the original game. The idea was to allow players who don't have to original styles still play the many old levels we made. It had downsides, like sticking to low-res so that e.g. slopes didn't look too nice, and some tiles just had masks unique enough that it was hard to remake them. Eventually the effort was abandoned, some of the tiles are still used in Matt's new styles though.
Matt isn't much of a level designer, so the styles weren't made with all the intricacies of level design in mind. Not sure whether the lack of traps is a result of that as well.
In any case, I'm still working on my styles, so if you have some objects/terrain tiles in mind you'd like to see, drop me a note. (In that regard, some design ideas for the hatch/exit of the shadow style would be nice.) I can probably also add objects to Matt's styles if you have something specific that fits there.
btw, for sandstone levels, you can also use the torches/braziers as fire hazards, they look nice there.

Solved the new version of the level (old backroute attached for completeness), "Top Gear". It's a bit tricky to execute, yeah. I usually try to add terrain hints or shape the terrain to fix the skill placement that the execution gets easier in these cases, but it's a bit harder in non-bumpy styles (Perhaps adding a terrain hint at the bottom, and then heighten the tower such that mining from the very right does that job could help?). I was wondering why you misaligned the blocks, initially I thought it was to subtly decrease the total fall distance, but my current solution doesn't make use of that. Did you perhaps think that the black borders at the bottom of the blocks are not terrain? Because if you use the grid, everything will align nicely.
Apart from that, I like the level idea, and design-wise it looks pretty nice and clean as well (save for the overlap of the blocks which bugs me a bit).

I finally remade 'Level with strange blocks', and Clam got a good new name for it. It's quite a bit different, so I don't know whether it gets easier or harder; perhaps you should refrain from trying this level if you still want to have a go at the original Cheapo version (though I think you really shouldn't have (had) that much trouble with it if you give it another go). There was a 4-builder version of it while designing it, but I opted for the 5 builder one because I find it to be cleaner like that. 3-builder version like in Cheapo would be possible as well theoretically. But don't let yourself be confused by these comments. Anyway, due to the 2 additional builders, I kinda expect backroutes, though Clam did some testing already. And it's kinda ugly...

Clam's remake of finlay's levels looks nice as well, especially the one-way gadget looks a bit better than in Santa's Workshop. Perhaps I should make some endpieces for the pillars, them being cut off bugs me a bit.

I'll add these new levels to the list when you think they're final if you don't mind.

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[finlay]

Here (attached) is a remake of finlay's level with my one-way wall replacement thing. Besides that, it's pretty much a straight rebuild with the closest Lix equivalents I could find .

Cool. There's a few things I maybe want to change about the level in the end, though, particularly the name, which I'm not too happy about. I now kind of just mentally call it the "climbing level".

By the way, is it possible to have in the editor a guideline tool for death drops, bridge lengths, bomber holes, etc?

[ccexplore]

By the way, is it possible to have in the editor a guideline tool for death drops, bridge lengths, bomber holes, etc?

I already started working on something sorta like that when doing my own level, by creating the left and right build bridges as decorative objects.  I guess I could do the same for the other things on your list.

However, note that they are not quite the same as true guideline objects in, say, Cheapo,  because the objects will actually show up visually when playing the level, so you'll have to remember to delete them before releasing the level.  Also, because right now all decorative objects are drawn behind terrain, the only way to implement guideline objects for things like bomber holes is to actually create them as terrain objects, which means you'll need to move them out of the way even for playtesting.

So ultimately, what we need is some support from Simon to properly support such objects in Lix (namely, guideline objects only show up in level editor and not in actual play or preview, and that they can be drawn in front of terrain).

[Nortaneous]

I tried to remake Ball Pit from my levelpack, but I ended up with a new level. (Is the time limit too restrictive? My best time leaves five seconds to spare...)

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[Clam]

I built a couple of new levels, not sure whether they will end up in the community level set or my own set, but I feel I should post them here to avoid being lonely . 'Hidden Springs' I shared over the IRC already, it's quite simple but should be fun to work out. 'Death Slide' is totally new (even to the IRC), I expect the likes of geoo, Simon and ccexplore to figure it out, otherwise don't panic too much if you can't solve it .
(edit: reuploaded, removed a digger)
(edit2: removed all unneeded skills, lowered lix count)


Quote from: Nortaneous on 2012-01-18 21:19:18

I tried to remake Ball Pit from my levelpack, but I ended up with a new level. (Is the time limit too restrictive? My best time leaves five seconds to spare...)

I had over a minute to spare, not sure if I might have backrouted it though, my solution is attached. (edit: also see ccexplore's comment below )

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[ccexplore]

Simon and geoo has been very vocal against unnecessarily tight time limits recently.  You may want to consider making the level untimed (set time limit to 0) unless the time limit serves a purpose (eg. backroute elimination).  Otherwise when the final community set gets compiled they might just take out the time limit in the level anyway.

[ccexplore]

Here's my attempt at decorating "Top Gear" so it fills out the 640x400 area.  Although I'd be the first to admit maybe it's a bit excessive. If it's not really that big a deal to have the level height be notably smaller than 400, I can remove some of the more excessive bits.

I made some minor adjustments to the terrain for visual purposes, but sorry, I still find myself preferring the softer edges I get from not perfectly aligning the 64x32 blocks the way geoo intended.  I also made an attempt to add a subtle (too subtle?) visual hint related to the positioning of one of the moves.

Two important changes that I'd like some backroute checking for are: 1) I extended the level area horizontally, so you can now do some moves in the new area that you couldn't before.  My intention is that you don't get any backroutes from this change, let's see if I'm correct.  2) I removed the laser above the bottom exit, as I believe it's no longer necessary given the other changes I had already made.  Again, let's see if I'm correct or not.

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