Lemmings Update (PlayStation 3)

[AlgoTomar]

Some random thoughts:

1) Suppose there was a cheat code that gave you 99 of every Tool.  That would explain many of the impossible times.

2) The US leaderboards are also dominated by piooner-mk6-100.  That guy is either the greatest Lemmings player or the only one with the cheat code, haha.

3) I replayed Mayhem 10 with the goal of saving just 1 lemming as quickly as possible.  It took me 64 seconds.  Now even with the release rate maxed out there is about 15 seconds of "distance" between L1 and L50, so saving all 50 should require a minimum of 89 seconds.  But piooner-mk6-100 did it in 1:05.58 (65.58 seconds).  I dare say that is "impossible" unless there is a way to make lemmings run instead of walk!

[Frevett]

Some random thoughts:

1) Suppose there was a cheat code that gave you 99 of every Tool.  That would explain many of the impossible times.

If there is a cheat I guess it's most likely this; but it'd mean anyone who has the cheat doesn't use it to save more lemmings than is legitimately possible.

2) The US leaderboards are also dominated by piooner-mk6-100.  That guy is either the greatest Lemmings player or the only one with the cheat code, haha.

Odd. Does that mean he's paid for the game twice?

3) I replayed Mayhem 10 with the goal of saving just 1 lemming as quickly as possible.  It took me 64 seconds.  Now even with the release rate maxed out there is about 15 seconds of "distance" between L1 and L50, so saving all 50 should require a minimum of 89 seconds.  But piooner-mk6-100 did it in 1:05.58 (65.58 seconds).  I dare say that is "impossible" unless there is a way to make lemmings run instead of walk!

A <89 second perfect solution is (in theory) possible. I've tweaked what I was doing earlier, and now have a 49/50 solution in 66.12 seconds. What happens is the lemmings that exit later catch up with the first lemming (they don't all have to bridge the final gap, which is what slows down L1). The playthrough I just had actually had L1 (well, the lemming that bridges the final gap) as the final lemming saved as the rest of them overtook it as it was finishing its bridge and shrugging before stepping off the end.

[AlgoTomar]

Odd. Does that mean he's paid for the game twice?

Yes.  I chatted with someone at ps3trophies dot org who bought all 3 versions (US, EU, JPN) to get the trophies 3 times!  On your trophy list it counts as 3 separate games even though they are all identical in terms of gameplay.

What happens is the lemmings that exit later catch up with the first lemming (they don't all have to bridge the final gap, which is what slows down L1). The playthrough I just had actually had L1 (well, the lemming that bridges the final gap) as the final lemming saved as the rest of them overtook it as it was finishing its bridge and shrugging before stepping off the end.

Ah, good point!

[Pooty]

I'd love to know how piooner-mk6-100 does it. He's not only just beaten many of the top times; he's absolutely demolished them. He managed to knock me off the top spot for Taxing 07 (EU) by 4 seconds (though my #1 ranking for Tricky 07 still stands. ).

But what has really grabbed my interest is Fun 09. Everyone else has settled on 1:26 minutes. His time, however, is 36 seconds.   Try as I might, I just can't see how this is possible.

[AlgoTomar]

I did Taxing 07 in 41.50 seconds which I thought was pretty good, but it's nowhere near the Top 5.

What is your time on Tricky 07?  (just curious...)

I have a partial solution that might explain how Fun 09 in 36 seconds is possible, but I can't figure out how to finish it.  It's very tricky:

1. Pause and set release rate to 50
2. As soon as L2 appears at top of screen, pause and set release rate back to 1
3. Basically, we need to find a way to make lemmings turn around without using the Blocker
4. Make L1 start building in center of the flat land
5. L2 will climb the ramp that L1 is building
6. As soon as L2 falls off the edge of L1's ramp and hits the ground, immediately set L2 to a builder
7. L2 will start building but hit his head on the underside of L1's ramp
8. This makes L2 turn around and start walking to the left
9. By now, L3 has hit the ground and is walking right
10. Don't worry about L1 any more -- just let him fall in the green muck and die
11. You now have two builders left.  L2 and L3 must build in the shape of λ to force all remaining lemmings to do an about-face and walk left -- (this is the part I can't make work -- the humps on the ground are critical to the placement if this method is really possible)

[Frevett]

What is your time on Tricky 07?  (just curious...)

He's got 33.54, about 12 seconds ahead of second place. Piooner isn't even in the top 5 for that one.

I have a partial solution that might explain how Fun 09 in 36 seconds is possible, but I can't figure out how to finish it.  It's very tricky:

I see what you're trying to do, but can't make it work either. Does a lambda shaped bridge force the lemmings to turn? I thought they'd still step round the bridge as normal. I know the double thick bridge still turns lemmings who approach it from the wrong side, but can't see how to get two lemmings to turn around to build it with only 4 bridges to use.

Made no more progress on saving 50 in 70 seconds on Mayhem 10. Here's what I'm doing if anyone else wants to try:

1. Make the third lemming dig as soon as he hits the ground (you can make the first dig if you want, but I've found this way helps with the precision clicking coming up)
2. About 10 lemmings will escape the pit being dug, and the first two will be a little ahead.
3. What you need to do is turn most of the lemmings back, but have at least two lemmings drop down below (one to bridge the trap, one to bridge the final gap by the exit).
4. If you have two diggers either side of a blocker (this really needs to be pixel-perfect) they will free the blocker, but their pits will be separated by a small column of terrain.
5. Of the two lemmings slightly ahead of the other escapees, wait until they have just passed over the trap beneath them, then make the second one of them a blocker; then immediately make the first one a digger. (This is why the slight gap is useful, the lemming ahead is already in the right place to dig; and if there's no gap then an extra lemming will escape the blocker. If you do it the other way round then you have to worry about not digging too early so that you free the blocker you just placed.)
6. This is the hard part. You want the final lemming that escaped the pit to dig the exact instant he turns round from the blocker. If done right this will free the blocker and he will walk into the pit that the lemming further ahead is digging, and this pit will be too deep for him to escape.
7. With this timing, the first pit should finish with the two lemmings facing in opposite directions. Leave it as late as you can to make them floaters; and make the digger that freed the blocker a floater as soon as possible. You want to leave the two lemmings that hit the floor as much of a headstart as possible.
8. The lemming that heads left towards the trap should bridge the trap as late as possible (this is the part I haven't got to work yet, I'm not fully sure it's possible) He needs to have built up to the wall before the other digger drops down and walks over the bridge (he'll turn round due to the wall and get killed by the trap through the bridge)
9. As soon as the bridge over the trap is done, immediately bash the digger who's digging down the main body of lemmings. They'll drop onto the bridge and all head towards the portal.
10. The lemming who headed right should bridge the gap to the exit as you'd expect.
11. If all is done right the other 49 lemmings will catch up with him just as he finishes bridging and exit in around 67 seconds.

Notes:
- freeing the blocker needs to be perfectly timed. Even when I know when to dig I still mess it up 9 out of 10 times.
- it is possible (and perhaps easier to time) to free the blocker with the second digger still facing right. However this means you'll get two lemmings facing right; and as the first lemming has more bridging to do before safety compared to the lemming bridging the trap, I don't think this is the right way to do it.
- if you look at the terrain right at the start; just before the steel there are three long ovals in it. If you set off a digger near the right hand side of the first oval, his pit will contain an overhang sticking out from the right hand side. I don't know if this is helpful in any way. It seems (it's happened twice for me) that if you dig in a certain spot, the overhang will be the right size so that there's a large enough gap in the ground for him to stop digging; but he will step onto the overhang and hence turn right before dropping down. I can't see how to get this to help, but I figured it was interesting enough to mention.
- if you follow my method above you'll have one digger left over. I can't see a way of using that to slow down the third lemming that hits the ground by the trap. I've tried making the blocker start digging as soon as he is freed (before he drops into the pit being dug to his right) but it doesn't slow him down enough.

[Pooty]

I have a partial solution that might explain how Fun 09 in 36 seconds is possible, but I can't figure out how to finish it.  It's very tricky:

Yeah, I think that might just work. I think a stack of 5 builder blocks are needed to make a lemming turn around. Of course, you only have four builders, meaning this method would make the placement of the third builder absolutely crucial.

[ccexplore]

I have a partial solution that might explain how Fun 09 in 36 seconds is possible, but I can't figure out how to finish it.  It's very tricky:

Yeah, I think that might just work. I think a stack of 5 builder blocks are needed to make a lemming turn around. Of course, you only have four builders, meaning this method would make the placement of the third builder absolutely crucial.

Well, I unfortunately don't own a PS3 so I can't test anything out, but assuming Pooty is right about the stack of 5 builder blocks, and based further on limited screenshots of PS3 Lemmings as well as similar tricks in old-school PC Lemmings, I've attached a screenshot diagram of one possible method you can try and see if it works for you on PS3.

[Pooty]

Yep, that was exactly what I had envisaged. After many attempts, I got as close to that diagram as is possible in this game, and it didn't work.

The third builder is the trouble area. What you see here was the earliest moment I could possibly deploy it. Build one frame earlier, and it would start building from the next brick up. 

The crosshair shows how close I was to making the plan work.

[Edit] Oh yeah, forgot to mention that there is a slight dent in the terrain that I tried to take advantage of in an attempt to give my building an extra lift. Still not enough. I feel like crying right now!

[ccexplore]

In the way I envision it to work in my diagram, your second builder (B) starts building as soon as he steps off from the first builder (A)'s 1st block.  The timing needs to be such that B lays one block, in the meanwhile A lays his 2nd block, and then B tries to step up but can't due to A's 2nd block.  B turns around as a result, and walks up onto A's 2nd block.  Immediately have B start building.  The idea is that with this setup, A hasn't laid his 3rd block yet when B turns around and steps up onto A's bridge, which would avoid the problem you have where B starts building too high.  So I guess the question is why you can't get it to work that way.

Another thing to consider if you're having trouble executing certain parts due to inability to select the correct lemming to assign skill to (because there are multiple lemmings under the selection crosshair), you might be able to change which lemming gets selected based on how early that lemming came out of the entrance trapdoor.  For example, with a floater and appropriate RR, you can make the 2nd lemming out overtake the 1st lemming out, so that it's the 2nd lemming out that lays the first bridge.

Finally, I wasn't able to find a good screenshot of this level.  If there are other bumps or otherwise unevenness in the terrain, it may be possible to concoct a different setup taking advantages of such bumps.  Put a good screenshot and maybe I can come up with something.

[edit: from AlgoTomar's page of screenshots, it looks like the relevant terrain here where you can build is pretty much flat, so it doesn't look like there's much to help you out terrain-wise]

[AlgoTomar]

Put a good screenshot and maybe I can come up with something.

Some good screenshots here:  http://portforward.com/games/walkthroughs/Lemmings/Fun-Level-9.htm

You can click on the images to enlarge.

[ccexplore]

Wow, no updates on this?  So I guess my idea totally doesn't work then?

Oh well, best of luck to achieving/beating other leaderboard records I guess.

[Frevett]

I can't seem to make the second lemming bump his head on the second bridgepiece laid by the first, he just keeps on building through it. A way to framestep would be very helpful. It has to be something similar to your diagram though. 36 seconds (the top score) is pretty much exactly how long it takes the main body of lemmings to reach the exit.

I've pretty much given up on how to get near the top scores on the last two levels. Pretty sure M9 needs a completely different path, and I still can't save the blocker in 70 seconds on M10.

I've been looking at Fun 6. The method I have means that even if I bridge the 6 non-climbers up straight away, it still takes around two minutes to get them to the exit (ignoring that some of them catch up with the digger at the end and so fall through facing the wrong way). Piooner has it in just over 90 seconds. The only other alternative I can see to bridging them up is to use the diggers to remove the wall in the way, but it's too thick to remove with just two; and you need a third to get through the platform just above the exit.

[ccexplore]

I can't seem to make the second lemming bump his head on the second bridgepiece laid by the first, he just keeps on building through it. A way to framestep would be very helpful. It has to be something similar to your diagram though. 36 seconds (the top score) is pretty much exactly how long it takes the main body of lemmings to reach the exit.

I see, I'm kinda afraid something like that might happen.  I wonder though, maybe the reason it doesn't work is because the second bridgepiece is simply too low for the PS3's builder game mechanics to detect?  If so, I wonder if the following setup (see diagram) might work.  This is what's supposed to happen, once again, it may fail spectacularly with PS3 game mechanics:

1) the 1st lemming (A) needs to lay his 2nd bridgepiece just as the 2nd lemming (B) falls off from A's first bridgepiece (ie. B never steps up onto A's 2nd bridgepiece, but that bridgepiece needs to be laid as soon as possible nevertheless)

2) when B lands, immediately assign him builder.

3) hopefully the timing works out such that when B is about to step up, A has just laid his 3rd bridgepiece that B would bump his head on

4) now this part I am most uncertain about:  in PC Lemmings, if the builder stops building due to bumping his head onto a ceiling, the game always move the lemming up onto the step he just laid, before doing the turn-around.  I have no idea how PS3 reacts in this situation especially since I don't know if it treats the 3rd bridgepiece as a ceiling or a wall (or something else).

But if PS3 reacts similarly to the PC Lemmings ceiling case, it might just be possible for B to start building the yellow bridge in the position shown in the diagram.  You must assign B builder immediately after he stops building, not giving him a chance to walk (otherwise he'd get up onto A's 3rd bridgepiece).

5) Another uncertain part is whether B will be able to lay the second yellow bridgepiece in the diagram.  The hope is that A's 3rd bridgepiece (in red) is low enough that B will build through it (just like the failure you encountered with my first diagram), and A's 4th bridgepiece (not depicted) is far enough to the right that it is undetectable by B.

6) If the yellow bridge works then once again, one final bridgepiece (green) by a 3rd lemming will create the stack of 5.