Author Topic: [SUPERLEMMINI] Ron Stard's Rodents  (Read 611 times)

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Offline Ron_Stard

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Re: [SUPERLEMMINI] Ron Stard's Rodents
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2020, 09:58:43 pm »
However, there is a bug that should not be happening on level 9, and that is the lemmings don't splat when they should.

Fixed (one more time). I don't know why the maxFallDistance was higher here, but not on the rest of the levels. You can edit the lvl0009.ini and replace maxFallDistance = 252 to maxFallDistance = 126.

Also, 10 is barely solvable, because when bashing the lemming still destroys the steel partially. It's still solvable, but there is one, and only one, basher position that will work so that all of the wall is destroyed but none of the steel gets destroyed. Any other position will result in the basher stopping too soon and the wall not completely destroyed, preventing the bottom entrance from climbing the wall.

Such degree of precision is intentional. After all, it's the final and harder level!
I planned very carefully the scenario and the position of steel, and even the wood to bash is carefully draw, in order to leave a clean path for the climbers.

Thank you for your feedback!
« Last Edit: June 17, 2020, 10:04:16 pm by Ron_Stard »

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [SUPERLEMMINI] Ron Stard's Rodents
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2020, 10:53:13 pm »
You can edit the lvl0009.ini and replace maxFallDistance = 252 to maxFallDistance = 126.

Not when the pack is provided as a lzp. In this case, there are no lvl files to edit. If there was a lvl file, I would had changed it myself. In any case, since you already fixed it, there's no need for me to.

Such degree of precision is intentional. After all, it's the final and harder level!
I planned very carefully the scenario and the position of steel, and even the wood to bash is carefully draw, in order to leave a clean path for the climbers!

Ok, but if you weren't aware that steel can be destroyed in Superlemmini, then this can potentially be a problem for a level like 10. At the same time, I must admit that took me by surprise, as I apparently have forgotten that steel can still be destroyed in Superlemmini when all this time I thought I vaguely remember that steel couldn't be destroyed. I think part of the problem here is that steel cannot be destroyed in Lemmini just like in Neolemmix, and so I thought it would be the same in Superlemmini. Because steel cannot be destroyed in any way in Neolemmix, the solution for 10 is much easier to pull off there.

Thanks for being prompt in fixing up the pack for Superlemmini. Out of the levels, I say Marooned was the hardest one because of the timing and skill placements. The solution was easy to see, just the execution was difficult. The rest weren't too difficult, including 8.

Offline Ron_Stard

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Re: [SUPERLEMMINI] Ron Stard's Rodents
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2020, 08:25:05 am »

Ok, but if you weren't aware that steel can be destroyed in Superlemmini, then this can potentially be a problem for a level like 10. At the same time, I must admit that took me by surprise, as I apparently have forgotten that steel can still be destroyed in Superlemmini when all this time I thought I vaguely remember that steel couldn't be destroyed. I think part of the problem here is that steel cannot be destroyed in Lemmini just like in Neolemmix, and so I thought it would be the same in Superlemmini.
Actually, I did know steel could be partially destroyed not only in SuperLemmini, but also in (Vanilla) Lemmix and Original/CustLemm/Amiga/etc Lemmings, except NeoLemmix. And that's why I was very careful at placing steel and wood shapes. I personally find the original behaviour ilogical, and I think the NeoLemmix one is more natural and rational.

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [SUPERLEMMINI] Ron Stard's Rodents
« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2020, 09:33:31 am »
Your statement would mean that you did indeed test some levels in Superlemmini, including 10, to make sure they're solvable, just not thoroughly, so now you need to make sure you do it for all your levels. You did good for your first attempt at a level pack, but moving forward take the lesson of level testing for solvability to heart. Remember, just because the levels work for some engines doesn't automatically mean they'll work for all, which is why it will be necessary to tweak some levels so that they still remain solvable in a particular engine.

Well that's exactly what steel is: terrain that you can't destroy with destructive skills under "normal circumstances." Most of the time, you can destroy part of it only if you take away terrain that's destructible at the same time, i.e, you bash/mine/dig steel and normal terrain at the same time. Neolemmix removed all known glitches, including steel and hence why steel is completely indestructible in that engine. Solutions that involve destruction of steel generally are backroutes that allows one to save more than the necessary amount, but most of the time such solutions are used in challenges, e.g, the lose 2 solution to Mayhem 29 Save Me.

Offline Tsyu

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Re: [SUPERLEMMINI] Ron Stard's Rodents
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2020, 05:15:41 am »
In SuperLemmini, the actual default behavior (and the one used in this level pack) is to make steel completely indestructible. The reason this doesn't happen with the levels included with SuperLemmini is that they include a flag (classicSteel = true) to make steel behave like in the original games.

I did notice that some of the steel pieces in level 10 of this pack aren't actually marked as steel; the attached picture highlights these in red. Also, the steel areas aren't perfectly aligned with the steel pieces, so it's possible to destroy a sliver of some of their edges.

Offline Ron_Stard

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Re: [SUPERLEMMINI] Ron Stard's Rodents
« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2020, 08:15:34 am »
In SuperLemmini, the actual default behavior (and the one used in this level pack) is to make steel completely indestructible. The reason this doesn't happen with the levels included with SuperLemmini is that they include a flag (classicSteel = true) to make steel behave like in the original games.

I did notice that some of the steel pieces in level 10 of this pack aren't actually marked as steel; the attached picture highlights these in red. Also, the steel areas aren't perfectly aligned with the steel pieces, so it's possible to destroy a sliver of some of their edges.

So, if I disable classicSteel, the steel would be indestructible? Didn't know about that, I made and test the level with Lemmix mechanics and physics, and then converted it. That's the reason of the misaligned steel.

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [SUPERLEMMINI] Ron Stard's Rodents
« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2020, 09:35:56 pm »
Thanks for this Tsyu. Indeed, steel being indestructible in Superlemmini was the behavior I remembered. However, I did check with ONML and it turns out that I didn't remember that steel could still partially be destroyed, but it's just like you said, the packs that came with Superlemmini have the steel glitch behaviors where it can still be partially destroyed. All other custom packs I loaded up have indestructible steel, just like you described. This is quite interesting, as steel in Lemmini is indestructible, whether it's a pack that came with it or a custom pack, and indeed this behavior carries over to Superlemmini as well, but only in custom packs.