[SUG][PLAYER] Displaying Talismans In-Level

[WillLem]

I've had an idea about how to display talismans in-level that would solve 3 problems:

1) How much space talisman text takes up in the pre-screen

2) Forgetting exactly what the talisman is whilst playing

3) Players missing multiple-talisman levels due to the pre-screen only displaying one at a time (there also may be solutions in which it's possible to get 2 talismans in one go)

So, here it is:

Add 3 talisman icons to the panel, one for each colour (they would only appear when a relevant talisman is present).

When the player clicks on the talisman, it is highlighted, and the relevant criteria for achieving it are immediately applied to the level: time/skill limitations, save requirement, etc. No text is actually required, it simply adjusts the level according to the talisman criteria. Another possibility might be that the player can choose to select all 3 talismans in one go (N.B. this may need to be specified by the level author during editing in case they aren't achievable in combination with one another - so only compatible talismans could be highlighted simultaneously). Or, they may wish to take them on one at a time; either way, at least the player is aware of how many there are to be achieved altogether.

It could also be that doing this restarts the level as well, as it would no doubt need to be played from the beginning due to there being a different solution.

Furthermore, it could also be that if the player clicks the highlighted talisman(s) again, they become unhighlighted and the criteria is reverted back to normal.

In the case of there being more than 3 talismans, then.... well, I guess this idea wouldn't work for that scenario unless someone brainier than me can think of a way to make it work.

EDIT: To reduce confusion for new players, the first time a talisman is selected, a dialog box could popup "This will apply the (Colour) Talisman criteria and restart the level. Do you wish to continue? Yes/No" with a "Do not show this message again" checkbox.

Thoughts?

[Proxima]

I completely agree that we need a better UI for talismans, and this is probably the biggest UI issue still to be solved before we reach the "final" version of NL.

However, there are some obvious problems with your idea. First, there may be more than one talisman of the same colour. Second, changing the level doesn't work for "maximum number of total skills" talismans. Third, restarting the level is intrusive -- especially if the player is just checking the talisman requirements and might have almost finished the level! Finally, it's not clear how to make room for extra panel buttons, and you have to consider both the full and compact skill panels here.

My idea is that there should be a "talisman info" hotkey that brings up a popup window with information on all the talismans for the current level (including rank, requirements, and whether the talisman has been previously achieved).

[WillLem]

My idea is that there should be a "talisman info" hotkey that brings up a popup window with information on all the talismans for the current level (including rank, requirements, and whether the talisman has been previously achieved).

That's a much better idea to be fair. But, there could be a panel button as well - or even just a small graphic near where the timer/lem count is displayed to indicate the presence of a talisman, and how many there are, to prompt the player to check the info.

[Dullstar]

I do think some way of allowing the engine to enforce the talisman restrictions would be helpful when trying to get them, but of course, if the talisman conditions are accomplished while not being enforced, it should still count. It should also be possible to undo the restriction at any time so you can give up on the talisman and simply go for the regular solution without having to restart the level.

This would be particularly useful for some of the harder talisman conditions to keep track of (is the one where you can only assign one skill per lemming still a thing, for example, or was that culled? If it's still around, I certainly wouldn't use it because the UI provides no way of keeping track of which lemmings you've assigned skills to)

[Proxima]

This would be particularly useful for some of the harder talisman conditions to keep track of (is the one where you can only assign one skill per lemming still a thing, for example, or was that culled? If it's still around, I certainly wouldn't use it because the UI provides no way of keeping track of which lemmings you've assigned skills to)

You can see which lemmings have taken skills through the replay editor (my hotkey is E, which I believe is the default). But no, the one-skill-per-lemming and one-lemming-only talismans aren't supported at the moment, which is a pity, as both types can be really good puzzles.

[namida]

Regarding in-level display (preview screen to be discussed elsewhere, in due time), here's a "starting point" for my idea of how this could work.

I'd like to add a hotkey, and maybe even a panel button on the full-size panel, that toggles a "talisman mode". When this mode is active, any skill for which remaining usage is limited will display the skill count in one of two different colors - one color would represent "you can only use this many of this skill due to a limit on this individual skill", the other would be "you can only use this many of this skill due to a total limit". Something similar would apply to save requirements and time limits. Perhaps the max total skill count could also be displayed, when no lemming is mouseovered, in the area where mouseovered lemming info appears.

If a button exists for this on the panel, it could have a different graphic depending on whether there's one talisman or multiple. I'm divided on whether to use a popup menu or a "cycle through the talismans each time the button is clicked" approach; in the latter case, a right click on the button could reset to "no talisman" at all times (whereas a left click, "no talisman" would merely be one of the things it cycles through).

Questions are:
- While a talisman is active, should the player outright be prevented from going over the talisman's requirements?
- If not, should there be some feedback when it occurs?
- Or if so, what happens if the player tries to activate talisman mode when they've already exceeded the requirements for it?

To be clear, activating Talisman Mode would not be a prerequisite to getting the talisman. It'd just be a way to view live, in-game, what the restrictions are and how close you are to them.

[WillLem]

When this mode is active, any skill for which remaining usage is limited will display the skill count in one of two different colors - one color would represent "you can only use this many of this skill due to a limit on this individual skill", the other would be "you can only use this many of this skill due to a total limit".

I don't understand. Do you mean that the skill would display two numbers of different colours...?

I'm divided on whether to use a popup menu or a "cycle through the talismans each time the button is clicked" approach

+1 for a cycling panel button - I like this idea! It's similar to the idea I had but a much more simple and elegant way of implementing it. I definitely think that the button should animate though, so that it "clicks".

(Incidentally, I also still think that all the buttons should have a "clicked" graphic to give the panel more depth and texture, particularly in hi-res mode. I've suggested it here as part of the 12.10.0 topic).

- If not, should there be some feedback when it occurs?

+1 for this. It seems the simplest solution, and could be represented by something as simple as the talisman button turning red.

[Strato Incendus]

+1. Especially on early ranks, I like to pay attention to talismans, just to make the solutions more interesting. At least when I'm playing other people's levels. My own levels are usually so restrictive in terms of skills provided that I'd rather just have easy puzzles that use up all your skills than open-ended ones that then tell you the actually interesting solution in a footnote as a talisman.

And as WillLem described, this "footnote" character of the talismans is precisely what makes it easy for the player to forget about their requirements while playing - in contrast to skills being subtracted from the panel, or lemmings you're allowed to lose, which are "hard" level requirements that will cause you to lose the level if you violate them.

Thus, if we have the hard requirements visible on the panel, the soft level requirements should be visible there, as well!

[Proxima]

I think that a "talisman mode" could be a workable idea, but personally I would prefer a popup window that gives the requirements in a text block. That could be partly through inertia, but it's also a matter of how I find it easiest to receive and absorb information. I don't want to have to look all over the screen and double-check "is there a limit to X skill? is there a time requirement? is there a max skills requirement?" -- I'd like a simple, concise display of what the requirements are. Conversely, once I've had this information, I personally wouldn't have a problem remembering it -- so I can absolutely see why "talisman mode" would be preferable to players who do prefer the information to be constantly displayed so they don't have to commit it to memory. Maybe the correct solution is for both to exist.

[WillLem]

Maybe the correct solution is for both to exist.

+1 for both existing!

[namida]

I think that a "talisman mode" could be a workable idea, but personally I would prefer a popup window that gives the requirements in a text block. That could be partly through inertia, but it's also a matter of how I find it easiest to receive and absorb information. I don't want to have to look all over the screen and double-check "is there a limit to X skill? is there a time requirement? is there a max skills requirement?" -- I'd like a simple, concise display of what the requirements are. Conversely, once I've had this information, I personally wouldn't have a problem remembering it -- so I can absolutely see why "talisman mode" would be preferable to players who do prefer the information to be constantly displayed so they don't have to commit it to memory. Maybe the correct solution is for both to exist.

My thoughts is that showing the requirements in a block like that is for the menu. Do you feel it's necessary to be able to access this information in-game, in a way that simply "activate talisman mode once, at the start of the level" doesn't achieve? (Or, that talisman mode alone, under said start-of-level conditions, wouldn't make it clear enough?)

EDIT: On second thought, yeah, I can see situations where this wouldn't be clear enough. So it's more just a question of, do you specifically think it needs to be possible to view the requirements, as a whole, while in-game?

[Proxima]

I'm a little unsure what you're saying here, since in the "New menu design" topic you referred to the level preview screen as a "menu", so I'm not sure whether "showing the requirements in a block like that is for the menu" means the main menu (either via the F4 "display all talismans" function, or moving this to the F2 level list), or the level preview screen.

So, to state things clearly:

* The main menu / F4 / F2 is not enough on its own because often I am playing through a pack in order and want to progress from one level to the next without exiting the flow of play to check this menu.
* The level preview screen is not good enough because it can't cope with complex talisman requirements or multiple talismans per level. In fact, I'd prefer it if we didn't display talisman requirements here at all, because that forces a clumsy layout on the majority of levels that don't have a talisman.
* I would prefer a popup window over talisman mode for learning the requirements while in-game, because I don't like the idea of having to check twelve different places to see if a requirement is displayed. I am pretty sure that if both a popup window and talisman mode were available, I would never use talisman mode.

[namida]

I'm a little unsure what you're saying here, since in the "New menu design" topic you referred to the level preview screen as a "menu", so I'm not sure whether "showing the requirements in a block like that is for the menu" means the main menu (either via the F4 "display all talismans" function, or moving this to the F2 level list), or the level preview screen.

So, to state things clearly:

* The main menu / F4 / F2 is not enough on its own because often I am playing through a pack in order and want to progress from one level to the next without exiting the flow of play to check this menu.
* The level preview screen is not good enough because it can't cope with complex talisman requirements or multiple talismans per level. In fact, I'd prefer it if we didn't display talisman requirements here at all, because that forces a clumsy layout on the majority of levels that don't have a talisman.
* I would prefer a popup window over talisman mode for learning the requirements while in-game, because I don't like the idea of having to check twelve different places to see if a requirement is displayed. I am pretty sure that if both a popup window and talisman mode were available, I would never use talisman mode.

Okay so - the question of how it should be displayed in the menu (which yes, I am including the preview / postview screens in this - basically, by "menu", I mean everything except while actually playing a level) is a valid one; but this should be discussed in the menu revamp topics. This topic is more about how, if at all, they should be displayed in-game.

Let's suppose a nice way to display talismans on the preview screen is found - perhaps for example, small icons to show that talismans exist, which can be clicked on (or perhaps just mouseovered) to show their actual requirements. Even with this, would you feel an in-game display other than something like the above talisman mode is necessary? If yes - then absolutely, we should look at having such a feature. If no, then let's assume for now that the preview screen will have a nice way of displaying talismans in any new design, and come back to this only if that doesn't turn out to be the case.

[Proxima]

I see what you mean. In that case, I would say that my normal workflow would be to check the talisman requirements from the preview screen before beginning play, and I would usually be able to remember them; so having a convenient way to check the requirements while in-game wouldn't be necessary -- but it would still be preferable, since it would be nice to know the option is there in case I do forget and need to check the requirements (and in the case of complex requirements or multiple talismans, it's not at all far-fetched that I would).

[WillLem]

I definitely like the idea of a cycling talisman button on the panel, and the idea of an in-game talisman mode, but how are the requirements to be displayed in this mode?

When this mode is active, any skill for which remaining usage is limited will display the skill count in one of two different colors - one color would represent "you can only use this many of this skill due to a limit on this individual skill", the other would be "you can only use this many of this skill due to a total limit".

This is the bit I don't really understand. Would there be two sets of numbers above talisman-affected skills? Also...

I don't like the idea of having to check twelve different places to see if a requirement is displayed

What twelve places? How complicated is talisman mode proposed to be?

The level preview screen... can't cope with complex talisman requirements or multiple talismans per level. In fact, I'd prefer it if we didn't display talisman requirements here at all, because that forces a clumsy layout on the majority of levels that don't have a talisman.

+1 for this; anything that removes the need to display talisman info on the preview screen is a good thing. I know the specifics of that are best discussed in the new menu design topic, but I think it is worth mentioning here specifically as a reason to implement some form of in-game display.

[Proxima]

What twelve places? How complicated is talisman mode proposed to be?

A talisman may limit the number of each individual skill (of which there can be up to ten), the total number of skills, and the time limit.

[WillLem]

A talisman may limit the number of each individual skill (of which there can be up to ten), the total number of skills, and the time limit.

It can also increase the save requirement as well, so that's 13 places! That being the case, I definitely think that an in-level popup menu would be good as well as "talisman mode" (which could still do with a proper explanation, tbf...)

[namida]

(which could still do with a proper explanation, tbf...)

What do you mean by "a proper explanation"? Is there something you don't understand in the proposal - if so, what's the question? Or do you mean as in consideration of how to explain it to new players?

[WillLem]

What do you mean by "a proper explanation"? Is there something you don't understand in the proposal - if so, what's the question?

When this mode is active, any skill for which remaining usage is limited will display the skill count in one of two different colors - one color would represent "you can only use this many of this skill due to a limit on this individual skill", the other would be "you can only use this many of this skill due to a total limit".

I don't understand. Do you mean that the skill would display two numbers of different colours...?

When this mode is active, any skill for which remaining usage is limited will display the skill count in one of two different colors - one color would represent "you can only use this many of this skill due to a limit on this individual skill", the other would be "you can only use this many of this skill due to a total limit".

This is the bit I don't really understand. Would there be two sets of numbers above talisman-affected skills?

[namida]

Ah, my bad.

So - this could be open to discussion, but the way I envision it working is that there'd be a single number displayed, and like the current situation, it would tell the player how many times they can use this skill - in this case, it's how many times they can without exceeding the talisman rules.

The difference is that under normal circumstances, there's only one reason for the skill's limit: The player only has that many of the skill in the skillset. If you look at the panel under normal circumstances and see a "5" above Bashers, it's because the skillset only has 5 bashers (or it had more but you've used them).

However, talisman mode would mean there could be three possible reasons why the skill is limited:
a) As before, due to the amount of skills in the skillset.
b) Due to a "Use no more than X of this skill" requirement in the talisman.
c) Due to a "Use no more than X total skills" requirement in the talisman.

Thus, my idea is to only display one number - whichever one is the most restrictive - and recolor the number to indicate the reason for it. For example, perhaps we keep the current white when the reason is "this is how many of the skill you have in the skillset", while changing it to yellow if it's "there's a limit on this specific skill", or to red if it's "there's a total skill limit". (Of course, other colors could be used instead; this is more about the general idea than the exact colors.)

To give an in-game example, let's suppose a level gives you 10 builders, 10 bashers and 20 miners. It has a talisman for "solve with no more than 5 builders, and no more than 15 total skills". At the start of gameplay, talisman mode would display (keeping the example colors from above):
- A yellow 5 for builders. You can only use 5 builders due to the "no more than 5 builders" requirement, which is the strictest limit on builders.
- A white 10 for bashers. You can only use 10 bashers due to the skillset only giving you 10, which is the strictest limit on bashers.
- A red 15 for miners. You can only use 15 miners due to the "no more than 15 total skills" requirement, which is the strictest limit on miners.

This would of course change during play. Let's suppose the player used 6 miners. At this point, nothing changes for builders, but for bashers, the "9 more total skills" is now stricter than the "10 bashers in the skillset", so it would change to a red 9; miners are still most strictly limited by the total skill allowance, and would also display a red 9. Let's suppose the player used another 6 miners (12 total miners). At this point, the "3 more total skills" (out of 15 total) is the strictest limit on all three skills, so all three would display as a red 3.

[WillLem]

Thus, my idea is to only display one number - whichever one is the most restrictive - and recolor the number to indicate the reason for it

Ah, cool! I thought that might be what you meant, but I just wanted to make sure.

This is very similar to the original idea I had: basically, the talisman criteria is applied to the level upon pressing the talisman button:

When the player clicks on the talisman, it is highlighted, and the relevant criteria for achieving it are immediately applied to the level

However, I suggested that each talisman should have its own button, whereas your idea of cycling them from one button is obviously much neater.

Proxima initially pointed out some issues with a possible "Talisman Mode" which are worth addressing:

First, there may be more than one talisman of the same colour. Second, changing the level doesn't work for "maximum number of total skills" talismans. Third, restarting the level is intrusive -- especially if the player is just checking the talisman requirements and might have almost finished the level! Finally, it's not clear how to make room for extra panel buttons, and you have to consider both the full and compact skill panels here.

The "cycling button" idea deals with the first and last of these issues, and there's of course no need to restart the level upon applying talisman mode - it could be that if a player has already gone beyond a talisman's requirements, then that particular one would simply be grayed out, or it could be turned red to indicate that it is no longer possible.

The second issue remains, though - how would Talisman Mode deal with "maximum number of total skills"?

if the talisman conditions are accomplished while not being enforced, it should still count. It should also be possible to undo the restriction at any time so you can give up on the talisman and simply go for the regular solution without having to restart the level.

+1 for these comments from Dullstar, as well. I think people generally feel that Talisman Mode should be as un-intrusive and/or un-disruptive to gameflow as possible.

+1. Especially on early ranks, I like to pay attention to talismans, just to make the solutions more interesting... Thus, if we have the hard requirements visible on the panel, the soft level requirements should be visible there, as well!

This quote from Strato pretty much sums up why a Talisman Mode would be particularly good.

Essentially, it removes the need for repeat levels, and gives players the choice of whether they want to go for the "hard" solution, or play the level more casually with the "soft" level requirements.

This opens up possibilities for level designers to make their levels much more accessible to people of all ability levels.

Of course, it could still be that later ranks do away with talismans and simply present harder levels - that way, players can still gain forum credibility and personal satisfaction from having beaten a pack at its hardest.

[namida]

The second issue remains, though - how would Talisman Mode deal with "maximum number of total skills"?

If the talisman conditions are visible from the preview screen (which itself is under discussion as to whether they should be or not), and it is clearly shown there whether or not there's a maximum skill limit, do you think specifically showing the (remaining) limit in game on top of having the per-skill limits as suggested above (which would in turn reveal the maximum total skill allowance once it becomes relevant) is necessary?

[WillLem]

If the talisman conditions are visible from the preview screen... do you think specifically showing the (remaining) limit in game on top of having the per-skill limits as suggested above... is necessary?

No, not at all. If it works in the same way as individual skill limits, i.e. changing colour or not allowing further skill assignments, this would be fine. It would need to be something in-game though, as it's way too easy to forget talisman info from the preview screen.

[namida]

If the talisman conditions are visible from the preview screen... do you think specifically showing the (remaining) limit in game on top of having the per-skill limits as suggested above... is necessary?

No, not at all. If it works in the same way as individual skill limits, i.e. changing colour or not allowing further skill assignments, this would be fine. It would need to be something in-game though, as it's way too easy to forget talisman info from the preview screen.

Let's just make sure I've been clear enough about what I mean here, because reading it again now I'm not sure I did clearly explain what I meant.

I'm referring to my earlier suggestion, re: "show the strictest limit that applies, and use a color to indicate whether it's a skillset limit, a talisman single-skill limit, or a talisman total-skills limit". If we have this, in combination with the preview screen explicitly showing "max skills", do you think this is good enough? Or do you think there should also be a dedicated in-level display for max skills?

There are cases where this would mean the max-total isn't immediately visible. For example, if a talisman restricts the player to 5 builders, 5 bashers, 8 total skills, then until the player has used 3 of one of the skills, there'd be no direct indication of the "8 total skills" (or the remaining portion thereof) - because it would be covered up by other, stricter limits.

Another option is to have a dedicated "maximum skills" field on the panel. In terms of positioning / space, there are several options:
a) It replaces (or displaces, possibly by introducing another top/bottom split panel similar to directional select buttons) one of the existing buttons when talisman mode is activated.
b) There's a permanent placeholder, possibly displayed with the "empty skill slot" graphic, that gets filled in when talisman mode is activated.
c) There's a permanent, non-placeholder space. This could either do nothing when not in talisman mode, or perhaps be used for a future feature that allows limiting max skills even outside of talismans. (Note that such a feature is not promised EVEN IF this display method is decided on in general. And I recall that this idea was suggested in the past and didn't have much support.)
or d) Use the info text area (I think I suggested this earlier). Whenever in talisman mode and no lemming is mouseovered, display the max skill count in the area that displays info about the mouseovered lemming.

These are in order from hardest to easiest to implement. So the further up the list it is, the stronger support I'd need to see to go ahead with it. "Stronger" could be in terms of either numbers or reasoning.

[Armani]

I have a suggestion on how to display talismans ingame.
Show every talisman of the level on top left of the screen with checkboxes.

eg)
V Save at least 58 lemmings.(59/58)
- Complete using no more than 20 total skills.(17/20)
X Complete using no more than 20 total skills.(23/20)

I took a picture from one of the campaign missions of Starcraft2.
I think this is cool way to display what you need to do ingame.

[namida]

Not sure how practical that would be - much like the hotkeys for the skill panel thing, it'd have to match the resolution of what's being drawn underneath it (either that, or be displayed in a popup that fully obscures whatever's underneath it).

[WillLem]

Nice idea Armani, but since Talismans are most often not completed until the level is fully solved, I think that always having them on display could just be a needless distraction.

Maybe the idea could be implemented via a button which shows/hides the talisman criteria in the way that Armani has suggested. A popup would also be sufficient for this purpose though tbf.

[Dullstar]

Ignoring the technical constraints, I like Armani's idea in conjunction with a button to toggle it. It would flow better than a popup as WillLem suggests, and likely whatever technical stuff is required to make it work might also allow implementing the hotkey thing, assuming it would be feasible to fix.

[WillLem]

Maybe the idea could be implemented via a button which shows/hides the talisman criteria in the way that Armani has suggested

I like Armani's idea in conjunction with a button to toggle it. It would flow better than a popup as WillLem suggests

Yes exactly, that's what I meant (see first comment). I mentioned a popup because that would also work (and NeoLemmix employs popups for a range of other features, so it would be arguably less out-of-place).

Definitely more in favour of Armani's idea generally, though, just to be clear.