Poll

Which ones?

Limited-count entrances and exits
11 (44%)
Neutral lemmings
7 (28%)
Piece grouping
2 (8%)
Username & replay matching
1 (4%)
Skill-types-per-level limit increase to 10
4 (16%)

Total Members Voted: 14

Voting closed: May 31, 2019, 03:29:01 am

Author Topic: Which of these features would you like to see first?  (Read 351 times)

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Offline namida

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Which of these features would you like to see first?
« on: May 20, 2019, 07:19:40 pm »
These are all features that I've developed initial code for, player-side. They still all need to be bug-tested more, and may have room for improvements in exactly how they work. How much work remains needed in the editor varies, though all of these (where relevant) have at least a little bit of editor-side code written.

Limited-count entrances and exits - Pretty self-explanatory. This lets you have entrances and exits that only release / permit up to a certain number of lemmings. Fallback code is in place to ensure you don't end up with a level that has a higher lemming count than can be released from the entrances, or a higher save requirement than the exits allow for (it'll reduce the lemming count / save requirement to the highest possible value for the level). Editor-side, code exists to preserve lemming count caps, but not to edit them. It's possible for custom entrances / exits to have custom digits and a "close" animation (pending the acceptance of the new animation system, but that's looking fairly likely now); but the feature is also 100% compatible with existing entrances and exits (regular or locked), simply using the countdown digits as a default and indicating used-up purely by the count being zero.
Neutral lemmings - Neutral lemmings cannot be assigned skills, but in all other ways act like regular lemmings, including that you can rescue them and they count towards the save requirement. Neutral lemmings can either be pre-placed, or spawn from a neutral-lemming-spawning window (which, just like a zombie or permanent-skill window, is just a regular window that's got a "neutral lemmings" flag activated). Full editor-side support for this has been implemented, except for drawing preplaced lemmings in a neutral lemming color (and the editor doesn't do that for any existing color variation, eg. athletes or zombies, either).
Piece grouping - Allows creating composite terrain pieces out of smaller pieces, in custom levels. Those who are familiar with Lix will already know how this works - NeoLemmix's implementation is very similar. Editor has support for creating and using piece groups, but doesn't yet have support for loading and saving them - though I believe adding that support is quite high on Nepster's todo list.
Username & replay matching - Allows entering a username, which will be saved to your replay files. Replays with a different username (or no username) will not modify your level completion statuses or your save / time records. There's no editor-side support needed for this feature.

Please note:
- Shimmier isn't on the poll, because it's more or less confirmed for the next stable version anyway, so no need. (EDIT: To clarify, I mean the next major stable version. IE: 12.5.0 or 13.0.0, as applicable. If we release a V12.4.1 update, it won't contain the Shimmier yet.)
- Expanded skill limit isn't on the poll, because no coding work has been done on this yet. If I code it to a near-complete state in the near future, I'll add it in. It's possible to change your vote on this poll, so don't withhold votes for now "in case expanded skill limit gets added" - you can change your vote later if it does get added before the poll closes.
- This topic is not for discussing in depth how any of these features should work (if you'd like to clarify how they already work that's fine, as it's relevant to this topic; but if you want to discuss changes, let's use a separate one), or proposing other features you'd like to see in the near-future. Use the Bugs / Suggestions board (creating a new topic if none already exists) for that.
- We're under no obligation to implement features in the order this poll determines; it's just for us to get an idea of which features are more desired. We might follow it exactly, we might not.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2019, 08:47:01 pm by namida »
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Offline Minim

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Re: Which of these features would you like to see first?
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2019, 07:34:53 pm »
I pretty much like all of them, but the ones I voted for are the top two. I remember a couple of Lemmings Revolution levels that have a certain lemming limit for entrances, such as Tanks a Lot and Feeling Gravity's Pull. The limit for multiple exits idea should hopefully test the player to see if they can cross two or more separate routes with different groups of lemmings. Looking forward to that challenge.

The Neutral lemmings idea reminds me of the old Steam game called Clones. The capture the clone challenge was quite good fun back then, particularly the one in the demo where it was oversized compared to the rest of them.
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Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: Which of these features would you like to see first?
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2019, 11:24:36 am »
I would have voted for "Jumper" if it had been on the list :D .

But apart from that, limited-count exits were the third major feature announced at the beginning of New Formats, apart from the Shimmier, and already back then I compared this to the limited-number exits in the puzzle game Star Wars: Pit Droids, so I think this will open up huge possibilities for level design! I didn't know that limited-number entrances would be included as well, but I guess that's a nice feature to prevent an exactly even distribution of lemmings across all hatches. I remember levels like "To Those Who Wait", where sometimes you want a single lemming from one hatch (without actually having it pre-placed) and all the rest coming from another one.

Neutral lemmings to me are like ghost lemmings in reverse - harmless like ghosts, but un-assignable like zombies. Or like the disobedience gimmick, but without the possibility to abuse it by assigning a skill to cancel another, or assign a skill twice to force the disobedient lemming to perform it. You can't "waste" skills on neutral lemmings, it seems like the cursor will simply not change when you hover it above them? Like with the "one-skill-per-lemming" gimmick, where you simply can't select a lemming anymore in any way once it has performed a single skill. (Basically, I expect neutral lemmings to act like a "zero-skill-per-lemming" version of that gimmick. :D )

Hence, I still find ghosts more interesting than neutral lemmings, because they can be used in more versatile ways, whereas neutral lemmings are basically just like lemmings from 2-player-levels, where you could snatch your opponent lemmings without being able to command them. But that sounds a lot less interesting to me if there's no opponent actually trying to prevent you from doing that! :D Still, I think there's more potential for puzzle design in this than in the other two features, which seem to have a lot less impact for me and basically just add a little convenience to the playing experience.
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Offline Proxima

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Re: Which of these features would you like to see first?
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2019, 12:05:11 pm »
You can't "waste" skills on neutral lemmings, it seems like the cursor will simply not change when you hover it above them? Like with the "one-skill-per-lemming" gimmick, where you simply can't select a lemming any more in any way once it has performed a single skill. (Basically, I expect neutral lemmings to act like a "zero-skill-per-lemming" version of that gimmick. :D )

That reminds me that at around the same time as the "one skill per lemming" challenge (from which the gimmick originated), we also tried the converse challenge, "only one lemming takes skills". That would be easy to simulate with neutral lemmings -- have a preplaced normal lemming at the hatch location and make all the spawned lemmings neutrals! :thumbsup:

Offline jamesleemorgan

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Re: Which of these features would you like to see first?
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2019, 12:39:11 pm »
Actually, I can dig the Neutral Lemmings idea since it adds a bit more strategy to the levels. Such as "How do I boost my rescue percentage?"

Yeah, I can see that working out. Though you'll have to make slight differences to make them stand out to Player Commanded Lemmings and Zombie Lemmings.
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Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: Which of these features would you like to see first?
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2019, 01:52:18 pm »
@Proxima: Wouldn't that basically describe every single easy pioneer-style level? ;) The biggest challenge about such a level is probably crowd control, if you can't assign any blockers but only have a single pioneer. But as long as the lemmings are already contained by terrain and you can pull a pioneer out by assigning a climber, Neutral vs. Regular Lemmings doesn't make a difference here.

A slight adaptation of that would be the digger pit - if the release rate is low enough, you can make the real lemming a digger, and he digs enough of a shaft in time so that the next lemming from the hatch can't jump out of said pit anymore. Then assign a builder to the real lemming, and because the shaft is completely vertical, the real lemming can now climb out.

A third option that comes to my mind is: Make the pioneer a blocker first, have all Neutral Lemmings turn on that blocker and then go somewhere where they are contained by the terrain. Then release the blocker with a walker (only viable option since no other lemming can free the blocker by removing the terrain under his feet in this case).

All other forms of crowd control I know involve at least two lemmings - like e.g. building and cutting off the staircase behind the lemming, or the opposite, creating a tunnel and sealing it behind the pioneer again. None of this can be done if just the pioneer is supposed to do all the work though, because he'd end up cutting through his own bridge, or stop digging his own tunnel. ;)

Quote from: jamesleemorgan
Actually, I can dig the Neutral Lemmings

Insert joke here about how you can't actually assign diggers to Neutral Lemmings :P ...
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Offline Proxima

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Re: Which of these features would you like to see first?
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2019, 02:09:55 pm »
@Proxima: Wouldn't that basically describe every single easy pioneer-style level? ;)

You're missing the point. Here's the original challenge topic. Of course all the "easy pioneer-style levels" were possible for this challenge (except Tricky 10 because of the two hatches). But so were many others, many of them not trivial at all.

And with the level designer having complete freedom to change the level, I see lots of room for interesting levels using this challenge type. Probably the most interesting are where the crowd are not contained, but the single worker lemming has to build one part of the route, then get to another location fast enough to build another part....

And even in cases where you can build a holding cell for the crowd, don't forget that it may not be trivial to get your single worker lemming back to the cell to release them!

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: Which of these features would you like to see first?
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2019, 02:33:15 pm »
Quote from: Proxima
And even in cases where you can build a holding cell for the crowd, don't forget that it may not be trivial to get your single worker lemming back to the cell to release them!

Ah, yes, you're right - I hadn't thought of that yet! :thumbsup:
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Lemmicks, a pack for NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline namida

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Re: Which of these features would you like to see first?
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2019, 06:46:31 pm »
I would have voted for "Jumper" if it had been on the list :D .

[...]

Neutral lemmings to me are like ghost lemmings in reverse - harmless like ghosts, but un-assignable like zombies. Or like the disobedience gimmick, but without the possibility to abuse it by assigning a skill to cancel another, or assign a skill twice to force the disobedient lemming to perform it. You can't "waste" skills on neutral lemmings, it seems like the cursor will simply not change when you hover it above them? Like with the "one-skill-per-lemming" gimmick, where you simply can't select a lemming anymore in any way once it has performed a single skill. (Basically, I expect neutral lemmings to act like a "zero-skill-per-lemming" version of that gimmick. :D )

Jumper isn't on the list for the same reason the expanded skill count isn't - zero work for it is done yet (aside from renaming the "jumper", in the sense of a lemming stepping up a height of 3px to 6px, has been renamed "ascender" to make room for the skill at a later date). But I believe Nepster's confirmed the Jumper will at least be given a proper trial period sooner or later.

You can mouse-over neutral lemmings the same way you can with zombies. If no regular lemmings are under the cursor, you'll see info on the neutral lemming under the cursor; but the cursor will ignore them if a regular lemming is also under it. You can't assign skills to them in any case. (These details are based on the implementation as it current stands, and may differ in any future experimental or stable release.)
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Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: Which of these features would you like to see first?
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2019, 08:43:35 am »
Quote
You can mouse-over neutral lemmings the same way you can with zombies.

Ah, yes - in the case of zombies, this is needed to assess whether they possess any permanent skills or not.

So I guess this means that while it isn't possible to assign any new skills to Neutral Lemmings, they can indeed come with certain permanent skills pre-assigned to them?

For example, depending on the level structure, it could be a lot harder to contain a crowd of Neutral Lemmings if they're all climbers right out of the hatch. Or a level where you have a neutral disarmer who you need to direct somewhere without actually being able to command him. :thumbsup:

Okay, I gotta admit, slowly I see more and more design potential opening up for this feature...!
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Lemmicks, a pack for NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline namida

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Re: Which of these features would you like to see first?
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2019, 09:43:21 am »
Quote
So I guess this means that while it isn't possible to assign any new skills to Neutral Lemmings, they can indeed come with certain permanent skills pre-assigned to them?

Indeed.
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Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: Which of these features would you like to see first?
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2019, 12:39:49 pm »
Great to know, thanks! ;)
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My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour, my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems, a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems, a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline namida

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Re: Which of these features would you like to see first?
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2019, 06:47:10 pm »
And to add to that - just like pre-placed regular lemmings or zombies, a pre-placed neutral lemming (but obviously not those spawning from windows) can even be a blocker. As with any neutral lemming you can't assign skills to them, but you can still free them by removing what they're standing on (since this doesn't involve assigning them a skill), assuming of course it isn't steel.

As more of a trivia note - the combination Neutral + Zombie is indeed possible too. Because every attribute of a neutral lemming, also applies to zombies, this is no different except visually from a non-neutral zombie - so there's little reason to put this combination in levels (indeed, I would even argue it should be forbidden), but it basically means that if you're playing a level that contains both neutrals and zombies, you can tell which zombies were originally neutrals vs which were originally normal lemmings. EDIT: Although now that I talk about it, I'm having second thoughts on if there's any reason to keep this as possible. Since Neutrals have no attributes that Zombies don't anyway, it makes more sense to not allow the combination - so instead, a neutral lemming that gets infected would be just a zombie (it'd no longer also be neutral).
« Last Edit: May 22, 2019, 06:52:45 pm by namida »
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Offline Proxima

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Re: Which of these features would you like to see first?
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2019, 07:05:55 pm »
Although now that I talk about it, I'm having second thoughts on if there's any reason to keep this as possible. Since Neutrals have no attributes that Zombies don't anyway, it makes more sense to not allow the combination - so instead, a neutral lemming that gets infected would be just a zombie (it'd no longer also be neutral).

That's what I would expect, yes.

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: Which of these features would you like to see first?
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2019, 07:07:05 am »
Yes, definitely keep it possible! ;) The whole point of Neutral Lemmings is having to save them without being able to command them. That includes saving them from zombies. In fact, this may be one of the most difficult tasks! :thumbsup:
Ghost Lemmings - help us test a possible new NeoLemmix skill!
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour, my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems, a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems, a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels