Level Design Contest #17 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)

[IchoTolot]

NeoLemmix Level Pack: https://www.dropbox.com/s/pwyd4iwls7teae3/Contest_17.zip?dl=1

- Put the folder of the level pack in the "levels" folder of your NeoLemmix Player.

Music: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ru1cxaypi470570/Contest_17_Music.zip?dl=1

- The music must be put inside the "music" folder of the NeoLemmix player. If the folder doesn't exists, create it.

Non Standard tilesets, nessesary tileset updates and additional sounds: https://www.dropbox.com/s/4qxoqmyv72hxnad/Contest_17_Tilesets_and_Sounds.zip?dl=1

- Extract the archive in NeoLemmix's main folder. I should have arranged the folders inside in such a way that they automatically add/replace the right things.

Rule 1 Levels

Colorful Arty's "Legend of Fantasy Castle!" (V2)
Crane's "Blood Born" (V13)
IchoTolot's "Shadows Of Ourselves" (V1)
Nessy's "A Quiet Place" (V5)
nin10doaddict's "Dive On In" (V1)
Proxima's "Here Be Dragons" (V1)
SQron188's "Runnin' Through Castles" (V9)

Rule 2 Levels

Crane's "Are you kidding me ?!" (V3)
SQron188's "Less Than Ten Pints" (V5)

Rule 3 Levels

Colorful Arty's "Storming the City at Night" (V4)
IchoTolot's "Catacomb Of Sorrow" (V1)
nin10doaddict's "<3" (V1)
The Tomato Watcher's "Wish Away The Wells" (V1)

You can check the rules details again here: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4171.0

Playing Phase will be closed on 12th of June!
Updates will close on 10th of June!

Note: This topic is for posting your comments, replays, etc for the levels. If you wish to post an update to your level, or enter a late submission, please do so in the Updates Topic instead.

[Colorful Arty]

Took a look at the levels, and I am seriously impressed with how they all look! Well done everyone!

Also, there seems to be an issue with nin10doadict's R1 level. I can't load it because I'm missing the invisible_updraft object, which I removed from the set a long time ago.

[IchoTolot]

Well, it seems like I still had this object in my folder and therefore did not noticed that.

Making sure the level works though is nin10doadict's task and he is free to update the level even with very radical changes to resolve the issue.

[Colorful Arty]

It's easy enough to fix. There's a blue updraft now that you can just paste everywhere the invisible one was

[namida]

Colorful Arty's "Legend of Fantasy Castle!" (click to show/hide)

While this is a very visually impressive level, it's somewhat tedious to actually play. Mostly comes down to it being too large.

Crane's "Blood Born" (click to show/hide)

I suspect I backrouted this one. If not, the time limit serves no purpose except to frustrate (as far as I can tell).

[Crane]

I can't remember if I needed the tight time limit to patch a backroute or not, but I've removed it for now in V2 (yes, it was a backroute, and the way I had to patch it is tacky).

[Proxima]

I wish I hadn't submitted. Didn't expect to be so thoroughly upstaged by someone else using the same tileset.

[SQron188]

I wish I hadn't submitted. Didn't expect to be so thoroughly upstaged by someone else using the same tileset.

Nonsense, if you think your level has an interesting solution, it's good. No need for self-deprecation. I can't solve either of the levels in question anyway.
In terms of appearance, it has a barren, arid feel, like a canyon, or a desert. It's similar to the style of Shadow of the Beast 2 levels, with the floating and suspended pieces of terrain.
Generally speaking I like variety, so I get both this and the other one which is a bit more busy - for me, it immediately invokes associations with levels typical to NeoLemmix (this is also good).

[IchoTolot]

Alright, I've recorded myself today solving and backrouting my way through the pack.

I've attached the replays and my comments will follow through the videos that will start to appear tomorrow on my YouTube channel. Although this time I was very sunken in my solving routine that I had a feeling I commentated more about my thought processes rather than about the levels.

[IchoTolot]

Levels resolved. I have a feeling Crane's R2 is intended.

[Crane]

It seems I didn't make the arrows low enough in "Blood Born" - updated!

Yep, "Are you kidding me?!" is intended... at least the solution is designed to make people say that!

[IchoTolot]

This still seems like a backroute for "Blood Born"

[Crane]

I would like to withdraw Blood Born until further notice. The level is completely broken and I cannot find a solution to it. It will require a complete overhaul. I'm sorry.

[IchoTolot]

I would like to withdraw Blood Born until further notice. The level is completely broken and I cannot find a solution to it. It will require a complete overhaul. I'm sorry.

Affirmative, I removed the level from the pack. Feel free to resumit though.

[IchoTolot]

Resolved Nessy's level.

[IchoTolot]

Blood born has been readded and I attached my solution.

[IchoTolot]

Re-backrouted SQron's levels.

[IchoTolot]

Resolved the updated level.

It seems like the series "Ruining your castle" for SQron continues.

[Flopsy]

I've solved both of Arty's levels and nintendoadict's level and I'm done for this contest now.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Fantasy Castle (Arty) - I really enjoyed this level and the MP7 music was especially nostalgic for me. This was very hard though, I had a load of failed attempts at this and it only came together once I stopped trying to make the top right hatch go to the left and made them dig straight down instead. Really had to stretch the builders to the limit in this level, I did not like how the gap down bottom to the right of the vines was just too wide for 2 builders, it was a bit annoying but I didn't let it ruin the enjoyment of this level.

Storming the City (Arty) - This was not as hard as Fantasy Castle surprisingly but I guess the tricks I used on this were a bit advanced. This was a very well made level but Fantasy Castle was better. Still a great level.

Heart (nintendoadict) - Backroute, easy to fix though. Another complaint about this level is why are the water areas touching the corner of the terrain at the top, it means a climber can't even get over the top.

EDIT: I still cannot load the R1 level by nintendoadict

[Proxima]

After some thought, I've decided that mobius's solution to "There Be Dragons" is acceptable, so I won't be updating the level. His solution is still tricky to find and requires a linchpin, even if it wasn't the intended linchpin; and I want GemLems to be an easier pack, so multiple solutions should be acceptable in most levels. (It will probably be a rank 3 level.)

IchoTolot's solution is the intended route.

[namida]

Re-backrouted Blood Born.

My replay for Arty's R1 level also seems to no longer work, it fails about half way through. I'm not redoing that one though, especially as it's clear the general approach should still work.

[IchoTolot]

Re-solved the 2 updated levels.

[IchoTolot]

Resolved the updated R1 levels. Still need to take a look at SQron's updated R2 though.

Nessy's level finally seems intended to me.

[Nessy]

And that my friend... is intended

[IchoTolot]

Resolved SQron's R2 and Crane's R1 again.

[SQron188]

Resolved the updated R1 levels.

Okay, okay. An easy enough fix, though admittedly getting this to the intended solution could take a while. Baby steps.

Resolved SQron's R2

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

YES! This is very close to the originally intended solution, except with an improvement! I'll remove 1 Lemming and 1 Stoner skill, make it the new intended solution and the V5 of Less Than Ten Pints (I'll submit it soon) shall be the final one for now!
This is the second time a player helps to improve an intended solution this way and it's a great feeling! Yeah! EDIT: Especially since I was worrying that I might not be able to enforce the solution. /EDIT Oh, and congrats, Icho!
EDIT: But wait. The Floater doesn't get used? Hmm. He was supposed to be the trailblazer, making the solution slightly easier. And the difference between using a Floater and a non-Floater as a trailblazer seems to yield only ~3 pixels in terms of the landing spot on the final terrain piece. I don't think I could enforce Floater use but it has to remain there as per requirement of Rule 2. And it is part of the intended solution. /EDIT

[IchoTolot]

I have a feeling that this is a bigger step in the right direction.

[SQron188]

I have a feeling that this is a bigger step in the right direction.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

It is indeed!
In fact, just by the way, I should note how you came across the first trick in the level (closest to the entrances) correctly EDIT: in version 2 or so. /EDIT Very good!
Anyway, update in about a minute from right now. See you there!

[Crane]

My solution to "Runnin' Through Castles" - probably a backroute as I have a lot of tools left over.

[IchoTolot]

Solved the 2 updated levels.

[Crane]

Still not quite intended, but it's getting closer and less drastic.  This was relatively easy to fix though... I just had to increase the number of lemmings.  I am going to try something though...

[Crane]

I think I got the intended solution to "Runnin' Through Castles" - some parts were painfully precise though

[SQron188]

I think I got the intended solution to "Runnin' Through Castles" - some parts were painfully precise though

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Yeah, it's precise but I guess this is what this level is... Anyway, good work! You got the intended solution! Thanks for playing (and putting up with the precision of) this level!

[Crane]

Thank you very much!

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

At the point where you use the Stacker, can I recommend an small extra piece of sloped terrain in the ceiling so the Disarmer is less likely to walk the wrong way to its death when the Digger breaches the roof? Apart from this, I see this as a good puzzle solving level where you have to work out where you can use your initial tools.

[IchoTolot]

I resolved the 2 levels. I agree with Crane's comment and advice Crane himself to not trust us so far as to remove certain steel walls.

[Crane]

Yeah, I should have known better!  Even if I make it impossible for the basher to make it all the way to the exit, you can still use the bomber where the steel plate once was in order to make it passable.  I guess it has to return.

[SQron188]

I resolved the 2 levels.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Excellent! You got the intended solution as well! Congrats!

Thank you very much!

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

At the point where you use the Stacker, can I recommend an small extra piece of sloped terrain in the ceiling so the Disarmer is less likely to walk the wrong way to its death when the Digger breaches the roof? Apart from this, I see this as a good puzzle solving level where you have to work out where you can use your initial tools.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Yeah, so I'll be adding that thingie and that oughta do it for now. Thanks for playing again and thanks for complimenting the level!

[IchoTolot]

Resolved Blood Born.

[Crane]

I resolved the 2 levels.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Excellent! You got the intended solution as well! Congrats!

Thank you very much!

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

At the point where you use the Stacker, can I recommend an small extra piece of sloped terrain in the ceiling so the Disarmer is less likely to walk the wrong way to its death when the Digger breaches the roof? Apart from this, I see this as a good puzzle solving level where you have to work out where you can use your initial tools.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Yeah, so I'll be adding that thingie and that oughta do it for now. Thanks for playing again and thanks for complimenting the level!

I would say that that piece is a bit too obvious and awkward due to how it juts out downwads.  I would have gone for a wooden piece that is flush with the original protrusion.  I'm a bit of a stickler for aesthetics.

And I don't know if it's intentional or not, but the rightmost spike traps in the bottom right corner don't get triggered by lemmings walking past them.

[SQron188]

I would say that that piece is a bit too obvious and awkward due to how it juts out downwads.  I would have gone for a wooden piece that is flush with the original protrusion.  I'm a bit of a stickler for aesthetics.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I thought it was supposed to look obvious but alright, I've changed it. It should still make the Lemming walk to the left.

And I don't know if it's intentional or not, but the rightmost spike traps in the bottom right corner don't get triggered by lemmings walking past them.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Indeed. They don't get triggered by lemmings walking past them...

[IchoTolot]

Resolved Blood Born again.

[Crane]

That is absolutely NOT intended, but I have no clear idea with how to fix that in a clean way.

[IchoTolot]

Sadly the backroute is still there.

[Nessy]

Finally started the contest levels

But I have only solved 6 levels and have 2 attempt replays so far though

Colorful Arty (click to show/hide)

Legend of Fantasy Castle! - Very beautiful level! It seems that this level is open-ended but hopefully my solution is interesting enough

Storming the City at Night - This one was also amazing. This one felt open-ended but the skillset was a lot more restrictive than I thought at first. Loved the use of the rain object and the music in this level as well.

nin10doadict (click to show/hide)

Dive On In - I had to re-add the water updraft object on my side to make the level work because I got an error. Also a nice level that uses that updraft. I may have done something unintended as I had some skills left over though, but I think I got the main idea. Nice use of the Wave Man track here as well.

<3 - Cute level. I think I may have backrouted it but I still like the look of the level with the tileset you used.

IchoTolot (click to show/hide)

Shadows of Ourselves - I made a lot of serious attempts on this level but no luck yet. I have an attempt replay that fails by only one skill. Regardless, very nice level and nice use of the tileset.

Catacomb of Sorrow - I haven't attempted this one yet. Will soon!

Proxima (click to show/hide)

Here Be Dragons - Very nice level here. It was a fun puzzle to solve trying to figure out how to get through the tricky terrain with the limited skillset. Nice.

SQron (click to show/hide)

Running Through Castles - Beautiful level! I haven't been able to make any good progress on it yet but I have a feeling it's going to take me a while. Heh :S Very nice regardless and love the music.

Less Than Ten Pints - Another interesting looking level. Despite the low save requirement I can't figure this one out yet. Also love the music in this one.

Crane (click to show/hide)

Blood Born - Seems that the backroute-proofing worked because I am still not sure how to solve this one yet.

Are you kidding me? - This one as well although I did manage to get an attempt replay to show off the main idea I'm going for. Still a nice level and love the title.

The Tomato Watcher (click to show/hide)

Wish Away The Wells - Nice level. I like the way the well terrain was used. Also the skillset was not super punishing but still had to be used very wisely. Good work.

[Nessy]

@SQron your Rule 1 level is now solved I managed to finish the solution Arty started on stream today. I consider this solution a joint operation... heh

[Nessy]

@Crane I have another attempt replay for "Are You Kidding Me?!" that saves 95 Lemmings instead of 93.

Still clueless though

[IchoTolot]

Resolved Arty's R3 level.

[Crane]

When you see or work out the intended solution of "Are you kidding me?!", you'll be screaming "are you kidding me?!"

[IchoTolot]

As the update deadline is closing in, I've uploaded a video with my up-to-date solutions to all of the levels and a 2nd one which shows the intended solutions to my own levels.

Up-to-date solutions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzW65Fc5nrk

Solutions to my own levels: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DydsDepa0Is

[IchoTolot]

Will start the voting phase soon after the level images are uploaded.        I guess ~ at the weekend I will post the topic.