Cull Disarmers, Triggered Decorations and Radiation/Slowfreeze?

[Nepster]

Lemmings-like games have the amazing feature that with a relatively small set of features, one can create a plethora of presents levels. But some ideas sound like very cool and useful additions at one time, but after they are added it turns out that they are far less useful than expected. Unfortunately we have collected a few of those over the last years:

1) Disarmers
I have actually quite a hard time naming even one puzzle level, where a disarmer could not have been easily replaced by other skills or terrain changes. There have been several levels in the recent packs Paralems (by Strato Incendus) and Casualemmings (by nin10doadict) that give you disarmers, but in almost all cases I didn't use the disarmer at all.

2) Triggered animation objects for decorations
Although they have been present for quite a while now, almost no graphic style contains them. Most prefer movable background objects instead. Moreover triggered decorations contradict player expectations: If a lemming causes some part of the level to animate, then this is doing something to the lemming.

3) Radiation objects
These are probably the most useful among the features discussed here and there are levels out there which use them in a very creative way, e.g. nin10doadict's "Thou dost ask too much!" (Hyper 4 of Casualemmings) or namida's "A Universal Production" (Twisted 14 of LemPlus IV). Still such levels are comperatively rare, while radiation objects come with other problems:
- Using timed bombers, they clash with the NeoLemmix philosophy to use instant bombers. Actually the timed bombers are pretty hard to place precisely, which adds executional difficulties which we want to avoid.
- They have an extremely diverse appearance, so players may not readily recognize them as radiation objects. Or they might confuse them with slowfreeze objects...

4) Slowfreeze objects
They have the same disadvantages than radiation objects, and seem to even less useful. The only really nice level making use of them (that I remember) is nin10doadict's "Do you feel a draft?" (Twitchy 11 of Casualemmings). But this level would work almost equally well with a radiation object instead.

All of the four features add to the complexity of the game, especially as they don't teach a new player immediately what they do: Do disarmers work on teleporters or continuous traps as well? For slowfreeze and radiation objects, the player has to wait 9 seconds until seeing a result and no way of knowing in advance whether it would be stoning or exploding. As we moved to instand bombers, they might not even recognize the number above the lemmings' heads as a countdown, if they haven't played the original game before.

For all these reasons I think that NeoLemmix would be better off without these four features. Unfortunately we already had them for quite some time and there are several levels out there using them and I don't want to incur the wrath of a lot of level designers when I suddenly decide for myself to remove all of them from NeoLemmix.
So I propose to do the following:
- Completely remove triggered animation objects and remove support for them. Currently existing objects would be automatically converted to (movable) background objects.
- Completely remove the slowfreeze objects from the game. Currently existing slowfreeze objects would just disappear. Such levels would certainly need some modification from the designer in order to be kept.
- Keep support for disarmers and radiation objects in the NeoLemmix player, but mark them as deprecated. In other words no new level should use them and you couldn't add them in the editor.

[Proxima]

I agree that NeoLemmix has too many features / skills / objects for my tastes, and it makes a lot of sense to cull the least useful and most annoying ones. But the four listed above are very different from each other. The disarmer may not be very useful, but it does little harm just by existing (it makes the number of skills a prime, 17, and the player could forget which traps are already disarmed, or parse a level wrongly by not realising a disarmer is available). Triggered animations, as you say, are misleading. Radiation and slowfreeze objects are very annoying because they nearly always come with execution difficulty of getting the lemming to explode in exactly the right place. So I'd be happy to see these go, but the disarmer should be kept if there's enough existing content that uses it. It would be useful to know, for example, which of namida's packs first introduced these features and how many levels they are in, in that first pack.

- Keep support for disarmers and radiation objects in the NeoLemmix player, but mark them as deprecated. In other words no new level should use them and you couldn't add them in the editor.

The trouble with this way out is that new players come along, play namida's packs, get introduced to this feature as a regular part of the game, and then wonder why they can't use it in the editor. It's really much better to take a good, hard look at exactly how much the feature is contributing, and then make a hard decision one way or another.

[nin10doadict]

I'm in agreement about the triggered decorations. While they could potentially be neat, they are misleading and don't really add anything to the gameplay.
Radiation and slowfreeze levels are admittedly difficult to make without just being obnoxious. Still, I think I've helped to prove that it can be done in Casualemmings. I'm not so sure I'd like to see them just go away.
The disarmer is kind of in the same boat. There are often other ways to get around traps, but that would require giving out more skills to circumvent them, skills that could be used elsewhere to break something. Making a level where the disarmer stands out is a matter of managing the disarmer's location compared to the rest of the lemmings. I think that 'Fixed Ascent' in namida's Introduction Pack does this well.

[mobius]

note: your link to Casuallemmings doesn't work

I'm probably not a very good judge on any of these things because I haven't been making many levels at all lately but anyways;

1) While I'm sad to see it suggested I must agree; I've not seen it used in an extraordinary way and I've not used it much myself. But I haven't played much of namida's or anyone's latest packs and have in general not been in a level making mood.

2) I didn't even know about this. It sounds bad.

3) I actually really don't care about either the radiation or slow freeze. I've not been even remotely inclined to use these. I don't know why they turn me off but I just never felt interested in them in the slightest.

If anything I'd support keeping disarmers but I really wouldn't be super sad if they were removed.

[IchoTolot]

I must say, I really like the disarmer. I've made some nice levels with it, most of them aren't even released yet.
We are also way past the point of removal for them in my opinion. So many packs and levels make use of them now by many different people (Namida, Flopsy, GigaLem, nin10doaddict, Strato, my unreleased stuff..........). Just because it isn't the most innovative skill doesn't really justify the removal anymore at this point.

Point 2 can go no question.

I am not a fan of 3 or 4, never used them, but I would understand that the people who like using them get their will here, as my argument I made for the disarmers can be made here as well, even if those objects are way less frequent than disarmers.

[IchoTolot]

Another disarmer advantage over the replacement with other skills:

The disarmer skill can travel on a specific lemming over the map. Another skill like a builder can be used by every lem who encounters the trap, not the disarmer!
If you have 1 disarmer and need to overcome 2 traps, the disarmer lemming needs to get to both traps and remove the obstacle. Not just every lemming, the disarmer lemming. Here the skill gets much more interesting. Also with pre-assigned skills and basic level design you can precisely define the traveling disarmer lem.
Also it replaces a bunch of other skills if multiple traps need to be disarmed.
That usage might be a bit rarer, but I still think most people don't use the skill to it's full potential yet as they only see the simple disarming function


In comparison to other skills it's also extremely fast and doesn't introduces new backroutes easily. It also can be a good delaying skill.

[GigaLem]

Triggered decorations I say so but for everything else, I'd say keep
My solution for making Radiation/Slowfreeze easier to use is to have a sketch that shows how long it takes for the timer to count down (for walker,Faller, Floater and Glider) so I could think of better Ideas for it
and Disarmer I feel could have a better use or an additional use
-if a zombie were a disarmer, It'll fix a dead trap
-have a locked/Dead option for traps and exits
-locked exits without switch(es) would need a disarmer to open them
-and dead traps would be auto-disarmed upon starting the level (Redundacy I know but hear me out) you can set it up in such a way that Zombie puzzles may be wider in their horizon

I hope you can consider these because, I'd still want to make puzzles with them and I don't want to heavily rework graphic sets

Edit:I'd think it'd be better to rework theses instead of getting rid of them yet, like have extra options for each of them I'll already thought of another feature for the Radiation or slowfreeze

[mobius]

Another disarmer advantage over the replacement with other skills:

The disarmer skill can travel on a specific lemming over the map. Another skill like a builder can be used by every lem who encounters the trap, not the disarmer!
If you have 1 disarmer and need to overcome 2 traps, the disarmer lemming needs to get to both traps and remove the obstacle. Not just every lemming, the disarmer lemming. Here the skill gets much more interesting. Also with pre-assigned skills and basic level design you can precisely define the traveling disarmer lem.
Also it replaces a bunch of other skills if multiple traps need to be disarmed.
That usage might be a bit rarer, but I still think most people don't use the skill to it's full potential yet as they only see the simple disarming function


In comparison to other skills it's also extremely fast and doesn't introduces new backroutes easily. It also can be a good delaying skill.

I agree with this. I feel like the skill has potential even though it is underused atm.

[Ryemanni]

I'm going to add my opinions to the mix:

1. Even though disarmers might be rarely used, I don't think it should be removed. One thing I'd like to see though is for the animation to be changed. I never really liked it that the animation is the same as digger's. I can even make some proposition animations for it.
2. I'm fine if triggered animations go. They are jsut confusing.
3. and 4. I've never used Radiation or slowfreeze and I have never seen levels which use them super cleverly.

[Nepster]

To give you some more information how much impact culling these features has, I have compiled a bit of actual usage data.

1) Disarmers
IchoTolot sent me one of his unreleased levels using a disarmer, but again with slight terrain changes, the disarmer could be replaced with other skills (though IchoTolot tells me, my solution is still a backrotue).
Similarly for the Introduction level "'Fixed Ascent": One could easily create a very similar level with a climber who has to dig down pillars or gliders that spend time bridging gaps, or...

I agree with this. I feel like the skill has potential even though it is underused atm.

In comparison to other skills it's also extremely fast and doesn't introduces new backroutes easily. It also can be a good delaying skill.

Well, if it has potential, then I haven't really seen it yet. It's also true, that it has some nice features, but again they doesn't really seem to be useful regarding creating new puzzles.

-if a zombie were a disarmer, It'll fix a dead trap
-have a locked/Dead option for traps and exits
-locked exits without switch(es) would need a disarmer to open them
-and dead traps would be auto-disarmed upon starting the level (Redundacy I know but hear me out) you can set it up in such a way that Zombie puzzles may be wider in their horizon

Zombie-disarmers already disarm traps (as far as I know), but this, too, turned out to be barely useful. All other ideas add new types of objects with new complexity. These new types all feel of questionable usefulness to me, so I would rather spend some time implementing other more wanted new features.

I went through three packs to list all of their disarmer levels:

namida's 'LemPlus IV' (80 levels) (click to show/hide)

Candy Mountain (Bumpy 11): Same idea would work with building over the traps.
Overclocked Lemmings (Insane 19): Without the disarmer and the traps, the level would remain largely the same. Just some timing issues would become far easier.

nin10demo's 'Casualemmings' (75 levels) (click to show/hide)

Squishy and Splodey (Clam 9): Introductory level to disarmers. Not really anything special.
Sewer rodents (Calm 22): It's an 20-of-everything level that has a lot of different solutions, even without disarmers. Actually one could make a case that it becomes more interesting without disarmers...
Freeze frame (Perky 4): The main idea here doesn't need disarmers at all.
YumYums (Twitchy 6): Currently possible without disarmers. As this is a classical "contain crowd while one worker lemming creates the path" removing the disarmer would make the leel even more interesting.
To each his own (Twitchy 10): The disarmer created a backroute here. See the replay I will post soon in the level pack's topic.
Operations: Super Rescue (Twitchy 18): Again the level would work equally well without the disarmer, if one removes the traps right next to the exit.

Strato Incendus's 'Paralems' (150 levels) (click to show/hide)

Taming the beast (Harmless 12): Mainly an intro level to disarmers. It's repeat is the actual puzzle level and doesn't give you disarmers.
Twilems (Harmless 16): Here the disarmer adds nothing to the level - just turn the first lemming coming to the only trap into a disarmer.
Praise Kek (Harmless 23): A level with multiple solutions. Replacing the disarmer with another skill doesn't take anything away from the level, in my opinion.
The Phantom Lemace (Harmless 25): One disarmer and one trap.
The Path of Senses (Harmless 29): One disarmer and one trap.
Torture Pit (Disturbing 5): Lots of traps for the disarmer to work on. But the level would basically play the same if one would give the worker-lemming other stuff to do.
Have you seen my screwdriver? (Disturbing 10): This is (supposed to be) a level about getting the disarmer pick-up skill. While it needs in its current form the disarmer, one could replace it with a climber if one changes the terrain a bit.
All lemmings must die (Disturbing 29): 10 disarmers for just one poor dragon is overkill...
Throw me a lifeline (Disgusting 15): One disarmer and one trap.
Mary had a little lem (Disgusting 17): A multiple solution level, where giving a disarmer makes sense. Still it's only there for convenience.
In memory of Steve Irwin (Disgusting 18): This has a disarmer pick-up skill, but so far away that it is simpler to solve the level without it in my opinion.
Ready for takeoff (Abhorrent 10): This gives a disarmer pick-up skill, but I don't see any way to even get to the traps...
Luring lemming into mouse trap (Abhorrent 12): Apart from a backroute, that doesn't touch the disamer pick-up skill, this would work equally well if one replaces the traps by water.
Attack of the Clones (Demented 12): Depending on the solution used, the one disarmer and the two traps might pose a problem. But the level works equally well without the disarmer.
Halt the execution (Demented 18): If one wouldn't have the disarmer skills, one could just use two builders to bridge the trap. Nothing more would change.
Parkour of Pain (Demented 23): Having only one lemming and a disarmer skill, having traps to disarm around seems pretty redundant.
Six heroes, one destiny (Demented 25): While having a disarmer, it's not really of much use.
It's FEEDING Time (Demented 29): This has a disarmer pick-up skill, but so far away that it is simpler to solve the level without it in my opinion.

Summary: 26 of 305 levels use the disarmer skill. But of those only one or two are better off with the disarmer. Most work equally well with just the other skills.

3) Radiation objects
Again I list the usage in the three level packs:

namida's 'LemPlus IV' (80 levels) (click to show/hide)

Cosmic Ray Zone (Bumpy 2): Intro level. More annoying than interesting, in my opinion.
Lem Youe Lem Could Small Like (Bumpy 17): Slight terrain and skill changes would enforce the same solution, even without the radiation object.
A Universal Production (Twisted 14): That's a pretty nice level and requires radiation objects.
Ooh, Shiny! (Insane 4): This level, too, relies on radiation objects,.

nin10demo's 'Casualemmings' (75 levels) (click to show/hide)

Tick-Tock lemmings (Perky 1): Introductory level to radiation objects.
Lem in da hood (Perky 7): Just uses them like fire traps.
Two for the price of one (Perky 11): Yes, nice use there.
Thou dost ask too much (Hyper 4): Nice use of the radiation object there, but the level doesn't require it, as far as I can tell: Remove the radiation object and one walker, add a triggered trap at the radiation object's position and give a second miner.

Strato Incendus's 'Paralems' (150 levels) (click to show/hide)

Strato Incendus's 'Paralems' (150 levels)
Lethal dose (Disturbing 18): This is more about placing times bombers correctly, than about radiation objects.
One-man building company (Disgusting 11): A gap would have worked equally well here.
Dispose of failed exemplars (Abhorrent 29): Essentially the same as "Lethal Dose".
Attack of the Clones (Demented 12): Given the save requirement, it's basically used as a trap.
Only over their dead bodies (Demented 13): This makes actually good use of the radiation object.
Detonate on collision (Demented 17): If one replaces the radiation object with a pick-up bomber, the only change would be that the timing is a lot easier.

Summary: 14 of 305 levels use a radiation object. About half of them use it in rather creative ways. But is usefulness in about 2.3% of all levels enough reason to keep it, especially as it introduces timing issues?

4) Slowfreeze objects
Apart from the two levels in Casualemmings, I don't know of any level, that makes good use of them. Paralems has a few levels using them as continuous traps, and I haven't seen it LemPlus IV. That makes the slowfreeze objects even less useful than radiation objects.

[Nepster]

Simon reminded me of some other features to cull:

5) Anti-splat pads
They are extremely similar to updrafts. So I would like to combine these two object types. This could be done in two ways:
a) Turn the current anti-splat pad into an updraft object.
b) Remove the anti-splat pad completely from the new-formats version, but automatically place an updraft object there instead.
Any thoughts?

6) Object setting 'Fake' and 'Invisible'
So far we haven't removed them, because about 5 rather old levels use them and we wanted to preserve their aesthetics. I don't consider this nearly enough reason to keep them. Unless an overwhelming number of replies demands to keep them, they will not be supported in the stable new-formats version of NeoLemmix.
Invisible objects would just become visible, and fake objects would just be removed from the level.

[Simon]

I'm 50:50 on the Disarmer and wouldn't like to advise either way. I agree that it's the weakest skill, but it has culture depending on it. I'll leave this to whoever knows more about the existing culture. In large systems, you can remove any single feature, the remaining features will cover 99 % of the hole. If disarmer stays in the game, add a broken trap anim or at least autogenerate single frame.

Triggered deco, remove. Sounds like most use cases would merely obscure the level or look like traps.

Radiation and slowfreeze, weird. I assume slowfreeze got added merely because stoner is similar to exploder. Can probably remove slowfreeze. That's already helpful since there was confusion between the two. Don't want to judge radiation, let's say I'm 50:50. Timed exploders feel out of place, but radiation seems to enable a few fun tricks.

Anti-splat pads: a) gives excellent backwards-compat, even if not 100 %. With b), I'd be afraid of differently-sized updrafts replacing the smaller pad. Or do you already support resizable updrafts?

Fake and invis: Kill them with fire. <3

-- Simon

[Nepster]

Anti-splat pads: a) gives excellent backwards-compat, even if not 100 %. With b), I'd be afraid of differently-sized updrafts replacing the smaller pad. Or do you already support resizable updrafts?

The new-format supports resizing of updrafts, so that's not an issue, though the height of the trigger area will probably not be exactly the same, but slightly bigger. But that should have only very little impact as long as we preserve the top border.

[IchoTolot]

The "disarmer can be replaced by other skills" argument I would call weak here to be honest. You could replace all climbers with enough builders or even the miner with enough bashers and diggers

Often a single disarmer does the job of 5+ other skills, which all can lead to backroutes. It's just cleaner. Not to mention the terrain changes that would need to happen.

You listed the disarmer levels of 3 packs, but there are many more: Lemmingbytes, LemmingsPlus 5/Omega II, MegSEBytes, SEBLems, Resident GigaLems........

The skill usage begins at the early stages of NL, if a culling case was really viable the last chance would roughly have been around the culling of the gimmiks. I would not only call the skill useful enough to stay in the game, but now also the content ammount using it is too big for a complete cull.



Anti-splat-pats are just more restricted updrafts to me. I would say cull here.

[mobius]

I agree with Icho; that's a weak argument. Just because you could acheive X with other skills or another set up, doesn't necesarily mean X is worthless. For one thing it may just be neat in it's own right even if it does do the same thing as something else. I'm considering this feature in it's own merit;
it's a somewhat simple (to understand) skill that makes sense and comes naturally out of the game. It also doesn't cause major problems and glitches (unlike other skills).

As to working with teleporters and what-not: It seems pretty logical to me to assume (as a new player) that the disarmer should only disable bad devices.

I disagree it's the weakest skill btw; I think Walkers are weakest skill because they're overpowered. But in this case; I just personally ignore them (most of the time), I won't argue to remove them.


5) Similar to my thoughts on radiation; never had much inclination to think about these. Being similar to updrafts is a good point. Now this is a case where I can agree with the argument that it functions the same as another device.... I'm tired of writing and lost my thought so I'm not going to ramble on anymore but that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

6) I'm shocked these are still present after all of the ranting.

btw; I think feedback is important. And even if 'a lot of levels use something' the feedback should be considered. I made levels with invisible exits and since nobody likes them anymore and everybody and their mother complained; so I got rid of them.

[GigaLem]

I have to agree with Icho too.

Removing them would be a major set back to those who have disarmers. Besides I don't like have to build over traps all the time, its monotonous.
Hell Having a good set up with Builders and a Disarmer could prove that the Disarmer ain't worthless.

I rather we reinvent them, then say, get rid off them.

[namida]

One case to consider with antisplat vs updraft: They behave the same if the lemming lands inside the trigger area... Not so much so if the lemming falls through it, possibly including due to the ground under it being removed.

[nin10doadict]

Indeed; in Casualemmings's "Janky devices" (Twitchy 13) you must build the ground beneath the splat pad to make it work, which wouldn't be applicable with an updraft as it breaks the fall before the Lemming hits the ground. There's another level in Paralems that does the same thing ("The opportune moment" - Abhorrent 16). Still, apart from this one type of case, replacing them with updrafts would almost always accomplish the same task...
The disarmer can create puzzles by being misleading as well, such as in "Dangerous Detour" (Lemmings Plus IV - Touchy 9). You may think you have to disarm all the traps but that is a trap in itself.
Slowfreeze is admittedly harder to use than radiation. For these objects the trouble with making a good puzzle out of them is finding a way to build the level so that it's actually a challenge to figure out how to set the lemmings off in the right spot as opposed to just making it more annoying to do so.

[Nepster]

Some decisions:
1) Disarmers will stay.
2) Triggered decoration objects will be removed.
4) Slowfreeze objects will be removed. Sorry to everyone having used them.
6) 'Fake' and 'Invisible' flags will be removed.

I still don't have decided what to do with radiation objects and anti-splat pads:
3) Radiation objects:
There seem to be a lot more people willing to see them go compared to disarmers, and I consider their timing issue that doesn't fit NeoLemmix a far better argument than the non-usability of disarmers. Therefore I am leaning towards removing them, though I feel with all the level designers who used radiation objects in creative ways. If you have further input on this matter, please tell me.

5) Anti-Splat pads:
namida's point is a valid concern. Still both object types look far too similar to me.
Casualemmings's "Janky devices" (Twitchy 13): Wouldn't the level still work if you add a trap or water below the anti-splat pad if it would work like an updraft? Actually you probably only have to prevent climbers getting out of the pit below the pad.
Paralems's "The opportune moment" (Abhorrent 16): I got the feeling that the anti-splat pad basically has already the function of an updraft in this level. One has to build from below to catch the lemmings, and the only difference would be that one doesn't have to place the builders as precisely as now to arrive within the trigger area. So the change would only mean that the execution becomes easier.
Here I am still leaning towards removing their sprites and replacing them with updraft objects. This would keep the appearance of updrafts uniform, hence easy to recognize for the players. Again additional feedback is welcome.


@Raymanni: Now that disarmers stay, I would be very happy to include better animations for them. So if you happen to create them, they would be a welcome addition to the new-formats version.

[Wafflem]

I don't mind if radiation is removed. However, is it possible if we can have all the radiation and slowfreeze objects converted into fire objects?

Another suggestion that should be removed if you haven't done so yet: Manual Steel Areas. I really don't see the need for them anymore especially since we have Autosteel. I think you may have already done that though, not sure.

[Nepster]

I don't mind if radiation is removed. However, is it possible if we can have all the radiation and slowfreeze objects converted into fire objects?

I will certainly not automate this process, i.e. automatically let the NeoLemmix player (or some converter tool) keep the object and just change what it does, without telling the user about it.
If we remove radiation objects, then it's totally possible to reuse some of the graphics and animations for new fire objects. But most likely level designers will have to open their levels in the editor and add the new fire objects manually, if they want to have them there.

On the other hand, if we keep radiation objects, then I would much prefer not to add the slowfreeze sprites as fire objects, just because they look far too similar to radiation objects and I don't want to reintroduce all this confusion.

Another suggestion that should be removed if you haven't done so yet: Manual Steel Areas. I really don't see the need for them anymore especially since we have Autosteel. I think you may have already done that though, not sure.

Very good question. The new-formats editor certainly doesn't support any manual steel areas any more and if you try to load a level having them, they are automatically deleted during the loading process. Whether the new-formats NeoLemmix player does, I don't know at the moment. But if it still does support them, then this is something else that definitely should be removed.

[Strato Incendus]

"The opportune moment" would work with an updraft instead of an anti-splat pad, however "Break my fall" wouldn't, and other levels featuring splat pads, like "Who put that thing there?" or "It's not always what it seems" wouldn't either. So splat pads should definitely stay, and if there are splat pads, I don't see why there shouldn't be an anti-splat pad as a logical counterpart.

I also mentioned in the Paralems thread that, while I appreciate your ambition to solve disarmer levels without using the disarmer, your favourite way of solving levels (as I observed, you really seem to like builders ) doesn't necessarily apply to everyone. I also want to remind you that the version of the pack you played is a first draft still containing lots of backroutes. "Buried knowledge" in its finished state will not be possible to solve without using the zombie disarmers.

In general, I don't get this constant search for things to remove from NeoLemmix. The same concern that has been uttered here for disarmers I have voiced in an earlier discussion: There are existant packs featuring these objects, gimmicks, and skills. New players will come to the game and get to know these older, oftentimes quite famous packs, e.g. by playing the NeoLemmix introductory pack, and they will want to use them, too. One of my levels for example could have made excellent use of the Frenzy gimmick. It's quite unfair to new creators in my view to treat them like "we were able to toy with this, but you don't get to, just because you happened to find our community too late".

Somehow, whenever the discussion of removal comes up, I can't help the feeling that a specific gaming philosophy is being forced upon level creators. I prefer a free market of ideas, and that requires a certain number of options for creators to use.

Therefore, I also speak out in favour of keeping radiation and slowfreeze. Even though I may not use them excessively, they're vital for some of my levels, and a future creator might put them to excellent use. Adding stuff first and then throwing it out again light-handedly actively discourages new creators from trying new ideas, because they never know whether a feature their current levels rely on will still be present in the next version of the game.

This is a primary example for me:

Very good question. The new-formats editor certainly doesn't support any manual steel areas any more and if you try to load a level having them, they are automatically deleted during the loading process. Whether the new-formats NeoLemmix player does, I don't know at the moment. But if it still does support them, then this is something else that definitely should be removed.

Such measures flat-out destroy some existing levels, not only in my pack, but also e.g. the Sonic the Hedgehog levels in one of the packs IchoTolot featured on his channel where normal terrain was made steel.

Converting all radiation and slowfreeze objects to fire automatically is even worse. These objects are not just "traps", they can actually be used to create a path to the exit! If you automatically convert these, not only do you destroy levels, you even rob the creator of any option to intervene in the destruction of their level. That's really the definition of enforcing a philosophy to me.

Being the natural rebel that I am, if the majority decides to cut these features, while that's a fine democratic decision, I will simply continue to use the old editor / player if necessary.

[Ryemanni]

In general, I don't get this constant search for things to remove from NeoLemmix.

That's kinda what I was thinking when I asked why can't a rarely used gimmick stay in the game.

I still don't have any strong feelings about these features though, so I will happy with whatever the outcome is.

[IchoTolot]

Very good question. The new-formats editor certainly doesn't support any manual steel areas any more and if you try to load a level having them, they are automatically deleted during the loading process. Whether the new-formats NeoLemmix player does, I don't know at the moment. But if it still does support them, then this is something else that definitely should be removed.

Such measures flat-out destroy some existing levels, not only in my pack, but also e.g. the Sonic the Hedgehog levels in one of the packs IchoTolot featured on his channel where normal terrain was made steel.

That measure described here does not destroy anything from any existing pack. The Sonic levels you refer to were converted by me from SuperLemmini as I did not want to play them without framestepping in that engine -- so I made a personal quick conversion. While converting I noticed the steel areas were messed up and were not where they are supposed to be. I left them, but made a warning sign. The pack isn't even official and can't be downloaded anywhwere.
Manual steel areas are 100% superfluous as we've got autosteel now for all steel pieces. The areas are a leftover now, ready to be thrown out. The only possible use currently is to make normal terrain pieces to steel pieces just to fool the player and this needs to be 100% avoided. This descision to cull the option was made ~ a year ago.
If every level (and this option is standard for a very very long time now) has autosteel on, no problem will occur as steel pieces will stay steel pieces and terrain will stay terrain.

I am not the type in favor of removing things, too. I hate when everyone gets into a culling frenzy, but there are a few things that are just annoying and superfluous. I enjoy the disarmer here, but I am not a big fan of radiation/sloefreeze, that's why I stay neutral there and just hint at the content breaking side to be considered in the final decision. If one of them will be removed it should be slowfreeze as it's way less common.

[Proxima]

In general, I don't get this constant search for things to remove from NeoLemmix. The same concern that has been uttered here for disarmers I have voiced in an earlier discussion: There are existant packs featuring these objects, gimmicks, and skills. New players will come to the game and get to know these older, oftentimes quite famous packs, e.g. by playing the NeoLemmix introductory pack, and they will want to use them, too. One of my levels for example could have made excellent use of the Frenzy gimmick. It's quite unfair to new creators in my view to treat them like "we were able to toy with this, but you don't get to, just because you happened to find our community too late".

Firstly, it's far from constant; you just happened to join the forum in the middle of the big move from old to new-formats NeoLemmix. This is the best time for us to decide about what features to carry across and which to drop, and it's highly unlikely that anything we keep now will be culled later.

If we do decide to cull any features, then the NL intro pack will of course be updated, probably simply by deleting the levels introducing those features. In general, the NL website does offer downloads of obsolete versions, but those are mainly kept for historical interest and for the convenience of the developers; once new-formats is out, everyone will be encouraged to update their packs to be compatible with it, simply because new players will expect that the latest stable version can play all the packs, and we want to make it as simple as possible for them to get started.

There is one big exception: 1.43 is available in the downloads of obsolete versions, precisely because it's the last version before gimmicks were removed. So that's deliberately been kept available, so that anyone who really wants can make a gimmicks pack. Namida even made a set of compatibility icons so that pack topics can warn in case an obsolete version is required to play them.

Similarly, if you want to make an old-formats pack after new-formats is rolled out, there's nothing stopping you. It's just that a lot of players will want to save on their hard drive space by keeping only the latest version.

[Strato Incendus]

Since Nepster mentioned my level "Only over their dead bodies", it actually makes use of both radiation AND slowfreeze. The second zombie gets stoned to create a terrain above the water from which a platform can be built. In the current version of the level, the terrain next to the exit reaches so far beneath the bombing hole that the level can be solved by only using the radiation part; this will be fixed in the next iteration so that both the radiation and the slowfreeze will have to be used to solve the level.

Also, there's the level "Danger of breakthrough" where you have to navigate a lemming with walkers until it gets stoned by the slowfreeze, to both create a blocker at the right spot and to bridge across a pont of water.

These are only two very simple examples, I do believe there's still a lot of unexplored potential for both of these "skills". So why throw them out before they have been fully explored?

I actually believe one thing that might bar us from exploring these features creatively is getting stuck in one specific level building philosophy. In order to put radiation and slowfreeze to clever use, we probably will have to think out of the box.

"Only over their dead bodies" was one attempt of mine to encourage this line of thinking. I would in fact still consider this level a puzzle: The zombies, radiation and slowfreeze are all visible right from the start, there's no executin difficulty regarding these objects, the zombies will always explode / stone at the same point because the position of skill assignment is always fixed at the point where the radiation / slowfreeze object is placed.

PS: Regarding 1.43: I tried to use an older version recently, and for some reason it didn't open properly. Are there any additional files I need to make the 1.43 editor / player work?

[Nepster]

Thanks for your reply, Strato. First of all: Disarmers (and zombie-disarmers) will stay now, so no need to worry about them.

Proxima makes some very good points. This is the second time in the history of NeoLemmix that level features are actually removed from the game, and not likely to happen again in the next few years.

"The opportune moment" would work with an updraft instead of an anti-splat pad, however "Break my fall" wouldn't, and other levels featuring splat pads, like "Who put that thing there?" or "It's not always what it seems" wouldn't either. So splat pads should definitely stay, and if there are splat pads, I don't see why there shouldn't be an anti-splat pad as a logical counterpart.

Splat pads will certainly stay. That was never a question. And sorry, but I don't see at all, why "Break my fall" wouldn't work with an updraft instead of the anti-splat pad?

Such measures flat-out destroy some existing levels, not only in my pack,...

Every change in the game physics does that. I know it hurts if some of one's levels no longer work. I have some levels that only work in Lemmix and some physics change regarding the digger made them trivial in NeoLemmix. I had some Lix levels that had to go, because Simon removed time limits.
Nevertheless in all cases I managed to replace the levels by even better ones. You can do the same!
Summing up: The question is not "Is there a level it destroys", but "Are there enough good levels to make it worthwhile keeping it with all the additional complexity it adds to the game."

One of my levels for example could have made excellent use of the Frenzy gimmick. It's quite unfair to new creators in my view to treat them like "we were able to toy with this, but you don't get to, just because you happened to find our community too late".

I don't see this is as "we don't let you toy with it", but as: "We already tested these features, found no good use of them, so you don't have to do the same mistake trying to use them". Your Frenzy gimmick is actually a very good example: It annoyed people so much, that a glitch was found to slow down the game despite the gimmick, and other people repeatedly assigned one skill and then restarted the replay before assigning the next skill. So culling the Frenzy gimmick avoided some rants about your levels.

Adding stuff first and then throwing it out again light-handedly actively discourages new creators from trying new ideas, because they never know whether a feature their current levels rely on will still be present in the next version of the game.

That is why we are now much more restrictive with adding new features, so that we don't have to throw them out again. Yes, we made mistakes in the past, but that doesn't mean that we have to keep all the bad stuff we did years ago. And yes, it was also a mistake not to throw out steel areas long ago.

Also, there's the level "Danger of breakthrough" where you have to navigate a lemming with walkers until it gets stoned by the slowfreeze, to both create a blocker at the right spot and to bridge across a pont of water.

Good example of a level which needs frame-precise positioning of timed stoners, which we would like to discourage.

These are only two very simple examples, I do believe there's still a lot of unexplored potential for both of these "skills". So why throw them out before they have been fully explored?

What do you define as "fully explored"? Aren't over two years enough? Should we throw them out after they have been fully explored?

I actually believe one thing that might bar us from exploring these features creatively is getting stuck in one specific level building philosophy.

Ok, here is a sad truth: NeoLemmix doesn't try to please everyone and be able to create every level with every imaginable type of challenge. It simply cannot do that. Instead it focuses on the puzzling aspect with the deliberate choice to get stuck in one specific philosophy.
If someone wants something else from a lemmings clone, then we encourage them to try out Lemmix, (Super)Lemmini or other clones. It's actually a pity that Tsyu isn't more active on SuperLemmini, because it has a somewhat different philosophy and would make a rather good addition to NeoLemmix and Lix.

PS: Regarding 1.43: I tried to use an older version recently, and for some reason it didn't open properly. Are there any additional files I need to make the 1.43 editor / player work?

It should work without any additional files. But it won't be able to open any of the levels or packs created with newer NeoLemmix versions. Having said that, I will have to check whether the current style files can be loaded with V1.43.

[nin10doadict]

If slowfreeze has to go, I won't argue it too much. I was having trouble coming up with good ways to use it anyway; "Do you feel a draft?" was all I could really come up with. Sure, there could be some more good ways to use it, but that's just the thing: If it's that hard to figure out a way to make a good level that features slowfreeze, then does slowfreeze have a right to exist at all?
I really feel that radiation should stick around though. There are more levels that use it and it's easier to figure out ways to make levels with it. Making levels that aren't just obnoxious timing exercises is another thing, but I think it's been proved that that is doable.
I suppose that "Janky devices" could function with water/fire down there below the updraft instead of an anti-splat pad. You get a glider anyway so having the scout avoid the hazard isn't hard. Maybe anti-splat pads should go too? With proper placement of other objects and terrain then updrafts may be able to accomplish everything the anti-splat pad can.
"Fake" and "Invis" are just for artistic purposes and aren't even used that often. I specifically try to avoid them anyway because it just feels troll-ish.

[mobius]

here's some thought out reasoning why I dislike the radiation and slow freeze; Again this is just my personal opinion, I can some people finding them cool, but I don't.

They seem like essentially instant pick-up skills. They make a lemming do a skill at a specific point. (something which the now-removed gimmick "instant pick up skill" did). I was't ever totally against timed bombers, but for some reason I find this incarnation here to be worse than regular old fashioned timed bombers. Since the object sets in one spot the lemming's always going to explode in a predefined spot or distance from it. It seems kind of pointless to me. Wouldn't puzzles be harder if you're forced to determine where to assign the bomber/stoner yourself?
Also I find the naming to be very confusing; radiation and slow freeze doesn't make me think of bombers and stoners. It took me a while to figure these objects out.

But I really don't care if they're removed or not; It wouldn't bother me to have them there; I may never use them, but if other people get good use out of them that's fine.

I don't really have an opinion on the splat pads.

[namida]

It is possible to make a level that uses the radiation / slowfreeze in ways beyond "the lemming will explode at a predefined spot", by interaction with other skills. The obvious example would be with walkers, cloners or blockers, but I can also think of one level in my packs that uses a radiation object with the intent that the lemming will explode inside a digger pit. There's another one where there are insufficient bombers (or potential substitutes) to execute the obvious route, but by taking a detour and using radiation, you can get that extra bomber you need - and making the path back from there also itself makes use of radiation, mostly controlled by walkers with some blockers available for it.

At the same time, I do get how they add execution difficulty which NeoLemmix generally tries to avoid. A shadow of some kind could work for simple cases, but not so much so when dealing with complicated arrangements of walkers and/or cloners.

[Strato Incendus]

I thought actions might speak louder than words. Attached are two levels in defense of slowfreeze - one of them is a fixed version of a level from Paralems. The original was solveable by only using the radiation - this one requires both radiation and slowfreeze.

The second level approaches slowfreeze differently - sometimes, a lemming dying through slowfreeze can be worse than if it were to die a different way. Because the stoner that results from this can become a hindrance. Try this level without bombing the second slowfreeze lemming and you'll see what I mean.

[nin10doadict]

While my solution to the fire and ice level was very different from yours, the point was still made about exploding the second lemming to walk through the slowfreeze. Certainly a very good use of it, and the zombie level was a pretty good way to use it as well.
Still, I think the decision to remove slowfreeze might still go through. It's not my decision to make regardless, and either way the older editor that supports it should still be available in case you come up with any other good ideas for it.

[ccexplore]

All of the four features add to the complexity of the game

I can understand the desire to simplify, but we don't generally get a lot of feedback on what parts of the game new players especially find most confusing, so it's really tough to say how much of a difference removing one or two little features (often the ones that had been least used as there's less controversy) really makes in the overall scheme of things, since you're still left with a lot more features than Lemmings or even Lix.

In the end it feels more like you can get away with removing certain things mostly because most people don't care enough.   Which admittedly may be a good enough reason.

- Using timed bombers, they clash with the NeoLemmix philosophy to use instant bombers. Actually the timed bombers are pretty hard to place precisely, which adds executional difficulties which we want to avoid.

The big difference is that when bombers were not instant, it almost never actually affects the solution, just the execution of it.  With some exceptions you can usually bomb the exact same location whether the bomber were instant or on a delay.  You just adjust when you assign the skill.

Based on what I read about radiation and slowfreeze, the difference is that they are forced on your lemming when they reached the object, so you are more limited in your control over where the final effect actually takes place compared to assigning skills.  While they can end up adding unnecessary precision, I think good uses of those features would try to minimize the precision, and focus on eg. directing the victim lemming to one of several choices of discrete target locations (to apply the eventual effect) be the puzzle.  It might involve assigning additional skills to the victim lemming and/or having other lemmings pave a path beforehand to help direct the victim lemming.  It could possibly be as simple as whether you send a lemming going left or going right to the object.

So in theory, there is some puzzle potential out of radiation and slowfreeze, and at least some people have come up with what sounds like good uses.  I suspect in practice it can be difficult to make good uses of them, and maybe others who've actually played levels featuring them could say how much of a problem precision tends to be with those objects.  If evidence points that way (and usage is already relatively low) then it is reasonable to consider removing the features and perhaps explore other features instead that are easier to make good use of and have less problems with precision/timing for example.

They have an extremely diverse appearance, so players may not readily recognize them as radiation objects. Or they might confuse them with slowfreeze objects...

Reasonable concerns, although there are other solutions to this specific problem that does not involve removing the features altogether.

================

Ultimately I think your decision will end up mostly guided by (as are often the case, for better or worse) finding not too many people caring too much about their removal.  I suppose it is an okay compromise then to leave the old version of game and editor still available for the few who still want to take advantage of the removed features, and see if they are somehow able to actually change people's mind to care and like the features more despite the hurdles.  You could also potentially do a "soft" removal where you start with removing the ability to use it in the level editor and block loading of levels that try to use it, but still keep the code for the game mechanics around for one more stable release or so, and see if people have indeed moved on since then, and then later either actually remove the dead code for good when clearly no one still care anymore, or potentially restore it if surprisingly people have turned around in their thinking.

[Nepster]

Again a very good post, ccexplore .

I can understand the desire to simplify, but we don't generally get a lot of feedback on what parts of the game new players especially find most confusing, so it's really tough to say how much of a difference removing one or two little features (often the ones that had been least used as there's less controversy) really makes in the overall scheme of things, since you're still left with a lot more features than Lemmings or even Lix.

I totally agree, and basically rely on a test-set of size one: myself. Which is admittedly pretty bad, as I learned about many of the features before we got all the help that is currently present in NeoLemmix. And of course my opinions don't need to be the average ones.
That's why I still have the urge to cull (movable) background objects, even though a lot of people like them and they are lot less of a problem for me now.

They have an extremely diverse appearance, so players may not readily recognize them as radiation objects. Or they might confuse them with slowfreeze objects...

Reasonable concerns, although there are other solutions to this specific problem that does not involve removing the features altogether.

Yes, but spriting is a lot harder for me than removing code.
Anway here another argument against keeping slowfreeze objects: After a lemming got through one of these objects and has the timer, one cannot distinguish lemmings that are going to explode from lemmings that going to be stoned. In most levels, this is not really a problem, as there is only one type of objects around, but in levels like Strato's "Only over their dead bodies" it does rise the question: If a lemmings moves first through a radiation object and then through a slowfreeze object, what will he do at the end? When I played the level, I didn't know the answer myself and had to test...

I thought actions might speak louder than words. Attached are two levels in defense of slowfreeze

Still, I think the decision to remove slowfreeze might still go through.

Sorry, but three good levels in over two years are still not nearly enough, even ignoring the fact that your "A level of Ice and Fire" allows for a backroute that ignores the slowfreeze object completely.
Given all the drawbacks of slowfreeze objects, especially if we decide to keep the radiation objects, I stick to my decision to remove slowfreeze objects from the new-formats version.

You could also potentially do a "soft" removal where you start with removing the ability to use it in the level editor and block loading of levels that try to use it, but still keep the code for the game mechanics around for one more stable release or so, and see if people have indeed moved on since then, and then later either actually remove the dead code for good when clearly no one still care anymore, or potentially restore it if surprisingly people have turned around in their thinking.

This is viable option for some lesser used settings that have far smaller impact on the existing levels. And I already do exactly that already in my new-formats editor, which omits supporting several settings that the NeoLemmix player or even the old editor has.
But for something as important and visible as the existance of whole types of objects, I don't think this silent removal is a good strategy.

[Strato Incendus]

Thanks, backroute removed!

You have a point that people haven't found much use for slowfreeze in several years. However, now that you're considering adding new features, they might! If you really get e.g. the jumper to work, imagine what could be done with those and slowfreeze... or with the shimmier...

I think we should at least try these new combinations before forever robbing ourselves of the possibility to test these interactions.

[Nepster]

1) It's not certain when (or even if) jumpers or shimmiers will come. So you basically propose to wait for an indefinite amount of time.
2) We already have thousands of ways to separate a lemming from the crowd, even if a slowfreeze object is placed in the middle. The only really new functions are getting stoners mid-air or at the ceiling. But these can be achieved via regular stoners as well. So I don't see why the jumper-slowfreeze or jumper-shimmier combination is particularly appealing.
3) Fencers were added quite some time after slowfreeze objects. And I didn't notice a particularly huge number of levels using the slowfreeze-fencer combination (is there even one?). So why do you expect things to be different with jumpers or shimmiers?
4) During the conversion to the new-formats, removing slowfreeze objects is relatively easy. If we decide to remove them afterwards, this will become much more difficult. So either now or never.
5) You will also never be able to try the combination of timed bombers and shimmiers. Or the Frenzy gimmick and jumpers. Sometimes we have to live with such things...

[Strato Incendus]

You will also never be able to try the combination of timed bombers and shimmiers. Or the Frenzy gimmick and jumpers. Sometimes we have to live with such things...

Not if there isn't an "active" reason to remove them. If things clash in the code so one has to be picked over the other, fine. But there can only be harm from removing something no-one uses (yet). It doesn't do damage if it's staying, if it's barely used anyway, but the option wouldn't be gone. Like you said: Now or never. This means if slowfreeze is removed now, I know it will never come back ever, because so far nothing that has been removed once has returned again. So I hope you can understand why I'm so insisting.

The difference between "fencer + slowfreeze" and "jumper + slowfreeze" is obviously that a jumper can get into mid-air, something a stoner is often used for. The fencer only needs to be combined with a stoner in the corner-case that two fencers cross each others paths, as we have discussed; apart from that, it wouldn't make sense to destroy terrain and then create new one.

Here's another use of slowfreeze with cloners, teleporters, and floaters. Still not creative enough?

[ccexplore]

It sounds like it's maybe a case where the new-format conversion needs work per different types of objects, so if one can eliminate some types in the new format then there is less work to do.  That seems like the main (if not only) sense in which the removal is "more work" if done afterwards.

Sadly, I don't think the odds are much in your favor when it sounds like it's mostly down to just you being the advocate.  Maybe you can do a pack of slowfreeze levels now to commemorate the feature's passing, when the current version of game is still in active use and not yet superceded widely by the new version.

[Strato Incendus]

Sadly, I don't think the odds are much in your favor when it sounds like it's mostly down to just you being the advocate.  Maybe you can do a pack of slowfreeze levels now to commemorate the feature's passing, when the current version of game is still in active use and not yet superceded widely by the new version.

The pack I'm currently working on, "Pit Lems", does in fact have a lot more radiation and slowfreeze use, but certainly not just to give them some "quota screen time". This is what I mean by "you're discouraging new level creators". And that can't be in anyone's interest, because it just means less material for everyone to play, especially for those who experts here on the forum who have already mastered every available pack, and tend to solve new ones in a couple of hours.

In order for anyone to play a slowfreeze-featuring pack at all, I'd have to rush the creation of it, from which the quality of the levels would obviously suffer, just to have everyone move on a couple of weeks later, rendering the pack completely worthless only shortly after its conception.

And that line of thinking continues for other features. What if one day, the majority of the forum decides to cut zombies again? That will destroy PARALEMS entirely. Are level packs really viewed as such throwaway stuff, considering all the time and effort that goes into coming up with them, testing them, refining and reordering them?

The original Lemmings and Oh No! More Lemmings obviously will always be playable on all engines, because those are classics. With regard to custom made packs however, there are already several that are either completely incompatible with new versions (like Copycat Lems), or have been severely trimmed down, like the NeoLemmix introduction pack that now completely misses the Gimmick rank. Even though I've downloaded the old version (1.43) where it should still be playable, the pack itself has been edited so I can't even take a look at those levels anymore aside from watching Flopsy play them on YouTube .

The thing I don't get is: The more features we remove from NeoLemmix, the closer it becomes to good old Lemmix again. Nepster's pack featuring only the classic 8 skills could be played on Lemmix perfectly, minus the instant bombers and the skill blueprints. But the rewinding features and all the other stuff that makes the execution so convenient these days are still there.

So I sometimes ask myself why the philosophies aren't "swapped": NeoLemmix has all the whacky features, so why isn't that engine the "playground" for whacky level ideas in the first place, and Lemmix the more restricted, conservative, strictly puzzly one?

[Nepster]

Thanks to everyone for their replies and opinions. Here are my final decisions. I am aware that whatever I decide, there will be someone unhappy about it, and most likely noone will agree with all of my decisions (and this includes myself).

1) Disarmers: Stay without any changes.
2) Triggered Animations: Removed from the new-formats version. During the conversion to the new-formats version, such objects will automatically be deleted from the level.
3) Radiation objects: Stay without any changes. With the slowfreeze objects gone, many counter-arguments no longer hold. Their appearance is still too diverse for my taste and new players will have to wait ten seconds until they see what this object does, which I deem problematic. But quite a few people deemed them useful and there have been quite a few nice levels, so they may stay.
4) Slowfreeze objects: Removed from the new-formats version. During the conversion to the new-formats version, such objects will automatically be deleted from the level. They are confusing and require usually far more precision than radiation objects, so that the few nice levels using them don't balance these downsides.
5) Anti-Splat pads: Removed from the new-formats version. During the conversion to the new-formats version, such objects will be automatically be replaced by appropriately sized updrafts, so that only minimal differences in game-physics occur. The current anti-splat pad sprites will no longer exist, because gliders floating along them look extremely weird.
6) Object settings "Fake" and "Invisible": Removed from the new-formats version. During the conversion to the new-formats version, fake objects will automatically be removed from levels, while invisible objects will automatically be turned visible.
7) Steel areas: Removed from the new-formats version. During the conversion to the new-formats version, they will simply be ignored.
8) Level setting "Manual Steel": Removed from the new-formats version, because it requires steel areas. Instead Autosteel will be applied.
9) One-way areas: Removed from the new-formats version, because they have been outdated for a long time already. They are automatically replaced by the usual one-way objects.

Comments to graphic style designers:
1) Please remove all triggered animation objects from both the style folder and the translation table. If you like to re-use some of them as moving background objects, add them as completely new objects.
2) Please remove all slowfreeze objects from both the style folder and the translation table. You may consider re-using the sprites as radiation objects. But if you do so, please add them as completely new objects.
3) If your style uses an anti-splat pad, please don't change anything at the sprite or the translation table entry for the anti-splat pad. Instead inform me about this, and I will do all necessary changes. This seems to be a lot faster than writing 20 lines of explanations what to do.

[Proxima]

This is what I mean by "you're discouraging new level creators". In order for anyone to play such a pack at all, I'd have to rush the creation of it, from which the quality of the levels would obviously suffer, just to have everyone move on a couple of weeks later, rendering the pack completely worthless only shortly after its conception.

Not at all. Regardless of what's decided here [EDIT: Nepster posted with final decisions while I was writing this], the current version will remain available; you just have to put a compatibility warning on your pack. Yes, that will reduce the number of people who play it, but it won't be worthless.

What if one day, the majority of the forum decides to cut zombies again? That will destroy PARALEMS entirely. Are level packs really viewed as such throwaway stuff, considering all the time and effort that goes into coming up with them, testing them, refining and reordering them?

The only time culling zombies was ever considered was when they were a gimmick, and namida started a forum topic that (in essence) said "Gimmicks have gotten out of hand, can we cull them?" The debate concluded that zombies were worth preserving (even then, when there were far fewer zombie levels than exist now) and so they were promoted to a main feature. Culling zombies is simply not on the table after that.

If you look through that debate, and what's been said in this one, it should be clear that we do consider damage to existing content as one of the most important considerations. That doesn't mean every level will be supported for ever; sometimes we agree that a change will benefit the game enough to be worth doing in spite of losing some levels. (For example: Simon culled the interrupted basher step from Lix, changing it so bashers remove all terrain in a single frame, since the precision timing of the interrupted basher is a lot worse in multiplayer, where you don't have the ability to pause or rewind. We lost some levels completely and had to rework others.)

The original Lemmings and Oh No! More Lemmings obviously will always be playable on all engines, because those are classics.

Recent versions of Lix don't support the original graphics sets, so no. Even if you rebuild the original levels so Lix can read them, some levels aren't "playable" in the same way as intended because of other changes (e.g. the lack of time limits spoils Just a Minute). As for NeoLemmix, the Lemmings Redux pack is intended to be the main way to play the original levels from now on; if you really want to play the original levels "authentically" then you should just play the original games.

With regard to custom made packs however, there are already several that are either completely incompatible with new versions (like Copycat Lems)

I believe that's not completely incompatible, it's just that "Cheapo Mode" (80px fall height and other mechanics differences) was removed. Obviously, levels that depend on those differences won't work any more. It would be good to update the pack so it works in new versions, but that requires effort, and the pack doesn't have a dedicated maintainer. I'm pretty sure, though, that someone will get round to doing it at some point. It's certainly not that we've decided the pack shouldn't be supported.

or have been severely trimmed down, like the NeoLemmix introduction pack that now completely misses the Gimmick rank. Even though I've downloaded the old version (1.43) where it should still be playable, the pack itself has been edited so I can't even take a look at those levels any more aside from watching Flopsy play them on YouTube

The intro pack is exceptional because it's meant to introduce new players to the features of NeoLemmix. The levels are not meant as artistic works.

The thing I don't get is: The more features we remove from NeoLemmix, the closer it becomes to good old Lemmix again. [...] So I sometimes ask myself why the philosophies aren't "swapped": NeoLemmix has all the whacky features, so why isn't that engine the "playground" for whacky level ideas in the first place, and Lemmix the more restricted, conservative, strictly puzzly one?

Lemmix's aim is strictly to be an accurate clone of the original game. We mainly use it for the challenge topics, where the aim is to do the best possible towards certain goals (maximum saved, fewest skills, etc) within the constraints of what was possible on the original games. As far as designing new levels goes, Lemmix is dead. No-one wants to go back to the days of glitches.

NeoLemmix has plenty of room for designing wacky levels (too much, in my view; I wish we were culling radiation and a few other object types, but I respect the decision that there's enough content using them to justify keeping the feature). That doesn't mean "anything goes". Most of us have been playing Lemmings-like games and new levels long enough to know what we enjoy and what irritates us; and the general consensus is that levels that don't play fair are more annoying than fun. That doesn't mean you can't make such levels. It just means that if you share content with this community, you have to expect that the feedback you get will be in line with this community's tastes.

[Ryemanni]

9) One-way areas: Removed from the new-formats version, because they have been outdated for a long time already. They are automatically replaced by the usual one-way objects.

Um, what's the difference between an "One-way area" and an "One-way object"? Do you mean that the blocker-like one way fields are removed and are replaced with one way arrows?

[Nepster]

The pack I'm currently working on, "Pit Lems", does in fact have a lot more radiation and slowfreeze use, but certainly not just to give them some "quota screen time". This is what I mean by "you're discouraging new level creators".

Sorry, but if we wait until noone is creating a pack using some feature, before we remove it, no removal will happen at all. Especially as a lot of packs take more than two years.
I feel sorry, that this now hits you, who has only recently joined this community. But delaying the new-formats version just for your sake is not something healthy, given that we are nearing the stage where a stable version could be released.

What if one day, the majority of the forum decides to cut zombies again?

You are comparing apples with eggs here:
- Zombies are far more often used, so the hurdle to remove them is far higher.
- They are considered useful (and are used) by far more people.
- They add something far more unique to NeoLemmix than Slowfreeze or Radiation objects do.
- They don't cause any confusion.
So even though I don't like them myself, I recognize their worth and would now defend them against culling suggestions.
Finally as already mentioned several times already: Everything that stays now for the first new-formats version, will stay for a long, long time.

The thing I don't get is: The more features we remove from NeoLemmix, the closer it becomes to good old Lemmix again.

Up to now, we almost only added features and almost never removed any. And I guess, it will stay like this, if I look at the long list of proposed new features. So even if we remove a few features now, we will never come close to Lemmix again.
Btw. did you notice how many introduction levels nin10doadict needed for Casualemmings? Most of the the first rank and quite a few of the second rank introduce new skills or objects. Are these really not enough features to play around with?

Nepster's pack featuring only the classic 8 skills could be played on Lemmix perfectly, minus the instant bombers and the skill blueprints.

My pack was made deliberately with these restrictions in mind, mainly as a challenge for myself to see whether I could come up with new level ideas within these restrictions. I am currently working on another pack "Return of the Tribes", where I will use a lot more of the new skills and objects. So it simply isn't fair to use NepsterLems as the standard pack that everything should be compared to, especially with regards to usage of new skills and objects.

So I sometimes ask myself why the philosophies aren't "swapped": NeoLemmix has all the whacky features, so why isn't that engine the "playground" for whacky level ideas in the first place, and Lemmix the more restricted, conservative, strictly puzzly one?

If you have a closer look at some of the recent levels, then you will notice that there are a lot of them really whacky ones, that would be horrible to play on Lemmix. All the framestepping and blueprint additions make them suddenly playable! So I would say: NeoLemmix is indeed the playground for all the whacky level ideas.
It just doesn't try to emulate Clones or Lemmini (with all its mods) that strive to add any feature that anyone can think of, regardless of the complexity this adds. Instead it wants to keep the rules relatively simple (as far as this is still possible), so that new players aren't overwhelmed by all the object types (something I fear is happening already now). And for this we rarely have to remove a few features that are no longer worth keeping.

EDIT: Proxima was faster than me. So sorry for any overlapping arguments.

[Nepster]

9) One-way areas: Removed from the new-formats version, because they have been outdated for a long time already. They are automatically replaced by the usual one-way objects.

Um, what's the difference between an "One-way area" and an "One-way object"? Do you mean that the blocker-like one way fields are removed and are replaced with one way arrows?

In the old Lemmix editor, one-way-walls had to be added by placing one-way areas on top of the terrain, very similar to what we now do with the one-way arrow objects. However the internal handling is somewhat different, because the current one-way objects act more like windows and hatches, while the one-way areas act more like old steel areas.
I only removed the support for this old style of adding one-way walls via clicking on "Edit -> Insert Steel" and then manually modifying the area type from steel to one-way-wall. Up to now this was still possible, although probably noone still did it this way.
Summary: All levels where one added one-way-walls via "Insert Object" are totally uneffected. Only some very old levels probably created with the original Lemmix editor are affected and get (automatically) modified. Physics-wise nothings should change for them, too.

[nin10doadict]

Looks like slowfreeze gets the ax then. So it goes.
As for the 'Airborne Aid' level, the replay that was posted seems to be broken so I can't see how it was supposed to work. That said, the level itself was broken too, unfortunately. I was having trouble figuring out how to get everything to time out properly and then realized that you don't need the teleporters or slowfreeze at all... That's a bit of a problem there. The fact that the slowfreeze was annoying enough that I started looking for ways to get around it entirely doesn't bode well for the defense of its continued existence. As mentioned though, it will still exist in the old versions, so it isn't like it's dead forever.
I appreciate the effort to try to defend this feature, but I can't really jump in to defend it myself. I've made a total of one good level featuring it. That doesn't give me enough ammunition to work with. At the very least I don't even have to consider what I could do with it anymore.

[Colorful Arty]

Excuse me, how can you remove objects that are used in several levels like that? In my mind, culling something because "very few people use it" is a terrible reason to cull it, because it will break several levels while giving literally no benefit to anyone else. If few people use it, then why remove it any destroy the levels that do use the feature just because not enough use it? I do not see the rationale for that decision I must say.

[ccexplore]

Excuse me, how can you remove objects that are used in several levels like that? In my mind, culling something because "very few people use it"

Which things specifically are you referring to?  There are too many things being discussed on this thread, no one can tell for sure which removal you are talking about.

But I don't think anything here that was talked about was culled strictly due to lack of usage, or even primarily due to it.  I believe other reasons were given for every removal, even if some people may not fully agree with the reasons given or be convinced of their strengths.  Obviously lack of usage will make the removal less damaging which lowers the barrier in the removal/keep decision.

I also feel like it has been said several times that existing levels using removed features aren't really "destroyed".  You get the fallback option to play it with the obsoleted version.  Obviously this is still a barrier in a number of ways.

[Colorful Arty]

Ah, I forgot about playing on previous versions of NeoLemmix. I guess my main thought was I didn't see any benefit to removing ANY of the features being talked about (including the invisible and fake flags for terrain/objects) and I don't see why people are being so adament about insisting on their removal.

[ccexplore]

Specifically for invisible/fake objects, I think there is already a pretty vocal majority of people not keened on dealing with levels (or just the possibilities thereof) that essentially troll the player with such things.  So I'm sure you'll get at least those people to tell you the removal would be a net benefit for them.

Some of the miscellaneous features like some of the flags stuff (or maybe it's a different feature, but anyway) I think are actually just leftovers from earlier NeoLemmix version that have since already been superceded by better features that can support the same stuff.  The level designer would have to modify their level accordingly but should otherwise not be prevented from exercising the ideas supported by the removed feature (since it can be re-implemented using other features still kept), so I expect those removals to be relatively less contentious.

[Strato Incendus]

As far as designing new levels goes, Lemmix is dead.

That's what I thought. So it's quite funny then that I was pointed towards Lemmix for all my timed bomber needs . Creating levels with timed bombers thereby wouldn't be possible, not to speak of combinations of timed bombers with the new skills. Radiation is the only thing that kinda emulates this in NeoLemmix, and that might go on the chopping block sometime in the future, too. Even though it seems like it survives this round and people promise "what stays now will stay for a long time", what does "long" really mean in this context? The older versions that feature a lot of the stuff I've grown to like are from when, 2016?

Excuse me, how can you remove objects that are used in several levels like that? In my mind, culling something because "very few people use it" is a terrible reason to cull it, because it will break several levels while giving literally no benefit to anyone else. If few people use it, then why remove it any destroy the levels that do use the feature just because not enough use it? I do not see the rationale for that decision I must say.

Thank you !

Indeed, the only reason I see to remove something that barely gets used anyway is being afraid of what people might come up with. If it's just something less favoured by the community, so what? No one forces any member of the community to play the pack. Even troll levels, as much as they can be hated, can just be skipped - I know a lot of people did that with the trolling level from PARALEMS, and I'm fine with that. That doesn't necessitate nor justify taking the option of trolling away completely .

And who says level creators only build for the Lemmings forum? I've given my pack to my brother and a friend of his, who is a lot more casual in his playing of Lemmings, it mainly has nostalgic purposes for him. If I just serve him puzzles all day he will get a knot in his head after a couple of them and quit before finishing the first rank.

Of course, those who do the programming have the power in the end. I just can't get rid of the feeling that you simply don't want to see any remotely execution-based levels pop up. Yes, it will likely be new level designers who use these objects. Yes, their levels will probably look stupid to the seasoned players involved in the programming. What does it hurt you to let the kids have fun? Their packs will probably be too easy for you anyway. You're simply a different target audience.

I also think level packs providing a greater variety of challenges could also help the YouTubers here on the forum in growing their channels. Watching someone think about a puzzle for half an hour isn't really that much fun, is it? You could just play the pack and think about it yourself, then. Watching someone trying to execute an idea that has a little more action to it would make for a much more entertaining Let's Play experience, I think!

You are comparing apples with eggs here:
- Zombies are far more often used, so the hurdle to remove them is far higher.
- They are considered useful (and are used) by far more people.
- They add something far more unique to NeoLemmix than Slowfreeze or Radiation objects do.
- They don't cause any confusion.

Zombies don't cause confusion, really? Pre-skilled lemmings caused a lot of confusion on my pack, so just imagine how much confusion skilled zombies can cause, because their labels can't even be read properly, aside from the initial letter .

Up to now, we almost only added features and almost never removed any.

Timed bombers, rising water, wraparound, anti-gravity, the "kill your lems rather than saving them" idea... if you consider all the gimmicks individually, quite a lot of features were removed in one big chunk, and now a second one follows. If you had never added them in the first place, this would be a totally different thing. But as we all know, "you can't contain ideas". All these objects existing inspired level ideas, perhaps for some more than for others, and perhaps more than could be put into practice until now. You're trying to put the genie back into the bottle here.

This is also what I meant by "rushing the creation of levels featuring slowfreeze will diminish their quality". Of course, the first iteration of these levels will have backroutes (thanks to nin10doadict for telling me, I'll put a wall of steel between the hatches! ). Slowfreeze is a largely unexplored item, I'm one of the first people who seems to have the courage / creativity to toy around with it. What does it matter that no one found a use for it during the last two years? Now, there are people trying to use it, and there may be more in the future.

Btw, the hopefully fixed version of "Airborne aid" is attached .

Sorry, but if we wait until noone is creating a pack using some feature, before we remove it, no removal will happen at all.

Oh, I'm not asking for anyone to wait for me. I'm not asking for a delay. I'm asking for slowfreeze, anti-splat pads & their like to stay in, because, as Colorful Arty pointed out, I still can see literally no gain to anyone in removing them. "No removal will happen at all" sounds like "no removal" would be a loss. I have outlined to you how losing slowfreeze would be a loss, so can you tell me now how not removing something is a loss for anyone?

[Nepster]

Excuse me, how can you remove objects that are used in several levels like that? In my mind, culling something because "very few people use it" is a terrible reason to cull it, because it will break several levels while giving literally no benefit to anyone else. If few people use it, then why remove it any destroy the levels that do use the feature just because not enough use it? I do not see the rationale for that decision I must say.

As ccexplore already mentioned, I gave reasons besides low usage to cull these objects. However I always stressed the low usage, because I wanted to preserve as many levels as possible. Actually there are quite a few features that I would love to remove as well, but due to their high usage, I refrain from even suggesting it. In other words:
  "Low usage is not a reason to remove features, but high usage is a reason to keep them."
Unfortunately all such culling discussions have a tendency to focus on this usage aspect, in part because all people having actual levels using the features will complain and say "But you destroy my level!". That's totally understandable, and I have done so myself in the past.

Thanks to everyone for their replies and opinions. Here are my final decisions. I am aware that whatever I decide, there will be someone unhappy about it, and most likely noone will agree with all of my decisions (and this includes myself).

Dear Strato, have you read this? I know that you are unhappy if we don't keep everything, in the same way that I know Proxima and others (including myself) would have liked to cull more. The point here is: You are totally entitled to your own opinion and can ignore the given arguments for removal as irrelevant. But everyone else is entitled to their opinion, too! And this holds even true, if you cannot understand how they arrived at their opinion.
So I have to make some sort of compromise, and this time it was: You get to keep radiation objects and disarmers, and I get to remove slowfreeze and steel areas.
If you have any suggestion how to make everyone happy, please tell me! But simply keeping slowfreeze objects doesn't do this!

As far as designing new levels goes, Lemmix is dead.

That's what I thought. So it's quite funny then that I was pointed towards Lemmix for all my timed bomber needs .

If you like timed bombers so much, then revive Lemmix or build levels in Lemmini! If others agree with you and like timed bombers, then they will play your levels in Lemmix.

Even troll levels, as much as they can be hated, can just be skipped - I know a lot of people did that with the trolling level from PARALEMS, and I'm fine with that.

For this they have to know first, that the level is actually a trolling level. The hatred for such levels comes exactly from the fact, that people who would love to skip such levels, don't realize they play a troll level and try to solve it for a long time until the realization hits them.
This is actually one of the main reasons why we strive to present the player with the full information on the level: To enable to player to decide right away whether they want to play it or not!
Fun fact: When I played Paralems, I knew that there would come a trolling level somewhere, but while playing through the pack, I didn't find it. Only afterwards I actively looked for the trolling level using the clear physics more and then found it.

And who says level creators only build for the Lemmings forum? I've given my pack to my brother and a friend of his, who is a lot more casual in his playing of Lemmings, it mainly has nostalgic purposes for him. If I just serve him puzzles all day he will get a knot in his head after a couple of them and quit before finishing the first rank.

Noone is saying that people just build for the Lemmings forums. But unsatisfactory as it is, we can only hope to please the lemmings forums crowd, because we have no way to know what everyone else thinks.

I also think level packs providing a greater variety of challenges could also help the YouTubers here on the forum in growing their channels. Watching someone think about a puzzle for half an hour isn't really that much fun, is it? You could just play the pack and think about it yourself, then. Watching someone trying to execute an idea that has a little more action to it would make for a much more entertaining Let's Play experience, I think!

And you seem to confuse "puzzle levels" with "hard levels". Almost all of the original lemmings levels are still perfectly fine levels and even here you'll find several packs with relatively easy levels that have received a warm welcome. So while we certainly have packs, where one has to think for half an hour before getting some idea, not every pack is like this.
And sorry, but I don't really agree with your opinion regarding YouTube play-throughs: I remember a live-stream of Wafflem playing Raymanni's pack, where some of the levels took quite some time. But there was always a lot of action, because Wafflem tried out a lot of different approaches, that didn't work.
On the other hand, I don't see much sense in watching 30 minutes of "We all fall down", where someone has to repeat the level time and again due to some misclicks.

Zombies don't cause confusion, really? Pre-skilled lemmings caused a lot of confusion on my pack, so just imagine how much confusion skilled zombies can cause, because their labels can't even be read properly, aside from the initial letter .

That's actually a very good point. It needs to be easier to find out permanent skills that zombies have, or we will have to remove skilled zombies from the game, too.

I have outlined to you how losing slowfreeze would be a loss, so can you tell me now how not removing something is a loss for anyone?

I have to repeat myself here:
- Slowfreeze objects are not sufficiently distinguishable from radiation objects, so these two types can easily be confused with each other.
- Slowfreeze objects require very often frame-precise positioning, making solutions hard to execute.
- The effect of slowfreeze objects cannot be distinguished from the effect of radiation objects until the ten seconds have passed. Lemmings with a timer on top look all the same.
- New players have to wait for ten seconds until they see what happens. Good features give an immediate feedback.
Note that the loss is purely on the side of the people playing the game, not for level designers.

[Proxima]

That's what I thought. So it's quite funny then that I was pointed towards Lemmix for all my timed bomber needs.

Well, you can always try to revive Lemmix if you really want to build levels with timed bombers. Or make your own engine. I'm sorry if some of the responses in the timed bomber discussion were a bit curt. I'm afraid that is how we tend to react when a debate we've had at great length, and hoped was dead and buried, starts to show signs of life again.

Creating levels with timed bombers thereby wouldn't be possible, not to speak of combinations of timed bombers with the new skills.

True. But NL isn't aiming to be a platform for all possible level ideas. You also can't combine NL features with L2 skills such as the twister in any engine.

Radiation is the only thing that kinda emulates this in NeoLemmix, and that might go on the chopping block sometime in the future, too. Even though it seems like it survives this round and people promise "what stays now will stay for a long time", what does "long" really mean in this context? The older versions that feature a lot of the stuff I've grown to like are from when, 2016?

Nearly all of NL's new skills and objects are from around the time of Lemmings Plus III and Omega, both 2014.

Indeed, the only reason I see to remove something that barely gets used anyway is being afraid of what people might come up with. If it's just something less favoured by the community, so what? No one forces any member of the community to play the pack. Even troll levels, as much as they can be hated, can just be skipped - I know a lot of people did that with the trolling level from PARALEMS, and I'm fine with that. That doesn't necessitate nor justify taking the option of trolling away completely .

It's also about making the game more welcoming, and easier to learn, for new users. As you might see in the other current topics, right now there's a push to add yet more features to NL, because there are a few ideas that several community members would like to see included. But the engine already has a glut of features, so removing the least used ones is a reasonable way to maintain some kind of balance.

And who says level creators only build for the Lemmings forum?

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that. Thing is, the forum is the locus of pretty much all the feedback NL gets, so naturally when we debate over what features to maintain, remove and add, it's mainly going to come down to the input we get from forum members.

I've given my pack to my brother and a friend of his, who is a lot more casual in his playing of Lemmings, it mainly has nostalgic purposes for him. If I just serve him puzzles all day he will get a knot in his head after a couple of them and quit before finishing the first rank.

I don't agree at all. There are a few easier packs around; have you tried Casualemmings? Most of the large packs, such as the Lemmings Plus series and Lemmings Reunion, start with easy puzzles in the first rank or two.

I also think level packs providing a greater variety of challenges could also help the YouTubers here on the forum in growing their channels. Watching someone think about a puzzle for half an hour isn't really that much fun, is it?

You couldn't be more wrong. As well as Lemmings, I've been part of the DROD community for years, and I love watching DROD LPs; it's very satisfying to follow along with someone as they try to think their way towards a solution, and to see whether you can spot what they're missing before they do "Action" just isn't something I'd associate with Lemmings, even the original game; it's too slow-paced for its action to be thrilling.

Timed bombers, rising water, wraparound, anti-gravity, the "kill your lems rather than saving them" idea... if you consider all the gimmicks individually, quite a lot of features were removed in one big chunk, and now a second one follows. If you had never added them in the first place, this would be a totally different thing. But as we all know, "you can't contain ideas". All these objects existing inspired level ideas, perhaps for some more than for others, and perhaps more than could be put into practice until now. You're trying to put the genie back into the bottle here.

Not sure what you're trying to argue here. Gimmicks were removed a long time ago. Anyone who wants to design new levels with the old gimmicks has to dig up 1.43, and the maintainers of large packs had to remove or rework gimmick levels. Yes, that means we lost the potential for some possible level ideas ever to see fruition; but given the small size of the community and the limited time each of us has, I don't think that has decreased anyone's output. It's just changed the direction we've taken.

[Strato Incendus]

If you have any suggestion how to make everyone happy, please tell me! But simply keeping slowfreeze objects doesn't do this!

Gladly so! I think this statement of yours outlines the core of the reasons for our differing opinions:

That's actually a very good point. It needs to be easier to find out permanent skills that zombies have, or we will have to remove skilled zombies from the game, too.

You want to get rid of things that are currently confusing. That's understandable; I just ask "Why get rid of something if it could be improved?"

- I agree that radiation and slowfreeze look similar as objects. So why not simply make the colours of the graphics more distinguishable? Make the slowfreeze stars more blue, the radiation stars more yellow / orange. Also, the countdown numbers above the lemming's head could be adapted: A yellow / orange countdown for radiation, a blue one for slowfreeze.
This should solve nearly all of the problems you mentioned:
1) Slowfreeze and radiation could be more easily distinguishable without having to do much work on the graphics themselves (just some "hue/saturation" shifts in photoshop should do it).
2) The player would know right away what object he is dealing with, not only due to the distinguishable colours, but also as soon as a lemming walks into the object, you'd see judging by the countdown colour whether it's radiation or slowfreeze.
3) If you're worried about new players, you could place pickup skills over the object, like you do with hatches, to tell them on the introductory levels what this object does. This means: The first level with a radiation object in a pack should have a Bomber pickup skill placed above it, the first slowfreeze object should have a Stoner placed above it. Obviously it would be even more user-friendly to do this on every level featuring radiation or slowfreeze. Alternatively, you could incorporate the graphic of that pickup skill into the graphic of the object, so that whenever someone places a slowfreeze object while creating levels, there'd be some kind of stoner-graphic attached to it, and for radiation it would be a bomber.

Please tell me if there are any programming challenges related to this that would make it particularly hard to do. But my estimation is, since we're only talking about colour-shifting and a new "etiquette" as far as pickup-skill labeling is concerned, all of this should be comparatively easy to do?

- For Zombies, I'd suggest to spell out the skill just as for regular lemmings, but with a "-Z" attached. The type line seems to be long enough for that.

- While we're at it, we could consider how to label athletes with the skills they have. In original lemmings, "athlete" could only mean "climber + floater", but with swimmers, disarmers, and gliders in the mix, "athlete", "triathlete" or "X-athlete" doesn't tell us anything. An "X-athlete" has all the skills, but it's still unknown whether it is a glider or floater. Here we could use the initials of the skills, as it is currently done for zombies, so for example "Triathlete-C-F-S" for a lemming that is a climber, floater, and swimmer. This would be a little inconsistent with the method I proposed for labeling zombies, but at least everything would be identifiable.

Fun fact: When I played Paralems, I knew that there would come a trolling level somewhere, but while playing through the pack, I didn't find it. Only afterwards I actively looked for the trolling level using the clear physics more and then found it.

That's why I gave the level a pre-text ("Beware! Forget all you've learned so far and all you believe to be self-evident! Nothing in this level is as it seems!"). I agree that being surprised by a trolling level and wasting hours on a level with rigged rules is annoying. I'd simply introduce them the same level gimmick levels were introduced back then: With a pre-text that tells you what you're getting yourself into. Of course, a trolling level, in contrast to a gimmick level, wouldn't necessarily tell you how the rules are rigged, just that the rules are rigged on this particular level. And then everyone could decide whether to play it or not .

Gimmicks were removed a long time ago. Anyone who wants to design new levels with the old gimmicks has to dig up 1.43, and the maintainers of large packs had to remove or rework gimmick levels.

I have downloaded the 1.43 editor, and there is a field called "gimmick" in the level preferences, however it is set to "0000" and can't be altered . Do I need an even older version of the editor to actually create levels with gimmicks myself?

[Nepster]

First of all regarding zombies and other lemmings with permanent skills: For the new-formats version I already plan to automatically add some white-gray icons with the skill symbol in the following cases:
- At hatches with preasigned skills all the time.
- Above zombies whenever they are below the cursor
- Above normal lemmings whenever they are below the cursor, and one is in clear-physics more.
On the other hand, I plan to remove these one-letter labels completely. Perhaps this still needs some modification, but I would like to test the above first and get feedback.

Now regarding the slowfreeze objects:

I agree that radiation and slowfreeze look similar as objects. So why not simply make the colours of the graphics more distinguishable?

This was discussed already a long time ago. Upshot is, that for all other objects, their color is completely irrelevant and they can be recognized by their form.
Moreover the flickering-lights like slowfreeze and radiation objects are already color-coded and it doesn't work.

Also, the countdown numbers above the lemming's head could be adapted: A yellow / orange countdown for radiation, a blue one for slowfreeze.

And what tells players that these colors signify anything? I wasn't aware of the already existing color-coding I mentioned above until namida told me explicitely about it.

3) If you're worried about new players, you could place pickup skills over the object, like you do with hatches, to tell them on the introductory levels what this object does.

All of this solves symptoms of the issue "No immediate feedback", but not the cause!

That's why I gave the level a pre-text

Rule 0 in programming: Users never read anything! They want to play levels, not read pre-view texts. I am guilty of doing so myself... So advising players of game mechanics or troll levels via preview texts is certainly advisable, but cannot be the only means.

And I noticed, that you didn't respond at all to my point:
  - Slowfreeze objects require very often frame-precise positioning, making solutions hard to execute.

I have downloaded the 1.43 editor, and there is a field called "gimmick" in the level preferences, however it is set to "0000" and can't be altered . Do I need an even older version of the editor to actually create levels with gimmicks myself?

Gimmicks can be changed via "View -> Gimmicks Window". Then select the desired gimmick and click on "Activate this Gimmick".

[Strato Incendus]

Upshot is, that for all other objects, their color is completely irrelevant and they can be recognized by their form.

Well, that would be easy to solve: Use the stars animation only for either radiation or slowfreeze, and the other one gets the "machine" look that for example radiation & slowfreeze objects on the Purple and Lab tileset have currently.

That's confusing enough, after all, that on some tilesets, the star design is used, on others the generator look. That said though, other objects differ between tilesets, too, from exits to one-way blocks and -fields all the way to traps.

I do believe though there should be some similarity between those two objects on purpose, because they have in common that they are deadly to the lemming passing through, more specifically "death by skill use", which sets them apart from regular traps.

That's also the reason why I don't get "removing slowfreeze, but keeping radiation", just like I don't understand "removing anti-splat pads, but not splat pads". Both are logical counterparts of each other, like Yin and Yang. Why should a bomber be assignable by an object, but not a stoner, if these are the only two lethal skills?

Concerning anti-splat pads: They may be redunant with updrafts in theory. But for a new player, since you've adressed you want to consider their issues as well, it should be much easier to infer that an anti-splat pad does the opposite of a splat pad than to figure out that an updraft can be used as the opposite of an anti-splat pad. Think about it: Triggered traps also always do the same thing, yet we have loads of different triggered traps available .

And I noticed, that you didn't respond at all to my point:
  - Slowfreeze objects require very often frame-precise positioning, making solutions hard to execute.

Indeed I didn't, because that is the only part not adressed by my suggestions - difficulty of execution is a much wider topic in my view that goes way beyond radiation and slowfreeze.

However, the suggestion has been made to add skill blueprints to slowfreeze and radiation objects, like for the other skills. Meaning when you hover the mouse over a lemming that has a countdown, you'd see how far it is still going to walk / fall until it explodes / stones. Kinda as if skill blueprints had been introduced before timed bombers were abolished: Then bombers probably also would have gotten a skill blue print, wouldn't they?

So far, I don't see how slowfreeze positioning is more or less difficult than radiation positioning: Both give lethal skills to a walking lemming, that is the root of the execution issue. For a walking bomber, there's usually some leeway or "confidence interval", as is for a falling stoner that is e.g. supposed to break a fall. Of course, a level creator would have the option to measure out the exact fall height so a stoner would have to land at one specific pixel. But that's a d*ck move by that level dessigner then, and not a problem of the tool itself.

If you want to cut down on execution problems, this would have to be done consequentially - which would mean throwing out radiation AND slowfreeze, but probably also teleporters, since they require a couple of seconds to execute their function and are sensitive to release rate and other timing factors, i.e. how close lemmings are to each other. Also cloners, especially when used to duplicate skills, can be very pixel-precision-y... and gliders also, despite their skill blueprint...

You see, we could go on and on with finding features that cause execution problems. If a level creator wants to be mean, he will always find a way. I in contrast have edited "Airborne aid", because the original version combined slowfreeze and gliders, and that was really a pain. With floaters, it's a lot better. So I wouldn't say slowfreeze or gliders per se are problematic, there are only certain combinations of skills and features that we could generally advise not to (over-)use.

Rule 0 in programming: Users never read anything!

That may be true. However, if you are the user and cause damage for not reading the instructions, that's still the user's problem. We all know the stories of American companies sued by some random person because they didn't write upon their microwave "don't put your cat in here to dry its fur". The same is true for medicine, it is always advised to read the package leaflet.

I don't think it is our job as level creators to provide all-around comfort to players, especially not on higher difficulty ranks. Yes, we should be fair and tell them if certain physics changes apply in levels that don't apply otherwise. But we don't have to make up for mistakes committed by the player, especially harder levels are usually unforgiving in this regard. Players who have come that far can be trusted they have some sort of own agency, and they will know they have to use all the information required. For example, also level titles sometimes give a hint on how to solve a level - if the player clicks right away without reading the title, that's his fault, not the creator's.

"Action" just isn't something I'd associate with Lemmings, even the original game; it's too slow-paced for its action to be thrilling.

Just wanted to comment on this: Since I saw the cover of the original Lemmings again recently, it was actually sold as an "action puzzle". The puzzle element is certainly there, still.

Gimmicks can be changed via "View -> Gimmicks Window". Then select the desired gimmick and click on "Activate this Gimmick".

Thank you very much, I'll try it right away!

[Proxima]

I do believe though there should be some similarity between those two objects on purpose, because they have in common that they are deadly to the lemming passing through, more specifically "death by skill use", which sets them apart from regular traps.

For the record, I made exactly this point in the IRC discussion in the time leading up to the final decision. (Yes, I'm mostly in favour of the cull, but I have also said that I think slowfreeze and radiation should be treated alike.)

However, the suggestion has been made to add skill blueprints to slowfreeze and radiation objects, like for the other skills. Meaning when you hover the mouse over a lemming that has a countdown, you'd see how far it is still going to walk / fall until it explodes / stones. Kinda as if skill blueprints had been introduced before timed bombers were abolished: Then bombers probably also would have gotten a skill blue print, wouldn't they?

So far, I don't see how slowfreeze positioning is more or less difficult than radiation positioning: Both give lethal skills to a walking lemming, that is the root of the execution issue.

In the IRC discussion, these points were made in response: blueprints are not very helpful for radiation/slowfreeze because you usually have to take several actions to get the lemming to the right place, which the blueprint can't predict; slowfreeze is usually more difficult than radiation because one usually has to get the lemming to a more precise position, allowing less leeway. (Levels where the slowfreeze is simply to break a vertical fall are not the most common use.)

If you want to cut down on execution problems, this would have to be done consequentially - which would mean throwing out radiation AND slowfreeze, but probably also teleporters, since they require a couple of seconds to execute their function and are sensitive to release rate and other timing factors, i.e. how close lemmings are to each other. Also cloners, especially when used to duplicate skills, can be very pixel-precision-y... and gliders also, despite their skill blueprint...

But with framestepping, clones and gliders are easy to place as precisely as desired. That's not the case for getting a slowfreezed lemming to a precise place, which may require several assignments with no feedback about whether positioning was correct until the last one.

I agree that being surprised by a trolling level and wasting hours on a level with rigged rules is annoying. I'd simply introduce them the same level gimmick levels were introduced back then: With a pre-text that tells you what you're getting yourself into.

Actually, the first pack that introduced gimmicks (Lemmings Plus II) did not do this; the player had to figure out the rules for each gimmick by observation. For my part, I think it worked well as a different sort of challenge, and it was only later when the number of gimmicks got out of hand that I joined the side clamouring for their removal.

[Nepster]

Let's be clear about one point up-front: The only reason why I decided to keep radiation objects, is to preserve the relative large number of existing levels using them!

That's also the reason why I don't get "removing slowfreeze, but keeping radiation", just like I don't understand "removing anti-splat pads, but not splat pads". Both are logical counterparts of each other, like Yin and Yang. Why should a bomber be assignable by an object, but not a stoner, if these are the only two lethal skills?

That's the one argument I never understood myself. Why is being a "logical counterpart" any argument for having a feature? Wouldn't photo editing tools require then a tool to add scratches, if they have a tool to remove them?
Sure, sometimes it is useful to have the logical counterparts, but then it's their usefulness that's the argument for having them, not being a "logical counterpart".

If you want to cut down on execution problems, this would have to be done consequentially - which would mean throwing out radiation AND slowfreeze, but probably also teleporters, since they require a couple of seconds to execute their function and are sensitive to release rate and other timing factors, i.e. how close lemmings are to each other. Also cloners, especially when used to duplicate skills, can be very pixel-precision-y... and gliders also, despite their skill blueprint...

That's exactly what I would do, if my opinion would be the sole one that counts. That this does not happen is purely because I feel that you all should have a say in this matter. If you want me to rethink my decision to keep radiation objects and splat pads, then I will gladly do so.

However, if you are the user and cause damage for not reading the instructions, that's still the user's problem

In theory (and in legal questions) this is a perfectly fine position to take, but unfortunately in reality it creates tons of unhappy users.

I don't think it is our job as level creators to provide all-around comfort to players, especially not on higher difficulty ranks.

Sorry, but I totally disagree here. Players are the gods and we have to do all we can to make their experience as pleasant as possible. This is my personal opinion, and it's fine if you disagree. But it hopefully helps you to understand my arguments and decisions.


Finally I have to confess: All these further discussions make me wonder whether it wouldn't have been better to cull radiation objects as well. They really are out of place in NeoLemmix.

[Strato Incendus]

Wouldn't photo editing tools require then a tool to add scratches, if they have a tool to remove them?

Actually, my version of Photoshop does indeed have such a scratch tool. And that is even just a very old version from Photoshop, from 2002 or so. So yes, in general I think for everything you can do in a programme, there should be some kind of counter-measure to balance it. We have a destructive skill that kills a lemming (bomber), and a creative skill that kills a lemming (stoner).

While original Lemmings didn't do this - building could only be done upwards, mining only downwards - we have started to move into that direction, by adding things like the platformer (moving along the same plain of motion as a basher) and the fencer (=a miner in reverse). A stoner is a bomber in reverse, and can actually be used in much more diverse ways than the bomber (break falls, turn lemmings including stopping climbers, build bridges etc.).

Therefore, if we want objects that assign skills, we should either have both or none of them. Taking this beyond lethal skills, one could even imagine timed objects that can assign any temporary skill to a lemming passing through - like slow-build, slow-bash, or slow-dig . A countdown over their head, and after 9 seconds the lemming starts / tries to dig / bash. This would e.g. allow to clone diggers, something that isn't useful so far. I know this won't be implemented, it's just a thought experiment.

Sorry, but I totally disagree here. Players are the gods and we have to do all we can to make their experience as pleasant as possible.

Okay, it's good to know this. In my view, the level creator is the god - but only in the sense of "with great power comes great responsibility". I see this a bit like being a game master in Dungeons & Dragons: The level creator's job is not to defeat the players (that could be easily done because you have the power to put them into impossible situations), but neither to make the experience a cakewalk. The game master should challenge the player in a fair and transparent way, I think that's something we can all agree on.

Where we seem to differ is what counts as "fair": I don't consider reaction time, multitasking or somewhat precise placement of skills unfair to the player. They are just different skills a player of the original Lemmings game needed to have, just as he needed to have problem solving / puzzling skills, and, coming from a psychologist background, I want to "measure" these skills with my levels as well, not just the competence of problem solving. Good estimation of the position where to assign a skill is a mark of visuo-spatial imagination that at least some levels in a pack should reward.

While the puzzly packs I have seen so far are by no means a cakewalk as far as figuring out the route is concerned, they certainly are with regards to the execution. Even "Save Me", the hardest level on original Lemmings, is a complete joke with NeoLemmix tools. And while I view framestepping and replay features as overall convenient, I don't believe the only challenge the introduction of these options leaves us with is creating huge levels that visually confuse the player on purpose and make them count the skills they use. I enjoy that from time to time, but I think there are more different types of challenges than that, many of them unexplored so far. After all, frame-stepping also allows us to do much more mean things with regard to pixel precision than the original Lemmings could have ever afforded, and your level "Ninjas in the attic" is a prime example of that ^^.

Trolling (i.e. making normal terrain steel or steel normal terrain, hiding exits / traps, invisible & fake objects etc.) I would consider unfair, but not to the point of banning them. I just think such levels should be clearly identifiable in advance so they adress only the target audience they are designed for an that will enjoy them. Once again, "with great power comes great responsibility": Just because you CAN create something trolly as a level maker, it doesn't mean you should. And if you decide you want to, you should carefully consider how to go about it. Outright "banning" stuff, in contrast, in my experience just makes people crave more for what has been formerly available and is now forbidden / impossible.

Finally I have to confess: All these further discussions make me wonder whether it wouldn't have been better to cull radiation objects as well. They really are out of place in NeoLemmix.

Well, as I have already cynically predicted: That will probably be the first thing to happen in the next NeoLemmix release then, won't it?

Perhaps paradoxically, I support that decision. As I've said before: Be consequential. Either remove both of them in the name of combating execution difficulties, or leave both of them in for future creators to explore.

And perhaps more people will speak out in favour of keeping something if their own levels are on the chopping block, too , which is the case with radiation more so than with slowfreeze. A lot of mine use slowfreeze and radiation in combination, so those levels are destroyed either way. Since I have nothing left to lose in this regard, I can just as easily openly support the removal of radiation from future versions of NeoLemmix!

[Ryemanni]

Yes, remove radiation too. No need to keep it in just because some old levels use it. We will make new levels.

[Nepster]

Ok, so let's reconsider the decision to keep radiation objects. I try to summarize the various opinions here:
- Nepster, Proxima, Raymanni: Remove radiation objects.
- möbius: Slight preference towards removing.
- IchoTolot, Simon, Wafflem: Indifferent - will never use, but not against keeping it.
- namida: Can see arguments for both decisions.
- GigaLem: Slight preference towards keeping it.
- nin10doadict, Colorful Arty: Keep radiation objects.
- Strato Incendus: Likes radiation objects, but advocates to be consequential and remove it nevertheless.

Correct so far? Then the opinions are rather varied, which doesn't really helpes to make a decision.

[Proxima]

I don't consider reaction time, multitasking or somewhat precise placement of skills unfair to the player. They are just different skills a player of the original Lemmings game needed to have, just as he needed to have problem solving / puzzling skills, and, coming from a psychologist background, I want to "measure" these skills with my levels as well, not just the competence of problem solving. Good estimation of the position where to assign a skill is a mark of visuo-spatial imagination that at least some levels in a pack should reward.

To an extent, I agree: it's good that levels reward skill, and satisfying for the player when they do. The trouble is that we can't have it both ways. We decided, a long time ago, to push in the direction of easing execution and concentrating on rewarding solving skill, and that has allowed the creation of many levels that wouldn't have been conceivable in the older engines. This does mean that levels designed to reward execution skill become devalued. That's a loss, but it's one we're prepared to accept because of the gain to puzzle possibilities. After all, there are lots of other games that reward execution skill, but not many playgrounds for the kind of puzzle design we enjoy.

I don't believe the only challenge the introduction of these options leaves us with is creating huge levels that visually confuse the player on purpose and make them count the skills they use.

Neither do I "You only get one bash at it" and "The Mile High Club", two of the hardest levels in the Lix community set, are both single-screen.

Trolling (i.e. making normal terrain steel or steel normal terrain, hiding exits / traps, invisible & fake objects etc.) I would consider unfair, but not to the point of banning them. I just think such levels should be clearly identifiable in advance so they adress only the target audience they are designed for an that will enjoy them. Once again, "with great power comes great responsibility": Just because you CAN create something trolly as a level maker, it doesn't mean you should. And if you decide you want to, you should carefully consider how to go about it. Outright "banning" stuff, in contrast, in my experience just makes people crave more for what has been formerly available and is now forbidden / impossible.

Hiding exits and traps remains semi-supported by the editor, although the player can easily reveal them in clear physics mode. For manual steel and invisible and fake objects, it would require additional effort to include support for them in the new-formats editor, so that wasn't going to happen unless Nepster got a lot of input saying that the active userbase would like to make use of these features, which hasn't happened.

In general, we don't forbid anything, we just make recommendations. There's a list of guidelines on the NeoLemmix website; it includes, for example, "use unlimited time, except when the time limit is deliberately part of the puzzle", but we don't forbid users from including time limits. (Simon is particularly vocal about time limits, but the rest of us try to keep him in check.)

[IchoTolot]

While the puzzly packs I have seen so far are by no means a cakewalk as far as figuring out the route is concerned, they certainly are with regards to the execution. Even "Save Me", the hardest level on original Lemmings, is a complete joke with NeoLemmix tools. And while I view framestepping and replay features as overall convenient, I don't believe the only challenge the introduction of these options leaves us with is creating huge levels that visually confuse the player on purpose and make them count the skills they use. I enjoy that from time to time, but I think there are more different types of challenges than that, many of them unexplored so far. After all, frame-stepping also allows us to do much more mean things with regard to pixel precision than the original Lemmings could have ever afforded, and your level "Ninjas in the attic" is a prime example of that ^^.

Trolling (i.e. making normal terrain steel or steel normal terrain, hiding exits / traps, invisible & fake objects etc.) I would consider unfair, but not to the point of banning them. I just think such levels should be clearly identifiable in advance so they adress only the target audience they are designed for an that will enjoy them. Once again, "with great power comes great responsibility": Just because you CAN create something trolly as a level maker, it doesn't mean you should. And if you decide you want to, you should carefully consider how to go about it. Outright "banning" stuff, in contrast, in my experience just makes people crave more for what has been formerly available and is now forbidden / impossible.

I am quite radical in that regard. The only thing I even count as difficulty is the puzzle aspect. The hardest level for me originally was "No added colors or Lemmings", "Save me" is only hard because of execution while the solution is painfully obvious and I even would say it isn't a good level in the first place (too much building).
The puzzle was always my challenge, the execution could be a possible annoying part, but that changed for the better. Simple execution I still enjoy.

Really good huge levels which still show everything I consider a special art to make. A part of that is to dazzle the player a bit with the big landscape, but finding the right path to solve it is very satisfying. Still they show everything and have nothing hidden. Dragging on for too long without substantionally adding anything is also bad.
I recommend: http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=2299.0

With today's tools given to us: Being to precise without any reason is bad, but I would not shy away from precise actions if they are unavoidable and add to the solution in a positive manner.

Unfair things have to go, I'll make no prisoners here and I just despise them. I absolutely hate cheaters and abusers of unfair elements. I am the first one to descourage them and show the right way of the fair and challenging puzzle.

Sorry, but I totally disagree here. Players are the gods and we have to do all we can to make their experience as pleasant as possible.

Okay, it's good to know this. In my view, the level creator is the god - but only in the sense of "with great power comes great responsibility". I see this a bit like being a game master in Dungeons & Dragons: The level creator's job is not to defeat the players (that could be easily done because you have the power to put them into impossible situations), but neither to make the experience a cakewalk. The game master should challenge the player in a fair and transparent way, I think that's something we can all agree on.

My point of view is: I want to treat the player good like a god. I want him to understand, learn and see everything, but my goal is still (at least for the last rank): Defeat (stomp) the player fair and square. No dirty tricks, no hidden stuff - just a 100% fair, logical and solvable puzzles that get the better of him. So yes, I still want to defeat him in the end.

The player is a god who shall be satisfied, but the pack creator is also a god challenging the player to a fair duell that he wants to win. I always try to have something for everyone in my packs and there will always be things one person hates and another loves -- huge levels as an example here    I love to make huge levels, but I also throw in some smaller ones so that both types have something they enjoy. Size also doesn't define difficulty - the tricks and entropy of the level does.

[Strato Incendus]

For manual steel and invisible and fake objects, it would require additional effort to include support for them in the new-formats editor,

See, these are the types of changes I can totally understand. Extra work for something barely anyone uses? The cost-benefit analysis clearly says no. But additional required effort, as far as I remember, wasn't on the list of problems concerning slowfreeze.

That's a loss, but it's one we're prepared to accept because of the gain to puzzle possibilities. After all, there are lots of other games that reward execution skill, but not many playgrounds for the kind of puzzle design we enjoy.

Well, I'm working on "Pit Lems", refering to another such puzzle game "Pit Droids". That one will be purposefully more puzzly, and I shall see how that one is received by the community. It does have quite a lot of radiation and slowfreeze though, so I hope people keep their 10.13 version for quite some time, still .

PARALEMS has also been overhauled, but there are a couple of people still playing the current version, so I want to include their feedback before I upload the new version. That one obviously also still has slowfreeze and anti-splat pads, and I'm not planning to change that.

In case new skills or similar would be added to the new version, I'd try it out and see what ideas I come up with, for example for the shimmier in case it should be implemented. But should the new version only be a "reduction", while it would be understandable for me considering all the effort it takes to add new skills, personally I wouldn't see a purpose in using it when 10.13 could simply do more.

Size also doesn't define difficulty - the tricks and entropy of the level does.

I never claimed it does . I'd actually prefer more "contained levels" like "Mining company". Huge levels are great when they match the provided resources exactly, so that there's a danger of running out of them, like on "Final Frustration". However, a lot of puzzly levels I've seen so far are just "huge landscape spanning the entire screen, here's XX of every skill, go!"

These levels take a long time to solve mainly because of their execution . Scarcity of resources only rarely makes these levels more complicated, usually playing along a couple of general guidelines is enough to save resources (like "can I afford to go down here? Then I should use a miner and save the bashers for where I need them.").

Unfair things have to go, I'll make no prisoners here and I just despise them.

Well, I appreciate people standing up for their opinion, and even when they're convinced of it to a missionary extent that could be called a "crusade" for "puzzles only". Different players have different playing philosophies . However, as soon as one philosophy proclaims itself as the only "right" one, and this idea coincides with the removal of features that would be feasable for alternative views, that is what I call enforcing an ideology.

Having just played through the gimmicks rank of the old 1.43 introduction pack (thanks again to Nepster!), now I'm even less inclined to blame specific features for shortcomings of levels: A lot of these gimmicks that are gone now, at least in the form they were conceptionalised in, actually increased the amount of puzzling for me, even though on the surface all these gimmicks may just seem like random crazy stuff. Meaning: Sometimes you might throw out something just because you currently believe it conflicts with your philosophy, but it might turn out later that is not actually the case.

I admit that for radiation and slowfreeze, that probability is lower because they overlap with the discarded idea of timed bombers. If you're for an all puzzle approach, it would make more sense to me to throw out radiation and slowfreeze together and keep anti-splat pads and splat pads as a unit, rather than one of each, which feels kinda half-hearted.

I absolutely hate cheaters and abusers of unfair elements.

But the "cheater" in that scenario is the level creator, not the player, if I get that correctly? All the stuff we do with our nice convenient NeoLemmix features would totally be cheating by original Lemmings standards. And if the standards for what is cheating and what is not aren't universal, neither are the standards for what is fair or not.



@Nepster: Yes, I think you've summarised my position pretty much spot-on . The idea is: If 10.13 has radiation and slowfreeze and the new version has neither, there will be more differences setting apart the two versions, thereby more players who are on the fence about radiation / slowfreeze who will keep 10.13 installed. Different iterations of NeoLemmix for different uses, I'm fine with that! (1.43 for gimmicks, 10.13 for radiation / slowfreeze, new-format for shimmiers and whatever you might add ).

[Nessy]

IchoTolot is not enforcing his ideas on people. He is just expressing his opinion on something that he feels very passionate about. That's good. What I love about this community is that we can express ourselves without resorting to calling each other names or making nasty comments like in other communities that I have seen. True that different people have different philosophies, and not everybody is going to agree. That's okay! For example, I also dislike hidden content, but I don't mind repeat levels where both repeats have a unique solution. That's just my opinion and there are people here that don't agree and they will argue their stance. That's fine! You cannot change someone's beliefs, but nobody is trying to change anybody's beliefs. To me the most important thing ever is that we can all listen to each other.

[Strato Incendus]

Nobody is trying to change anyone's beliefs, but, to stay in religious terms, the "non-strictly puzzly" side has no churches . That makes it harder for them to practice their faith.

It just so happens to be that puzzles that take execution out of the equation are favoured among those who have the programming skills here on the forum. And if they decide to "take some toys away", the other camp gets passively affected by this. As I said, I understand reasons like "it's not worth the additional effort" from a programming standpoint. I also understand the problems associated with slowfreeze, radiation, anti-splat pads etc.

What I don't understand is what actual gain would result from their removal aside from "I can sleep better now because now I know for sure I won't have to see any levels including them" - it seems like a symbolic act that will barely have an overall effect, because so few levels use them, however those few who are affected by it are affected severely.

And that just feels like unnecessary censorship to me, especially when NeoLemmix allows you to just jump ahead to the next level. Or just play a different pack, of a fellow puzzle-lover who won't use these objects anyway. Meanwhile the kids can play with their execution-based action figures .

Seriously, the pool of packs is so vast that I just can't figure out why we even have to step on each other's toes in this matter . Having options isn't harmful, especially when most level creators seem to apply very careful consideration when designing their packs. I have yet to see any pack that really exploits such loopholes - if there is one, it's probably buried somewhere on the last page of the level packs subforum, because it's so unpopular . How much harm can it possibly do from there?

[Nepster]

Strato Incendus, I believe I mentioned it before, but yet again: NeoLemmix wants to give players as much control and information about levels, in order to reduce the amount of exploration and executional difficulties. As the focus lies on the players, it only is a natural consequence to take away the toys from level designers that (have a huge tendency to) increase such difficulties.

You ask what harm there is? The harm comes from the fact, that trolling levels and similar are contrary to what players expect. I donate my free time to NeoLemmix to give those level players who look for puzzles a great time. I don't do this to allow level designers absolute freedom, to make players looking for executional challenges happy or even to preserve old content. Those are all secondary goals. What you descibe with "Meanwhile the kids can play with their execution-based action figures" is simply another game: One that is equally valid, and can be equally much fun, but simply isn't NeoLemmix.

I feel with you and agree that it is a sad situation, that there is no programmer maintaining a lemmings clone, that focuses more on level designer needs or works to maintain a decent amount of executional challenges. But no matter how much you complain about this situation, I will not change the direction into which NeoLemmix is going.

Ok, and here is the more important part of this post: I am very seriously considering removing support for radiation objects, too! The discussion over the last few days has shown me, that radiation objects really don't fit into NeoLemmix and my first decision to keep it out of (misplaced) well-meaning for existing content, was probably not the best one considering the mid- and long-term future of NeoLemmix.

[Strato Incendus]

Well, if New Formats is supposed to become the standard version of Neo Lemmix for the foreseeable future, I'd definitely remove radiation, too. After all, when will be the next opportunity you'll get to remove it?

Concerning "pleasing creators vs. pleasing players": I for one also enjoy some execution-based levels in between puzzles as a player. Too many puzzles in sequence just tie a knot into my head . I might be able to solve them later, but I progress through a pack like that very slowly, because after a couple of levels I just find it tiring, so I stop and continue another day. The mean reason for me to do that is that the satisfaction of solving a complicated puzzle gets immediately dispersed by the next one appearing right away.

I guess I'm in the minority with this view, I just wanted to outline how pleasing the players and pleasing creators don't have to be mutually exclusive. As I've stated before, my goal is not to defeat the player (as IchoTolot), but merely to challenge them in a versatile manner. Hence, I don't want to be unnecessarily "mean" as a creator. And as a player, I like to see several of my skills challenged.

[nin10doadict]

Quote from Ichotolot:

My point of view is: I want to treat the player good like a god. I want him to understand, learn and see everything, but my goal is still (at least for the last rank): Defeat (stomp) the player fair and square. No dirty tricks, no hidden stuff - just a 100% fair, logical and solvable puzzles that get the better of him. So yes, I still want to defeat him in the end.

That was my view when I first started making Lemmings Squared. After posting it, I was harshly made to realize who I was dealing with. Casualemmings is my repentance for being foolish enough to believe I could defeat the veterans. Though I have been making a bit more progress on some of namida's levels... Just a bit.

From the looks of it, radiation is going to go away too. That's fine; I'll just stop making levels with it. I had a few more ideas with radiation, but I can come up with other ideas that don't use it. I probably won't be switching over to the new format for a while yet anyway, so perhaps I'll just use these ideas while I still can and then never have to bother thinking of ways to use radiation ever again.

Removal of features does prevent some levels from existing in newer versions, yes. This cannot be avoided. But those levels aren't gone for good. If you want to play it, you can still boot up the old version. Just like with the first Lemmings game: If you want to deal with having to restart a long level because you made one slip-up right at the end, the original game is still there for you. The fact that the old versions still exist and can be developed for if you so choose is what really makes the decision to cut a feature less painful to deal with. I support Nepster's push to take NeoLemmix in a different direction that tries to limit execution-based difficulty; that's why the engine was created in the first place.

[bsmith]

I'm a bit surprised that the discussion about radiation/slowfreeze took several pages.  My thoughts are that these two 'traps' are the most fiddly things currently in Neolemmix. I have yet to see a level that uses either of these that did not annoy me.  They also go against an aesthetic of action happening at the point of the trigger/skill assignment.  So I say throw them both out.

It looks like we are keeping disarmers, which I support.

I am leaning towards removing splat pads and anti-splat pads, especially when updrafts exist.  Updrafts seem to make more sense than the anti-splat pad, somehow.

[Nepster]

Giving the most recent feedback, I will remove radiation objects from the new-formats version, too.

One question that remains is: What should we do with the existing sprites?
- Door-like radiation/slowfreeze objects: I would like to simply remove these sprites, as they are pretty similar to teleporters and receivers. Perhaps the one or other can even be turned into a teleporter?
- Sparkling lights: They look pretty unique, so I am not sure what to do with them. Perhaps keep them around until we add another suitable object type, instead of repurposing them right away?
- Blinkling bubble from namida's wasteland style: I like the animation and would love to keep this sprite around. What about letting have it a come-back as a fire object?

Note: Existing slowfreeze and radiation objects will be removed from all levels when converting, even if we decide to repurpose some of the sprites.

[Nessy]

I think the radiation object would make a nice teleporter, as for the slowfreeze object I actually think it might be more suited as a trap that freezes a lemming... maybe. It doesn't look as threatening as some other traps, but it doesn't really look friendly either. If anything, I might just create a small animation on what I see happening to a lemming with a slowfreeze if it's a trap.

Are the sparkling lights the ones that are in the L2 circus tileset? If so I say we can keep it the way it is for now unless someone comes up with a better purpose for it.

I think the blinkling bubbles can be used as a fire object. They didn't look friendly to begin with, so using it as a fire object won't surprise players.

[Nepster]

Are the sparkling lights the ones that are in the L2 circus tileset? If so I say we can keep it the way it is for now unless someone comes up with a better purpose for it.

No, the ones that were previously slowfreeze/radiation objects, too. Strato Incendus used them in the level "Only over my dead bodies".

[Strato Incendus]

I can understand the wish to keep using the animations, it just seems extra-confusing if a visual element you know and recognise now does something completely different than expected. Sort-of like the green acid water from the Lab tileset that actually behaves like fire. Of course the behaviour of these objects will be consistent in the new formats version, it will just certainly take some time to adapt. Like Nepster mistook the airlock trap from the space tileset for an exit , or Flopsy considered Nessy in the Highland tileset a trap (which, admittedly, in my levels it usually is ...)

But on a cross-graphic set level, this change seems similar to switching from steel level sides to lethal level sides globally. That's also something I have to keep reminding myself of, now that I have started to use the 1.43 editor again as well .

[Nepster]

Very good point. So let's try it with just the glowing ball as a fire object while the new-formats is still experimental. After that we can compare our experiences with it and decide whether to keep it, remove it or even repurpose further sprites.
I will of course add a corresponding warning when posting the experimental new-formats players.

[Dullstar]

I am late to the party, as I haven't been around much recently, but I thought I'd add my thoughts on Radiation/Slowfreeze:

While I am slightly hesitant to cull because of existing content, I find these objects rather awkward to work with. If you'll recall I made some tutorial levels for the community pack. I made one for slowfreeze, but I don't like it very much. It was quite difficult to come up with something that functioned at all, honestly. I never even bothered with radiation.
I never could think of a way to really use the objects in a real level (that said, my levels aren't particularly challenging, so...)

I haven't used disarmers very much. It's easier to conceal solutions using other skills, though I am sure someone much more experienced with the game and much more clever than I am has managed to come up with a way to use them in a puzzle.