"Lemmings Redux": A "remake" of official games for NeoLemmix.

[bsmith]

To try to get this moving again, I have taken the time to compile the list of 127 I posted earlier, plus the 23 levels I think should be added, minus the special graphic levels, to get a resultant list of 146 levels.

The sort into five ranks is rough at best.  The only levels I see staying put are the first thirteen levels in the first rank (Fun 1-7 and 6 of the Tame levels).

I would like everyone's input as to how to sort these into five ranks.  Then we can nominate other levels to fill in shorter ranks.

[namida]

bsmith - I'll look in more detail later, but is this list taking into account other people's suggestions as well? If so, let's use that list as a "starting" point for the future discussions on this.

[bsmith]

Yes, other people's suggestions are reflected.  The list of 127 levels I posted earlier in the thread was a compilation I made which tracked where multiple people other than myself wanted certain levels included.  Each of those levels has at least two backers.  The 23 I added were also supported by one other person.

I definitely do not expect this list to be final, but I do want this project to move forward and thought that an alpha version would get some ideas flowing.

[namida]

Awesome.

So, any suggestions for changes from bsmith's list? (Especially in regards to additions / removals) Or are we probably ready to move onto ordering now?

[Nepster]

Yes, other people's suggestions are reflected.  The list of 127 levels I posted earlier in the thread was a compilation I made which tracked where multiple people other than myself wanted certain levels included.  Each of those levels has at least two backers. [...]

How did you handle levels where at least two people wanted to remove them? I thought at least Proxima and myself wanted at most three instead of the current six tame levels.
And how did you handle levels where people posted contradicting opinions, e.g. when two wanted to include a level and one was against? (not sure whether this actually happened)

[bsmith]

I went on a level-by-level basis, looking at specifically named levels.  I did not include blanket claims like 'only 3 tame levels'.  Just from looking at the levels in the current set I think we may need to have more than three Tame levels just to keep the difficulty in the first rank easy, especially if more levels are added and we approach 35-40 levels per rank.  Of course if we do keep the pack to roughly the current size then I can see having only three or four tame levels.

If someone did not want a level, then that canceled out one vote from people who did want it in.  So the levels I included had a net +2 or higher votes.  There are maybe three or four levels that had 3-1=2 net votes. I don't think there were any levels in this set that two people wanted to exclude, but if there is then at least four other people said yes to it.

In any case this is not final.  I fully expect additions and subtractions to occur.  The 146 level set is my best guess as to where we stand right now in terms of what to include.

Honestly, right now I want to see how this current set of 146 levels is distributed in difficulty.  I think we have a larger number of medium difficulty levels than easy or hard levels right now.  If this current set of levels get a good sort, then we will have a better idea of which kind of levels to add or remove

[Wafflem]

Before we go any further, should we wait until Ron_Stard has completed his ZX Spectrum / NES Remakes?

[namida]

Before we go any further, should we wait until Ron_Stard has completed his ZX Spectrum / NES Remakes?

Are there any levels from it you specifically have in mind to suggest?

[Wafflem]

Not yet. I haven't played them yet, but I'm just suggesting that these levels should also be taken into consideration.

I'll look at them when I have the time and suggest which ones should be included.

Another thing to note is that a majority of these are Crystal levels, something which has noticeably been very lacking in the Original games (and only one level of Sunsoft uses it).

[namida]

Graphic set balance should be an afterthought at most. Perhaps to the extent of slightly rearranging a few levels to avoid repeating the same set too many times in a row, or even to that of, if we have two otherwise-roughly-equal levels to consider, we use "This level uses a less common graphic set" as a tiebreaker. It shouldn't be a strong consideration.

[Flopsy]

I'd like to weigh in on the NES levels, there's only 3 that I would call unique. Arctic Lemming, Spot of Bother/Is That Lemming Licensed and Hello John Got A New Lemming.
I attempted to recreate those levels over in the ZX spectrum/nes topic and posted screenshots of them. They are almost true to the originals except I made some modifications to account for the less steep builders since builders are 45 degrees in NES/spectrum.

I'd say the levels are average, Hello John Got A New Lemming has a good solution but is let down by Floating every lemming out of the trapdoor.

Arctic Lemming is like a Fun level because you get X of everything pretty much, not that exciting.
Spot of Bother and its repeat have another set of good solutions, takes a bit of thinking to solve them. I feel there is more potential for these levels because the skillsets are awful. The repeat is very builder heavy!
All 3 are crystal graphic set and they have some odd shaped crystal terrain.

I'm only talking about the NES levels. Some of the NES levels I haven't mentioned are also in the ZX Spectrum version.
You can download the spectrum levels in the topic and try them for yourself 😊

[Proxima]

As the current number is 146, I think we should aim for 150, probably by adding a few more PSP levels, L2 remakes and maybe ZXS/NES levels (I haven't looked at these yet so I don't know what they are like), and then removing a few to get back down to the round number.

I'm happy with using bsmith's current list as a starting point, since it takes into account the feedback so far. So, in order to avoid anyone having to look again through all 10 pages of the thread, I'll list again the ones on this list that I have reservations about including. This isn't the same as "voting against", since we are currently short of the target, so we should probably decide on additions first, then an appropriate number of removals.

Present 4 -- this may have been included by error, since Nepster originally voted in favour, then withdrew his vote when I pointed out the level contains many hidden traps.
Taxing 18 - we threw out the bomber timing levels. Why add this one back?
Tame 8, 9, 20 -- three Tames is enough, and these three don't contribute anything new.
Frost 13 -- while not completely trivial, not very interesting either.
Covox 8 -- more annoying than fun.
Wild 8 -- uninteresting.
Sunsoft 26 -- requires miner turning on OWW, which will be removed in future versions of NL. Weird to have Part Three before Parts One and Two, but also weird to put it after, since it is the easiest.
Wild 10 -- uninteresting. I remember Insane Steve called this "the worst level in ONML".
Sunsoft 28 -- nothing special. Could be kept or removed depending on number of levels.
Havoc 19 -- hidden traps, probably unfixable backroutes.

Other than that, this looks like a really solid shortlist! I'll list my suggested additions soon; this will take a bit longer as there are more levels to look through

[bsmith]

As far as unfavorable levels, I don't have as long of a list.  Other than some reassessment of which tame levels to include the only level I don't think is that good is Mayhem 21 "With a twist of lemming please".  The second half is a nice puzzle but the first half is having to float every single lemming out - a tedious chore to do before the actual puzzle comes into play.

I think there should be four tame levels - one of each ONML graphic set.  L4 for the bubble set - it has a good emphasis on vertical movement.  L5 for the brick set - it introduces steel.  L7 for the snow set - the terrain trap on the left is a gentle way to get new players used to the idea of surveying the entire level.  L14 for the rock set - in my opinion it is the least trivial of the five rock levels.

One more thought - add Frost 5 after the tame levels.  A very easy level to introduce the xmas graphic set and multiple entrances.

[Proxima]

If we're going to NeoLemmix-ify the levels, we could just make it a floater-spawning trapdoor

Though I remember that some other version (SMS?) had a level with the same terrain and a better puzzle. We could use that instead.

[Proxima]

One more thought - add Frost 5 after the tame levels.  A very easy level to introduce the xmas graphic set and multiple entrances.

Frost 3 would be better for that. Easy, but not completely trivial. Also, if we have this then I feel we don't need a separate level to "introduce" the almost identical Snow set.