Poll

Should we use Amiga or Genesis for the special graphics levels?

Amiga for all four
3 (33.3%)
Genesis for "Beast" and "MENACING"
6 (66.7%)
Genesis for all four
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 9

Voting closed: November 05, 2017, 08:14:01 pm

Author Topic: "Lemmings Redux": A "remake" of official games for NeoLemmix.  (Read 46224 times)

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Offline Proxima

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Re: "Lemmings Redux": A "remake" of official games for NeoLemmix.
« Reply #45 on: March 30, 2016, 05:33:00 pm »
Pretty good list. The only ones I don't agree with are:

Wild 1 - yes, it may be harder than Wicked 6 when both have untimed bombers, but it's not that hard. Rank 3.
Havoc 7 and 18 - very hard levels, should be Rank 5.
Havoc 3 - this is really easy, and I don't think de-backrouting is much of an option as it's not clear how to change it. Either move to rank 3, or (probably) remove.
Wild 13 - as we're removing time limits except when they are the main point of the level, I think this one will be unlimited, so it should come earlier. Probably Rank 3.

Offline namida

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Re: "Lemmings Redux": A "remake" of official games for NeoLemmix.
« Reply #46 on: March 30, 2016, 05:34:34 pm »
Quote
Wild 13 - as we're removing time limits except when they are the main point of the level, I think this one will be unlimited, so it should come earlier. Probably Rank 3.

They don't nessecerially have to be the main point, but they should add to the difficulty rather than just being an annoyance. Wicked 2 is an example of a level where, although the time limit isn't the main difficulty, I would argue for keeping it, as it does nonetheless require some time-saving tricks to make it in time, without being overly fidgety to do so.

Let's also keep in mind that adjusting the time limits in some cases may be an option, for levels where the current limits make it extremely fidgety, yet removing the limit would be a bad idea. In particular, with NeoLemmix, we have the option of having part-minutes in the time limit, rather than being restricted to whole-minute limits. This way, for those kind of levels, we can add an extra 15 or 30 seconds, in cases where adding a whole extra minute would negate the whole point of having one. Of course, in the case of levels where the time limit is primarily an annoyance more than anything else (eg. Mayhem 12) or just means you've got to be quite precise with when you release the crowd (eg. Mayhem 29), or where it's fairly irrelevant in the first place (training levels), it should be removed.
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Offline Flopsy

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Re: "Lemmings Redux": A "remake" of official games for NeoLemmix.
« Reply #47 on: March 30, 2016, 06:01:24 pm »
These are the ONML levels I feel need to be added in

Crazy 15 - Worra Load of Blocks - (This has a Genesis remake) Always liked the trick used with Diggers in this level.
Crazy 16 - Across the Gap - I think this level is tricky and should be included
Crazy 17 - Digging for Victory - This has a similar problem to ONWARDS AND UPWARDS where the time limit is harsh. But we can adjust the time limit if necessary
Crazy 19 - Don't Panic - The design for this level is excellent, there's a few different ways to tackle this level and it's too great a level to not include.
Wild 4 - Meeting Adjourned - Yes, it's a builder heavy level but it's tricky to contain the lemmings at the start.
Wild 8 - It's A Tight Fit - Believe it or not, I like this level a lot and the solution is simple to see but hard to execute. Not a problem in Neo Lemmix I feel.
Wild 14 - Ice Spy - Just a good suggestion for Snow graphic sets which seem to be lacking in the levels already in.
Wild 20 - Got Anything Lemmingy - Another good level with a nice solution.
Wicked 18 - Another Snow graphic set, probably the hardest snow level in the game even. It's possible to do this level by going over or under and I like that about it.
Havoc 6 - Now Get Out of That - Yes it's repeating a trick with miners and builders but it's also a tricky level.
Havoc 11 - Welcome to the Party Pal - Yes the time limit is brutal and the building section in the middle is boring but I still like this level.
Havoc 15 - Have an Ice Day - I always find this level difficult every time I play it and I feel it should be included, easily a Rank 4 or 5

It's not many but I think there are some gems in this list.
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Offline namida

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Re: "Lemmings Redux": A "remake" of official games for NeoLemmix.
« Reply #48 on: March 30, 2016, 06:04:06 pm »
Quote
Wild 14 - Ice Spy - Just a good suggestion for Snow graphic sets which seem to be lacking in the levels already in.

Don't forget that there's a lot of Xmas set levels, which are practically Snow levels too. At any rate, I don't think we should worry too much about the graphic set - certianly, for the two levels on the list that have them (maybe more pending changes to the list), we can use Genesis remakes of ONML levels if there's too many brick levels which is a very real possibility since it's by far the most common set in ONML, but diversity of graphic sets should be fairly low on our priority list.
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Offline Proxima

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Re: "Lemmings Redux": A "remake" of official games for NeoLemmix.
« Reply #49 on: March 30, 2016, 06:09:56 pm »
Strong agreement on Crazy 16 and 19, these are excellent puzzles. I'm ambivalent towards most of the others on Flopsy's list -- they are not bad levels but not outstanding either, and we could add some of them back to get to a round number.

Offline bsmith

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Re: "Lemmings Redux": A "remake" of official games for NeoLemmix.
« Reply #50 on: March 30, 2016, 06:25:40 pm »
All the original levels I like all appear to be included in the compilation.

From Flopsy's list I also would want Crazy 16, Crazy 19, Wild 20 and Havoc 15.

Offline Flopsy

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Re: "Lemmings Redux": A "remake" of official games for NeoLemmix.
« Reply #51 on: March 30, 2016, 06:27:06 pm »
Well if we don't want to be adding levels for graphic set variety then disregard Wild 14 - Ice Spy

Still want to push Wicked 18 and Havoc 15 though because they are good levels in my opinion. Havoc 15 is a bit builder heavy but I feel it gives you just enough builders and the buried exit will catch new players out.

Happy there's strong agreement about Crazy 16 and 19 :D
Don't tell me solutions to levels which I have not solved.

Lemmings: Gotta Go Fast - My NEW (in development) Sonic tileset dedicated level pack :)
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Offline Proxima

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Re: "Lemmings Redux": A "remake" of official games for NeoLemmix.
« Reply #52 on: March 30, 2016, 07:20:58 pm »
Looking through the current list of retained Holiday levels, as I've said, this is a group of levels that's much lower-quality in general, and we could handily trim out most of them. I'll make two lists, firstly ones I feel strongly we should remove:

X92 03 "A Lemming Holiday" -- a Tame level, but much blander-looking than the actual Tame levels
H93 Flurry 05 "Christmas South of the Equator" -- same
H93 Flurry 12 "Presents of Mind" -- has a repeat, nothing interesting to the solution
H93 Blitz 04 "Santus Lemmingus" -- huge level, few actions, basically a simplified version of "Go for it!"
H93 Blitz 15 "The Needs of the Many..." -- essentially the same as Covox Tricky 2
H94 Frost 13 "2 Minutes before midnight" -- nothing to it, just build a landing platform
H94 Hail 12 "Merry Christmaze" -- annoying long level
H94 Hail 13 "Polar Expedition" -- same idea as "Poles Apart" but the steel makes this trivial
H94 Hail 14 "Rendezvous II" -- same idea as "Rendezvous at the Mountain" but much uglier

...then ones I would prefer to remove, but feel less strongly about:

H93 Blitz 08 "Presents of Mind II" -- still not very interesting, just multi-tasking widely separated lemmings
H93 Blitz 13 "The Final Frontier" -- just hold the crowd and build, we have enough levels like this
H94 Frost 04 "Separate Ways" -- another one where the main "difficulty" is multi-tasking
H94 Hail 05 "Get the Point?" -- mostly just building, though it does have some unique elements
H94 Hail 16 "Peak of Performance" -- assign one floater at the bottom to separate them. Okay, it's kind of nice to have a level showing new players this trick.

The other listed levels, I think we should keep.

Offline Proxima

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Re: "Lemmings Redux": A "remake" of official games for NeoLemmix.
« Reply #53 on: March 30, 2016, 09:13:42 pm »
Of the L2 Classic levels, the two I most want to include are Level 2, "Mr Lemmy Lives Next Door", and Level 3, "LEMTRIS".

Here are remakes of those two levels.

Also remade 1 to give myself more editor practice :)
« Last Edit: March 31, 2016, 01:09:55 am by Proxima »

Offline mobius

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Re: "Lemmings Redux": A "remake" of official games for NeoLemmix.
« Reply #54 on: March 31, 2016, 12:27:26 am »
in replay to the present poll [on We all fall down]
I think this answer depends on what other types of levels are included. If there are few or no other digger themed levels then included the Mayhem version might be better.* IF not, for example if levels like I am AT or Private room available are included I don't think it's necessary and would be too much of the same thing. Tedious levels should be few and far between.

*First time playing the Mayhem version I actually had a little fun solving it because it isn't as simple as it seems at first; or as the earlier versions [I'm pretty sure I skipped over the Taxing version however.] If you just make every lemming dig you'll run out of room and takes a little bit of thinking to realize what to do. But then, if the mayhem version is included I wouldn't include any others, only maybe the first one, if there's a level slot to spare which I doubt there will be.

Offline namida

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Re: "Lemmings Redux": A "remake" of official games for NeoLemmix.
« Reply #55 on: March 31, 2016, 04:13:47 am »
Quote
But then, if the mayhem version is included I wouldn't include any others, only maybe the first one, if there's a level slot to spare which I doubt there will be.

There will only be one version, if any at all.
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Offline Minim

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Re: "Lemmings Redux": A "remake" of official games for NeoLemmix.
« Reply #56 on: March 31, 2016, 11:13:09 am »
Earlier on in terms of which WAFD we should keep I think I initially said we should keep the Taxing version. Now I've changed my mind and voted against including the level.

I think we should stick with the idea of having 200 levels, split into 5 ranks of 40 levels.

I thought of another idea yesterday, and that is to order the levels based on the length of their solutions. To make sure they're from the same writer I used the Lemmings Encyclopedia. I discovered that Mayhem 5 had the longest solution from Original and Havoc 19 from OhNo.

So, taking a look at Flopsy's inclusions for ONML, that brings the total up to 205. Taking a look at Proxima's removal requests for Holiday,  the one I totally disagree on is Blitz 15. There's more to this level with some floaters (and fewer lemmings too) than the Covox version. Apart from that, I agree that we should at least remove Blitz 8, Frost 13, Hail 12, Hail 14 and X92 03; maybe more if we've actually made the decision to include some L2 Classic levels, but at least this keeps the total at 200 for now.
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Offline Proxima

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Re: "Lemmings Redux": A "remake" of official games for NeoLemmix.
« Reply #57 on: March 31, 2016, 01:14:43 pm »
It won't stay at 200; I'm going to go through all the other sets and suggest further removals. I just tackled Holiday first because the list of suggested removals would be the longest. At the moment, my target is to make suggestions for how we could get down to 150 or 160 levels -- though of course it's up to everyone else whether to agree with these.

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: "Lemmings Redux": A "remake" of official games for NeoLemmix.
« Reply #58 on: March 31, 2016, 03:20:25 pm »
40 level per rank is a bit much.  How about 6X30 = 180. A bit lower than 20 and not too many levels per rank which could be annoying to scroll through.

Offline RubiX

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Re: "Lemmings Redux": A "remake" of official games for NeoLemmix.
« Reply #59 on: March 31, 2016, 03:51:11 pm »
When I first got the Amiga, about 1992 It was a computer package called "Cartoon Classics"  (Amiga 500+)
Containing:

Lemmings
Captain Planet
Bart vs The Space Mutants
Deluxe Paint

There were a few levels in Lemmings that I have not seen since first playing through the game, it seems that they got removed from later versions of the original lemmings for some reason?  Cant remember all the names, except one of them which was in TRICKY [Lemming Lament] which I thought was a good map back then.   Anyone know of these levels I talk of, and can they be found and possibly added to the pack here?