[OLD] Player Bugs / Suggestions

[namida]

Alright, let's keep everything in one place. If you know of any bugs, or have any suggestions (note: only minor changes are likely to be considered at this point), for the NeoLemmix Player make them in this topic. In the case of bugs, be sure to mention which version (and game, if it only happens in one of them) it happened in; even better if you can attach a replay.

Things that may be worth reporting are any mechanics-related glitches, anything that causes a crash, or any levels that are impossible or disproportionately difficult to beat in their respective NeoLemmix players if the level is included in a player in the NeoLemmix update stream - if the issue is with a version of the level other than the included one (eg: the DOS version levels used directly in NeoLemmix) then that's simply an issue of the level not being made for NeoLemmix (or adjusted to fit it), and if it's someone's custom level, that's obviously something you'd have to take up with the level author.

Anything that's been struck out has been added (or fixed, in the case of bugs) for the next update. All bugs (but not suggestions) are ordered by most important first; this doesn't nessecerially mean they'll get fixed in that order though (especially if I plan to fix them all in the same update; I'll generally fix the easiest-to-fix ones first rather than the most serious).

Note: There will be no further updates to V1.xxn branch players, unless there are critical bugs. "Critical" means that something actually doesn't work, not that there's a behaviour that probably shouldn't happen as a result of a very obscure and specific setup and combination of skills / objects / gimmicks (though if an update is needed for the former reason, fixes of the latter type may possibly be applied at the same time).

Currently noted suggestions:
> Add an option to display total number of lemmings in level (minus those who have died / exited) for OUT, rather than only those that have already spawned
> Don't count zombies / ghosts in the lemming count on preview screen

Currently known high-priority bugs:
none

Currently known low-priority bugs:
> When cheat mode is used to access non-existant secret levels in NeoCustLemmix, they act like clones of the first levels of each rank
    This bug won't be relevant anymore in V2.00n, and doesn't affect gameplay, so won't be fixed.
> The first frame of a trap animation is skipped.
    This bug (which carried over from regular Lemmix) could open up a lot of backroutes if fixed. As such, I'm leaving it as is until V2.00n, at which point due to being a rewrite re-testing levels would be highly recommended anyway.

Levels that need checking:
H94 Frost 12 - Impossible in current version

[namida]

Question: Do people think it'd be worth having hints, and pre-level / post-level custom text screens? (In which case, I'd probably get rid of the hard-coded congrats screens as a post-level text on the last rank could be used instead)

Just for the record, these would almost certianly be unavailable for standalone (NeoCustLemmix) level packs since I don't want to make further modifications to the level format; but they'd be usable in Flexi packs (as they can just be a seperate file).

For hints, it'd be a matter of that the player has to specifically choose to see them.

[Wafflem]

That sounds like a great idea! How will the hints be displayed, though?

Also, how do pre-level and post-level custom text screens work? For post-level screen, would the text display be similar to how it was if a level had a Karoshi gimmick (i.e. the Karoshi post-screen text is different from the normal level post-screen text).

Another thing I remember you mentioning as I looked at the changelog: there was a feature of the save system of records of most lemmings saved, quickest time for completion and highest score in each level. Is there any way to have those displayed yet? I'm thinking these can be displayed in the level preview screen; you can press a button on the keyboard to have those displayed.

[namida]

The preview screen would stay as-is, it'd be a seperate screen before playing the level (probably only the first time, if you play the level more than once in a row). This could be used to, say, give a description of how things work in a tutorial level. The postview text would probably work similar to how the Congrats screen does; not sure yet if I'd display it before or after the normal results screen.

As for the hints, it'd probably be a matter of press a button (maybe H?) and a popup box with the hint appears.

[keiya]

There should probably be some sort of, like, warning or something before you get to A Task For (Blockers And) Bombers that there's major mechanical differences. That was very confusing and unpleasant.

(Also a version with Lemmix physics but the save feature would be nice but that's a little more of a request )

[namida]

I'm not planning to do further modifications on the traditional Lemmix verisons, sorry (unless there's important bugfixes particularly in Cust or Flexi).

[keiya]

Eh, it doesn't need to be pixel perfect, I just want a version that doesn't change gameplay in ways that change normal solutions in significant ways, that doesn't require me to write down passwords. (Think zdoom, not Chocolate Doom, if you're familiar with Doom source ports?)

Actually is source available? I could try to do it myself... and probably fail but learn something along the way.

[namida]

Source is available for traditional Lemmix. I haven't put a download link up for NeoLemmix source (as I'd rather wait until I'm not doing much more with it first), but it's available on request.

I can't say I'm very familiar with Doom at all, sorry.

If you don't want to write down passwords, you can use cheat code mode. You activate this by entering the game's cheat code on the password screen (for all traditional Lemmix players of official games, the code is "CHEATCODES"), then you can just choose a level by entering the rank name and level number (eg: TRICKY15). On the newer updates you can also use the rank number instead (eg: 0215).


With that being said, there are very few if any levels where NeoLemmix makes a major difference to the solution. The only ones I can think of off the top of my head are ones that use bombers (you no longer have to time them, you just assign them in the exact spot you want the lemming to explode rather than 5 seconds beforehand; but apart from this they're the same), and PSYCHO 23 from Lemmings Plus DOS Project (one of my own packs).


EDIT: The preview/postview text screens have been implemented. If you fail the level and play it again, it won't show the preview text a second time. It will if you go to a different level then come back.

[Wafflem]

As for the hints, it'd probably be a matter of press a button (maybe H?) and a popup box with the hint appears.

Will it also be possible to have more than one hint in a level?

[namida]

As for the hints, it'd probably be a matter of press a button (maybe H?) and a popup box with the hint appears.

Will it also be possible to have more than one hint in a level?

Should be possible. I haven't implemented the hints system at all yet, so it's still somewhat open as to exactly how it'll be done. I have implemented the pre/post-level text system; take a look at the update I posted for Lemmings Plus Omega to see how it works. There's pre-text on Breezy 1 through 8 and Playtime 1, and post-text on Breezy 8, Mental 30 and Playtime 15.

[namida]

Can strike one off the list here:

> Documenting the VGASPEC format on the website

This has now been done. This means that information on all file formats used by NeoLemmix is now available on the website (except for the save file and the encryption scheme, I don't plan to document those. And, of course, general file formats such as OGG aren't explained there either).

I've also removed a few from the list that I don't see myself as likely to do, either due to difficulty of implementing them or lack of usefulness for them.

[Wafflem]

Saw the pre-screen / post-screen texts; great job! This is something that also would have worked very well with Lemmings Plus III, Holiday Lemmings Plus and Lemmings Plus Flashbacks.

NeoLemmix:

• The locked exit should make an opening sound when all buttons are pressed. Perhaps the same sound as the opening trapdoor?
• Is there a way to display your score while playing a level? I'm thinking that this can be done by pressing a button on the keyboard, which will then display the score by replacing the Out/In and Timer parts?
• The Xmas style needs the slowfreeze object (and maybe the one-way arrows).
• Should the styles from Lemmings 2: The Tribes and All New World of Lemmings also be included, since I believe there are levels out there that use these styles (like Lemmini)? This should be possible since 32-color and full-color graphic sets are now supported.

LPII Neo:
I know that this isn't the official version of LPII, but should Cheeky 8 be moved to a later rank? I'm thinking it should be Cheeky 8 --> Genius 16 --> Cunning 19 --> Cheeky 8.

NeoCustLemmix:
Since the New Skills Tutorial Pack can only be accessed if there are no existing levelpacks, there should be something like an “erase to default” button to be able to play the NeoLemmix Tutorial Pack.

[namida]

NeoLemmix:
- Locked Exit sound: Not a bad idea. I'll make a note of this.
- Display Score: The main problem with this is that the score isn't finalised until the end of the level; there's also the fact that it counts down instead of up (ie: you start at the maximum possible, and lose points based on various factors). In particular, points lost for unsaved lemmings are not applied until the level ends.
- Xmas Style: I don't plan to make any further modifications to existing styles, except to fix issues (such as the graphical fix for the Desert style in V1.26n-C).
- L2 / L3 Styles: I'm not going to port them; but if someone else does, I'm happy to include them by default with the editor / Cust / Flexi.

LPII Neo:
- I'm not making any changes to the level ordering. I don't want different orders between the Traditional and Neo versions, and while I do agree Cheeky 8 should've been in a later position (though my preference would be a direct swap with Cunning 19, leaving Genius 16 where it is), LPII has been around far too long to start making those kind of changes now.

NeoCustLemmix:
- You can point it to a level pack that doesn't exist, or to an actual DAT pack of the tutorial levels. There's a copy of the tutorial pack included with it in the DropBox download links; I'll add a download of it to the website too.


EDIT: Regarding preview/postview texts; I've added quite a few of them to the NeoLemmix update stream versions of LPII, LPIIB, LPIII and LPIIIB. There's also two of them in Orig as well (not including the Congrats screen).

[Wafflem]

There seems to be a glitch in Test Mode the Lab style.

I've placed the one way arrows on a wall, but when I play in Test mode, they seem to have disappeared.

[namida]

Make sure you click the "One-Way" attribute on the terrain piece info. Only pieces with this flag set will accept one-way walls.

Alternatively, if you choose "One-Way Invert" in the level properties, this is inverted, and only pieces *without* this flag set will accept one-way walls. This is more in line with traditional Lemmings behaviour.

Just for reference; you don't need to set the "Only On Terrain" attribute for one-way walls anymore (though you still can). The player automatically applies that attribute to any one-way walls.

[Wafflem]

Thanks, I should have noticed that.

Another thing I forgot to mention: there is no option for Zombies, Clock and Rising Water in the NeoCustLemmix configuration screen.

[namida]

It wouldn't be very useful to have those options - all three of them need to be configured in the level's layout too, not just have a gimmick flag set. Nonetheless, I'll be sure to add them for completeness's sake.

EDIT: Actually, I thought of one case where it is useful - to avoid erasing these gimmicks on levels that usually use them.

[Wafflem]

If the Invincibility and Zombie gimmicks are combined, the normal lemmings still turn into Zombies. Is this intended behavior?

Player suggestion: during gameplay, if you have a level with a lot of teleporters and receivers, I was thinking you could make it so that if you click on a teleporter, it will show you what receiver it goes to.

[namida]

Hm. Indeed, I would like to have that labelled *somehow*. I don't know if that's the best approach to it though...

As for Invincibility vs Zombies, no, I hadn't considered how they interact, and you're right, Invincibility should prevent infection.

[Wafflem]

> Play a sound when a locked exit opens This will be in V1.27n-C

Just thought of something: what if the level solely has the locked exit, but no buttons? Will the exit play the sound as soon as the level starts?

[namida]

Nope. It's played when a button is pushed if that button is the last one remaining. If the level has no buttons at all, the exit is never locked, but is unlocked right from the start.

[Wafflem]

Hm. Indeed, I would like to have [the teleporters and receivers] labelled *somehow*. I don't know if that's the best approach to it though...

I thought of one way. I'm thinking they can be labelled through saving an image of the level.

[Wafflem]

Another glitch I've noticed while playing Doomsday Lemmings.

It seems there are "-1" Lemmings in some levels. This occurs mostly when I press "B" to go back.

[namida]

Have you found any other circumstances where it happens?

During development of the V1.27n-C upgrade, that happened all the time, but I thought I had ironed it out by release time...

[Wafflem]

One other time it has happened would be during the very first gameplay frame of the level.

When I start the level and hit 'P' immediately as the level opens up, it shows the "-1".

It may also be possible that the -1 comes from the pre-placed zombies.

[Wafflem]

In test mode of NeoCustLemmixNeo, it seems that even with the Classic Zombies gimmick on and setting the pre-placed lemmings and trapdoors' S values to 64, they still come out as regular lemmings.

This doesn't happen with the regular Zombies gimmick.

[namida]

In test mode of NeoCustLemmixNeo, it seems that even with the Classic Zombies gimmick on and setting the pre-placed lemmings and trapdoors' S values to 64, they still come out as regular lemmings.

This doesn't happen with the regular Zombies gimmick.

You need to enable both "Zombies" and "Classic Zombies".

[GigaLem]

My browser thinks that there is some malicious when i tried to download Neolemmix
Edit: nevermind i went to the neolemmix website i tried to download neolemmix from dropbox becuase of a post in the neolemmix section
Edit2: where is Testplayer.exe? becuase neolemmix thinks i don't have it

[namida]

To get test mode working, what you need to do is put a copy of NeoCustLemmix (or regular CustLemmix, if you're editing traditional Lemmix levels) in the same folder as the editor.

[GigaLem]

Where do i find Neocustlemmix becuase the dropbox version said there was malware in it (acording to google chrome)

[namida]

I can guarantee there isn't, but Chrome tends to be fussy. Try the NeoLemmix website download link:

http://www.neolemmix.com/old/neolemmix/CustLemmixNeo.exe

[GigaLem]

It gives me an Shellexecute fout 5 error when i try to make a level

[namida]

Hm, you're not the first person to report this problem with newer versions. DynaLem had this issue too, but said it went away when he made sure he had the latest version of both NeoCustLemmix and the NeoLemmix Editor - though I'm not sure why this would make a difference as every version (except the ones before this feature was added) implement it in exactly the same way.

I'm going to have to look into this more. If anyone is having this problem, can you let me know:
- What version of NeoLemmix Editor you're using
- What version of NeoCustLemmix (or regular CustLemmix, as the case may be) you're using
- What style of levels you're editing (eg. CustLemmix, NeoCustLemmix - basically, what "game" are you choosing from the editor's menu when making the level)

Some possible fixes:
- Though I don't see why this would matter, DynaLem said the problem went away for him when he updated to the latest version of both
- Make sure you have NeoCustLemmix if testing a NeoLemmix level, and regular CustLemmix if testing a standard Lemmix level
- Try running the editor as an Administrator, or putting it in a folder that doesn't need admin or specific-user priveleges to access

If all else fails, a workaround:
1. Save the level as 0101.lvl
2. Boot NeoCustLemmix directly
3. On the title screen, press F3 to go into the settings menu, and turn Look For LVL Files on (you only have to do this once, not every time)
4. Play the first level of Step 1, this should be your level you want to test

You can also do this with regular CustLemmix (though the settings menu key is F4 in regular CustLemmix), but only if you're using Orig or CustLemmix style; this is due to the numbering of the graphic sets. (In the recent versions of NeoLemmix, it has a way of determining the graphic set that isn't just dependant on a number.)

[GigaLem]

1.NeoLemmixeditor V28n-A
2.The one that you linked me to yesterday
3.I Selected NeoCustLemmings to make a level
Edit: did the or else fails and everything's a go

[namida]

Okay, I'll have to look more into this error as a lot of people are getting it.

Anyway, between this and your levels, I've realised (and I don't know how I didn't think of this sooner) that really, NeoCustLemmix is missing one very important feature that Lemmini and SuperLemmini have - the ability to load a single LVL file, without having to use LookForLVLFiles as a workaround. It'd probably be a bit of work to implement this (not too much though), but if there's interest, I'd be happy to implement it.

EDIT: Actually, it wasn't that difficult as most of the code used for Test Mode could also apply to single level mode.

[Wafflem]

Found something interesting.

When I use a Stoner while the Unalterable Terrain gimmick is on, the lemming still turns into stone. Since the stone lemming counts as terrain, shouldn't the lemming just simply disappear instead of turning into stone with that gimmick on (like how the builders' steps disappear while building)?

[namida]

Indeed it should. I'll make sure to fix that in the next update.

[GigaLem]

If you decide to make a few new skills here is what i have
Hanger - Climbs on ceilings
Dropper - Drops from ceilings
Timed bomber - Works like a classic bomber but with a bigger blast
Excavator - Mines upwards
Wall jumper - jumps on wall and off walls
Engineer - Makes a Rope machine that you could aim in 16 directions and fire
Bomb thrower - Throws a bomb at an angle and blast a hole in the terrain

[namida]

I'm not planning to add any more skills. There's a topic in the General Discussion board about possible new skills; you might want to post these there, in case someone working on another clone sees them there and thinks "hey, that's actually a pretty neat idea". Thanks for the suggestions though.

[Wafflem]

Looks like there's a Mechanic Glitch.

I'm making a Brick level for my third pack, and it seems that despite the mechanics destroying the wheel trap on the left they still continue to destroy it. Every mechanic that approaches the trap destroys it. Attached is a level illustrating this.

I've pre-assigned the trapdoor so that mechanics come out of it.

[namida]

The reason this happens is a simple oversight by me when coding the Mechanic skill; it's because mechanics' removal of trigger areas doesn't take into account the flipping of the object. I'll make sure to fix that in the next update.

[Wafflem]

Pre-placed blocker glitch.

Even with the No Gravity gimmick on, the pre-placed blocker still winds up on the bottom of the screen. Attached are images illustrating this.

[namida]

This is meant to happen under normal conditions (the blocker is moved down until it's standing on something), but indeed it shouldn't when the No Gravity gimmick is in effect. I'll make sure to fix that one too.

[Wafflem]

Just to be sure:

With the Single Skill gimmick on, if I use a cloner on the lemming, the regular lemming cannot be used again, but the cloned lemming is still able to be assigned a skill. Is this an intended behavior?

[namida]

Hm, that's a good point. Technically, by the time the clone exists, a skill *has* been assigned to the source lemming.

[Wafflem]

Another gimmick combination that does not go very well together: Invincibility + Karoshi, due to that lemmings cannot die in any way, and falling down the abyss does not count as killed.

Should you make it so one of the gimmicks is ignored, much like you did with Vertical Wrap and Solid Floor?

[namida]

The invincibility "gimmick" is more meant for testing purposes than anything else, so no. Also, I can think of one way to make a level that's possible to beat with that combination...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

By having a 0% save requirement.

[GigaLem]

For any future you think there could a different kind of contest that can allow all sorts of levels to enter
for example
Pillar trophy - 1st place
Metal trophy - 2nd place
Bubble trophy - 3rd place
Special trophy - Best new special level
Painter trophy - Best level art
Doomsday trophy - Best doomsday lemmings level
Gimmick trophy - best level that uses a gimmick
Ozone friendly lemmings trophy - Most improved level from the last contest

[namida]

This isn't really the place to ask about that as it's not specifically related to NeoLemmix (indeed, it's even possible there may be some contests where NeoLemmix levels aren't accepted; the rules vary from contest to contest); questions relating to contests should be on the contests board. But to answer your question, I don't plan to run official contests with more than two prizes at the moment - indeed, due to the low number of entries, I may even reduce it to prizes for first place only in the future (but we'll see). However, other users are more than welcome to run contests of their own (whether just-for-fun or involving prizes) on the contests board, so if you'd like to do one - and you're sure you have the patience to stick around and see it through - you could do so. I must say though, that sounds a bit overly complicated. The official contests stick to a single theme, rather than awarding various types of levels.

[GigaLem]

I just didn't where else to say it but i would to see it happen with website and everything
i can tell you the other trophy ideas on another thread if you want

[Wafflem]

In my opinion, it feels kind of a hassle to open up the (Neo)CustLemmix player then change the Test Mode Style (pre/postview screen, No Preview, etc.) in the configuration menu. Is it possible to make it so you can change Test Mode Style from the editor?

[namida]

Yes; in fact that's something I've been meaning to do but keep forgetting.

[Wafflem]

Unfortunately, I have found another glider glitch.

If a glider falls down in a 1-pixel area, the lemming bounces but refuses to glide down. Attached is a test level to illustrate this.

The pre-placed lemming is an Athlete (Climber+Glider).

[Wafflem]

Even with the Invincibility gimmick on, Lemmings can still die when they become stoners. Is this an intended behavior?

[namida]

Nope, I'll add that to the list. Thanks for finding all these.

[Ben H]

I would love to see a unified player engine, that was able to run all NeoLemmix packs.
That way there wouldn't be 10+ different exe files for all of the players.

This would make it take up less space on my hard drive.
Also it would also make it easier for you because any changes to the engine would update all players, without each of them requiring a recompile (and re-download for the end user).

Perhaps you could make them selectable via a menu option (like super/lemmini does), or maybe have a really cool start screen (with little icons) which lets you select which pack you want to play?

[namida]

That is something I could consider once it reaches an absolute-final state, which probably isn't too far away. Until then, one problem is that sometimes formats or other things change between players - most significantly between V1.14n->V1.15n and V1.28n->V1.29n, in both cases of which earlier version MAIN.DAT files wouldn't be compatible with newer ones. Of course, I'd have to think of (but this shouldn't be too hard) how to handle some stuff that's hardcoded for specific players - for example, one of the secret level's codes in Lemmings Plus III bonus pack has a hard-coded code, unlike all other codes that are algorithmically generated.

[Wafflem]

Another glitch:

If I have a pre-placed lemming at the very bottom of the screen, I get this error:

Access violation at address 008676D9 in module
'CustLemmixNeo.exe'. Read of address 04EB2330

[namida]

Preview screen, or only when you start the level? If it's the former, I think I know why this is happening.

[Wafflem]

It is the former.

[Wafflem]

Okay, found some Rising Water glitches when combined with the Invincibility gimmick. I've also used Solid Floor, but that gimmick may have nothng to do with it.

A lemming can destroy the rising water by bashing/mining/digging it.

Also, lemmings cannot bomb and destroy terrain once they are in the water.

Another thing: swimming lemmings are unable to exit once the rising water covers the exit. I've attached a level to illustrate this.

[namida]

Swimmers don't destroy terrain if bombed while swimming. And indeed, it's mentioned that allowing lemmings to get below the water line can cause graphical glitches. Still, I'll see what I can do about that.

[Wafflem]

Going back to discussion on recreating the L2 Classic Levels for the Extra Player. It should be possible to convert the L2 Classic levels to VGASPECs to save the hassle of recreating them from scratch. All you need all the level maps by PacGuy765/Prince Jamie the 7th in this link, which is found in this video.

[namida]

That's possible. However, thinking about it now, I'm not sure if doing the L2 levels like that is pushing things too far for the Extra player. I'm not even sure, in all honesty, that the PSP levels should be in there (but I won't remove them now).

On the other hand, simply making them as a NeoCustLemmix pack might be a more worthwhile option.

[Wafflem]

Hardworkers glitch: a lemming bashing in thin air (i.e. no terrain around them) still creates destruction particles.

[namida]

Not really a glitch. That's just because the destruction particles are part of the basher sprite; this is true for miners and diggers as well (but not bombers, where the particles are created seperately). You might also notice that the exact same particles are created regardless of how much terrain they do or don't destroy, and that they're always (within the same graphic set) the same color again regardless of the terrain destroyed.

[GigaLem]

For some reason im using the genesis crystal set
for another level but when i test in customized lemmings
it uses the original palette

[namida]

Could you post the level (or PM it to me)?

[GigaLem]

Okay here it is

[namida]

Okay, thanks for pointing this out. I've tracked it down to some fairly major issues with how the editor is saving the style names. The style numbers seem to be saved fine, so don't worry, there's nothing major going to be lost. At most, any levels using the "Pillar Genesis" or "Crystal Genesis" styles (the other three genesis styles shouldn't be affected) may switch to the regular versions of these styles and/or vice versa, and need to be manually changed back.

Please watch the Editor bugs/etc topic for updates on this, since I can confirm this problem is with the editor, not the player.

[Wafflem]

Found a swimmer glitch: when a lemming swims in water and picks a pickup skill in the middle of swimming, the lemming briefly becomes a faller before swimming again. Attached is a test level; the pre-placed lemming is a swimmer.

[namida]

I can tell you now exactly why that's happening - it's related to the trigger area overwrite issues in original Lemmix / DOS (for example, how a trap's trigger area, or a blocker, could cancel out steel). In NeoLemmix, this is somewhat avoided by having four seperate planes of trigger areas, but this can still result in overlap between trigger types on the same plane. I might move pickup skills to a different one...

For reference, the four planes are:

Plane 1 - Zombies (and nothing else)
Plane 2 - Steel and one-way arrows
Plane 3 - Blocker fields
Plane 4 - Everything else

I don't want to add too many planes, as it could eventually have performance impacts (especially on larger maps), so I might see if there's some other workaround for this I can come up with.

[Nepster]

Not really a bug, but just to notify you about the following behaviour of miners and one-way-walls: When mining in the wrong direction of a one-way-wall at a slight increase, the lemming moves for one frame one pixel into terrain. Under very specific circumstances, this can be exploited: The solution to the attached level requires abusing this behaviour.
I am using V1.30A for both the editor and the player.

[GigaLem]

I had this idea of giving the ONML tilesets the genesis palette
(more on that when i finish editing the images) when i show it i hope we can make the Genesis styled tileset happen
when i can i'll edit this post or quote it to show what it might look like

[namida]

Nepster: I'll look into that shortly.
Giga: Feel free, though don't expect it to be included as an "official" tileset. (I'll be more than happy to list it as a fanmade tileset, though.) You shouldn't actually need to edit the images manually for this - you could just use LemSet to extract the ONML styles, and directly edit their "palette.bmp" file. This is true for any graphic set which uses palette-based colors (which at the moment, is all graphic sets that aren't Cheapo conversions, except the Horror style).

EDIT:
Okay, I looked at that miner issue. The trick used in the bottom half (repeated miners to turn a 2:1 angle into a 1:1) isn't something I'd consider glitchy, but the trick used in the top half clearly is. I'll see what can be done about that...

[namida]

I also finally looked more into the config screen flicker, and depsite trying some insanely complex things that didn't work at first, the actual fix turned out to be as simple as one line of code that should've been run only when the screen is first generated, rather than every time an option is changed. xD So that'll finally be fixed in the next update.

[namida]

Along the same lines as is currently being discussed for Lix:

Would anyone like to have a fixed (probably user-configurable in later versions, but fixed for now) set of keys where "key X = skill X", rather than "key X = the Xth skill on the skill panel"? This should be very simple to implement if people want it; the biggest difficulty is likely to be deciding which keys to map them to.

These could either exist alongside the current positional ones, or as a config menu option to switch between them. In the latter case, one possibility may be to match F3 to F10 to how they are in traditional Lemmix, and 1 to 8 (or perhaps 3 to 0 would be more comfortable) to the eight new skills. This would mean needing to remap 5 (the skip level button when cheat mode is active) to a different key, but that's not an overly major issue.

[Nepster]

I would use the option "key X = skill X" if available. But you don't have to include it just for me. At some point even I might learn to use the current system .

If you include it, I would suggest either:
- Copying the traditional Lemmix hotkeys (as in your post) or
- Waiting for Simon to come up with a final version for Lix and using the same for NeoLemmix.

[Simon]

Even if what I'll be cooking up is justifiable by objective arguments, nobody will be used to it yet. >_> I haven't even tried it seriously myself, expect changes. I'm unhappy with builder on pinky finger.

And Neolemmix has other skills, with other skill usage statistics. The key in-between the directional force keys is precious, that must get a very common skill.

Making things remappable requires time, assuming the application isn't written with that in mind yet. Once some keys are remappable, all of them should be remappable. Every single key. Escape is a key. :-)

Making things remappable is the correct goal.

Neolemmix can generate standalone executables. How would those handle custom keybindings?

-- Simon

[Nepster]

Even if what I'll be cooking up is justifiable by objective arguments, nobody will be used to it yet. ... And Neolemmix has other skills, with other skill usage statistics.

Apart from the missing jumper, the most common skills are more or less the same and once your key system is implemented as the default in Lix, people will hopefully start getting used to it.
As NeoLemmix does not feature multi-player, fast skill selection is not of overwhelming importance. Therefore other arguments may be taken into consideration as well, like making it easy for Lix players to adapt to NeoLemmix and vice versa.

[namida]

At the moment, each seperate EXE has a seperate configuration (it's stored in their save files, which are not compatible between different player EXEs).

I don't know how much overlap there is between other skills, but from what I've heard, the Walker and Platformer are the same in NeoLemmix as they are in Lix, and the Stoner is like a... Cuber, was it? It basically turns the lemming into terrain; with one difference that has been pointed out being that the NeoLemmix ones can be used in mid-air.

The other skills (for those who aren't familiar) are Swimmer (self-explanatory), Glider (basically, "diagonal floater"), Mechanic (disables traps; permanent skill), Stacker (like the L2 one, but creates the stack in front of the lemming, rather than below it) and Cloner (duplicates the lemming, with the clone being identical except facing the opposite direction).

[namida]

From the next update (V1.30n-D or V1.31n, whichever it ends up being), the default setting will be fixed keys. For this, F3 to F10 will match the layout for DOS / traditional Lemmix (ie: F3 = Climber, F4 = Floater, ... F10 = Digger), while the number keys 3 to 0 will be used for the new 8 skills (3 = Walker, 4 = Swimmer, 5 = Glider, 6 = Mechanic, 7 = Stoner, 8 = Platformer, 9 = Stacker, 0 = Cloner). There'll be an option in the Config menu to use the positional keys instead (F3 = first skill on the panel, F4 = second skill, F5 = third, etc, rather than the keys corresponding to specific skills).

[Nepster]

Here are two issues that came up while playing GigaLems:
1) I solved Hot 2 and then wanted to replay it again, because I realized that a simpler solution should work as well. But unfortunately I did not write down the password and each time when I restarted GigaLems and tried to play a Hot level, it jumped to Hot 3 (the first non-solved one). So apart from deleting the .sav-file, I could not see any way to play Hot 2 again?
2) I had Auto-Save replays on. But it seems to me, that Auto-Save saves a replay each time one quits a level. So now I have quite a bunch of useless replays doing nothing, because I quit the level right at the beginning to check save requirements/number of lemmings/... again! I think it would be much more convenient, if Auto-Save only saves a replay, if one has actually solved the level. In the rare cases where one actually wants a replay of a non-successful try, one can still save it by hand, no?

[mobius]

I have a suggestion for the future:

-"dummy lemmings" -basically, sort of like zombie lemmings but they don't infect other lemmings and can exit and count as saved.

-lemmings which can only be assigned a preset number of skills. This number would have to be labeled somehow maybe on or above the lemming

yeah didn't realize this already sort of existed with single skill gimmick. I only started looking at NeoLemmix closely

these suggestions are inspired from the challenges. My favorite challenges in the challenges topic, by far, was 1 skill per lemming and skills on only 1 lem. They made for some real interesting puzzle solving.

there was also the no-turn challenge; but that's an odd one to implement in actual gameplay

[mobius]

I realize this was a poll you asked way back but; I'm in favor of hints.

Sorry for asking more dumb questions but I couldn't find an answer to this; does NeoLemmix player currently support playing MOD music files? If not what kind of files are usable?

[namida]

I realize this was a poll you asked way back but; I'm in favor of hints.

Sorry for asking more dumb questions but I couldn't find an answer to this; does NeoLemmix player currently support playing MOD music files? If not what kind of files are usable?

Yes, MOD files are supported. You'll need to rename them to have an "IT" extension, but apart from that they work perfectly fine. The same is true of any other similar tracker format (such as XM).

Aside from that, it also supports OGG, and can make use of the "LOOPSTART" and "LOOPLENGTH" metainfo tags.

Other formats are not "officially" supported, but may be usable by renaming them to have an OGG or IT extension - all really depends on whether the underlying library (Bass) can play them.

[mobius]

  thanks a lot.

I have a new question/suggestion.
Is there currently a way of notifying the player ahead of time when a level has a gimmick? I realize part of the gimmick "gimmick" [haha] is it's a surprise to the player. But in certain situations it would be better/nice to have something like a message in the title screen. I intend to use some of the gimmicks as proper puzzle elements and it might be annoying to the player if they struggle to understand why a certain gimmick is happening [having no warning]. Sorry if this was discussed before, as you probably know I haven't followed the forum the past few months.

1 other minor suggestion; Enable an option to set a maximum RR. For example the RR starts at 1 and you can't go above 50. This has some implications [like not being able to squeeze the crowd through a trap]

[namida]

You can add a pre-play text to any level, which will be displayed between the usual preview screen and actual gameplay. (For example, see any gimmick level in Lemmings Plus II, or any of the training levels in Lemmings Plus Omega). To do this, create a text file titled "iXXXX.txt", where XXXX is the rank number and level number, eg i0101.txt for Fun 1.

For post-level texts, it's the same, but pXXXX.txt instead of iXXXX.txt.

Each line in these files may be up to 40 characters long, and you can have up to 18 lines.


Some kind of notification on the preview screen that gimmicks are in effect is a feature I was going to do at one point, but never got around to. At this point, since I plan to overhaul the menus at some point (though your guess is as good as mine as to when this'll happen), I probably won't add such a feature before then.

[Simon]

I was browsing through the player source for fun yesterday. Some older ideas came to me in IRC:

• Display the initial count and save requirement during game. These are very important values, much more important than the in/out count. Most players mentally track the small number of lems killed. I don't care how it's done in detail, one idea is OUT: <out>/<initial> IN: <in>/<required>. There's enough space even with the humongous green font.
  
• Don't display leading zeroes in the skillbar, making it easier to glance over. Don't display 0 or 00 on depleted skills; display the white box like L1 did, or even better, leave the field black.
  

namida and I talked about whether Neolemmix would benefit from being open-sourced. I suggested it because ccx has already written patches to Eric's Lemmix, and many people follow these bug/suggestions topics. namida observed how the project would only compile in Delphi 6/7 from 2001/2002, which would severly limit the source code's audience. Entire discussion from IRC.

-- Simon
When I find my code in tons of trouble, // Friends and colleagues come to me, // Speaking words of Wisdom: // "Write in C."

[namida]

Leading zeros in the skillbar can actually be disabled, but this is a graphical setting in the pack's options, not a user-configurable thing. For example, see Lemmings Plus III (or it's bonus pack) or Lemmings Plus Omega.

[Simon]

This leads to another design question. Suppose many users agree with a suggestion. Then, to make the fix globally avaiable, we'd have to get all pack designers to recompile the monolithic executables. There is no DLL with the common player functionality that's easily replaced, or a single updatable executable that runs the packs as data.

We'll probably have to live with the current way. From what I understood yesterday, you want to grant pack designers a ton of functionality without support from your main build.

-- Simon

[Wafflem]

Small suggestion: two separate options to show particles. One option is for stoners, one option is for bombers.

I don't really like the particles on the stoner, but they are fine on the bombers.

[namida]

Further testing on the bomber asymmetry shows that it only seems to happen when a *climber* is bombed. Or at any rate, it doesn't happen for a walker. I'll test other skills too, now...

Further testing again suggests it happens when climbing, as well as any state when an "Oh no" doesn't happen (but apart from climbing, it seems to never occur in states where oh no's do happen).

EDIT: Further testing *again* suggests the bomber mask, not the placement of the explosion, may be the issue, as it actually looks like I was wrong in comparing the lemming's states on a constant position; what I should've been testing is the results from opposite sides of an obstacle.

[mobius]

I like that you changed the color of the arrows in the snow set. Red is much easier to see and looks nicer. It would be nice if the arrows in the some of the other sets were changed as well. I suggest black or some other dark color for pillar, red for bubble, brown for rock [like lemmini's].
While the white of brick looks fine, I quite like the yellow color in Superlemmini. [Don't know why that was changed, I assume it was a preference].
Don't change the crystal ones though, I think everybody likes those.

You can add a pre-play text to any level, which will be displayed between the usual preview screen and actual gameplay. (For example, see any gimmick level in Lemmings Plus II, or any of the training levels in Lemmings Plus Omega). To do this, create a text file titled "iXXXX.txt", where XXXX is the rank number and level number, eg i0101.txt for Fun 1.

For post-level texts, it's the same, but pXXXX.txt instead of iXXXX.txt.

Each line in these files may be up to 40 characters long, and you can have up to 18 lines.

does that include spaces?

[namida]

It includes spaces, but not newlines.

Longer texts won't cause crashes or anything; they just won't fit on the screen (in the case of >40 characters per line) or the extra will be ignored altogether (in the case of >18 lines).

[PIGSgrame]

There seems to be a bug in the current version (1.30n-D) of the Oh No! MORE Lemmings Neo player: When I try to start Wicked 2 (Introducing SUPERLEMMING), the following error message shows up, then the program quits.

[namida]

Are you by any chance trying to use the music pack from the (non-Neo) ONML Lemmix player with it? Doing so won't work on that level as it doesn't contain the different track used in levels that have SuperLemming and/or Frenzy set.

You can get the NeoLemmix version music packs here (and these will generally work fine with the non-Neo players too, though Extra's one might have a few tracks mixed up):

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/3mb76lxwm6s5fv3/AABH3m5mbgATRZCk9NQvtMQWa?dl=0

[PIGSgrame]

Yes, I actually did use the non-Neo music pack, didn't know there was a difference. I installed the Neo music pack and now the level works fine. Thanks!

[namida]

Basically what it comes down to is that there's special types of levels that NeoLemmix supports, called "Frenzy" and "Gimmick" levels. The former disables pausing; the latter adds twists to the mechanics. On these levels, different musics play; additionally, SuperLemming levels also play the Frenzy music. Since regular Lemmix doesn't support such features, the musics for such aren't included in its music packs. Thus, when you try to play Wicked 2 (which is a SuperLemming level, as the name suggests) with a regular Lemmix music pack, it crashes because it can't find the Frenzy music.

(The "Extra levels" player, I think the musics are also in a slightly different order in the regular Lemmix version than they are in the NeoLemmix version, so while it'll work, you might get special graphics level musics on regular levels and vice versa.)

[Wafflem]

Minor bug:

If I have a level where the save requirement is over 100%, and I press '1' to cheat the level, it simply says "Press mouse button to continue" on the bottom of the Congrats screen instead of saying "press left mouse to continue, right click for main menu"

This is in NeoCustLemmix (but this bug may affect all players).

[namida]

It's known that cheat mode can do some weird things on levels with save requirements over 100%. The skip-level button is most likely going to be removed in a near-future update (since from the next version, the cheat code unlocks all levels anyway), so I see little point in fixing such a minor issue relating to it.

Also, just a tip - use PNG rather than BMPs for large-size image attachments, as it results in much smaller files without any loss of quality.

[Wafflem]

Thanks. I thought I saved the file as a PNG, though.

So for example, if I type 'IMACHEATER' in Lemmings Plus Flashbacks, all levels in LPF are unlocked?

[namida]

Not currently; but that is how it'll work from the next version onwards.

[PIGSgrame]

I noticed an unexpected difference between the Neo and non-Neo version of the Holiday Lemmings Player in Level Hail 3 (And a happy new year!). I'm not exactly sure what the problem is, but it may be related to the small piece of ground missing below the exit in both versions:


In the non-Neo player (tested with V28), the Lemmings enter the exit when they approach it from the left, which is the behaviour I remember from the DOS version. In the Neo player (tested with 1.30n-D), they walk past it and will only enter if you build additional stairs. Is this difference intentional?

[namida]

Nope; all exits should be enterable from the ground (with the obvious exception of midair exits in Sky graphic set levels, but that's only relevant in fanmade levels as the Sky set is a custom one originating from Lemmings Plus III). I'll look into this tomorrow and make sure it's fixed for the next update; thanks for letting me know.

[Wafflem]

If I do a mass level image dump in a NeoCustLemmix pack that has only 10 levels, it gives me a "List index out of bounds (10)".

[namida]

This is an issue I was aware of a long time ago, but forgot to fix. Added to the bug list.

[GigaLem]

I have the same problem with this level i want to bring back "Texas Chainsaw Bomber"

[namida]

What are you talking about?

[Wafflem]

Two graphical glitches:

1. In Doomsday Lemmings, there seems to be a tiny blue dot in the word "It's", next to the 't', in the pre-level screen. I've circled it in the screenshot below. Not sure if this affects all players.

2. The Sega style has some graphical glitches that leave the lemming looking like they are bashing on thin air; I've attached a screenshot to illustrate this. It may be too much trouble to get that fixed though, as that may affect many levels using the Sega style.

[namida]

I could probably recolor the black pixels to a dark gray instead; the main reason they're black at the moment is because that's how it was in the actual Master System version of Lemmings.

As for the blue dot; there's a few letters in the font actually that have odd things. That's not a player glitch but rather the actual graphic of the letters in MAIN.DAT; the letters haven't been altered in any way as far back as the very original DOS Lemmings (though it is possible that DOS had some code that modifies how they're drawn, that isn't reproduced in Lemmix).

[GigaLem]

What are you talking about?

The Out of Bounds error

[namida]

Can you send me a copy of the level?

[GigaLem]

here it is

[namida]

There was a terrain piece with the ID number #82 in the level, which is well above the highest piece in the Fire set (#63), as well as very far outside of the level's boundary (it had an X coordinate of 4078; that's nearly three times the level's width) - the former is the cause of the error; the latter is just sort of a confirmation that this piece wasn't meant to be there or do anything. This could've been either due to a corrupted file or careless manual editing (particularly if it was in Lemmini format at one point), but regardless, here's a fixed version which removes that terrain piece (nothing else is altered).

[PIGSgrame]

There seems to be a problem with the save falling distance in Copycat Lemmings (tested on 1.31n): In Mayhem 9 (Essentially the same), they survive the fall from the upper platform, allowing them to just walk into the exit without the need of even one bash.

[namida]

Okay, I looked into this and compared it pretty intensely with both genuine Copycat Lemmings, and with Cheapo (using the same level), and found the problem - the safe fall distance is 3 pixels more than it should be when Cheapo Mode is active.

Will fix that for the next update. Would like to wait a bit longer before actually *doing* a "next update" though, because it's almost inevitable that some bugs will pop up with this version, seeing as it's one of the most major changes (even if 95% of it is behind-the-scenes stuff) in quite some time.

[PIGSgrame]

Will fix that for the next update.

Thanks!

I found another small issue, but I'm not sure if it's bug or feature: When you start any Neo player and directly go to the game (i.e. without selecting a rank first), you will always start in level 1 of the easiest rank, even if you've already completed levels. However, if you use the rank selection, eventually switch back to the easiest rank and then start, the lowest uncompleted level of this rank will be loaded (the same behaviour as with any other rank).

Wouldn't it be more consistent to always load the next uncompleted level and pre-select the rank that level on game start?

[namida]

That is quite clearly a feature.

(Nah, I kid. It's a bug that I keep forgetting about any time I'm updating the bug list or actually working on the code... xD)

[mobius]

I think I've confirmed somewhat conclusively that the 10-second skip lag only occurs when there's bombing in the level.

It seems to happen especially if you press the space bar while the 'debris' is flying. Then it seems to lag if you use it ever again in that instance of gameplay. However if you wait until the whole animation is over it won't lag. I think the bombing animation is definitely what's doing it here.

[namida]

From some quick testing, it appears you're right. I'll look into this in more detail later on.

[namida]

Okay, I looked more into this, and thanks to your suggestion as to the cause, was able to fix it.

On a side note, I've also added an option in custom-made Flexi packs to unlock all levels by default. This means you now have three choices of how you make your packs - forcing sequential play completely; suggesting sequential play but allowing skipping via a cheat code; or outright just opening up all levels right from the start.

(Still need to make a seperate option to exclude secret levels from that, though.)

[namida]

Couple of new features I've added for the next update; they aren't too visible in a screenshot so we'll have to wait until a video (or an LPIV demo) using them surfaces...

> Constantly-animating objects can now be set to start from a pseudorandom frame; this will avoid the effect of all of the same object within a level animating perfecty in sync with each other. (Of course, this behaviour could be desired for certain object types (such as one-way arrows), hence why it's an option.)
> Added a new type of object, "moving background piece". These are like usual no-effect constant-animation objects, except they can move! Their maximum movement speed is 255 pixels per direction per 17 frames of gameplay, and they can move in a straight line, or diagonally at a 22.5 degree or 45 degree angle. Their speed/angle of movement is defined by the level, not by the object itself, so you can even have a sort of "parallax" movement if you want.

(Eeep, posted this in the Editor topic by accident earlier.)


Also, I'm finally getting around to replacing some of the kludgier parts of NeoLemmix (written back when I had very little idea what I was actually doing) with more well-written code. This probably won't have much effect on the average user, but will make the source code a lot tidier. It's possible it may result in very slight performance increases.

[mobius]

Couple of new features I've added for the next update; they aren't too visible in a screenshot so we'll have to wait until a video (or an LPIV demo) using them surfaces...

> Constantly-animating objects can now be set to start from a pseudorandom frame; this will avoid the effect of all of the same object within a level animating perfecty in sync with each other. (Of course, this behaviour could be desired for certain object types (such as one-way arrows), hence why it's an option.)
> Added a new type of object, "moving background piece". These are like usual no-effect constant-animation objects, except they can move! Their maximum movement speed is 255 pixels per direction per 17 frames of gameplay, and they can move in a straight line, or diagonally at a 22.5 degree or 45 degree angle. Their speed/angle of movement is defined by the level, not by the object itself, so you can even have a sort of "parallax" movement if you want.

(Eeep, posted this in the Editor topic by accident earlier.)


Also, I'm finally getting around to replacing some of the kludgier parts of NeoLemmix (written back when I had very little idea what I was actually doing) with more well-written code. This probably won't have much effect on the average user, but will make the source code a lot tidier. It's possible it may result in very slight performance increases.

this all sounds really cool. [will be easier to see in action ]
the parallax thing sounds interesting. It's something that was used effectively in one of the mario games I don't remember which. It was also, I felt, used poorly in several other games but it depends on how it's implemented. As long as a background image is sufficiently different or of different brightness than the foreground it won't be confusing. And it shouldn't be too cluttered or busy.

great work with the whole project so far btw.

[namida]

So far, I've only made use of the background thing to have stars and planets floating around in the background in the space graphic set; although there's no reason it couldn't be used for full-scale background images. With that being said, currently the movement of them is constant, not relative to how much you scroll the screen.

[namida]

Well, it appears Cheapo itself only supported 5-bit color depth (or 6-bit for the Green channel), so upgrading Copycat Lemmings to use the new format isn't as much of a big deal - it won't give any improvement in graphics quality, as the old 18-bit color format could still support the entire color range that Cheapo could.

Still, it goes without saying that they should be updated to the new format for consistency's sake, so it's still on the todo list; just not as important a matter.

[PIGSgrame]

I found 2 level bugs in the Original Lemmings Neo player v 1.32

Fun 9 / Tricky 26
The Lemmings die as soon as they touch the pillar. Looks like either there's something wrong with the Y position of the trap on top of the pillar, or something is marked deadly in the tileset which shouldn't.

Taxing 27
This level if cut off at the right and left. You don't actually need the structures that are missing because of that, but the original Amiga level uses the whole level space.
(cf. http://tle.vaarties.nl/images/solutions/lemmings/amiga/taxing/27%20-%20Call%20in%20the%20bomb%20squad.gif)

[namida]

Fun 9 / Tricky 26, I'll look into.

Taxing 27, this is simply because it's "more NeoLemmix-y". DOS/Amiga used a fixed level size, so many levels filled in the empty space with decoration. NeoLemmix supports resizable levels, so a lot of the non-functional decorative elements have been cut out.

[namida]

Sorry about the delay with the Fun 9 / Tricky 26 bug. I've just now confirmed that I can reproduce this bug, and will look into the cause of it within the next few hours and release an update to fix it.

I'd guess it wouldn't be a matter of the level design, but rather an engine bug; as I had a similar problem with an LPIV level prior to the V1.32n release but thought I had fixed it. In this case, the trigger area was shifted to the right as well as downwards, but the downwards shift was not nearly as significant as in this case. The LPIV case also related to a fire object, and affected more than one object (all affected objects were shifted by the same amount, while still retaining their original trigger area as well).

(Just for reference about the "shift downwards" - unless there's something even weirder than I thought going on here, the extra fire trigger area is definitely linked to the fire trap above the pillar, not one of the ones on the sides.)

If anyone's aware of anywhere else this may happen (in both this case and the LPIV case, it's been relating to fire in levels that do contain fire objects), let me know.

[namida]

Okay, I'm 90% sure I've found the cause of this now - certianly Fun 9 / Tricky 26's case is fixed. I'll do some more testing soon, but I think it's sorted.

Although cases so far have only been noticed with fire objects, it could theoretically affect any object that uses the main trigger map (ie: any object that can affect a lemming that walks into it, apart from water).

[namida]

So, for the next version, I'm working on removing the limit of 32 entrances in a level, and instead allowing any amount (up to the number of allowed objects, which is currently 128; I'm hoping to expand that too, but possibly not yet). Current level format (which would need to be revised anyway to allow more than 128 objects) only allows up to 32 entries in the window order data, but very few (if any) levels use the window ordering anyway, apart from those converted from Cheapo; in the absence of window ordering data in the level, it just works on the object ID order and although it's currently limited to 32, this is just an engine limitation and not limited in any way by the level format; thus this is the easiest thing to expand first.

In terms of allowing more than 128 objects / 1000 terrains / 128 steels; the latter two would only require a level format that supports it, but having no maximum on number of objects would also require modifications to the engine as well as modifications to level format; the way trigger areas are currently handled limits it to 255 functional objects (extra ones can theoretically exist, but would be treated as fake if they aren't windows, water, receivers, one-way arrows or pre-placed lemmings).


I don't see myself ever using more than 32 entrances in a level (I can't even think off-hand of any case where I've used more than 4, and even that's rare - most of my levels use one or two), and I'd think there'd be very few cases where more entrances would be a more suitable option than pre-placed lemmings, but it never hurts to have the option there.


EDIT: Okay, added that, and as futureproofing, I've also revised the way the trigger area map is handled, so it can now handle up to 65535 objects in a level (and like the old system, objects beyond this won't crash the game or not appear at all; they'll just act as fake if they're not one of the aforementioned objects that doesn't need a trigger area on the main trigger area map). For now, this will most likely be a purely behind-the-scenes change, though perhaps I'll work on implementing the support for a larger number of pieces soon...


EDIT: Eh. Started working on such a thing, because why not. Initially new format will support (in addition to everything currently supported) object/terrain IDs above 255, an unlimited number of pieces (instead of 128 each for objects/steels, and 1000 for terrains), and an unlimited number of entries in the window ordering (instead of 32 max). It's also more open-ended to allow me to add other stuff to it later without having to revise the whole thing, if need be. It's closely based off the current format, but with just enough modifications to allow for these things.


EDIT: Okay, implemented in the editor (not yet in the player). Loading and saving perfectly. For the majority of levels, the flexible piece count rather than fixed also results in a much smaller filesize (though I haven't yet looked into what the results are once compressed) - compared to the old format where all levels are always 10KB exactly; "Chocblocked!" (first Bumpy level in the LPIV demo) is not even 1KB in the new format, while the largest and highest-piece-count level so far is 7KB.

EDIT: Tested compressed. About a 20% smaller size when compressed for Chocblocked; while the difference is negligable on the other level (less than 1%).

Now, to add support to the player (including in the Level Dump option)...


EDIT: Fully supported by the player now. As of the next release, you'll no longer be limited to 1000 terrains and 128 each of objects and steels; nor to a maximum of 256 objects and 256 terrains in a graphic set (the graphic set format already supports more pieces than this, but until now the level format didn't).

The next question is - while I'm here, I should probably apply the same futureproofing to the level format that I have to the graphic set format, of taking into account potential higher-resolution usage.

[namida]

Alright, got everything working now. Made a few other tweaks to futureproof for higher-resolution levels.

Note that the old NeoLemmix 2KB level format (which has been deprecated for a very long time now) is going to have support removed from the player in the next version. Actual DOS / traditional Lemmix levels will continue to be supported, but NeoLemmix extensions to the format will not. I don't know if any levels in this format even exist anymore, but if they do, they should be upgraded to the either 10KB format or the new variable-sized format as soon as possible - this can be done quickly from NeoCustLemmix or a dumping-enabled Flexi player (provided the levels are in DAT files, not just via LookForLVLFiles) by pressing F4 on the title screen, or using the editor's "Mass Convert" feature (just convert from NeoLemmix to NeoLemmix; this works perfectly fine as a way of upgrading to the latest format).

The editor will retain support for these for a while longer, but I plan to remove it from that too sooner or later.



New level format will be a reduction in filesize on most levels; though it may be an increase on some that have a very large number of pieces. Old file size was always 10240 bytes regardless of level contents; new format is 177 bytes + 21 bytes per object/steel + 17 bytes per terrain + 3 bytes if there's any window ordering info + 2 bytes per window ordering info entry. This would mean that a level would need around 500 pieces (assuming there's no, or very little, window ordering info) to reach 10240 bytes.

[PIGSgrame]

A question about the Neo version of Mayhem 26 (The Steel Mines of Kessel): Are you sure this level is still possible without any Blockers? In the solution I found for the DOS version years ago, Blockers are not only needed to position the bombers, but also to actually keep back the crowd from hazards.

[namida]

I did test it at the time when I made that change, though I haven't continued to test it every time there's been mechanic changes, so I can't off-hand guarantee it's possible now; only that it was possible at the time I made the change. I definitely remember it was much harder than in DOS, and actually felt like a Mayhem level rather than just a long level.

I'll test that later today.

EDIT: Tested it. It's possible, though as mentioned before, it's a lot harder than on DOS, or even on Amiga. Probably still not as hard as that level on Mac, from what I hear. I was able to save 91% (one lemming more than required); I don't think any higher than that is possible.

[namida]

I've noticed 4 fairly major bugs recently, which I'll try to fix for the next update:

> Replays / frameskips may go out of sync if the release rate is changed on the same frame as a lemming enters the level
> Multiple skills can be assigned during a single frame (including the same skill twice or mutually incompatible skills) by use of replays or backwards frameskips
> Platformers need better terrain checks on the final brick, they may sometimes move one pixel into terrain
> The release rate sometimes doesn't display correctly after reverse frame jumps or 10-second skips during replays (purely cosmetic, it still functions fine)

The first two are the most significant, they can often occur by accident and have major impacts on gameplay (especially the first one). The third one is fairly rare, and requires either precision or specific terrain setups to acheive (excluding intentionally setting it up via destructive skills, I've noticed a total of two levels where it can happen; one of GigaLem's community pack contributions, and one LPIV level that wasn't included in the demo), but is still fairly important IMO. The last one is purely a cosmetic issue, albeit one that can be very annoying.

The 4th one is introduced in a recent version (as a side effect of some optimization of frame-skipping), while the other three have most likely been there for quite some time but gone unnoticed (or at least unreported) until now.

[mobius]

Since I'm putting together two large level packs I have a few questions:

To upgrade the levels can I / do I need to do a batch conversion of all levels to this new format?
Is it better to do this right away or wait?

[namida]

Since I'm putting together two large level packs I have a few questions:

To upgrade the levels can I / do I need to do a batch conversion of all levels to this new format?
Is it better to do this right away or wait?

Can you? Yes.
Do you need to? If you have any NeoLemmix files (not traditional Lemmix ones) that are 2KB, yes; otherwise, not in the meantime - the 10KB format is still fully supported in terms of loading (the editor just won't save into this format anymore).

Would I recommend doing so? It probably isn't a bad idea; if you'd like to be extra safe keep a backup copy of them in the previous format. Just for reference, I did convert all levels included in the NeoLemmix players (plus the LPIV levels); those that were converted by mass-dumping from the player had no issues whatsoever as far as I've noticed, while those which were converted with the editor's Mass Convert did have the issue that Nepster mentioned in the Editor topic, but an update to fix this issue has been released now and no others are known. (If anything is likely to have un-noticed issues, it's probably steel areas; those haven't been exposed to as much testing since they're virtually redundant in NeoLemmix. Of course I've done some tests for the purpose of checking if they work, but they haven't been exposed to the same kind of actual real-world usage that anything else has.)

[namida]

One more newly noticed bug: Swimmers may move below the bottom of the level, similar to how walkers could in No Gravity levels prior to that being fixed. This requires a specific level setup and is almost impossible to make simply by using destructive skills - they need to be swimming in water *very* close to the bottom edge, then encounter terrain they can't get up onto.

[namida]

While we're on the subject of swimmers - a change I'd like to propose; should it be possible to assign a swimmer to a lemming that's currently mid-drowning (and thus save him from drowning)?

In terms of these recent bugs, I've so far fixed 3 of them; still need to fix the release rate during replays issue and the platformer terrain check.

EDIT: Further investigation of the release rate issue initially gave me difficulty in reproducing it, even though I've seen it many times myself. Didn't take too long to find out why - it only happens if the game isn't paused when the release rate is changed. Damn. o_O This is gonna be hard to test as well as hard to fix...

[mobius]

I vote yes on saving drowning lemming into a simmer.

on steel areas; I'd just like to point out that while mostly redundant they do have a use:
for example in a snow level of mine I have a section of steel partially covered with icicles. It's obvious the area is steel and I want it not diggable, but with auto steel some gaps can be made since some icicles go all the way through the steel. Thus I put in some old steel pieces.

[namida]

I vote yes on saving drowning lemming into a simmer.

on steel areas; I'd just like to point out that while mostly redundant they do have a use:
for example in a snow level of mine I have a section of steel partially covered with icicles. It's obvious the area is steel and I want it not diggable, but with auto steel some gaps can be made since some icicles go all the way through the steel. Thus I put in some old steel pieces.

Yeah, I know they're not entirely redundant. Your example can in fact simply be fixed by using "Simple Autosteel" option; though more complex cases (for example, Taxing 7) really do need steel areas, due having a mixture of this (terrain overlapping steel that should still be treated as steel) and terrain that should *actually* overwrite steel.

[namida]

GODDAMNIT THIS FUCKING RELEASE RATE BUG IS PISSING ME OFF. I have tried literally everything and at best, it changes nothing; at worst, it makes it even worse or breaks other things. Everything from simply recording or executing the change a frame earlier/later (since the bug seems to be that it executes the release rate change a frame later than it should), to going as far as reading the release rate changes one frame in advance then applying them in the exact same function that applies player-controlled release rate changes too AND recalculating the next lemming spawn interval if a lemming has spawned in the same frame, is not freaking working. >_>

I think I'm going to go focus on the platformer bug and forget about this one for now... the platformer one should be a much simpler fix.

[Simon]

I am offering soul counselling in IRC.

-- Simon

[mobius]

I vote yes on saving drowning lemming into a simmer.

on steel areas; I'd just like to point out that while mostly redundant they do have a use:
for example in a snow level of mine I have a section of steel partially covered with icicles. It's obvious the area is steel and I want it not diggable, but with auto steel some gaps can be made since some icicles go all the way through the steel. Thus I put in some old steel pieces.

Yeah, I know they're not entirely redundant. Your example can in fact simply be fixed by using "Simple Autosteel" option; though more complex cases (for example, Taxing 7) really do need steel areas, due having a mixture of this (terrain overlapping steel that should still be treated as steel) and terrain that should *actually* overwrite steel.

thanks for clearing up what simple auto steel does. [I neglected to bother finding out what that meant up to this point ]
also thank you for putting up with my  nuisance-ess patiently

[mobius]

grr; I keep forgetting to mention things;

here's a minor thing I noticed a while ago: When selecting lemmings out of a group for example; a digger's hole; It's more difficult to locate the digger than it was in original Lemmix. Granted, it's not as difficult as in Lemmini but still odd. It seemed even harder in a miner's tunnel to locate the miner.

[namida]

Nothing has been changed in that regard from regular Lemmix. In particular, note that you can easily tell whether the miner/digger will be selected as it'll say "Miner" or "Digger" on the infobar rather than "Walker". (Although this doesn't work so well when the digger is also a climber/floater/etc).

In regards to these features you haven't looked into - have you read the sticky topic quick guide to NeoLemmix features? It doesn't go into great detail, but it should explain a lot of the basics of how to use new content.

[namida]

Completely freaking lost as to how to go about fixing the release rate replays issue. Everything I try that should logically fix it seems to, if it does anything at all, make it worse. So, it's probably not going to be fixed in the next update, though I do hope to fix it eventually.

For now, if you're making replays, or even simply intending to use the savestate or backwards frame skip features, all I can suggest is make sure that if you're changing the release rate, either:
a) do it well clear of any time when a lemming is about to spawn
or
b) pause the game before changing it

[namida]

I take that back. After some significant changes to how release rate changing is handled in replays, it would seem I may have managed to fix this bug. Compatibility testing between replays from old and new versions has yet to be done; all I've tested is that the bug no longer occurs on new version and that the fix hasn't given rise to any other bugs. My guess would be it's about 50/50 whether replays from the new version will be usable on the old versions (and if they do work, 50/50 again whether simply making the replay in the new version will prevent the bug from occuring when they're played back on an old version), while I'd find it very surprising if there's any compatibility issues with older version replays on the new version (though the bug won't automatically fix for replays that are already affected by it; not much that can be done about that), and virtually no chance of unfixable compatibility issues.

EDIT: Okay. I tested the single most release-rate-finnicky old-version replay I could find among all Lemmings Plus replays (including LPIV) combined, and it worked with zero problems. Now, to try the reverse...
EDIT: No problems there, either. As I suspected, though, it will not automatically fix replays that are already affected by this issue; it just won't have this issue with any new ones created.


In terms of the platformer bug, the simple change I made was - since this can only be by one pixel, and only on the very last pixel of the entire platforming - is that if doing so would push the lemming into terrain, the lemming simply moves forward by one less pixel on this final brick (after placing it).

[namida]

EricLang has offered me some tips on how to possibly get this to compile on more recent versions of Delphi, so I'm going to have a go at that soon - first with the player, then if I can manage that, next the editor.

I'm not sure how much benefit this will offer, so if there isn't much I will likely stick with Delphi 7. The newer versions offer some degree of cross-platform support, but not Linux; and I don't see NeoLemmix as-is being much use for Android or iOS, meaning the only platform really gained from this is the relatively-insignificant Mac OSX. Still, another new feature is support for 64-bit Windows, so if native 64-bit releases show signs of being useful, that may be a reason to stick with the newer versions.

More interesting would be if I could get it compiling in Lazarus; as that does support Linux, as well as removing the need for anyone else wanting to use the source to buy or pirate Delphi.


The biggest issue likely to affect cross-platform support is that NeoLemmix currently uses bass.dll for all its sound-related functions. Other platform versions of BASS do exist, but this could be problematic due to the somewhat-unique way NeoLemmix (and regular Lemmix) load the DLL; specifically that it's embedded in the EXE and loaded into memory rather than being dynamically linked.

[namida]

Alright, while I was able to get it compiled with EricLang's advice and a few other fixes, the compiled EXE crashes immediately upon boot. Combining this with that I don't see any huge advantage of XE6 (and that the filesize of the EXE is MUCH larger - nearly double!), I don't think I'm going to continue with efforts to port to a newer Delphi release. I may try again with Lazarus at some point, though. However, I've also been considering redoing the entire thing from scratch, so that it can be developed from the start to have a more convenient one EXE, multiple game datas setup, as well as code that I know inside out instead of often having to figure out exactly how EricLang's code works - obviously one obstacle to overcome with this is having to try and reproduce the gameplay mechanics exactly, especially with them being much more complicated than the DOS ones were. If I were to go ahead with this, it would make sense to develop such a thing on either XE6 (or newer) or Lazarus from the beginning - preferably the latter so that a Linux version could also exist. No promises, though.

(One question there would be whether to keep the name "NeoLemmix", since it wouldn't really be based on Lemmix anymore...)

[namida]

I just realised that I overlooked something when upgrading the level format. While level sizes and piece coordinates are now 4-byte values... the screen start positions are still 2-byte values. >_> This would mean that while you could have a level far more than 65535 pixels wide and/or tall, the screen start position can't be further than that...

It's not an overly urgent issue - certianly at the current resolution there's little need for a level anywhere NEAR that size - so I'll most likely not worry about fixing this until other updates to the level format also need to be made.

[mobius]

I downloaded the latest editor. When I tried to playtest with my older Custlem it loaded but was weird (the screen was black and the game ended immediately). So I downloaded the latest custlem version but now it won't open at all. With:
"shellexecute fout 5"

bear with me, I'm tired and busy right now and may be getting all the versions mixed up.

-note: for the time being I'm using an older version (V1.31n-C) of the editor just because, well for this reason and because of the RR issue (which I haven't been able to experience yet). But will this be an issue if I eventually use a newer version or convert levels later?

[namida]

DynaLem mentioned a while back that he was able to fix this error when playtesting with the following steps:
1. Run your copy of NeoCustLemmix (the one in the editor folder) *directly*, not through the editor
2. If a dialog box pops up warning you "this file was downloaded from the internet", uncheck "Always show this warning for this program"
3. Click "Run"
4. Close NeoCustLemmix, and it'll now work



I'm not sure which release rate issue you mean - the one where the release rate doesn't display properly, or the one where it's out-of-sync in replays / backwards frameskips. However, both of these are fixed in V1.33n-B of the player. But, NeoLemmix levels made with V1.33n or newer of the editor will only play (including in playtest mode) in V1.33n or newer of the player, this is because the level format was changed to allow unlimited terrain pieces / objects / steel areas instead of limiting them to 1000 / 128 / 128 respectively.

Current newest version of both is V1.33n-B; the only bug I'm currently aware of in this player version is an extremely minor cosmetic one (the one relating to pre-placed cloners not being taken into account when calculating cloner-adjusted percentages), and is not new to this release but has been this way for as long as cloner-adjusted percentages have existed, just never noticed until now.

[mobius]

oh that's right. I read that and totally forgot about it. That fixed it fine.

[Wafflem]

Two glitches:

1. In NeoCustLemmix, if Cheat Mode (to unlock all levels) is active, and there are no levels that fill in the five slots for secret levels, if you go to Level 3 of any rank, it will basically be a copy of Level 1 of each rank.

2. It seems that the Splat/Antisplat pads don't work; I've attached a level and the corresponding style.

[namida]

1. Not a huge detail, but I will try to get around to fixing it.

2. I'll look into that. I've used them myself in one of the LPIV styles and they definitely work fine there, so I'll see if I can notice anything unusual with that graphic set or level.
EDIT: The trigger area for them needs to overlap the ground the lemmings land on. See attached modified version of your test level.

[Wafflem]

EDIT: The trigger area for them needs to overlap the ground the lemmings land on. See attached modified version of your test level.

Thanks, it works now! This should be noted in the NeoLemmix Quick Guide.

[namida]

Done. I also made a note about a subtle detail of the mechanics of Floater/Glider - Splatpad interaction.

[Wafflem]

I'm not sure where to suggest this, but shouldn't there also be a guide on the "Anti-Blocker Field" in the NeoLemmix Quick Guide (even if no graphic sets use them at all)?

[namida]

There probably should be, now that it's quite easy for someone to make a graphic set containing one (or add one to an existing graphic set) with the graphic set tool. I'll first confirm they work properly (current support is pretty much limited to "I haven't removed what was already there"; I don't know if they're actually being written to the blocker map (as they'd need to be) rather than the main object map, and they won't work if it's the latter - obviously if this is the case I'll fix it), then I'll add something to that topic.

[Wafflem]

The Anti-Blocker Field would work in a lot of levels - it could be a way to prevent backroutes, and also creates challenges. For example, you could overlap the Anti-Blocker Field with a triggered trap or the radiation/slowfreeze object. It can also  be used to prevent blocking from the edge of the level, or it can be used with steel on the bottom to add lots of challenge to crowd control. I feel this should be part of LPIV.

On another note, you had a consideration that secret levels can only be unlocked by completing certain challenges for LPIV. This is something that can work for Flexi players. For example, if you unlock all bronze Talismans, you could unlock a secret level. This secret level can either be in the Secret rank, or as one of the last levels of a normal rank.

[namida]

Yes, I'm planning to add that feature.

[Wafflem]

Looks like I can navigate beyond the maximum number of pages in the Talisman screen.

This is possible when I hold right as opposed to pressing it.

The same is true when I hold left, in which case I get a list out of bounds error.

[namida]

Found a MAJOR issue in (unofficial verison, thankfully) V1.33n-B of Lemmings Plus II relating to the secret levels. It'll be fixed in V1.34n, which will be an official update anyway.

It relates to secret levels; so those without any (LPI, HLP, Omega) won't be affected. I haven't yet checked if LPIII or either of their bonus packs are, but will definitely make sure to do so before the updates. The bug is basically that the secret levels aren't there; so they won't be accessible via codes (whether cheat or regular); while accessing them via the secret level triggers could do anything from repeating the previous level to the game crashing.

[mobius]

Couple of new features I've added for the next update; they aren't too visible in a screenshot so we'll have to wait until a video (or an LPIV demo) using them surfaces...

> Constantly-animating objects can now be set to start from a pseudorandom frame; this will avoid the effect of all of the same object within a level animating perfecty in sync with each other. (Of course, this behaviour could be desired for certain object types (such as one-way arrows), hence why it's an option.)
> Added a new type of object, "moving background piece". These are like usual no-effect constant-animation objects, except they can move! Their maximum movement speed is 255 pixels per direction per 17 frames of gameplay, and they can move in a straight line, or diagonally at a 22.5 degree or 45 degree angle. Their speed/angle of movement is defined by the level, not by the object itself, so you can even have a sort of "parallax" movement if you want.

have these features been added yet? I downloaded version 1.33n-b, I'm particularly interested in the objects animating randomly. Where is this option?

[namida]

Yes, they've been added for a long time. They're options when making custom graphic sets - though the random start frame, I should probably go through and apply it to some objects in the default ones too... (eg: exit decorations, flags)

[mobius]

Yes, they've been added for a long time. They're options when making custom graphic sets - though the random start frame, I should probably go through and apply it to some objects in the default ones too... (eg: exit decorations, flags)

ohhhh. I was hoping that'd be an option in the editor to effect each object individually.

[mobius]

is there an option to have the skill bar turn white when at zero like in old Lemmings? I kind of like that better (it's easier to see for one thing) than the 00.

[GigaLem]

is there an option to have the skill bar turn white when at zero like in old Lemmings? I kind of like that better (it's easier to see for one thing) than the 00.

That can give me the option to turn the white spaces to say "OUT" when a skill # reaches 0

[namida]

is there an option to have the skill bar turn white when at zero like in old Lemmings? I kind of like that better (it's easier to see for one thing) than the 00.

Currently, no. At one point, whited-out actually meant "infinite", but later an actual symbol for infinite was added. Perhaps the whited-out for zero can be readded now...

[Wafflem]

Lemmings Plus I has an error, which says "Bestand 'g_.dat' staat niet in archief." Also, when i get to Wimpy 1, it says the title but gives me a blank level map, and 0 lemmings with 0% to be saved. I've downloaded LPI from the NeoLemmix website. The other LP players seem to work fine (including Lemmings Plus Flashbacks).

I am not sure if this also affects the official Lemmings games.

[namida]

Seems to be an issue with oddtabling that's crept in somewhere. If so, it'd most likely also occur with Orig, Extra and LPOmega, but not any others. I'll look into this later today. I can definitely confirm it only occurs on levels that use oddtabling (eg: Mild 1 and Wimpy 1 have issues, while Medi 1, Danger 1 and Psycho 1 are all fine. Medi 2, on the other hand, also has the same issue. I didn't test too extensively, but if my guess is correct, then you wouldn't see it on, say, Mild 19.)

[namida]

Okay, I've looked into it a bit more. I can see exactly what is happening, but I'm currently clueless as to why. At any rate though, the oddtabling code is horribly messy and needs a rewrite, so I may as well get that out of the way now rather than trying to fix something that's due to be replaced anyway. (It actually currently works by loading a level over the top of an already-loaded level, and skipping certain parts depending on how an extra argument is set - I'm replacing it with code that loads the two seperately, then copies the needed data over from the source level.)

In all honesty pretty much everything except the game mechanics themself (maybe even some parts of those) really need to be re-done at some point, so I might even redo the entire level loading code while I'm here, to get it out of the way. Though I was hoping to do all the major stuff in a single update too, once we have a fairly stable current version that'll hold up while that's being done.

EDIT: I found where the issue in the existing code was, so I'll keep the rewrite on hold for now. Gonna upload a fix now...

[Wafflem]

Should all games that were designed using the Flexi player be part of the NeoLemmix update stream (e.g. GigaLems)?

[namida]

At the moment, GigaLems is the *only* such game (cLemmings Ultimate Edition was also made using Flexi, but it was made using the traditional version). If GigaLem requests, I can update it to the new version, but so far he hasn't asked for it to be updated so I haven't done so. Even if I were to update it, I probably wouldn't make it part of the update stream.

Besides, if I follow the current plans (for V1.35n to be the last in the V1.xxn series, and V2.00n to work on a one-EXE system), then apart from a V1.35n update, there'll be no further need for such anyway. At the moment, the only fanmade game to be part of the update stream is Copycat Lemmings, and that's because due to the need for constantly updating it (prior to release) during development of Cheapo-to-NeoLemmix tools it was much simpler to create a made-from-source version than use the Flexi player; all I have to do to update those to a new version is recompile them (and if any data files are updated, rebuild the compiled data file - this is for me basically the same as building the RES file during making a Flexi-based pack, but no need to do the Resource Hacker part afterwards; it gets built into the EXE while compiling - so this is basically a one-click thing. There's also no need for a SYSTEM.DAT file in these cases.). It didn't make much sense to delete that and change it into a Flexi-based EXE afterwards.

[namida]

Two new bugs I found while adding / testing talismans for Lemmings Plus Omega:

- There's a glitch similar to the remaining-blocker-field, though less severe and requires a very specific setup. If you place a blocker, then place another blocker behind him facing the same direction, so that there's only one pixel between their hands, then release the blocker in front first, when you release the one behind, one pixel of blocker turning area will remain.
- Talismans based on "assign skills to only one lemming" will not be awarded if any cloners are used.


Also, one LONG-overdue fix that I'd been completely neglecting to even list - from the next version, it'll finally be possible for multiple sound effects to be triggered during the same frame (previously, only one of them would play). This was also the reason why no skill assign sound occurred when assigning a bomber or stoner - previously, the assign sound was explicitly suppressed so that the OhNo sound would play, because this bug would otherwise cause the OhNo sound not to play.

[Wafflem]

Some new bugs:

CustLemmixNeo: This has to do with the Unused Gimmicks Pack. If I play the RR Fluctuation level before playing another level in the pack, the level's gimmick combines with the RR Fluctuation (e.g. if I play the RR Fluctuation level, then play the Solid Floor level, that level becomes Solid Floor + RR Fluctuation).

Another glitch in LPO: the exit trigger area seems to be off in the Martian graphic set, as the exit trigger area seems to not be in the center; I've attached an image.

[namida]

I'll look into that bug. I thought I weeded out everywhere that can happen, but obviously not.

As for the trigger area, I noticed that myself. I think the Circuit set has a similar issue too, IIRC, though it's not as noticable due to the large exit area.

[Wafflem]

With Zombies on Death, when using a Stoner on a lemming and the lemming turns into stone, a zombie still emerges. Is this intentional behavior?

Some things for Instant Pickup Skills:
-It seems that even if a Climber picks up a Climber skill, it doesn't get added to the skillset.
-Clone on Assign + Instant Pickup Skills, even if a lemming picks up a skill and performs the skill, they do not clone. Since the lemming is already assigned the skill upon picking it up, shouldn't they be cloned as well? A similar issue happens with Turnaround on Assign + Instant Pickup Skills and Assign All + Instant Pickup Skills.
-If the Pickup Skill is a Bomber/Stoner and the lemming picks it up, you can see a "1" on the top of the lemming. I don't think this is intended, seeing as that if you normally assign a Bomber/Stoner, the lemming explodes/stones instantly without the "1" on top.
-If a lemming picks up a skill and that skill is also in the skillset, in addition to the lemming performing the skill, that skill is also selected (e.g. if a lemming picks up a blocker, the skillset automatically highlights blocker as if you have clicked on it). This only happens when you use a replay on a level.

[namida]

The Zombie-on-Death + Stoner thing is intentional. Ways of dying are not discriminated here, as long as you're not meaning "if it's already a zombie, then passes through a slowfreeze, then gets stoned, a second zombie emerges". It even applies to traps that, graphically, would reduce the lemming to nothingness (and applying it with triggered traps was the most difficult in terms of coding).

Will look into the others.

EDIT:
> Climber bug - This actually applies to all skills! Oops. That's what happens when I don't test thoroughly enough. Fixed for -B update.
> Instant Pickup Skills + X on assign gimmicks: That's debatable, you could argue that since the player isn't directly assigning the skill, it shouldn't happen. What's happening from a technical point of view is that, these "X on assign" effects don't happen while the skill counts are frozen, and they're frozen while the lemming is given the just-picked-up skill (to avoid the skillset being reduced, or the skill refusing to function if it's not in the level's skillset). So in a way, yes, it's a bug, but it's also one that perhaps the outcome is how things should work anyway.
> Instant Pickup Skills + bomber/stoner: Fixed. Also fixed the one-frame delay before they actually explode/stone.
> Instant Pickup Skills + replay: As long as this doesn't cause any other glitches, I'm not worried about this one.

[GigaLem]

im having problems with replays when every ichotolot sends me one one for a neolemmix level i gives me a "doesn't appear to be a neolemmix replay 0020" error

[namida]

From the V1.35n changelog:

NOTE: V1.35n replays will not work on previous versions of NeoLemmix (previous version replays
      will work on V1.35n).

If your levels were made / edited with a version of the editor older than V1.35n-A, you might get a warning when trying to load the replay (saying it's for the wrong level), but it'll still load, and if it is actually for the right level, it will work fine.

[Crane]

I'm not sure how this is best addressed, but I don't like how you can dig into down arrows or one-way arrows that are against the lemming's current direction, and then bash to stop him (or mine if against one-way arrows).  In the original Lemmings, the action would fail completely because he was inside the one-way arrows object.  This is probably more of a feature than a bug, but I find it a little irritating from a design perspective because it means the player can stop the digger without a blocker, builder or a steel plate and make a pit to trap lemmings.

Personally, I'd check the status of the pixel that is in front of the lemming... what would be the wall of the digger's trench, one above the floor (so it doesn't interfere with mining into one-way arrows to turn a lemming around, or bashing through a regular wall that sits on top of one-way arrows).  If it is against the lemming's direction, then fail (don't do anything except maybe play the "chink" sound) if the player tries to assign a basher or miner.  This also has the nice effect of making it clear to a beginner that you can't bash against the arrows on, say, Fun 11 ("Keep your hair on, Mr. Lemming").

[Wafflem]

Three new glitches:

1. It seems that if a terrain is close to the top of the level and there is about a 1-pixel gap between the terrain and the top of the level, and a lemming climbs up to the top, instead of the lemming walking through, they turn around and fall again. I've attached a level; the trapdoor is pre-assigned climbers.

2. There seems to be another object order issue. If a lemming falls into a terrain that has radiation and splat pad at the same time, the lemming doesn't splat, but instead receives the radiation. I've also attached a level.

3. Minor graphical glitch, but it seems that when a lemming falls down and splats, they move left by one pixel. I've attached an image for this one.

[namida]

1 & 3: I'll look into these.

2: Without using ridiculous amounts of either memory or processing time (especially on larger levels), there's a limit to how much this kind of allowance for overlapping objects can happen. The priority isn't exactly "radiation has priority over splatpad" as such; it's just whichever object is last in the object order has priority. To fix this with anything resembling the current way of working would need as much memory as 64KB per pixel, or around 3GB for just a single screen. I have one idea of how it could be improved somewhat, although this would still only allow overlapping of object types that the individual object does not need to be tracked (only the type does) plus one object per pixel where it does, so for example, you could overlap a triggered trap, a fire object and radiation, but not a triggered trap and a pickup skill (as both of these need to track the individual object).

Of course, eventually, the ideal approach would be to allow for overlapping of any number of objects, but I'm not entirely sure how best to achieve this.


EDIT: Re: point 1, in terms of that they fall down and turn around, this is intended (it will even happen *two* pixels from the edge, and will also happen with walkers). However, there are other issues here that should be fixed, see attached level.

[Wafflem]

If a lemming falls a high distance into a teleporter, and the receiver's trigger area is over the top of the level, when the lemming exits the receiver, they splat. Attached is a level to illustrate this.

[namida]

I'm not sure what you think should happen there? The lemming ends up outside the level, so perhaps there's an argument for removing it entirely (without a splat), but this isn't so much a glitch, as a level design set up to allow the lemming to get stuck in the infinite wall outside the level. The same would happen if you placed the receiver inside the level boundaries, but embedded in terrain; or for that matter if with a more typical teleporter setup, the lemming fell that kind of distance into a teleporter then hit ground under the receiver.

[Wafflem]

It just seems weird for a lemming to splat over the top level boundary, but I agree with your points for the other reasons lemmings splat upon exiting the receiver (splatting in receiver embedded interrain, etc.).

Found another glitch: bomber particles appear on the upper left of the screen instead of the lemming bombing itself. This occurs when the lemming bombs, then I press "R" to replay, then press Space Bar a couple of time to get to the point where the lemming exploded.

Also:

> Lemmings move left one pixel when splatting (possibly only when facing right?)

I can also confirm that they move left one pixel when they splat while facing left.

[namida]

Okay. Before I put out the V1.35n-C update, I'd like to encourage people to report any bugs they've noticed - no matter how insignificant or how unlikely I am to consider them important - because ideally, I'd like to make this the absolute last update before working on V2.00n. This only applies to the player; no need to worry so much about the editor at this stage, unless the issue lies in player-editor integration. Anything relating to the Flexi Toolkit, let me know just in case - though it may be a toolkit issue, not a player issue, I'm probably more able to determine where the issue lies than the average user would be and either way it'll be helpful to know.

For the same reasons, I'll probably get some people who've been particularly good at spotting bugs to test V1.35n-C before I actually release it, even though I normally don't do that with NeoLemmix updates.

Basically, I only want to do a V1.35n-D update if there's either very serious glitches, or glitches newly introduced by the V1.35n-C update. Otherwise, V1.35n-C will be the final release of the V1.xxn branch.

[mobius]

I have player version 1.33-nB.

apoligies if this was covered, I did a quick search and couldn't find anything. The miner safe/deadly fall glitch still seems to be present. I attach a level to

I will PM you a level and replay with a demonstration. [I don't want to post here for spoileryies!!
Glad I thought of that in time.

[namida]

This actually seems to be the inverse of the L1 glitch; miners are surviving a fall that other lemmings cannot (in L1, sometimes miners would not survive a fall that other lemmings would). I'm going to guess that the fall in question in your replay is exactly 1 pixel too far for the normal lemmings (after testing: yes, this is indeed the case), which may mean the miner moving downwards one pixel during its normal movement isn't counted towards the fall distance. That's not to say that should happen; just that it's what is happening. I'll be sure to more closely investigate and fix that.

[Wafflem]

Seems that if I type in the cheat code to enable Cheat Mode (i.e. press "1" to skip levels, unlock all levels), but then when I exit the player and open it again, Cheat Mode is turned off automatically, and I have to re-enter the cheat code to re-enable Cheat Mode.

This happens in Flexi Players such as GigaLems, Lemmings Reunion and the Cheapo Copycat Lemmings players, but does not from players that are built from source code (e.g. Lemmings Plus series).

[namida]

I've noticed this myself. Previously I'd only seen this in other packs, and concluded the designers must have chosen the options that result in this; but I noticed it also happens in the NeoLemmix Introduction Pack (which is Flexi-based, not made-from-source).

[mobius]

I've been checking secret triggers and noticed something;

if I tell a secret trigger to point to a level in a rank of 6 or above it gives a "list index out-of-bounds" message and crash.

[namida]

^ Just to verify, you do have a rank 6 in your pack, right? (In particular, it's not a NeoCustLemmix pack?) If this is the case, I'll need to look into it - LP3B has no issues with secret triggers pointing to rank 6, but this could be a problem exclusive to Flexi.

[mobius]

yes, there are 7 ranks total. It seems to work fine 1-5. This is for the Flexipack I'm making.

Maybe this is what's causing my problem with creating the levelpack. When I try to build the exe for FlexiLemmix is works but when I open the program it says list index out of bounds 3.

[namida]

That'd suggest it's trying to access the 4th item in a set of something that has 3 (or less, though it'd likely try to access #3 first and thus say "list index out of bounds 2" instead) items in it. Most likely suspects are MAIN.DAT or ranks. Just to be sure - you say it only causes this error if you have a secret level trigger somewhere that points to rank 6 or higher? This seems kind of strange, as it doesn't even check what level secret triggers point to until the level itself is loaded, and doesn't try to load the level itself until it's reached.

If you don't mind, could you PM me a ZIP of your project? (If you're having issues uploading here, feel free to use Dropbox or something like that.)

[bsmith]

I have noticed a minor problem across all the neolemmix players - sometimes when finishing a level, I get a black screen instead of the results screen.  When I click to continue I see a brief flash of the results screen before the next level intro screen loads.  I have also seen this behavior when accessing the options or talismans screens.

[namida]

That'd suggest a problem with the fade in / fade out code, which hasn't been changed from the default in Lemmix. How often does it happen, and have you noticed any patterns in what might be triggering it?

[Wafflem]

Looks like I've found a climber-stacker-interaction glitch. Here's a test level and the provided replay for it.

[bsmith]

When the fade glitch occurs, it seems to happen every 4 or 5 levels while playing for a while.  I thought level length could be a cause but I have seen it pop up after short levels with a couple of skill assignments or after a long level with many tasks.

But I can just start up a game and hit F3 and page back and forth between the two settings panels and the glitch seems to crop up once every 5 times I switch between the two pages.

[namida]

Can I ask - when this happens on the config menu, what happens if you push one of the buttons to change an option? (A) Is the option actually changed, and (B) Does the screen fix itself at this point?

Does it happen equally on all players, or are there some where it happens more often than others?

Later on (might not be today), I'll create and send you a modified version of the player that disables the fade in / fade out, so you can tell me if you still get the issue even with the fade disabled. This won't look as good, but adding an option to disable the fades might be an acceptable workaround; the next update will likely be the last one before the GUI gets completely rewritten anyway so no point in implementing a solid fix (unless it turns out to be very easily done).

Also, if anyone else has encountered this issue, let me know.

EDIT: I'll also ask, just in case - what version of Windows are you running on, or are you running it on Linux under WINE?

[namida]

From taking a look at exactly how the fades are written, it'd seem extremely unlikely that disabling them would make a difference.

Can you let me know what happens in regards to the option changes? Also - if you change several options, do you eventually encounter a case where the updated option selection isn't immediately displayed? (This will help me narrow down what exactly might be causing the bug, as some - but not all - of the code for drawing these screens, is also used in updating it when an option is changed.)


Aside from fixing this bug, I think everything that needs to be fixed for V1.35n-C has been fixed. Unless there's any major glitches that have gone undetected, it'll be the final proper update before V2.00n; minor updates are possible if they relate to adding new features that I specifically want to use in my packs, so that I can also release players that support these features (so other people can also use them).

EDIT: Eh no, I somehow missed DynaLem's bug report about climber-stacker. Gonna look at that now.
EDIT: Okay, that's nothing to do with the stacker; the exact same thing would happen if it was already-present terrain. Rather, it's a climber - vertical wrap gimmick interaction glitch. Will fix.

So, at this point, I'll ask one last time (just in case) - if there's any bugs (not suggestions / changes) you've reported but were missed, or noticed but haven't reported, let me know now. Otherwise, there might be quite a long wait for them to get fixed.

[bsmith]

I'm running Windows 8.1.  When in the options menu, making a change while the screen is black does update the option selected and causes the screen to display properly.  As long as I don't change screens, once it displays properly I can make as many changes as I want without any problems.

[Wafflem]

This one is worth fixing:

Currently known low-priority bugs:
> When cheat mode is used to access non-existant secret levels in NeoCustLemmix, they act like clones of the first levels of each rank

[namida]

There's a few reasons I haven't bothered to fix that one yet:
- it's actually a lot more difficult to fix than it may seem; any fix would either require a *lot* of work for a relatively minor bug, or potentially cause significant slowdown while loading levels
- it's relatively minor; you rarely need Cheat Mode in NeoCustLemmix anyway
- it'll go away with V2.00n anyway, since the parts of the code that are responsible for that issue are included in what will be rewritten

[mobius]

back to fitting more info in the info bar:

ironically Windows versions of Lemmings is a good example; Have the Total Lemmings/requirement display in the spot where the lemming indicator (walker, faller, builder) is when it is empty. in other words, while the mouse is not hovering over a lemming that spot is usually empty.
You could even have more info displayed here in this fashion.
Or another idea I just had: display certain things when mousing over. For example; display total lemming count when hovering over an entrance, and requirement when hovering over the exit.

[mobius]

I've been reading about the new features. (I plan to use them in my new pack).

about the clock gimmick:

this sounds really interesting but is there any way to have this work a little more player friendly? Like, instead of working based on the real time clock, work on an in-game timer that begins when the level starts, it could be based off the actual game clock.
As it is this is more of a just prank type of thing without any real puzzle effect [that is If I am understanding the instructions correctly].


on the rising water:

is it possible to lower the water as well or do both in one level?

[namida]

Are you meaning as in actually have terrain appear mid-gameplay? This currently doesn't happen - if, say, the level had terrain appear between 12:30 and 12:40, if you started playing at 12:29, and were still playing at 12:30, the terrain wouldn't suddenly appear - but if you restarted the level (even just by pressing R) at this point, it would appear.


As for the rising water, currently there's no support for sinking water. It'd take some pretty major overhauling of how it works to implement this; I could look at it for V2.00n.



By the way - I discovered some oddities with the trigger areas of pickup skills in virtually every graphic set (apart from the LPIV ones). Specifically, the trigger area is shifted one pixel right from where it should be, and in the case of the LPII sets and one or two of the official sets, it's also one pixel taller than it should be. These things will be fixed in the next update.

[namida]

From now on, please only report major bugs - ie: something completely doesn't work.

This means - if you find, for example, "when I play two special graphics levels in a row, the second one always crashes", definitely report that.
Even if it's not quite this major - for example, "when I play a level with two entrances, then one with three entrances, one entrance doesn't work on the latter", it could still be worth reporting.

However, if it's obscure and not major, it's not going to get a V1.35n-D update to fix it, eg. "If I interrupt a builder by assigning a basher to him, and he's also a climber, floater and swimmer, and the Invert Fall Fatality gimmick is on, an "Oh No" sound plays instead of the normal skill assign sound" is not going to get fixed. (This is not an actual bug, just an exaggerated example.)

[mobius]

can we still post suggestions?

I may have mentioned this before but I don't remember; now it's starting to irritate me. Can we please modify the sound effects? I hate the old Amiga sound effects. Especially that annoying low "boing bururur" sound of selecting a skill. It's so loud and just irritating. There's tons of sounds on the internets to choose from.
 I really want new sounds. I want new sounds *throws tantrum*

Are you meaning as in actually have terrain appear mid-gameplay? This currently doesn't happen - if, say, the level had terrain appear between 12:30 and 12:40, if you started playing at 12:29, and were still playing at 12:30, the terrain wouldn't suddenly appear - but if you restarted the level (even just by pressing R) at this point, it would appear.

if you don't mind my asking; what gave you the idea for this one? I think it's the most bizarre gimmick yet.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

looking forward to the ghosts
not much of a spoiler I guess since I saw this mentioned in the contest thread but yeah

[namida]

Initially the idea behind the clock gimmick was to have a level in Omega where subtle changes occur at random, meaning you had to try until they were favorable. But I felt this would be too unfair, so I instead made it so that the changes were more obvious and the level was fairly clearly impossible without them.

Can we please modify the sound effects? I hate the old Amiga sound effects.

It's a good thing NeoLemmix uses the Windows sound effects then.
But thanks, I'll keep in mind for V2.00n to support switching sets of sound effects (at least for system sounds; trap sounds etc would most likely be treated as part of graphic sets rather than part of the core sounds).

[namida]

Discovered a bug relating to pre-placed lemmings in multiple-window levels. The preplaced lemmings are counted as having spawned, which affects which window the first lemming comes from.

For example, say we have a level with three windows (A, B and C). If you were to put one pre-placed lemming in this level, the first lemming to spawn from a window would come from window B, not A. And if there were two pre-placed lemmings, the first spawned lemming would come from window C. After this point the pattern continues as normal (so after window B, the next lemming always comes from window C. It only affects where the starting point in the release order is.)

It's a minor bug, and the behaviour is consistent, so level designers can adjust for this - they just need to be sure to take it into account. I won't release an update to fix this; but it will be fixed in V2.00n. I'll make sure V2.00n accounts for this when importing older levels.

[mobius]

alright, I promise this will be my last minor/ sort of major imo issue/bug thing for this version or whatever. [I need to be doing other things anyway]

I should mention again; something which I think isn't just a personal preference but pretty important I think; the way zombies are counted as normal lemmings in the level menu screen. The level designer has to account for this when setting the numbers and it's confusing to the player too. Currently the menu screen will read one thing while in level it says another.
I don't care if other minor things don't get fixed but this is pretty major imo.

Initially the idea behind the clock gimmick was to have a level in Omega where subtle changes occur at random, meaning you had to try until they were favorable. But I felt this would be too unfair, so I instead made it so that the changes were more obvious and the level was fairly clearly impossible without them.

Can we please modify the sound effects? I hate the old Amiga sound effects.

It's a good thing NeoLemmix uses the Windows sound effects then.
But thanks, I'll keep in mind for V2.00n to support switching sets of sound effects (at least for system sounds; trap sounds etc would most likely be treated as part of graphic sets rather than part of the core sounds).

oh, how could I forget that? I had the windows version . The trap sounds sounds good, I don't have a problem with those anyway. It's a personal preference anyway and not that important.

[namida]

I won't release a V1.35-D (or V1.36n) update to deal with that, but I'll most certianly handle it better in V2.00n.

[mobius]

I just had a cool idea that is only a minor modification to a system already in place:

the reverse of the locked exit. If you can start the level with the exit open and when all buttons are pressed it closes; now the buttons are things to avoid instead of hit. Other setups; you could have zombies roaming around, aiming to press the buttons.

[namida]

It looks like a V1.35n-D update might have to happen after all, due to two major glitches that I've found (in particular the second one):

> Sometimes lemmings will get stuck in terrain if they fall into a digger pit being dug by a ghost
> Two-way teleporters sometimes cause the complete disappearance of the lemming that is teleporting

The second one I encountered when playing one of DynaLem's levels, so it would seem it's relevant to existing content. The ghost bug won't matter too much as long as it's fixed before ZZ Project comes out...

[namida]

Another bug that's been encountered relates to climbers climbing from digger pits then hitting their heads at the top; in some cases some will splat and others won't despite falling the same distance. This showed up in one of my own Revenge of the Lemmings videos. If anyone else has encountered this and has a replay (in any level), please send me it, as I'm having quite a lot of difficulty reproducing this bug in a test level.

In regards to the other two known bugs, I have ideas of why they happen but haven't looked into them in detail yet. I can consistently reproduce the ghost digger one; the two-way teleporter one is not so consistent but I do have a replay where this occurs.

[GigaLem]

A Screen where it tells you that you won a talisman

[namida]

There's a message on the post-view screen, and it's staying that way until V2.00n. Further updates to V1.xxn branch is bugfixes only.

[namida]

Any other bugs people have encountered in V1.35n-C? Since there are some pretty critical ones in there, I've already determined another update is nessecary; I'm close to fixing all the ones I know of, but if there's any more out there that fixing won't affect physics outside of cases specifically relying on the bug (or will only affect extremely obscure situations that no level is known to have made use of), let me know so that I can get them sorted.

[Name Invaild]

I dunno if this is the right place to post this but given that the title of this thread has "Suggestions" in it perhaps this is the right place?

Was a Gravity Gimmick suggested before? I don't mean the "Anti-Gravity/No Gravity?" that's currently in NeoLemmix but I mean "flipping" the gravity to either be walking upside down or on the sides, etc. Something like this...

I color-coded them in the image to hopefully make it a bit easier to tell them apart. Blue is upside down, Yellow is on the right side, Green is normal, Red is on the left side and finally Purple is walking around the terrain without falling.

Now perhaps it may not be a gimmick maybe skills that allow lemmings to flip gravity in whichever direction or to act something like the Mango Boots in Lemmings 2: The tribes. There could also be an object that changes the Lemming's gravity.

Skill names since this suggests two I guess can be called... names can be changed if they don't fit.

Gravity Field/Change - Changes a lemming's gravity pull. An arrow will appear which will point to wherever the cursor is at much like how the Turner Skill in 3D Lemmings did. The skill is applied upon clicking a second time anywhere. Can cancel it by selecting another skill if you change your mind. Can also force a lemming with Gravity Boots to come off the terrain and go stick to different terrain. Think of it as moving from planet to planet.

Gravity Boots - Works like the Mango Boots in Lemmings 2: The Tribes however you can assign skills without losing the effect. Can't assign Climbers if a lemming has this skill since it'll always stick to the terrain however you can give it a Floater/Glider if you force-change gravity with the Gravity Field/Change and they will use them until they land on terrain.

This is perhaps more of an idea than a suggestion now looking at it but looking at all the gimmicks and new skills I figure I can give it a shot. It... wouldn't hurt, right?

[namida]

At this point, I'm not taking suggestions for the V1.35n-D update; it's purely bugfixes-only (except maybe very minor and useful suggestions, if any are presented).

I've previously ruled out gravity changes, but then, this was mostly based on the difficulty to implement it. Since V2.00n is a rewrite from scratch, if there's a lot of interest in it I could reconsider this for that; but that's something I'll discuss when I get closer to implementing game physics. At the moment, I'm working on implementing loading / saving data files; currently graphic sets. (Yeah, I have been on that for a while; been fairly busy lately so it's slow, but I am making progress.)

Even in V2.00n, adding more skills is very unlikely. Many content creators still stick to the traditional 8, and when the new ones are used, there's still a lot of new tricks being discovered with them. I'm also not too sure how I feel about adding gravity change skills; that's both very backroute-prone and very open to ultra-finnicky solutions.

[GigaLem]

okay so i have two things to say about the "Turnaround on assign" gimmick
-Suggestion
Walkers should be the only skill not affected by the gimmick if its used on a walking lemming
If you are assigning a walker to a plain walker, he should turn around anyway, instead of just continuing to walk the same way he is walking

-Bug
You can very well Glitch a lemming into the wall by assigning a permanent skill while the lemming is climbing
hopeful the replay will load correctly when i attached the zip, i know the level will load