Author Topic: Community Request: Find Backroutes!  (Read 46969 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Crane

  • Posts: 1081
    • View Profile
Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« on: November 10, 2014, 10:33:23 PM »
Hey everyone.  I've got a few Lemmini levels that I hope you guys can find time to backroute (or solve conventionally!).  One of them you may have seen on my YouTube channel, "JAILBREAK!", and möbius expressed interest in including it in the community pack, therefore I feel it should be thoroughly tested, especially as its difficulty is around 5 or 6 out of 6.  Find attached the levels below:

- JAILBREAK!
- Pipe Dream
- Lemming Pattern Baldness
- Mastermind

"Lemming Pattern Baldness" is a repeat of FUN 11 (and a play on the name "Keep your hair on, Mr. Lemming"), but has a very different toolset and I hope makes for a challenging and glitch-free puzzle.

NOTE: "JAILBREAK!" is confirmed not to be conventially solvable in Lemmix or CustLemm because of bombers behaving slightly differently in some circumstances.

Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2754
  • relax.
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2014, 12:29:55 AM »
to Crane and everyone else: remember to use SuperLemmini if you're testing for the community pack. That is what will be used for the new pack.  :)
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline Crane

  • Posts: 1081
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2014, 01:43:19 AM »
Good call - JAILBREAK! doesn't work on SuperLemmini because climbing bombers now go through their "Oh no" animation.  This extra delay causes a lemming to turn around where he would otherwise walk into the newly made hole.  I'll make a modification to make it work again.  Also, one of the traps doesn't work.  Fixing time!

Offline Crane

  • Posts: 1081
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2014, 03:13:05 AM »
Fixed Jailbreak.  This version has the wheel trap lowered slightly so it triggers, and a 10th Climber.  It will still work on Lemmini, although you can complete it with a leftover Climber.  I don't think this opens up any backroutes.  As a result, the level should work on Lemmix and CustLemm too.

I've also included "music: menace.mod" in the file so SuperLemmini plays the preferred music for this level.

Offline Nepster

  • Posts: 1829
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2014, 06:03:37 PM »
You wanted backroutes? You get backroutes! ;)
Please note that I still used the old version of Jailbreak, even though recorded everything with SuperLemmini.

PS: When does (Super)Lemmini allow the player to save replays? When I loaded the levels directly, this did not work. Only after I created a small levelpack.ini for the four levels, I was able to save replays.

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 12399
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2014, 07:02:32 PM »
You wanted backroutes? You get backroutes! ;)
Please note that I still used the old version of Jailbreak, even though recorded everything with SuperLemmini.

PS: When does (Super)Lemmini allow the player to save replays? When I loaded the levels directly, this did not work. Only after I created a small levelpack.ini for the four levels, I was able to save replays.

With SuperLemmini loading a level via the command line (specifically, through NeoLemmix Editor's playtest mode), I found the replay was saved in the same folder that superlemmini.jar is in, after completing a level. Even though your case is slightly different, probably worth looking there.
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2754
  • relax.
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2014, 10:48:37 PM »
You wanted backroutes? You get backroutes! ;)
Please note that I still used the old version of Jailbreak, even though recorded everything with SuperLemmini.

PS: When does (Super)Lemmini allow the player to save replays? When I loaded the levels directly, this did not work. Only after I created a small levelpack.ini for the four levels, I was able to save replays.

It isn't made obvious but this is how:
every time you press replay, no matter what level it is; the "replay" file located where namida said becomes that replay file. Copy and paste/rename that file wherever you want and that is your replay. Just remember to let the replay begin first before doing this. You have to copy/paste because this single file gets overwritten every time you replay.
As far as I know there is no other way of saving outside of a levelpack.
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline Crane

  • Posts: 1081
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2014, 11:14:12 PM »
- Well, "Lemming Pattern Baldness" is the intended solution - well done.  A fairly simple puzzle for the masters on this forum.

- "Pipe Dream" was a very embarrassing oversight!  I'll make sure you can't dig down that support in future.

- The backroute with "JAILBREAK!" will need some more thought when it comes to patching it... hmmm... I could just put a block of wall to prevent builders, but that would look very untidy.

- "Mastermind" might need one way arrows or steel to prevent bashing through that small void where you first build to.

P.S. Good work.

Offline Crane

  • Posts: 1081
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2014, 02:25:11 AM »
Okay, here are the patched levels.  Have a bash at them now (no pun intended!)

I'm wondering if "Mastermind" should instead be named "Survival of the fittest".  The idea is that this level would be either the ultimate level of a pack, or very close to the end, given it has all the tools and you're supposed to be very masterful in their use. What's your opinion?

I've changed some of the scenery around in "Pipe Dream" to make it prettier and fairer, while "Jailbreak" is back to 9 climbers, but now also has a floater.  If it opens up any backroutes, go find them!

Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2754
  • relax.
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2014, 02:43:18 AM »
Okay, here are the patched levels.  Have a bash at them now (no pun intended!)

I'm wondering if "Mastermind" should instead be named "Survival of the fittest".  The idea is that this level would be either the ultimate level of a pack, or very close to the end, given it has all the tools and you're supposed to be very masterful in their use. What's your opinion?

I've changed some of the scenery around in "Pipe Dream" to make it prettier and fairer, while "Jailbreak" is back to 9 climbers, but now also has a floater.  If it opens up any backroutes, go find them!

If you choose to stick with Mastermind, if will have to be Mastermind part 2, because remember we already have a level "Mastermind" by MazuLems (or whichever one comes later will be part 2). [Which I'm not against personally. There will be a Four Lemmings and a Funeral part 1 and 2]

That level looks pretty nice btw! reminds me a little of valley of chameleons from DoveLems
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline Crane

  • Posts: 1081
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2014, 02:45:52 AM »
That was the other reason why I wondered about a rename... because of the presence of "Mastermined", which in my opinion is a classic.

As stated, the name "Mastermind" came about because of the variety of tools and their required uses, and the fact that there are at least two blocks of scenery that resemble brains.

Heck, being a community pack, I'd be up for asking the community for suggestions on the level name.

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 12399
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2014, 07:06:39 AM »
I could be remembering wrong, but I'm sure I remember "Pipe Dream" as being the title of one of Insane Steve's more notable levels too?

"Jailbreak!" is also the title of one of my levels (Cunning 12 from Lemmings Plus II), though it's not nearly as notable of a level so it probably isn't such a big deal. (And hey, Cunning 15's title is the same as one of the levels from ONML. :P)
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline Crane

  • Posts: 1081
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2014, 02:12:39 PM »
Ah yes, I forgot about "Pipe Dream" - feel free to come up with an alternative name for that too!

Offline Proxima

  • Posts: 4570
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2014, 04:52:55 PM »
I don't remember an Insane Steve level titled Pipe Dream (and looking through his sets on the Lemmings Level Database I don't find one) -- though I have used that title for my Lix single-player remake of the 2-player level The Pipe Room  8)

Offline Nepster

  • Posts: 1829
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2014, 05:14:19 PM »
Another set of solutions:
Jailbreak: The backroute still works and is in fact simpler than it was before. What about moving the hatch nearer to the wall?
Mastermind: Better, but it still cries "Backroute!" to me. Note that I haven't used the miner, which allows for quite some flexibility in the solution.
Pipe Dream: A much neater solution now, but I have quite a few spare skills.

Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2754
  • relax.
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2014, 10:14:09 PM »
There is a Pipe Dream currently in the pack by Shvegait, but I'm thinking about removing that one. It's not outstanding and has some similarities to other levels. Pipe Dream isn't a bad name imo. Survival of the fittest is a nice name too.

Here are a few new levels for testing purposes, if you play them could you give me an idea to their difficulty?
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/72760678/newLevels.zip
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline Crane

  • Posts: 1081
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2014, 10:23:38 PM »
I can't actually move the trapdoor closer to the wall because it makes the intended solution impossible.  I've played around with the chain a bit more in the hope I can make something work.  Fingers crossed.

I'm not planning on submitting "Lemming Pattern Baldness" to the community pack, as its quirk is very similar to the one used in "Don't leave me hanging".

Alternative names so far:

- Pipe Dream:  Overflow
- Mastermind:  Survival of the Fittest

I'll take a look at the maps you provided.  I have a couple of things to send to you too.

P.S. You are right that every official solution should use all of the tools (it's possible to complete JAILBREAK! in regular Lemmini without the Floater though).

ERROR: Incorrect version of Mastermind uploaded - see updated attachment below.

Offline Crane

  • Posts: 1081
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2014, 11:27:06 PM »
Here are my solutions to the new levels.  To play the replays, just run a fresh copy of SuperLemmini, add the external level, and then load the replay.

- Everything you don't need:  And four things I do need!  Requires some precise timing and positioning.  Blocker placement can unfortunately trap lemmings in the steel wall sometimes, and stopping the lemmings from interfering with the final builder can get annoying, whether you're trying to use a delay tactic or by bridging the tunnel in such a way that the blocker can blow a hole through it.

- From The Brink:  Nice little puzzle level.  Easy to use too many blockers or bombers.

- Hey that's not cool guys:  I should have known there were compressors there - the terrain even gave me clues!  My solution at least is possibly a little glitchy, since I utilise a basher's back-swing to stop a Climber.

- I am I.S. (Part 2):  Aah, always love homages to "I am A.T.".  The miner-in-the-one-way-wall trick in SuperLemmini is much more generous, since it works in places other than the top of a wall, and hence I was able to save 100% by using excess miners on stragglers.

Offline Crane

  • Posts: 1081
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2014, 03:39:26 AM »
Sorry, I uploaded an old .LVL file by mistake - I was wondering why the size was so small.  This is the correct one for "Mastermind".


Offline Nepster

  • Posts: 1829
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2014, 06:52:52 PM »
@Crane: Next set of backroutes :P. There are two replays of Mastermind, which differ only in the second half of the solution. For Jailbreak note, that I haven't used the floater. Thus there is still quite some flexibility in my solution to adapt to your backroute fixes.

@Mobius: Some replays for you as well. I did not play "Everything you don't need" because I remember that the solution requires an insane amount of precision. "Brink" and "Cool Guys" are good puzzles (though I don't know whether my solutions are quite intended), but "I am I.S." is slightly annoying, because the last miner creates a wall when hitting the steel, that lets other lemmings turn around.

Offline Crane

  • Posts: 1081
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2014, 08:22:15 PM »
Okay, I'm trying something a little different for JAILBREAK! this time, but if you're still able to work around the obstruction, then I may have to consider the level broken and withdraw it until I can work out how best to resolve it.

Pipe Dream was relatively straightforward to fix and still looks fairly neat.  Mastermind I hope is now fixed too (and I have to be careful because several times I've hit 400 terrain pieces!)

Intricate levels always need the most work.

P.S. The obstruction in JAILBREAK! may need lowering slightly, but it depends if it's possible to get around it with the Builders you have.

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 12399
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2014, 08:59:39 PM »
Pipe Dream was relatively straightforward to fix and still looks fairly neat.  Mastermind I hope is now fixed too (and I have to be careful because several times I've hit 400 terrain pieces!)

Pretty sure the 400-piece limit only applies to Lemmix / DOS. I'm fairly sure Lemmini can handle more than that, and know for sure SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix can (NeoLemmix's limit is 1000, while I don't think SuperLemmini has any limit).
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline Crane

  • Posts: 1081
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2014, 01:09:36 AM »
I think I backrouted "From the Brink", since Nepster's replay ends with 1 Climber and 1 Floater remaining, while my replay concludes with 3 Climbers, 2 Floaters, 3 Blockers and a Basher remaining.  Even if you make it splat distance below that lower container, you can switch out the Bomber for a Basher followed by a Blocker (and another Climber if you need a Lemming to break out of the horde).

My solution of "Hey, that's not cool guys" is glitchy at best, whereas Nepster's looks like the intended solution, assuming the Climber and Floaters are red herrings.

Offline Nepster

  • Posts: 1829
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #23 on: November 14, 2014, 11:03:31 PM »
Jailbreak: Sorry, but here yet another solution that is unlikely to be intended. I definitely think that this level could become very interesting, so please don't withdraw it forever.
Pipe Dream: Not much difference to before. In addition a completely different solution. Btw is there any chance to add some steel pieces to the bubble style in SuperLemmini? It was a nasty surprise, when I first hit the steel area in this level.
Mastermind: Could you please check, whether you uploaded the correct version? It seems that all my previous solutions to this level should work here as well.

Cool Guys: If my solution is indeed the intended one, then I would recommend removing one basher. This would (hopefully) force the player to add another slight twist to the solution.

Offline Crane

  • Posts: 1081
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2014, 11:09:53 PM »
Oops, that was an ANCIENT version of Mastermind.  I should probably delete that one.  Anyhow, here is the correct version.

It looks like JAILBREAK! is almost fixed.  If that platform that you mine through is metal, would that fix it?

As for Pipe Dream... sorry about the steel area.  I hoped I could get away with it considering there's a trap there.

Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2754
  • relax.
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2014, 11:22:25 PM »
Jailbreak: Sorry, but here yet another solution that is unlikely to be intended. I definitely think that this level could become very interesting, so please don't withdraw it forever.
Pipe Dream: Not much difference to before. In addition a completely different solution. Btw is there any chance to add some steel pieces to the bubble style in SuperLemmini? It was a nasty surprise, when I first hit the steel area in this level.
Mastermind: Could you please check, whether you uploaded the correct version? It seems that all my previous solutions to this level should work here as well.

Cool Guys: If my solution is indeed the intended one, then I would recommend removing one basher. This would (hopefully) force the player to add another slight twist to the solution.

I will be adding steel to the bubble set.
I also concur, that Jailbreak looks to be a very cool levle, don't withdraw it, even if you have the change the ultimate solution a little.
Without looking I doubt your solution to Hey that's not cool is intended. The actual solution is not glitchy at all and (very) deceptively simple. This is sort of a hint but; it only works in SuperLemmini. You need to use both bashers.
I still need to look at all the replays...

@ Cran; I'm not able to watch your replays, or Nepster I'm sorry but would you mind uploading them again when you have time? or just describe the solution to me
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline Crane

  • Posts: 1081
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2014, 11:32:10 PM »
Unless I'm mistaken, to play my replays, all I did was load SuperLemmini, add the relevant external level, and then load the replay.  It sort of requires closing and re-opening SuperLemmini each time though.

Offline Crane

  • Posts: 1081
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #27 on: November 15, 2014, 01:30:11 AM »
Okay, try these for size.  The correct version of Mastermind can be found above.  By the way, how do I access the metal pieces for the bubble tileset?  I used Lemmix before, and have just started using the NeoLemmix editor now.

- Pipe Dream now has a couple of extra suction traps near the start.
- The starting platform on JAILBREAK! is now steel.

Mastermind can be found a few posts up.

EDIT: Suddenly I'm wary of NeoLemmix... it corrupted my version of JAILBREAK! and I had to re-do my changes in Lemmix.  Fixed.

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 12399
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #28 on: November 15, 2014, 04:18:35 AM »
Okay, try these for size.  The correct version of Mastermind can be found above.  By the way, how do I access the metal pieces for the bubble tileset?  I used Lemmix before, and have just started using the NeoLemmix editor now.

-----
EDIT: Suddenly I'm wary of NeoLemmix... it corrupted my version of JAILBREAK! and I had to re-do my changes in Lemmix.  Fixed.

Add them to your SuperLemminiStyles folder before compiling the style. The NeoLemmix Editor doesn't yet have support for SuperLemmini's mods feature, which (I'd imagine) is how the pieces are being added.

As for the corruption - can you send me the corrupted version and tell me what exactly it had done that it shouldn't've, so that I can find the source of the problem? (And also whether you were using the "Lemmini" or "SuperLemmini" style mode). It's possible some issues (especially if it's traditional Lemmini) have slipped under the radar, as the editor so far has mostly only been used for NeoLemmix levels.
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline Crane

  • Posts: 1081
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #29 on: November 15, 2014, 04:56:07 AM »
Oh, I deleted the corrupted version, but I will try to re-create it.  Basically a large number of terrain pieces disappeared.  (This is the Brick tileset)  I was using Superlemmini mode after following the install instructions on the website.

Offline Nepster

  • Posts: 1829
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #30 on: November 15, 2014, 11:44:25 AM »
Here some more replays: Jailbreak has still some issues, cf. the first two replays. They are only about the first part as the rest can be done as in previous solutions (and I was too lazy to do the rest of this level as well).
Another thing I noticed: The time limit in Jailbreak is rather sharp. Usually I have less then 20 seconds left. Perhaps you could relax it a little bit, or does this allow for new backrutes?

@ Cran; I'm not able to watch your replays, or Nepster I'm sorry but would you mind uploading them again when you have time? or just describe the solution to me
I attached my levelpack.ini. Perhaps this helps to watch the replays. The actual replays should still be attached to a previous post of mine.

Without looking I doubt your solution to Hey that's not cool is intended. The actual solution is not glitchy at all and (very) deceptively simple. This is sort of a hint but; it only works in SuperLemmini. You need to use both bashers.
My solution is not glitchy at all and does not rely on SuperLemmini mechanics. But are you talking about the correct level? Cool Guys gives you three bashers, not two.

As for Pipe Dream... sorry about the steel area.  I hoped I could get away with it considering there's a trap there.
Well, I tried to dig down at this part of the level, so the trap didn't worry me at all.

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 12399
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #31 on: November 15, 2014, 12:13:53 PM »
And I take it the level appeared fine while in the editor?
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline Crane

  • Posts: 1081
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #32 on: November 15, 2014, 03:56:27 PM »
Yes, the level appeared fine in the editor, although the validator mentioned that the sizes of steel areas were too small, for steel areas that didn't exist (the indices were out of bounds).

The time limit is indeed rather sharp, but the intended solution does not actually contain the lemmings at all, and the last lemming always reaches the exit with about 30 to 40 seconds to spare.

Offline Crane

  • Posts: 1081
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #33 on: November 15, 2014, 05:02:43 PM »
Right, more adjustments done.  I generally don't like scenery that's there blatantly to stop a backroute, as it can look untidy and also occasionally redirect the player to the correct solution to the point that it becomes obvious.  It should still be possible to build around the obstructions, but theoretically you should then not have enough to complete the level.  Still, here we go.

There's still no metal plates on Pipe Dream, but the trap's housing and the nearby one-way arrows should hopefully make the steel zone slightly excuseable.

Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2754
  • relax.
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #34 on: November 15, 2014, 05:49:38 PM »
Without looking I doubt your solution to Hey that's not cool is intended. The actual solution is not glitchy at all and (very) deceptively simple. This is sort of a hint but; it only works in SuperLemmini. You need to use both bashers.
My solution is not glitchy at all and does not rely on SuperLemmini mechanics. But are you talking about the correct level? Cool Guys gives you three bashers, not two.

Sorry, I meant 3 bashers, you need all 3.

I'm sorry but you're going to have to explain the solution to me via PM. I cannot get replays to work correctly. I have to sit down and figure it out for a while. [when I load From the Brink and load your replay for From the Brink, the level "Impasse" comes up wtf?]
I am using the latest version btw

Alternatively you can use Old Lemmini if your solution works in it.
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline Crane

  • Posts: 1081
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #35 on: November 15, 2014, 06:22:46 PM »
This is a 2-basher solution to "Hey that's not cool guys" (using Nepster's levelpack.ini file)

Offline Nepster

  • Posts: 1829
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #36 on: November 15, 2014, 07:39:54 PM »
Solutions to the newest versions of Mastermind and Pipe Dream. If I see it correctly, my solutions jailbreakV4_2.rpl and jailbreakV4_3.rpl should still work in the newest version of Jailbreak. Intended?

Moreover (Old)Lemmini solutions to From the Brink and Cool Guys. With Cool Guys I recorded the 2-basher solution I had in mind, which differs somewhat from Crane's.

I'm sorry but you're going to have to explain the solution to me via PM. I cannot get replays to work correctly. I have to sit down and figure it out for a while. [when I load From the Brink and load your replay for From the Brink, the level "Impasse" comes up wtf?]
I am using the latest version btw
I downloaded my SuperLemmini version about a week ago, so I hope it is still the current one. Have you tried the following: Create a new subfolder of the folder "levels" called something like "9_Test". Then put in my file levelpack.ini and the level files of your and Crane's levels. Then after starting SuperLemmini you should not need to load the levels specifically, but can select them directly. This way loading replays does not create any problems (at least with me).

Offline Crane

  • Posts: 1081
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #37 on: November 15, 2014, 09:56:48 PM »
I don't see those particular versions of the replay available for download.  Do you have one that's known to work on the latest iteration of JAILBREAK?

Nepster... you and your ability to use every hole or bit of terrain available!  In the meantime, here are the next iterations of Pipe Dream and Mastermind.  Hopefully my patching is not obvious.  Initially I put an extra steel plate in the culprit area of Mastermind, but then I discovered that increasing the size of the void solved the problem just as well.  Good luck.

Offline Crane

  • Posts: 1081
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #38 on: November 15, 2014, 10:14:10 PM »
Erk, ignore that version of Pipe Dream.  I missed something.  Here we go.

Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2754
  • relax.
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #39 on: November 15, 2014, 10:37:24 PM »
That was a very clever solution to From the Brink! Might as well leave it in, its not too different from the intended.
[note: the original actually has two less bombers and no floaters and the intended solution is highly insane, (no offense)] We're not going with that for the pack though.

Hey that's not cool guys; I think I can fix that. This level has been fraught with many backroutes that's why I figured your solution was one. [Don't know why I didn't think of this sooner?]
This is ISteve's level, so if you're reading this ISteve, take a look and tell me if you don't like that change.
Use SuperLemmini this time.
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline Nepster

  • Posts: 1829
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #40 on: November 15, 2014, 10:46:16 PM »
@Crane: Some new (or rather modified) solutions. Turns out that the steel block in Mastermind would have been the better choice.

@Mobius: In case you don't know, a remake of the original level with its highly insane solution is part of ClamLix (and one of its last level iirc).

EDIT: New solution to Cool Guys, which I would not call "deceptively simple".

Offline Crane

  • Posts: 1081
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #41 on: November 16, 2014, 12:28:43 AM »
Ah geez, nice going!  Still, your backroutes are slowly starting to resemble the intended solutions more and more.  Hopefully I can get them all patched before I hit 10 versions like with Thanatos Gambit!

Right, let's see if they work now!  I just hope I haven't opened up a backroute on "JAILBREAK!".

Offline Crane

  • Posts: 1081
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #42 on: November 16, 2014, 01:18:19 AM »
Just to clarify... the intended solutions for all three levels use all the tools, some maybe not in the way you would think.

If Superlemmini ever gets the ability to support hints (I'll put a request in), these would be the hints for the levels.

- Pipe Dream: Floaters and Builders are not the only way to slow a Lemming down.
- JAILBREAK!: Escaped convicts don't like being contained.
- Mastermind: Use all of your knowledge to space out the pathfinders, and prove yourself the Lemmings master.

(Both JAILBREAK! and Mastermind have a fairly high difficulty of execution)

Offline Nepster

  • Posts: 1829
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #43 on: November 16, 2014, 03:50:55 PM »
Some more backroutes (with spare skills). I don't think the top route in Mastermind is completely removed yet, but I haven't really tried it yet.

Offline Crane

  • Posts: 1081
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #44 on: November 16, 2014, 11:39:18 PM »
Next versions.

Offline Crane

  • Posts: 1081
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #45 on: November 17, 2014, 11:46:44 AM »
Here are my original replays for möbius' choice levels, modified so they work with Nepster's levelpack.ini file.

Comment about "Hey that's not cool guys":
Quote from: Spoiler
You might want to set the exit to be "no overwrite", because it kind of gives away the fact that building over it is not correct.

Offline Nepster

  • Posts: 1829
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #46 on: November 17, 2014, 05:24:27 PM »
Next iteration.

Offline Crane

  • Posts: 1081
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #47 on: November 17, 2014, 11:53:24 PM »
JAILBREAK's solution was just cheeky, and Pipe Dream was short-sighted on my part.

Okay, let's see how this does.

Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2754
  • relax.
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #48 on: November 18, 2014, 01:32:14 AM »
I think I take back my decision about the first pipe dream, I forgot how difficult that level was when you first encounter it. But I think it's misplaced; it could go a littler earlier.


Here are a bunch of new levels to backroute! yay

[note please play "Life as a Worm" in Lemmix. It's plain easy in Lemmini beacuse the stair stops them. I uploaded this level back when we made the first version of the pack but nobody solved this level!]

Since I have a "survival of the fittest" here we can name Crane's level "part 2" if you decide to go with that title
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 12399
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #49 on: November 18, 2014, 02:43:58 AM »
I had a go on your "Life as a Worm" level; nice level, has me stumped. My only possible idea is (unless it was meant for NeoLemmix, in which case it's very trivial to solve there due to stricter terrain checks on climbers)...

Quote
That the solution involves that trick where a climber repeatedly tries to climb the edge of a basher's tunnel.

However, I can't actually seem to set that up in this level.

In case it matters: What mechanics did you use for this? I've been playing under CustLemm mechanics, should I be using Orig or OhNo instead? (Not that I can see any reason it'd make a difference on this level.)

EDIT: I've tried some more, and still no luck. I can come up with a hundred different ways to save 66%, but none to save 100%. I've never been the best at *solving* levels, but yeah... this is definitely a really good challenge!
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline Crane

  • Posts: 1081
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #50 on: November 18, 2014, 08:39:14 AM »
Normally, a "(Part Two)" is a revisiting of an existing level with a slight change of scenery and/or tools rather than a completely new level.  However:

Pipe Dream:

- Overflow
- Burst Main

For Mastermind, I guess it might have to be a "Part Two" if it clashes with "Mastermined", or a "Survival of the Fittest", unless someone has a better name, possibly something with "Final" or "Last" in it if it is very close to the end.

Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2754
  • relax.
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #51 on: November 18, 2014, 10:33:54 PM »
I had a go on your "Life as a Worm" level; nice level, has me stumped. My only possible idea is (unless it was meant for NeoLemmix, in which case it's very trivial to solve there due to stricter terrain checks on climbers)...

Quote
That the solution involves that trick where a climber repeatedly tries to climb the edge of a basher's tunnel.

However, I can't actually seem to set that up in this level.

In case it matters: What mechanics did you use for this? I've been playing under CustLemm mechanics, should I be using Orig or OhNo instead? (Not that I can see any reason it'd make a difference on this level.)

EDIT: I've tried some more, and still no luck. I can come up with a hundred different ways to save 66%, but none to save 100%. I've never been the best at *solving* levels, but yeah... this is definitely a really good challenge!

I've used CustLemm but I don't think it matters. I actually spoke to Ellischant (the author) and he doesn't remember the solution so it may very well be impossible, in any case, it intrigued me a great deal and inspired my own level "Last Lemming Standing"
Your first idea there might very well be the solution; but that can be really annoying to pull off...


Normally, a "(Part Two)" is a revisiting of an existing level with a slight change of scenery and/or tools rather than a completely new level.  However:

Pipe Dream:

- Overflow
- Burst Main

For Mastermind, I guess it might have to be a "Part Two" if it clashes with "Mastermined", or a "Survival of the Fittest", unless someone has a better name, possibly something with "Final" or "Last" in it if it is very close to the end.

You're right; "part1/2" isn't always appropriate but here the levels are similar in most of the cases, Four Lemmings and Funeral for example; both are small compact crystal levels with 4 lemmings/save 3. And Survival of the Fittest; both of these are levels that span the entire screen and are like a long journey of sorts (the snow level which I just uploaded is a lot easier of course).
I prefer Survival of the Fittest over Mastermind, personally. But since the Mastermin(e)d title isn't really exactly the same a part 1/2 isn't really needed I guess. Although it's a little confusing. I'm afraid I don't have any other title suggestions but I might think of some.

I like the title Overflow.
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline Crane

  • Posts: 1081
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #52 on: November 19, 2014, 01:26:57 AM »
I need to shift Pipe Dream / Overflow to the middle of the playfield and add some more scenery in the whitespace (or blackspace in this case!).

JAILBREAK! and Mastermind / Survival of the Fittest are pretty full of scenery already and should be fine as is.

P.S. Any luck solving the latest versions of the levels yet? I can post up my official, intended solutions if not.  I do confess that I worry that Mastermind / Survival of the Fittest is extremely difficult to work out and not always fair on execution.

Offline ccexplore

  • Posts: 5311
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #53 on: November 19, 2014, 02:08:56 AM »
I've used CustLemm but I don't think it matters. I actually spoke to Ellischant (the author) and he doesn't remember the solution so it may very well be impossible, in any case, it intrigued me a great deal and inspired my own level "Last Lemming Standing"
Your first idea there might very well be the solution; but that can be really annoying to pull off...

mobius kinda pulled me into this over IRC, but so far I'm pretty much coming to same conclusions as namida, if we're talking about Lemmix-based mechanics.  In fact I'm not even sure whether the timing can ever work out with that trick in this case.  If I have time, I'll continue to think about the level and see whether I can either provide a reasonably convincing argument that the level can't be solved, or maybe find a hole in such an argument and actually solve the level as a result.

Quote from: goes into the trick so in spoiler-text
Excluding some crazy setup I haven't thought of yet, "timing" pretty much boils down to where the basher's standing at relative to the blocker, at the moment the blocker gets freed by the basher.  Since a basher advanced 5 pixels per stroke, there are basically just 5 different possibilities.  There are a couple of details I haven't accounted for, but ultimately I believe the number of possibilities aren't that large and can each be checked manually with an appropriate test level.

Based on how I know the trick works and what I'm observing, I believe the main problem applying the trick to this level, is that when you free the blocker with the basher, it starts falling down more or less immediately.  In contrast, the way the trick works, the basher fools the climber into transitioning into the "finish climbing to the top" state (aka "hoister" in Lemmix programming), whose animation eats up some time (8 frames I think) before the lemming finally transitions to "walker standing on thin air" and then finally starts falling down.  So what I think would happen in this level is that the freed blocker would fall, walk, and reach the end of bashing tunnel sooner than the case where the timing works out perfectly to sustain the trick.  And reaching the end of tunnel too soon obviously means the next time the climber climbs, he'd hit his head before the basher is able to remove enough terrain to sustain the trick.

Offline ccexplore

  • Posts: 5311
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #54 on: November 19, 2014, 03:39:48 AM »
The testing does show issues with applying the trick:  even in best case it seems like the trick can only be "sustained" for a small number of times before things go out of sync.

Without using the suggested trick it doesn't seem like there are any other way to solve the level, at least I haven't seen any yet.  Here are the "arguments" (thus the refutation of any of them provides the possibility of a solution):

Quote from: spoilers highlight to read

1) Seems like the two bashers have to be used in the two obvious places--one in order to reach the exit, and the other to lead the walker (there must be one since you have 3 lemmings but only 2 climbers, and I don't think you can just build yourself over the obstacle near the entrance) to the exit path.

2) In order to get to the place where you need to bash, someone must climb over, and then somehow turn around (or turn some other lemming around) facing left.  Seems like builders will be required for this--using blockers doesn't really help since 100% requirement means the blocker has to be freed eventually, and then you're basically back to the same situation (or worse) with needing to turn that freed blocker around.

3) Seems like you actually need both builders to handle the turn-around issue.  Building once from the edge just barely connects the bridge to the wall, without turning the builder around.  Falling down the edge to build to the wall, you don't seem to have enough builders to get back up.  Moreover, I'm not seeing a way of using both builders that result in that side of the level permanently able to turn climbers around.  (And yes, I've tried building in various pixel-precise places on top of the wall--you either only turn the builder around, or the builder himself gets stuck up there with no way out.)

And with those points above, you seem to be left with only the method namida's trying, which doesn't seem to work out timing-wise based on my testing, at least not in any straightforward way.  Given how fiddly the timing requirements are anyway (if even possible at all), it is questionable whether such a solution should be forced upon your players anyway.

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 12399
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #55 on: November 19, 2014, 03:43:37 AM »
As a note, I did check if the level had any hidden-in-terrain or invisible exits (it doesn't), if any of the water was fake (it isn't), or if any of the steel is fake (some actually is, but only in places that you can't get to anyway; nothing that would impact the solution).

And yep, I tried pretty much everything you mentioned there. The only other thought I have is that getting the timing might possibly involve blocking on the basher's step mid-bash; but I can't find any timing / combination of placements that allows you to do this anyway, let alone actually try any solution based on it.
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline Nepster

  • Posts: 1829
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #56 on: November 19, 2014, 08:08:53 PM »
Here are more solutions to Crane's levels.
My previous cheeky solution to Jailbreak still works (though I did not include it in the replays): Use one more builder to create the stair-wall. Then we have to do the rest with one builder less. But building from the starting platform the wall on the right can be replaced by a climber-bomber.
Moreover I attached a similarly cheeky solution to Mastermind using again the top route.
 

Offline Crane

  • Posts: 1081
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #57 on: November 19, 2014, 09:32:27 PM »
The Climber-Bomber is actually part of the intended solution.  I am starting to lose hope a bit though that I can patch everything without opening up something else.

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 12399
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #58 on: November 19, 2014, 09:57:16 PM »
The Climber-Bomber is actually part of the intended solution.  I am starting to lose hope a bit though that I can patch everything without opening up something else.

Definitely not if you have Nepster testing. He's pretty much the master of backrouting levels. :)
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2754
  • relax.
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #59 on: November 19, 2014, 10:29:28 PM »
sorry for putting people through trying to solve an impossible level, but thank for testing it. I deem that if ccx cannot solve it; it's unsolvable. Which is a shame because for some reason it just looked like a level with a really cool solution.


The Climber-Bomber is actually part of the intended solution.  I am starting to lose hope a bit though that I can patch everything without opening up something else.

It's especially difficult with complex levels like these.
I plan to play the levels soon and haven't watched any replays yet. But so far I can see that they're good levels. But maybe you can just lax the solution a bit? I realize allowing for leeway or multiple solutions makes the level easier, but it can still be a tough level even so. In Jailbreak, for example, I can see at first glance certain interesting things that need or should be done. And it's not immediately obvious Any time that is the case; it's a good level. Well maybe not but... I don't really know what I'm talking about. They may still go near the end of the pack.

-----
I've gotten 5 tutorial levels. I still need a blocker and basher tutorial. If anyone has any suggestions.
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline Crane

  • Posts: 1081
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #60 on: November 20, 2014, 02:37:27 AM »
Well let's see if these versions help things at all.  In the end I may have to accept that I can't patch every backroute, although if one is significantly more out of the way than the intended solution, I may leave it in, even if it involves tools left over.

As for the Climber-Bomber thing, in Lemmini there was more leeway because climbing Bombers exploded immediately (no "Oh no" animation), whereas for Lemmix and SuperLemmini that is not the case, and made the intended solution impossible because the lemming behind was too close.  It is doable now though, and I'm probably giving away way too much information now!

Pipe Dream / Overflow is a whole order of magnitude easier than JAILBREAK! and Mastermind / Survival of the Fittest and doesn't need that much precision really.  The intended solution is not entirely obvious but there's nothing truly outlandish, I don't think.

Oh, with JAILBREAK!, can you confirm if the building trick still works and you have enough builders to finish the level?

Offline Nepster

  • Posts: 1829
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #61 on: November 20, 2014, 06:07:58 PM »
@Crane: Mainly new solutions to Pipe Dream and Mastermind. The two solutions to Jailbreak are the same as in V9/V10, but adapted to the modified terrain.

Moreover I discussed with mobius some other old Lemmix levels. I came up with your level Deep Freeze from Garjen05.dat (though at that point I wasn't aware that you were its creator), but with modified save requirement 76/80 instead of 60/80. In my opinion, this should turn your level into a challenging multitasking level. So if that's fine with you, I would like to propose this level for consideration as a possible level to be included in an update to Revenge of the Lemmings.


@Mobius:
Here are replays of the second batch of levels you presented here (and extended levelpack.ini attached as well).
You have been fooled: Nice medium difficulty level. The "skills you can't live without" challenge would be very interesting here.
Minimal Trouble: Either I am backrouting this level or the solution is somewhat disappointing.
One small problem: Good level, even if there is a part of the level, where I can't find any explanation why the terrain is precisely like it is now.
Oven door: You should modify one trap to actually kill lemmings and the lower left part needs very precise positioning. Apart from these issues a relatively easy level, because there is not much one can actually try.
Primal Technology: At least my solution is not really interesting. Actually the most intersting fact is, that this level plays completely different in old Lemmini, where it is still solvable but requires a rather different approach. Btw. the trap seems to do nothing at all.
Someone must help us: If I remember correctly some comment I read some time ago, my solution is not completely intended. Good level though.
Survival of the fittest: Easy level, where almost any approach works. There are long waiting periods, where lemmings just have to walk around.
Angle Angel: I can guess the intended solution, but there are easier ways to solve it. The one-way walls are just weird.
Daedalus: It would be somewhat disappointing, if my solution is intended.
Shaken Tower: Again there are many many approaches that might (and actually should) work. Easy level, that is not terribly interesting.


@backrouting issue:
In my experience it is very hard to force a specific (convoluted) solution in levels with many builders (like Mastermind or Jailbreak), because there are many tricks you can do with builders and most of them can be achieved regardless of the terrain you are confronted with. This seems to make it very hard to remove the possibility to apply certain methods (cf. the various iterations of Jailbreak).

Definitely not if you have Nepster testing. He's pretty much the master of backrouting levels. :)
Thanks, but it is likely that I am just spending much more time (read: too much time) on solving/backrouting levels here.

Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2754
  • relax.
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #62 on: November 20, 2014, 10:00:52 PM »
Definitely not if you have Nepster testing. He's pretty much the master of backrouting levels. :)
Thanks, but it is likely that I am just spending much more time (read: too much time) on solving/backrouting levels here.

it is very much appreciated. Everyone else who can is either busy or not interested. I myself am very slow at solving levels.


before I look you most likely backrouted Ellischant's levels (Minimal and Primal, Daedalus). Thanks for the replays so I can hopefully fix them. The intended solutions are on his youtube channel and they are both unique imo. At least we don't have any levels quite like them in the pack. Daedalus is the only one I'm not sure about, I just threw that one in there to get opinions.

I'm still looking through levels myself btw.

I found the Shaken Tower to be somewhat difficult...
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline Crane

  • Posts: 1081
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #63 on: November 22, 2014, 01:08:57 AM »
You have my permission to modify the requirements for "Deep Freeze" if you feel it isn't too much of a repeat of "Lem Dunk".  In the meantime, let's see if I can finally patch JAILBREAK! and Mastermind, despite the builders!

Offline Nepster

  • Posts: 1829
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #64 on: November 22, 2014, 05:30:53 PM »
Good point with Lem Dunk. But even though the solutions have a few similarities, Lem Dunk needs no multitasking at all and allows the player to hold the crowds between blockers. Try to do this with the attached version of Deep Freeze ;).
Apart from raising the save requirements, I had to put the RR to 15 (to avoid one simplified solution). Moreover I moved the hatches and the water a few pixels so that the level is now completely symmetrical. I hope these modifications are OK as well?

As for the other levels: The new version of Jailbreak has opened up new and old backroutes. One of the new ones is attached. As for the old ones, it seems very likely that a builder-wall can be erected on top of the bricks to contain the lemming crowd.
Mastermind's solution is a slight modification of my previous solution.
In Pipe Dream I have realized that in some situations the hidden steel area actually helps you to solve the level.

Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2754
  • relax.
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #65 on: November 22, 2014, 07:21:30 PM »
Here are alterations to Primal Technology and Minimal Trouble.
Note: you must have the bubble steel installed for Primal.
I didn't look at Daedalus yet.

Also here is a Lemmix levelpack which is very puzzling. The levels look nice and are quite difficult. [except for the first level]

At this point, I am again thinking about making more than 1 levelpack. Because there are just so many levels to choose from... Plus there's Cheapo which has tons of good levels and I've only included Proxima's levels from there.

edit: also one more level which shouldn't be too hard but I'm having difficulty solving it.
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline Nepster

  • Posts: 1829
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #66 on: November 22, 2014, 09:22:22 PM »
Could you please check Minimal Trouble. The current version has a very obvious backroute.

Where can I get the bubble steel?

One hint for the extra level:
Quote from: spoilers highlight to read

The main problem is to turn climbers around. This can be solved using a basher and a digger (even without resorting to glitchy behaviour).

As for the t3tesla level pack:
Quote from: spoilers highlight to read

Lemming Funhouse: Actually not that much easier than most of the other levels.
Dangerzone: An amazingly simple, but well-hidden solution. The best level of the pack.
Suicidal tendencies: Has a nice 97% solution.
Rocky Road: Has a rather simple solution/backroute. 96% is possible, without using all builders.
Lemming in a situation: Hidden trap :evil:. Have seen more interesting levels.
There's madness: Will never work in (Super)Lemmini.
Dr. Lemminggood: Has two solutions saving 96%, but both rather uninteresting.
This corrosion: Only works in Lemmix, where it can be solved with only 3 skills.
Towering Problem: Only works in Custlemm (and not even in Lemmix).
Ice Ice Lemming: My solution feels very much like a backroute, but there is simply not enough time for anything else??? And I don't talk about direct drops to the exit, which works as well.

Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2754
  • relax.
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #67 on: November 23, 2014, 07:00:29 PM »
ok, that was a really dumb oversight. Here's a fixed version.


Also attached is my custom styles; just replace your styles folder with it. This includes the steel plus a few extra graphics in rock, dirt, and I forget what else.
[if you don't want those other things, just go to the bubble folder; find the steel but also copy/past the ini file, you need that too]
custom styles: forum doesn't seem to allow me to attach them for some reason:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/72760678/Customstyles.zip

Also I uploaded yet another version of Primal because it occurred to me there might have been an oversight in the last one.

Also a fix for the Daedalus.

thanx for the comments on t3tesla's pack. If you have replays could you send them to me please?

Quote from: spoilers highlight to read

I may have gotten the  same back route on Ice Ice Lemming. didn't even think about the direct drop.
Trying to go down below, the closest I came I think was 10 seconds short.

-I also solved Dangerzone; was not actually difficult at all. I don't know why it seemed so impossible at first.

you can just tell me the solution to "Towering Problem". there's obviously some bizarre glitch involved, it totally baffles me.

Quote
Is it the nuke glitch?

Is it a mistake that the steel is fake in "Maddness"?

----------
I was thinking about removing "Easy when you know how" the brick level; but in case that I don't I should really change the title. Any suggestions?

I solved the brain level now, [a very interesting level!] except the time limit seems kind of harsh but useless?
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline Crane

  • Posts: 1081
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #68 on: November 23, 2014, 11:05:12 PM »
I've just realised that an early change I made to Pipe Dream has made the official solution somewhat convoluted compared to the intended solution.  Hopefully I won't need to do many more changes to get them right.

Personally I'm wondering if Mastermind / Survival of the Fittest shouldn't be included in this pack, not just because it's proving to be near-impossible to patch the backroutes possible with the builders available.

Offline Nepster

  • Posts: 1829
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #69 on: November 24, 2014, 05:22:07 PM »
Here are some newly made replays for t3tesla.

When I first played this level pack, I literally spend hours trying Dangerzone and then about the same time wondering, why I haven't thought of the solution earlier.  :)
You are correct on Towering Problem - at least that was my way to solve it.
I never even realized the fake steel in Madness, so it's likely an oversight.

I solved the brain level with about 30 seconds left on my second try, so the time limit is not sooooo harsh. Nevertheless I cannot think of a reason to keep it.

EDIT: New solution of Ice Ice lemming, which is less likely a backroute and very hard on the time.

Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2754
  • relax.
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #70 on: November 24, 2014, 11:12:13 PM »
I love these kinds of levels; they seem very difficult but turn out to have multiple solutions!

I found "Lemmings in a Situation" to be of similar nature to DangerZone; yesterday it seemed so impossible but today I was like; wait.. oh yeah... duh.

Your solution was actually better than mine; I think mine wasn't intended. It seems like your not supposed to go through the left most holed beam [since 1 basher doesn't cut it]. But then mine used all the skills and yours didn't...

Quote

I sent a climber from the left side and used 3 bashers plus the miner (on that left beam). Build up to the middle platform (From the left.)
After blocking on the right, build from the bottom stair, then bomb the blocker and let everyone go to the right.

I found the same solution to Suicidal Tendencies except saving 1 less cause I didn't think of the time saver. Curiously though; both of these solutions save a climber so I wonder if it's not intended.

Madness in the method can be adapted to work in Lemmini. The climber glitch isn't strictly necessary. and I will cause I love this level as well. (I'm loving like every level in this pack (except the glitchy ones). The trick used here is again, simple but elegant and difficult to see. I'll fix the steel as well.

The one I'm most curious about it ROCKY ROAD which is clearly a major backroute...

I like almost all of these and feel like adapting the non-working ones into something useful.

Any ideas for titles for these levels?
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2754
  • relax.
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #71 on: November 25, 2014, 11:17:09 AM »
Glad nobody downloaded Minimal Trouble because it was still messed up  :XD:  :XD:
Here it is; at least without any stupid obvious oversights this time:

[There should be only 1 basher in the correct version] Also; for some reason it works as intended in SuperLemmini but not in Lemmix.
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline Nepster

  • Posts: 1829
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #72 on: November 25, 2014, 10:04:13 PM »
Lemmings in a situation: For me this level was much easier than Dangerzone. An additional advantage of your solution is, that is uses all three hatches.

Suicidal Tendencies: There is another easier(?) solution, which uses both climbers. Nevertheless removing this second solution will be somewhat difficult, if one wants to keep our first solution hidden. Perhaps lowering the rock floor several pixels suffices?

Ice Ice Lemming: I have thought a little about this level, assuming that my last solution is at least close to the intended one. To remove the others should not be hard. Direct drops won't work in SuperLemmini anyway and for the other solution, one could move the small steel block (which is floating over the water) a few pixels to the right.
The time limit is more of a problem (as we cannot pause for time as in CustLemm). Nevertheless one should gain about 4 seconds by removing one steel block from the steel platform on the left. Moreover moving the exit (together with its steel platform) to the left should gain another few seconds. All this together will likely result in the optimal solution having about 6-7 seconds spare, which I think is pretty OK for a 1-minute level.

Minimal Trouble: I don't see the problem with this level in Lemmix? And why the one-way walls?

Primal Technology: My new solution definitely would not have worked in the first version.

Daedalus: Assuming my new solution is somewhat close to the intended one, this level will need a few changes to ease the execution of the solution and some other changes to remove the necessity of several tries to convince the player, that some approaches cannot work.
Changes of the first type:
- Turning around a lemming with a builder at the rightmost water needs pixel-precise positioning.
- Digging down from the right hatch requires good positioning for the lemming to survive the fall.
Changes of the second type:
- The second lemming from the left hatch will always fall to death, even if the first lemming digs down at the optimal position. But this is a matter of very few pixels...
- If a lemming from the right hatch digs down, the second lemming will not survive the fall (by 1 pixel!!), no matter where the digger starts.
- A lemming from the right hatch, which is walking to the left cannot bridge the gap from the wooden platform to the steel wall. But the remaining gap may only be 1 low-res pixel large (and perhaps even 1 high-res pixel is possible).

Any ideas for titles for these levels?
Leaving them as they are? ;)

Offline ccexplore

  • Posts: 5311
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #73 on: November 25, 2014, 11:27:14 PM »
What's up with some of the levels recently mentioned in this thread using the exact same names as official ONML levels??? ???

Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2754
  • relax.
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #74 on: November 26, 2014, 12:46:23 AM »
What's up with some of the levels recently mentioned in this thread using the exact same names as official ONML levels??? ???

I really don't know. No matter the reason; that's why I will change them; I want original titles, not ones already used in the official game.

I did contact t3tesla btw, but with the PM email notification system being down who knows if/when he'll realize it.

@Nepster: didn't look at your replays yet, I will soon. Also I plan on playing Crane's levels finally.
the one-way walls in Minimal Trouble were just a product of my stupidity. I've removed them.

EDIT: *sigh* the replay for Minimal Trouble is not working again. [this time when I load the level it looks fine but when I load the replay an OLDER version of the level comes up.] since this is a simple level you could just write your solution if it's not too much trouble.
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2754
  • relax.
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #75 on: November 26, 2014, 02:38:11 AM »
@Crane: another backroute for Pipe Dream. (saving 100% no less, which feels like an accomplishment, the level seems very daunting at first) I hope I used the right version, the last one uploaded in this thread (I'm pretty sure...)

Some comments:
Quote from: spoilers highlight to read
the terrain on the left is designed in such a way that it allows you to dig, then mine so that the rest turn around but it's a little annoyingly precise to pull off. [maybe not that much. It's difficult to tell because I'm always tired and grumpy when I get home and play Lemmings...]If this is intended, could it be made to be easier? If not, then another minor change is all would take to remove that.

I feel like part of the intended solution is to have a climber go up from the left, since the bubble wall there is flat. Also the climber in my sol. probably isn't needed; it just made it easier. with some RR fiddling you ought to be able to get a guy to go past the miner while he's mining. While this part feels like a backroute it also feels possibly intended? with that piece of pipe there... If not, you could remove that or put steel there. Remember you can use steel in the bubble set now.  :)

If you'd like you can send me the intended solutions to these three levels and I can try to help you fix them. Sometimes fixing a backroute can be as hard a puzzle as solving a level! [Often I found it difficult to fix a level then suddenly realized a simple way; thinking "why didn't I think of that before?"  :XD: I have not tried the other two levels yet.

I know I already made a comment but again; all of these are very difficult and even from this point; they have a feeling of being impossible at first, and even after a lot of thinking. On a similar nature to Duality and that's going at the end or near the end of the pack.

Btw, Duality, I just found out, has 2 other solutions! one which does not use the trick you mentioned in this thread (one may not work in Lemmini/SuperLemmini however). Both are quite neat and I won't do anything to change the level.
I also learned the intended solution to Serendipity and will be promptly fixing that and moving it to much later in the pack :D
I'd really like to see intended solutions to the other levels of Yawg, if anybody has them or any solutions of any kind, please post them here or PM me if you can.

As for Deep Freeze, I will consider it, however I've already got a few levels of similar nature under consideration. [not Lem Dunk]

@Nepster: For some reason when I load your replays it brings up the older versions of the levels. I don't know why, I haven't done anything differently. Since when I bring the level up first it's fine, and it changes when I load your replay I assume it's something to do with your replay, but I really don't know. Maybe we aren't using the same version of SuperLemmini?

I watched a little of it anyway, [didn't want to watch the whole thing in fear of it crashing and having to re-extract the files again] and it looks like you may have the intended sol.? yeah i didn't really get much...
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline Nepster

  • Posts: 1829
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #76 on: November 26, 2014, 04:51:55 PM »
@mobius about watching my replays: You should have some subfolder with my levelpack.ini in it. Have you replaced the levels in this subfolder by their newest version? If you still have an old version there, this might explain why SuperLemmini loads the wrong level.

I have played most levels of Yawg, but have neither replays at the moment nor know the intended solutions. Are there any levels, you are especially interested in seeing solutions? I don't feel like recording about 60 solutions at the moment ;).

Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2754
  • relax.
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #77 on: November 26, 2014, 10:33:42 PM »
@mobius about watching my replays: You should have some subfolder with my levelpack.ini in it. Have you replaced the levels in this subfolder by their newest version? If you still have an old version there, this might explain why SuperLemmini loads the wrong level.

I have played most levels of Yawg, but have neither replays at the moment nor know the intended solutions. Are there any levels, you are especially interested in seeing solutions? I don't feel like recording about 60 solutions at the moment ;).

thank you, that was all it was! Sorry for the hassle.

Minimal Trouble; you got the basic idea, this is only slightly different in approach to mine and in a timing level like this it's good to have leeway so I won't change anything.  :thumbsup:

Primal Tech: Good job! no backroute  :thumbsup:

Daedalus: This is much closer to the intended. the only part that's off is the weird digger/building thing. Thanks for the detail comments on it.
As for the traps: I forgot that SuperLemmini works differently and I probably don't need to have the traps as they are. (right now they're two of each, one embedded in the wall so it actually works (in Lemmini).

about Yawg; yeah there are replays I'd like to see, but you don't have to bother with them because the level(s) I'm most curious about have a zillion horrible backroutes [Paitence, Young Grasshopper, and Bat Country are the two I'm concerned with now]. This one is ridiculously easy and I've not been able to see anything close to an intended solution. [until recently...] But now after seeing the real solution to Serendipity I feel like this one could have a real interesting solution too...
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2754
  • relax.
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #78 on: November 27, 2014, 02:05:15 AM »
1. Some odd and convoluted attempted at reconciling this level. I found something that I thought maybe is somewhat close to what the intended solution was supposed to be. If this fails or nobody likes this level I'll scrap it.

2. A level by H0ru5 that's stumped me forever and I couldn't find replays for it anywhere. This is a "revised" version.

3. First attempt at fixing Serendipity. I'm pretty sure it needs more than this but I'm terrible at finding backroutes on my own so I uploaded this in the meantime for anyone to try.
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline Crane

  • Posts: 1081
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #79 on: November 27, 2014, 07:46:10 AM »
I'm not entirely sure what you mean about the terrain thing möbius, although I can promise it isn't the intended solution.

These versions of the levels are likely not the final versions, but I want to see if modifications of backroutes still work on them.  Pipe Dream has been modified somewhat in one region to better resemble the original version, just because it unintentionally made the intended solution more convoluted than a backroute.

ADDITIONAL: Just played the modified Deep Freeze... good grief that is a hard level.  Saving 94% isn't too hard, but 95% is a nightmare!  I just hope it isn't too frustrating.  Mind you, I'm one to talk because I made it, just not with those requirements!  I would ponder about making it 80 lemmings, save 75, or 100 lemmings, save 95 (just because 95% looks nicer than 94%).  It depends on what others think though and what level of difficulty we want.  By the way, Nepster, what's your solution?  Just I have to undermine the blocker at the top of the right steps with the last lemming out the trapdoor, using my final 2 floaters to save them from kersplat.

Offline Crane

  • Posts: 1081
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #80 on: November 27, 2014, 03:46:09 PM »
Fixed a bug in Pipe Dream (one of the traps didn't trigger) and I also made the intended solution a bit fairer, since changing some scenery previously had made the solution unfairly precise.  I might remove that little barrier in the bottom right corner to neaten the level eventually, but I need to ensure it doesn't cause backroutes.

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 12399
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #81 on: November 27, 2014, 10:07:23 PM »
Solved Gyps Isles, though it feels kind of backroutey. Used CustLemm mechanics, though it shouldn't matter (might not work on NeoLemmix though).
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline Nepster

  • Posts: 1829
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #82 on: November 27, 2014, 10:16:30 PM »
Pipe Dream: Another solution, which I should have seen earlier.
Mastermind: Not much of an improvement since the last version.
Jailbreak: The additional trap makes the backroute certainly harder, but I am not convinced yet that it is completely removed. I will check in the next few days.

Deep Freeze: I would be interested in seeing what you did. My solution is attached below and I don't have to undermine any blocker.
As for allowing to lose 5 lemmings: It seems to me that in this case, you could simply trap the lemmings from the middle hatch between two blockers and then stop worrying about them. But this is precisely the solution I wanted to avoid.
I agree with your difficulty assertion, but still prefer the harder version.

Serendipity: My solution feels intended.
Patience, Grasshopper: I am saving quite a few more lemmings than required.
Gyps Island: namida's comments apply as well to my solution.

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 12399
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #83 on: November 27, 2014, 10:21:16 PM »
Your method on Gyps Isles is one I initially considered but didnt think the time would allow for. :o
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2754
  • relax.
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #84 on: November 28, 2014, 04:31:43 AM »
Gyps Isles:
I was hoping there would be a more elegant way of releasing the blockers on this level but it seems like not. What do you think of this level (with backroutes fixed if that's a possibility) yay or nay?

Patience, Young Grasshopper:
Here are my unnecessarily detailed thoughts on this level:

Given that it is by Yawg and in his 5th pack it seems like it should be a difficult level. But with the comments like this; http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=8.msg3972#msg3972 there is very little to go on.
I like the design and layout of this level a lot but the backroute problem is obviously a serious issue. I really wish I knew the intended solution because Yawg's created some really ingenious designs in levels like Duality, Serendipity and Mass Lemicide. For the longest time I couldn't even hazard a guess as to what an intended solution might be. But I think I may have hit upon something that's maybe close to it.

The most puzzling thing is undoubtedly the save requirement. Besides being unusually low (less than 50%) 18 seems like a specific number, not just a random low number to allow plenty of lemmings to die for leeway or something of that nature. Even if you compress lemmings to send them through the many traps you can save way more than 45%.
There are 8 bombers, now the only place I can see to use them in any obvious manner is to bomb down the middle area right under the hatch. The problem is using walking bombers, so with the given blockers maybe you were supposed to hold in the crowd right above that area then bomb down.
You can also send a small 99RR'd group of lemming through the mashers to let one or two workers go ahead. With Lemmix steel detection you could mine left down below the 10-ton trap. Then have the group that bombed down the middle bash right to that area.
The problem is even this method still saves more than 18. Without trying really hard I think I saved 22-25 lemmings.

Another bizarre idea I had was; sending lemming left across the water, down below. Then using builders on the diagonal gap on the right to extend a basher across those two large bodies of dirt. The problem with this method is there's scarcely enough builders to pull it off, and no way to hold in the crowd (that I've yet found).

A solution which I like is the one Icho T0lot posted on youtube; going left and up over the top. Still, this is a backroute obviously, saving way more than the strange 45%.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4UEzxu4_mc&list=PLKR1N9oJTTlJc4yCh5nRL0pxylTVeAUBm&index=78

I have a bizarre feeling that the intended solution may actually involve sending lemmings all over the place; on top, underneath... maybe through the mashers etc and a lot of multitasking. Even with the low save requirement you still need to hold in the crowd someway. The low lemming count to begin with ensures that to some degree I think.
Hey I know, let's bring ccx on the job  :P
---------------------

found what may be close to an intended solution for t3telsa's ROCKY ROAD:
[removing the remaining blocker+bomber might enforce this, no? This was still pretty easy to find, though again, like the majority of the levels in this pack I did not see it right away.
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline Crane

  • Posts: 1081
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #85 on: November 28, 2014, 08:11:31 AM »
I have to give you credit on that one Nepster - that backroute was incredibly clean and surprisingly difficult to patch, to the point that the pipework down in the bottom right corner looks somewhat tacky now.  I've also removed that little stump near the bubbling water - hopefully it doesn't open anything up.

I've also attached my solution to Deep Freeze, (with a minor mistake that I recovered from).  While I do pen in the lemmings at the top, I have to use some trickery to release one of the blockers to save the required percentage.

I'll withdraw Mastermind for now.  Pipe Dream and JAILBREAK! I plan to keep.

(Remember with the replay, you have to load Deep Freeze as the first custom level (right after you open SuperLemmini) for it to work)

Offline Crane

  • Posts: 1081
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #86 on: November 29, 2014, 01:27:47 PM »
I've made modified versions of the two levels that, if backroute-free, will hopefully be the versions that I will submit for Revenge of the Lemmings.

- JAILBREAK! has had the arches lowered slightly so the intended solution is a little less unfair with the precision.  Bashing at ground level will still breach the arch though and cause lemmings to fall through the bottom of the screen.

- Pipe Dream is now named Overflow and the whole level has been shifted more towards the centre of the screen.  The bottom right corner has been tidied up and the suction trap has been replaced with one-way arrows again.  I don't think it has opened up a backroute, but if anyone can check I will be most grateful.

Once the backroutes are ironed out, I can provide replays of the intended solutions if requested to do so.

Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2754
  • relax.
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #87 on: November 29, 2014, 08:07:19 PM »
1- a version of Rocky Road which I think may allow only 1 or at least no really simple solutions. It's been altered quite a bit however; I thought of the title "Cracking Up" because of the terrain but if anyone has a better idea I'll accept it.

2- a version of Ice Ice Lemming which is a little more forviging on timing (but still tough which is the point of the level) and a blower trap that hopefully removes the backroute. I removed the miner in case it offered a backroute, even thought I kind of wanted to keep it since that's part of what stumped me on the level. Also made time limit 1 m-10 seconds.

working title: "Snow Time!" as in "s'no time" heh heh, yeah open to other ideas here too.

3- Lemmings in a Situation; with just a few slight alterations I think the level's decently more difficult. This should, again, limit the simple solutions while still keeping the obtuseness of the level. Renamed to "Big Trouble in Little Level" [a title which I wanted for one of my own levels but oh well]

----------
some special levels to be added to the set yet:

Hotel in Hell - Proxima [needs the everything set for a single death trap in fire]
special levels:
Prince of Persia - Proxima
Monolith - ISteve, thinking about remaking this in Pieuw's Castle set
a sonic level
GLITCHSPACE - Gronkling [though it requires a glitch (stuck climber), I'm still considering it for it's special graphics.
2013 - christmas level by uci

I'm looking for other special terrain Levels. I'd like one in each  rating.

notes:
all the tutorial levels are duplicates of later levels. And a few of the later levels of fun are duplicates as well.
One way block duped for the "Keep hair on" level; so the later level is "One way block part 2"; actually I'll ask Minim about that
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2754
  • relax.
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #88 on: November 29, 2014, 09:28:30 PM »
unfortunately I found a pretty nasty backtoute (but easy to fix most likely) to Overflow. Why didn't I think of this sooner?  :o

I couldn't solve Jailbreak yet.
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline Crane

  • Posts: 1081
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #89 on: November 30, 2014, 10:22:41 AM »
Hah, that's an interesting one, because you dug straight through a steel zone (one surrounds the trap's housing, which I hope is excuseable).  I guess one way walls cancel them out.  Try this one.  I just hope the removal of the one way arrows in that region don't open up a new backroute.

EDIT: I've added some hints to both JAILBREAK! and Overflow, a new feature of SuperLemmini.  It's up to you if you view them or not, or if they even remain in Revenge of the Lemmings.

Offline t3tesla

  • Posts: 8
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #90 on: November 30, 2014, 11:02:38 AM »
Quote from: möbius
I did contact t3tesla btw, but with the PM email notification system being down who knows if/when he'll realize it.
Sorry guys, I see the PM a bit late :D I checked your replays.
These levels were created a long time ago (and some use glitches of the original lemmings). I remember some intended solution. Some of these levels looks very easy now.

Lemming in a situation:
Quote from: spoilers highlight to read
On my original idea, a lemmings of the top-right hatch has to help lemmings from the left hatch. Nepster solution use that. But maybe there is backroutes.

Dangerzone: Nepster shows the intended solution. Attached with his message http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=1107.msg23877#msg23877

Suicidal Tendencies: Yes, you save a climber and broke the level. On the intended solution, one lemmings from the right and one lemmings from the left climb the ice wall. But 2 climbers is clearly useless, one is enought.

ROCKY ROAD:
Lot's of backroutes here...

There's madness in the method:
Quote from: möbius
Madness in the method can be adapted to work in Lemmini. The climber glitch isn't strictly necessary. and I will cause I love this level as well. (I'm loving like every level in this pack (except the glitchy ones). The trick used here is again, simple but elegant and difficult to see. I'll fix the steel as well.
Yes, it dont works on lemini, and you can adapt the level. The steel is missing, you'r right.

Dr. Lemminggood: 
Quote from: spoilers highlight to read
The solution "t3tesla - 7 - Dr Lemminggood_2.lrb" with 3 builders making a wall is the intended.

This corrosion: "Only works in Lemmix, where it can be solved with only 3 skills.". Yes, that's it!

A towering problem:
Quote from: spoilers highlight to read
Yes, it's the nuke glitch.
... But it only works on the original version of the game.

Ice ice lemmings:
Intended solution: just use the direct drop glitches. Good job, you found other solutions with the short time given ;-)



Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2754
  • relax.
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #91 on: November 30, 2014, 06:47:53 PM »
@Crane: I would personally recomending adding steel blocks there. It's less misleading and I feel like, before looking at it,; more solutions like this are possible. But I'll see after I play the level again.

Hints are great. The only sad thing is your levels will be the few or only levels with hints. Unless I take the time to write hints for all the other levels which is another big task needless to say.


@t3tesla
could I see your intended solution to Rocky Road?
I made some alterations to remove the easy solutions but I was just assuming what the real solution was.

My modification to Lemmings in a Situation (hopefully) forces you to use the right and the bottom hatch.
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline Crane

  • Posts: 1081
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #92 on: November 30, 2014, 06:56:41 PM »
I haven't managed to get the steel plate additions to appear in the editor yet - still working on it.  Would gold-coloured balls along the trap's length work too, and the trap made more obvious (e.g. clearing out some of the gunk that covers the electrode head)?

Offline t3tesla

  • Posts: 8
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #93 on: November 30, 2014, 10:24:36 PM »
@t3tesla
could I see your intended solution to Rocky Road?
I made some alterations to remove the easy solutions but I was just assuming what the real solution was.

Attached :) It's juste the idea of bashing behind a blocker.
On the replays of this topic, the obvious backroute is bombing near the trap, to go down directly. 

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 12399
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #94 on: November 30, 2014, 10:44:20 PM »
I haven't managed to get the steel plate additions to appear in the editor yet - still working on it.  Would gold-coloured balls along the trap's length work too, and the trap made more obvious (e.g. clearing out some of the gunk that covers the electrode head)?

For which engine and which editor?

If it's (Super)Lemmini, something was mentioned about the bubble set's INI file having the number of pieces listed as 64; if you change this to 68 it should work.

For (Neo)Lemmix, you must use the NeoLemmix editor, the traditional one doesn't support it at all.
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline Nepster

  • Posts: 1829
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #95 on: November 30, 2014, 11:11:10 PM »
@Crane: New solutions/backroutes to Pipe Dream=Overflow and Jailbreak. The good news is, that I could not manage to solve Jailbreak using a builer-wall.
To view the replays, load the corresponding level as the first additional, external level. The attached solutions were not created using my levelpack.ini file.

As for Deep Freeze: Thank you for your replay. Unfortunately I don't think one can easily remove your approach. Therefore I do not think, that this level (at least with the modified high save requirements) is suitable for addition in a level pack, because the solution is annoying to execute compared with its originality.

@Mobius and t3telsa: The modifications to Rocky Road, Ice Ice Lemmings and Lemmings in a situation look very promising. Apart from one solution to Lemmings in a situation, which uses only one of the two bashers, I could not find anything at least resembling a backroute.

Offline Crane

  • Posts: 1081
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #96 on: December 01, 2014, 04:07:56 PM »
I hoped I wouldn't have to put in this particular patch for JAILBREAK!, as it makes it obvious what you're supposed to do for the top cell.

I've also put in steel plates around the trap housing in Overflow.

Each level only has three hints now - I think that's more than enough!

Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2754
  • relax.
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #97 on: December 01, 2014, 10:12:32 PM »
-I'd like to include Nepster's level Devil's Right Hand, it was your most popular one I think. Can you send me the intended solution in case I can't solve it in time (very likely) I struggled with this one for a while.

Could u describe your 1 basher solution to Lems in Situation?
[in the meantime I'm still trying to get replays to work..]

On Rocky Road; I think the level is pretty nice as it is now, but... I could make it a little harder with two options;
If I remove the vine trap [assuming this doesn't open up backroutes, Lemmings still should not be able to get through the cracks on the bottom] this gives a little more distraction for the player because it appears you can hold the crowd in there [I'd have to make sure you can't easily free them from it]
There would be a way then, to save 1 more lemming by using the eye of the needle trick in that area. Or I could require this by increasing the save requirement. What do you think?

@Crane I wouldn't worry a whole lot about making anything obvious; that's still a really tough level.
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline Nepster

  • Posts: 1829
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #98 on: December 02, 2014, 07:07:48 PM »
Overflow: A pretty similar solution is still possible, cf. replay. (again made without levelpack.ini)
Jailbreak: My previous solution saved 1 lemming more than required and had 1 bomber spare. So the very same solution still works, if one uses two bombers instead of one for the upmost hatch.

Lems in a situation: The solution is not terribly interesting (which was the reason I did not attach it to my previous post). The replay attached below should work if you load the level as the very first external level and then load this replay.
Rocky Road: I am in favour of removing the vines (I cannot see how this could create backroutes), but prefer not to force the needle trick. The needle trick required some precise bomber timing, which would create unnecessary difficulty, especially as SuperLemmini does not feature instant bomber or frame-by-frame advance. But this is only my opinion...

Devil's right hand: The attached version works with SuperLemmini. View the replay the same way as the replay for Lems in a situation. Alternatively download my levelpack from the database. It should come with a batch of intended solutions.

Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2754
  • relax.
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #99 on: December 02, 2014, 10:30:26 PM »
Some one "new" level.

Gypse Isles, I  tried to enforce 1 (or similar) solution. This was the solution I thought of when playing this level the first time.

Rocky Road: sounds good, that's what I was going to go with as well. That way saving an extra lemming is just a little bonus thing the player can do if they happen to discover it.

I'm still working on Paitence Young Grasshopper. I'm trying to enforce a solution which is probably nothing like the intended, never-the-less I like it when I thought of it.

I've been looking through levels and am still! finding interesting levels to include to the pack.
Here's a new one by Juano I've found that really perplexes me: (sorry if someone actually nominated this one and I forgot)
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline Nepster

  • Posts: 1829
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #100 on: December 05, 2014, 08:56:40 PM »
Rocky Road: I just noticed that once the vines are removed, one can save the additional lemming even without the needle trick:
Quote from: spoilers highlight to read
Just bomb the second lemming.

Gyps: Not really fond of this solution, especially as the terrain makes it rather tricky to apply this trick.
Level atractivo: If my solution is intended, the level is definitely not "atractivo".
(Load both levels as the first external level to view the replays)

Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2754
  • relax.
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #101 on: December 05, 2014, 09:02:52 PM »
Rocky Road: I just noticed that once the vines are removed, one can save the additional lemming even without the needle trick:
Quote from: spoilers highlight to read
Just bomb the second lemming.

Gyps: Not really fond of this solution, especially as the terrain makes it rather tricky to apply this trick.
Level atractivo: If my solution is intended, the level is definitely not "atractivo".
(Load both levels as the first external level to view the replays)
ok, that's sort of what I meant on Rocky Road, I still think it's ok, since this level isn't super hard in the first place.

Could you possibly just explain your solutions? for reasons below... or use old Lemmini. On Gyps Isles it sounds like you did something different than I, mine wasn't too difficult to pull off.

attached are some more levels to test:
Bat Country; the time limit is harsh, to (and most likely fail to) force the intended solution.

Paitence Young Grasshopper:
a lot of changes to enforce a somewhat interesting route. There is some tricky timing involved

yeah Akseli told me the solution to Puzzle Atractivo, I'm forgetting that one

note: I tried a little again today to get replays to work but they don't. Now, even many of my own replays don't work and do that same annoying pick another level thing.
Now when I try to view your latest replay of Gyps isles it says "replay made with an incompatible version of Lemmini--may fail," then crashes.
I wanted to get more done today but that did not happen.
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline Nepster

  • Posts: 1829
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #102 on: December 05, 2014, 10:41:08 PM »
Some thoughts about how replays work in SuperLemmini (though this is only guesswork and Tsyu certainly knows more):
When one loads and external level it is stored (for this session) in External Levels - Single levels and then some number. I suspect that SuperLemmini stores this exact position in the replay. Then when you view the replay, it loads the level that is currently stored in this position. But as the position among the externally loaded levels may change, this loaded level might not be the one you wanted (or might not exist at all).

All replays I post here (for SuperLemmini and not using my levelpack.ini) are created using the very first slot for the external level. So start SuperLemmini anew, then load the one level for which you want to view the replay and then load my replay. Hopefully it works then.

As for "replay made with an incompatible version of Lemmini--may fail": Currently I am still using V0.97 in the hope that V0.98 may still load such replays :-\.

Concerning Lemmini: Unfortunately many of the SuperLemmini levels (like Gyps2) miss at least all hatches and exits when loaded in Lemmini. ><img src=" title="Angry" class="smiley" />

Bat Country: The time limit is indeed very harsh. With more time I would be able to save even 100%. Replay made in SuperLemmini.
Grasshopper: If my solution is intended, then the terrain should be slightly modified to ease the execution. Replay made in (Old) Lemmini, but actually not a solution, because one builder was started too low (and I did not want to do all the rest anew).

Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2754
  • relax.
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #103 on: December 06, 2014, 04:31:49 AM »
your suggestion was a good one, I tried it, unfortunately it didn't work. It looks like you're going to have to updrade because these replays don't work at all (as opposed to bringing up the wrong level) I've messages Tsyu about it so maybe he can help.

Grasshopper: an interesting solution! [not quite intended] Of course; building into grass is the bad part. I think you should be able to not use the blocker in the digger's hole and maintain most of this solution..
At least the level is no longer "ridiculously easy" -quote from Clam :D
Actually your solution is really not that different from mine after thinking about it but does miss a critical part but I figured I needed to adjust this anyway because it's a little too tight for my liking.

Bat Country: I highly doubted that I stopped backroutes, I don't know why I bothered posting this version. I guess I was hoping to see what kind of backroutes are possible. I also don't like having the time limit so harsh, I'll have to think of a better way to fix that.

As to missing objects; this must be a product of saving the level with NeoLemmix. I used the SuperLemmini style after all so I can't exactly complain that this is a problem. Still bizzare.
Any level you save in SuperLemmin style with NeoLemmix btw, you won't be able to open in old Lemmix.
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline Nepster

  • Posts: 1829
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #104 on: December 06, 2014, 07:00:51 PM »
Here are the replays using V0.98.

Grasshopper: It seems that in SuperLemmini you cannot place a blocker on top of a stair and have another lemming start another stair from the topmost brick; at least not in such a way, that another lemming can climb all these stairs as well. So it seems to me, that for the first part you need actually three builders in SuperLemmini.
Therefore I would prefer lowering the topmost steel blocks by about two or three (low-res) pixels, allowing the player to build up using only two builders and reducing the number of builders to 5. This way you remove the solution which builds into the grass and make it clear that two builders actually suffice to get up instead of letting the player figure out, that you actually need three builders.
Moreover I would raise the time limit to 6 or 7 minutes (or remove it completely), as in the attached solution, the selection of the third climber needs to timed quite accurately (though this is far from obvious at this stage of the solution).

Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2754
  • relax.
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #105 on: December 06, 2014, 10:05:17 PM »
replays finally work!!  :thumbsup:

also thanks for the many suggestions. You're a humongous help  :thumbsup:

Gyps Isles: you found a totally different solution which means mine is apparently harder to see then I thought. Only because you said this was annoying I'll try to fix it. I'd like to use this level as a duplicate fun level too since you would most likely take two different paths on it.

[I will comment further on your other replays after I watch them]

a few questions: on Serendipity; was it a real pain to execute? If so (hopefully not *too* much) than it could be the intended solution. Trying it today I found it somewhat annoying but I got it quicker than I thought I would. I raised the RR to 99 because this is what I did to get it to work easier.
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline Crane

  • Posts: 1081
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #106 on: December 07, 2014, 10:22:07 AM »
I do have a patching solution with JAILBREAK! that could stop your solution - making the walls of the cells thicker - but I want to try this one first: I've redesigned the crane so it's a lot more hazardous to walk off, but also to give a slight red herring for the middle cell (it looks possible to build to it now, as you won't hit your head on the underside of the hook).

As for Overflow, I can now make liberal use of the metal plates when I was reluctant to go for steel zones with this tileset before!

Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2754
  • relax.
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #107 on: December 09, 2014, 02:12:04 AM »
@Nepster; I'll take your recommendations for Patience young Grasshopper. Don't remember if I actually mentioned it but you got the intended solution. I'm happy with how this turned out.

It seems that turning a builder with a walking blocker on the stair is more difficult than on old Lemmini. I certainly hope it's possible, if not then another level will be busted..  :-\

anyway;
[better] fixes for Bat Country and Gyps isles. The former no longer has a harsh time limit (though still a little tight mostly to guide the player away from false paths (which is maybe not a good idea?) now requires 100% A really cool solution to the latter just occurred to me but I'm not sure how to enforce it. I'm sure there are still other obvious paths available.
I can get replays to work now so use SuperLemmini for them. :thumbsup:

@Crane; what was the reason again, you decided to retract Mastermind? I didn't get a chance yet to test the newest Jailbreak or Pipe Dream, or should I be waiting on further updates?

for some reason I didn't see the attachments to your post  :XD:
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline Crane

  • Posts: 1081
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #108 on: December 09, 2014, 12:14:11 PM »
Mastermind has quite a few backroutes that are proving very difficult to patch due to the number of builders available.  I may have to change the official solution slightly, and either way it's going to take a lot of work.  I'll try to get something working though if you still want to consider it.

Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2754
  • relax.
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #109 on: December 12, 2014, 02:14:55 AM »
two new levels adapted from Cheapo. I know I said I wasn't remaking any more Cheapo levels but I guess I lied...
These were picked by Akseli and I had fun with them.
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline Nepster

  • Posts: 1829
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #110 on: December 13, 2014, 04:34:47 PM »
@Crane: Here are new replays (hopefully) for the current versions of Overflow and Jailbreak (recorded with V0.98). They are adapted versions of my previous solutions. For Jailbreak: Freeing the upper lemmings requires now a fair bit of precision.

@möbius: Another set of replays for you as well.
Gyps Island: I don't see what's so special about this solution, so it is likely not quite intended.
Bat Country: There are now many different ways to handle the beginning. The replay shows one, that saves one builder in the end. There are a few changes, that I don't understand (and that feel like a step backwards), e.g.: Why have you lowered the initial step?
Euclid: Good level, but could use a more restrictive skill set.
Leave no one behind: Another good level, but getting the timing right is a horrible task. Is there any reason not to move the one-way-wall on the left several metal blocks away from the gap?

Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2754
  • relax.
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #111 on: December 14, 2014, 01:13:42 PM »
 ><img src=" title="Angry" class="smiley" /> replays stop working again.
Now all I did was load one single level---gypse Isles, and then load the replay and Bat Country came up then it crashed  ><img src=" title="Angry" class="smiley" /> ><img src=" title="Angry" class="smiley" />

comments anyway:
Bat Country; I can imagine some of the solutions, I guess I'll just go back to a previous version and make this an easier level. At least I can prevent everyone from going down below. I'm tired of testing this level.
My solution was to make blocker on the top and free him later. Or have a more interesting way of sealing up the gap made at the top but you can still just have the last lemming come in and dig down.

Euclid: Now I can think of at least one solution which is simpler then my intended: that was to turn a digger with a blocker... I don't know if I'll try to enforce it.

Leave No Lemming Behind: I could put markers in the terrain to help with the timing. I don't understand what you mean by the arrows on the left; Why would you need to do that?
-alternatively I could let one lem die, which is actually how the original level was. Then there'd be no timing involved but you still have to carry out the tasks in the same order. The original had many more skills so I'm not really sure what the intended solution was.

I forgot to post two other levels I remade but these shouldn't have many problems; they're easierish
I'm sure Nepster already played these in Lix; Leap of Faith and Lemming Cannon. I don't recall them having any backroute problems?

Also I feel I should upload this level by Gronkling; I wanted to include it but found it quite problematic executing the solution. This one is quite difficult.
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline Nepster

  • Posts: 1829
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #112 on: December 14, 2014, 02:59:16 PM »
><img src=" title="Angry" class="smiley" /> replays stop working again.
Now all I did was load one single level---gypse Isles, and then load the replay and Bat Country came up then it crashed  ><img src=" title="Angry" class="smiley" /> ><img src=" title="Angry" class="smiley" />
I checked my replays and all except Gyps2 worked fine for me. So did you only try Gyps2 or some of the other replays as well?
The replay for Gyps2 loaded the correct level, but made a huge mess out of my solution. So here is an updated version.

Euclid: My solution actually uses turning a digger with a blocker. But even without this, one can have one basher and one digger spare.
Leave no lemming Behind: Sorry for my confusing description. See attached level for the modification I meant. But I don't know how markers on the terrain could tell you e.g. to free the upper lemmings at 5:02 (which actually depends on where you place the miner and the digger afterwards...)?

Lix Cannon: The Lix version did have some issues with backroutes.
Leap of Faith: I am not aware of any backroutes to any Lix version, so this level is likely fine.

Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2754
  • relax.
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #113 on: December 14, 2014, 07:30:13 PM »
Yeah, I had only tried Gyps Isles, sorry for the confusion. I could see the others. As for Gyps, it's a backroute and here's the fix :)
damn basher backstroke annoying me once again.  ><img src=" title="Angry" class="smiley" /> BTW, as an announcement I'm now
removing any levels using this annoying feature [there weren't many] I consider it border-line glitchy behavior.

Your solution to Euclid is pretty neat, I'll just remove a few skills and if there are still multiple ways I'll let it go.

I'll make some adjustments to the terrain with Leave No Lemming Behind and also have 19/20. That was saving 100% is just a cool bonus.

@Crane- I've changed my mind again and I'm thinking about removing shvegait's pipe dream. So if you'd like to change your's name back you can. Personally I like either name.
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline Crane

  • Posts: 1081
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #114 on: December 14, 2014, 08:34:18 PM »
Funny you should say that, because I just came up with another alternative name for that level.  Pick from these three:

- Pipe Dream
- Overflow
- Precision Engineering

Anyhow, here are the next versions, yet again!  Thanks for your relentless testing, Nepster.

Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2754
  • relax.
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #115 on: December 17, 2014, 10:40:39 PM »
Overflow:

is there a good reason the steel is placed like it is? It looks like a narrow vertical diggable path exists over the exit but the actual steel area is different. That's misleading... and what's the purpose of the steel around the trap on the right?

Also, this might be something on my end but I can't seem to play the level, the game crashes when I open it.
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline Crane

  • Posts: 1081
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #116 on: December 18, 2014, 10:58:51 AM »
I think it's something your end.  It plays fine for me in SuperLemmini, and this is what it looks like in Lemmix.  The steel zone extends below the plates slightly just so the height is a multiple of 8.

As for the steel around the redundant trap to the right, that's mainly a leftover from when the other zapper trap had steel around its housing.

Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2754
  • relax.
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #117 on: December 20, 2014, 12:12:08 AM »
Oh okay.  I know:
I'm using my own graphics instead of the ones tsyu uploaded with super lemmini.  The reason is for some reason his bubble steel is darker and Imo I like the lighter steel minim uploaded way back.  But if everyone else likes the new steel I'll go with that

The order of the pieces in the list must be different so the vertical pieces appeared in my game instead of the correct ones

@nepster I keep failing to answer people's questions;  well, the reason I lowered the step in bat country was to force a solution where u bash out a blocker. But all this (and most likely the intended solution) is rather over complicated and I doubt there's any way to force that
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline Crane

  • Posts: 1081
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #118 on: December 20, 2014, 12:35:58 PM »
I'm not sure whether I should be concerned or not that no-one's offered any solutions to the most recent versions.  I can confirm that they can be completed though.  Overflow uses a trick that I don't think any other level actively uses, but it isn't a glitchy exploit, while JAILBREAK! is just hard - a little bit of good timing and precision is required, but I don't believe any of it is unfair.

Offline Nepster

  • Posts: 1829
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #119 on: December 20, 2014, 03:05:58 PM »
I'm not sure whether I should be concerned or not that no-one's offered any solutions to the most recent versions.
I for one was quite busy backrouting someone else's levels ;).

I can confirm that they can be completed though.
... and I can confirm that they can be backrouted as well ;P.

Overflow still has essentially the same solution as the previous two versions.
Jailbreak needed a totally new approach to be able to use three bombers to free the upmost prisoners. But now it celebrates the return of the ever-useful builder-wall.

@mobius: A new solution of Gyps Island for you as well. I think this solution has a good chance to be intended, even if I have one basher spare.

Offline Crane

  • Posts: 1081
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #120 on: December 20, 2014, 04:08:31 PM »
Aah, good job.  I've made the most subtle of changes to both levels that I hope will patch the issues - good luck in using that hook now!

Thanks again for your help.


Offline Nepster

  • Posts: 1829
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #121 on: December 20, 2014, 07:41:27 PM »
Overflow needed a slightly different approach now and the builder-wall in Jailbreak vanished again, but otherwise...

Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2754
  • relax.
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #122 on: December 20, 2014, 07:55:47 PM »
 :thumbsup: on Gypse Isles. The extra basher is there in case the builder on the left gets too high; you can cut it short.

I'm currently trying to recreate the Mon0lith by ISteve, if anyone knows the intended solution to this level help would be appreciated. The Cheapo version has backroutes. I've not solved either that or the Lix version.

Quote from: spoilers highlight to read
One theory I have is that you have the climbers go up and mine and build to make a path then use bashers against the miner's slopes to turn the bulk of lemmings around. The problem with this solution is [if it's anywhere near correct or even possible] it would require an insane amount of timing and precision. 
attached is the incomplete version I've made so far, Idk if this is solvable.

Also is a new level by Ben Bryant--this one is not very difficult but I like the appearance a lot.
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline Nepster

  • Posts: 1829
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #123 on: December 20, 2014, 08:48:43 PM »
Mon0lith:
Quote from: spoilers highlight to read
One theory I have is that you have the climbers go up and mine and build to make a path then use bashers against the miner's slopes to turn the bulk of lemmings around. The problem with this solution is [if it's anywhere near correct or even possible] it would require an insane amount of timing and precision. 
Quote from: spoilers highlight to read
This is the intended solution to the Lix version. With the runners given in the Lix version, the amount of precision needed is actually pretty low.

Access denied: Numbering the exits from left to right, I can manage to get the lemmings to exits 1 (very easy), 3 (tricky), 6 (hard) and 8 (relatively easy).

Offline Crane

  • Posts: 1081
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #124 on: December 20, 2014, 09:28:29 PM »
Hopefully just very minor fixes.

Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2754
  • relax.
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #125 on: December 21, 2014, 04:15:07 AM »
Mon0lith:
Quote from: spoilers highlight to read
One theory I have is that you have the climbers go up and mine and build to make a path then use bashers against the miner's slopes to turn the bulk of lemmings around. The problem with this solution is [if it's anywhere near correct or even possible] it would require an insane amount of timing and precision. 
Quote from: spoilers highlight to read
This is the intended solution to the Lix version. With the runners given in the Lix version, the amount of precision needed is actually pretty low.

Access denied: Numbering the exits from left to right, I can manage to get the lemmings to exits 1 (very easy), 3 (tricky), 6 (hard) and 8 (relatively easy).

cool beans.  8) on one hand I'm proud I figured that level out, on the other it'll be tough to work out but I think I can make it work...

on Acess Denied; for left most exit did you bash/mine twice through the grey pillars? Will adding one more pillar there work to prevent access to that one? I'm okay with leaving the others in if they're not really easy to get to.
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline Nepster

  • Posts: 1829
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #126 on: December 21, 2014, 10:36:24 AM »
@mobius: One well-placed basher and one miner (for the last quarter) is sufficient to get through the grey pillars. Three grey pillars with a little more space in between should take care of the direct approach. However a far more tricky solution will still reach the left-most exit.

@Crane: Just minor fixes on the solutions.

Offline Crane

  • Posts: 1081
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #127 on: December 21, 2014, 12:34:10 PM »
I added an extra one-way wall in Overflow, which I can reposition to be more restrictive if it's still possible to complete the level that way.  As for JAILBREAK!, it was surprisingly difficult to construct that chain in such a way that it can't be blocked off (and removing it completely opens up another backroute, I think), but let's see how it performs this time.  I tried to manipulate your replay to work with the current fix, and I smiled when I discovered I actually built up to the ceiling in such a way that it prevented the lemmings from even reaching the wheel trap!

Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2754
  • relax.
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #128 on: December 22, 2014, 11:07:24 PM »
I would like to present another dos levelpack; twigpak3
similar to t3tesla's they're all short and sweet.
The first three are nice, 1 and 3 with simple but obtuse tricks used.
Think Fast part 1 has an obvious easy backroute to save 100%--I can't see what was intended there.

Blockafloater is my favorite; small compact and complex level. The only bad thing is the title gives the solution away! [The solution I found at least, this was before I looked at title btw]

Undermining is a nice one but backrouted, and not outstanding imo

Passing Loop is also a nice one but I fear it has many solutions

Corrosion has some fake steel, if intended; without this deception it's another decent simple level. I may have still backrouted it however, I didn't use all builders.
If the fake steel is a mistake then I have no idea currently on how to solve it.

Think Fast part 2 is actually decently hard unlike part 1
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline Nepster

  • Posts: 1829
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #129 on: December 23, 2014, 01:54:09 PM »
@Crane: Two more solutions. They are likely the last replays for this year.

@möbius:
- TheClanger: There is only one way I see to save the lemming from the left, which automatically yields the solution. So I don't get the obtuse trick here?
- Here is a backroute for Blockafloater (at least the title has nothing to do with my solution).
- ThinkFast2 can be solved using only one builder. This needs very precise positioning in Lemmix due to bad steel handling. It will get better in Lemmini.

Merry Christmas to all!

Offline Crane

  • Posts: 1081
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #130 on: December 24, 2014, 12:10:56 PM »
Thanks again Nepster, using every bit of terrain available!  I hope these fixes don't open up new backroutes.  One way to find out...

Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2754
  • relax.
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #131 on: December 26, 2014, 08:52:33 PM »
a remake of Insane Steve's the Mon0lith. There are claims to be backroutes in the Cheapo version (which this is more similar to than the lix version) but I can't see any. I only found the intended solution myself.
This design is based off a level by hubbart called "Another Lost Civilization"

@Crane; You might want to think about making more drastic changes to your levels to remove the backroutes I mean, maybe it's only me but it feels like this is going to go on forever at this point.

Although I haven't got time [possibly never will] to read through all the old posts on older levels, I think I'm done adding more levels. I have to decide now finally on which to eliminate.
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline Crane

  • Posts: 1081
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #132 on: December 26, 2014, 09:10:06 PM »
My apologies for it going on forever, but it's harder than I thought because I'm only being given one solution at a time, and when I patch the level, a completely different part of the level is exploited.  The last update, for example, was to patch something that wasn't even touched before.  If multiple people tested the level at once, I would be able to patch multiple things together.  JAILBREAK! I think is pretty much patched now, unless Nepster finds something that hasn't been done yet.  Overflow I think is patched too, but I can't guarantee that Nepster won't find something ingenious.

I try to avoid drastic changes if possible because it can easily open up new backroutes or change the official solution if not make it impossible.  Either way, if time is up, you can use the current versions as is.

Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2754
  • relax.
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #133 on: December 26, 2014, 09:20:13 PM »
I didn't mean to rush you, and I'd also be glad to get rid of all backroutes. I've tried the levels myself now and again but they're both very hard. I'd rather have them fixed then go into the pack with backroutes.
The reason I said something was on a complicated levels like these, I think it's a matter of deciding how picky you want to be about the solution. I don't it's very likely to be able or possible to limit only 1 exacting solution on a very complex level, even so it can still be very hard. I don't know if that's the case here or not, but it may be.
Duality for example is considered very hard yet people have found different solutions to it. If Yawg were here he'd probably try to force his solution [which may not actually work in SuperLemmini  :-\ ] but I think the game is more fun with less precision.

In any case; there's still plenty of time left. There's tons of work to do. I will attempt your levels again, maybe I'll get somewhere this time  :)
I know, It would be easier with more people testing but what can we do, it's a small community.

Also the reason I haven't been making a lot of announcements about my decisions is because I keep changing my mind over and over again so it's pointless for me to say this and that.  :XD:
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline Crane

  • Posts: 1081
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #134 on: December 26, 2014, 09:30:16 PM »
No worries.  What I like with Duality is, with one exception, all of the solutions keep to the essence of the level with the beautiful builder sacrifice, and the skill-set is meant to leave a few things left over (at least the Floaters, for example, simply because there are no dangerous falls to traverse).

The reason why I'm picky with JAILBREAK! and Overflow is because my intended solutions are meant to use all the tools at one's disposal (and Overflow uses a couple of nice tricks), while Nepster's backroutes leave climbers left over, among other things.

Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2754
  • relax.
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #135 on: December 27, 2014, 06:21:35 PM »
made a change to blockafloater & Think fast part 2

EDIT: also added another level nominated a while back. At first I thought this level would have no problems; my solution uses a trick to save time because the straightforward approach runs out of time. But then I read the interview with the creator and it seems my solution might be a backroute. In it he says "they need another lemming to help them" and something about "a builder connecting three points."
[my solution doesn't really do anything like either of these points. At least not the first one.]

@Crane [from other thread]; your fix to Herculems is fine but Vegetation reign doesn't display correctly for me. Lots of terrain is missing. I'm not sure why but it's probably because of my custom terrain. Could you send me your styles folder from both your SuperLemmini and Lemmix or NeoLemmix folders to try and resolve this?
« Last Edit: January 06, 2015, 09:43:33 PM by möbius »
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline Crane

  • Posts: 1081
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #136 on: December 27, 2014, 07:54:59 PM »
I just checked, and that was my fault - I was using a bugged version of NeoLemmixEditor that doesn't save the terrain properly, and I neglected to actually check the level!  Fixed version posted in the relevant topic.  Would you still like my copies of the styles folders?

Offline Crane

  • Posts: 1081
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #137 on: January 05, 2015, 05:03:01 PM »
So has anyone solved my levels the intended way yet, or even better, are those backroutes finally patched?!

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 12399
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #138 on: January 05, 2015, 05:39:53 PM »
I just checked, and that was my fault - I was using a bugged version of NeoLemmixEditor that doesn't save the terrain properly, and I neglected to actually check the level!  Fixed version posted in the relevant topic.  Would you still like my copies of the styles folders?

Be sure to always use V1.26n-A or newer when editing (Super)Lemmini levels; that's the earliest version where said bug is fixed.
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline Nepster

  • Posts: 1829
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #139 on: January 06, 2015, 03:51:27 PM »
New Year - New Backroutes!
Jailbreak: If one chain no longer works to turn the lemmings around - then use the next one ;P.
Overflow: Somewhat different to the previous solutions, but still with spare skills.

Think Fast: This solution is actually easier than my previous one :XD:.
BlockAFloater: This looks now more intended, but I still do not block a floater.

Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2754
  • relax.
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #140 on: January 07, 2015, 01:57:25 AM »
think fast -- I don't think I'll bother with this level.

Blockafloater-- that's pretty close to my solution. I doesn't seem like the miner should interact with the arrows imo, it's not close enough  :-\ So I made a change anyway.

Made some big fixes to Clam's level "FALL AND DIE" (mirroring the Lix version).  I don't know of any backroutes.

one more new level that was nominated: Timeless Masterpiece by Yawg. I greatly decreased the skillcount because as often the case his solution was over-complicated probably impossible to enforce. This one uses a few simple tricks. [some skills here may be a ruse]

any comments on the difficult of any of these levels would be helpful. [a rating of 1-7 (7 being hardest)] I believe Fall and Die is harder now.

Also for the record; I've scoured some of the old threads here, and in BulletRide and Geoo's discussions I couldn't find much new info on BR's levels, or anyone else's levels for that matter
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline Crane

  • Posts: 1081
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #141 on: January 07, 2015, 04:12:19 PM »
Thanks again Nepster.  I've hopefully patched the levels (again!) - I also found a plausible backroute of my own on JAILBREAK!, but couldn't personally make it work due to the time constraint... nevertheless, I introduced the most subtle of changes to prevent it from working (see if you can spot it!).

Overflow may still be completable using a variant of your last solution, but I always had at least one or two lemmings walk into the water when I tried it, so see if you have any better luck - if it's possible but too tricky to pull off, I may let it stay.

As for estimated difficulty, given creator's bias:

Overflow - 4 or 5
JAILBREAK! - 6 or 7

Mind you, it's up to the players to decide ultimately.

Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2754
  • relax.
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #142 on: January 07, 2015, 10:45:07 PM »
quick update: I'm going to take Nepster's suggestion on Leave no Lemming behind; I was being stupid and didn't realize how that would help the level. So I'll keep the save requirement to 100% but the solution will not be as precise this way.
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline Nepster

  • Posts: 1829
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #143 on: January 09, 2015, 04:57:36 PM »
Jailbreak: Still essentially the same solution as the previous two. It might even be possible to bridge the gap instead of building completely to the wall and letting all lemmings go for a longer walk. This way one might even reduce the number of builders used.
Overflow: With a slight modification, my solution still works (finally using all skills :)). But I found a completely different backroute saving 100% with a few spare skills.

BloackAFloater: I first tried interchanging the miner and the digger, but did not manage to place the digger properly. So here another modification. However I actually prefer my previous solution (perhaps slightly modified as to not requiring hitting the arrows).
Fall and Die: I am pretty sure this solution is intended. However compared to the original version, the terrain now hints rather much at the solution.
Timeless Masterpiece: Again I am confident, that the solution is close to intended.

Offline Crane

  • Posts: 1081
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #144 on: January 10, 2015, 12:30:26 AM »
Overflow solution 7.2 is SO close to the intended solution that it's painful!!  Still, I've patched the level, but my patch-jobs are starting to look a little bit tacky, especially to stop that trick in solution 7.1, since I sort of need sloped metal now (I can't just keep the bubble slope there, as you can bash into the steel plate to stop lemmings from going into the water).

JAILBREAK! is not as tacky, but I've patched three different parts of the level to hopefully prevent your solution given the leftover builders and the places where you could theoretically use the miner to turn around.  The final obstacle, although not as reliable, is the time limit.  Here goes nothing!

P.S. Both can still be solved in the intended way.

Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2754
  • relax.
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #145 on: January 10, 2015, 07:02:52 PM »
BloackAFloater: I first tried interchanging the miner and the digger, but did not manage to place the digger properly. So here another modification. However I actually prefer my previous solution (perhaps slightly modified as to not requiring hitting the arrows).

I did not expect this level to have such problems. This solution is tacky so I've made a change to remove it neater than before. I was considering leaving your old solution in but the title clearly indicates Twig's intended solution and the digger use in that solution is kind of odd and not really nessicary [if the level had been designed for that solution]

----
On Hey that's not cool guys, I decided to change something: I put the triangle back and put steel under the exit. This prevents Nepster's backroute [and another serious route by Akseli] but keeping that triangle there, I remembered would keep quite a lot of the mystery of the level. I spent a lot of time when I first played this level fumbling around with a route involving using that triangle. I believe Crane mentioned something like this too.
I just hope no more similar backroutes still exist.

« Last Edit: January 10, 2015, 08:36:46 PM by möbius »
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline Nepster

  • Posts: 1829
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #146 on: January 11, 2015, 05:17:52 PM »
Bad news for all:
Jailbreak: Long route still works with 1 builder spare.
Overflow: Two more solutions - neither of them "SO close" to solution 7_2.
BloackAFloater: There is still a version of my solution that works.

Offline Crane

  • Posts: 1081
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #147 on: January 12, 2015, 12:44:41 AM »
Heh, here we go again.  A pixel is all it takes!

I actually reverted back a version on Overflow before patching, and as a result the level looks quite a bit neater - given it won't work on the original Lemmings because of the steel blocks anyway, I don't mind having so many arrowed walls now that many would be considered fake under the original mechanics.

JAILBREAK! I used a very slight change that I hope doesn't open up a new backroute.  Adapting your last solution to it, I find myself a builder short, so I think it works.  Still, let's see what you make of it.

UPDATE: I found a backroute in Overflow of my own.  It was very similar to my intended solution, but with some tools rearranged, but which also takes away one of the level's tricks.  The level has been adapted to prevent this (hopefully!)
« Last Edit: January 12, 2015, 03:03:05 PM by Crane »

Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2754
  • relax.
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #148 on: January 12, 2015, 11:58:06 PM »
I'm starting to get less interested in "blockafloater" for some reason. Never-the-less, I have a patch;

And now another new level and this time, I will try to promise that this will be the last new level I enter. [may be a futile promise as geoo and Akseli have given me their replays for old levels]
It's Ellischan'ts Brokeback Mountain; a rather complex level which uses quite a few tricks. The first is the original. version "A" is my adaptation to remove my solution, which I think is not nearly as interesting as geoo's.

Not sure if I announced it yet but; someone reminded me that while when I began, Akseli and me agreed to not include levels from large packs; yet for some reason we totally didn't realize that Mikau Shekzen's levels were exactly that; I think it's only fair those be removed now.
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline Nepster

  • Posts: 1829
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #149 on: January 13, 2015, 11:36:34 PM »
@Crane: The most recent fixes created new solutions :evil:.
Jailbreak: Here is a completely new approach, solving the level in 4 minutes. Even if 8_1 is most likely not the intended solution, I like it quite much and would not mind if this solution is kept. As far as I remember, it is my first solution without using builders to create some kind of wall to turn lemmings around.
Solution 8_2 is much more usual and less elegant.
Btw. even with allowing for solutions like 8_1, this level is very hard and interesting.
Overflow: Two more solutions. One created by the last fix and one similar to 7_2 (but still having a basher spare).

@Mobius: Some replays for you as well.
BlockAFloater: This solution has a better chance to be intended.
Brokeback Mountain: An excellent level with a brilliant solution, even though it is possible to save one lemming more than required while having one builder spare. However I doubt, that removing one builder or requiring 97% would improve the level.

Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2754
  • relax.
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #150 on: January 14, 2015, 10:55:17 PM »
@Crane: I was testing Blast furnace (part two) and I feel like the backroutes aren't quite removed. At least, I think this solution is possible in 1. Duh, but it still feels backroutish.
attached a replay. I'm still don't know what the intended solution is.
I used the level you gave me in that folder named "Crane Updates". Not sure which version of superlemmini I have but it's the latest if he hasn't made any major updates recently.


@Nepster: Glad you liked Brokeback mountain, I'm guess you didn't bother with the original version?
In that:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Unless other problems are discovered I won't make any further changes.Your solution is almost like geoo's. You just removed two unnecessary  steps [which seem obvious in hindsight but I didn't think of them when playing it, turns out their not important anyway..]
I also made the area around the trap flatter so it's easier to build over.

Your solution to blockafloater was also like mine. I'm surprised you found so many other routes to that; my route seemed rather obvious and I have a habit of totally ignoring obvious clues like the title.
I'm not sure however whether to leave in your initial solution of mining to the left/into that area [remove the trap]
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline Crane

  • Posts: 1081
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #151 on: January 17, 2015, 02:39:21 AM »
I give up - I'm sorry.  I'm not cut out for this.  I just cannot see the simplest solutions sometimes, and I can't even solve other people's levels. *sighs* I surrender.

Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2754
  • relax.
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #152 on: January 17, 2015, 04:07:11 AM »
I give up - I'm sorry.  I'm not cut out for this.  I just cannot see the simplest solutions sometimes, and I can't even solve other people's levels. *sighs* I surrender.

don't give up. This level must be hard because it really confuses me.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

And I can't solve other people's level (in a timely manner anyway) either, so don't feel bad about that. I solved Akseli's first level a year and six months after he released it.  :XD:
-------------
since Essman said he's working on Cheapo, I will wait and see if I can get at least Lemmings of Persia. I'm also interested in Minesweeper Lemmings.
Oh yeah---I really want to get a Mario level  :D
I'd like to remake Hotel in Hell but I have not solved this level. Nepster (or anyone) who's solved it could you test what I remake here? I realize the Lix version is significantly different from Cheapo. [I did not solve either] I think remaking the Cheapo version is more practical for SuperLemmini. I would guess that the solutions are different for each...
Oh yeah 1 more thing, I previously wanted to in include InsaneSteve's Tribute to Benny Hill but have not solved that one either so if someone can test what I make. In that case I'll remake the Lix version.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2015, 04:13:03 AM by möbius »
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline Nepster

  • Posts: 1829
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #153 on: January 17, 2015, 10:37:27 AM »
@Crane: It is a pity that you give up, because your levels feel like great ones. In case you really want to surrender: I can offer (to try) to patch the backroutes myself, assuming you give me your intended solution (perhaps by PM).

@mobius:
BlockAFloater:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Brokeback mountain: No, I did not try the original version. I already spend too much time time on levels with unknown backroutes - no need to spend time on levels with known ones ;P.
Hotel in Hell: I can try to solve your remake, but I never had Cheapo, so the intended solution is not known to me. The Lix version has multiple solutions, btw.
Tribute to Benny Hill: I am pretty sure about the intended solution (to the Lix version), so no problem in testing it. But remember, that the Lix version gives you 60 minutes, because the previously given 20 minutes were considered to be a too harsh time limit.

Offline Proxima

  • Posts: 4570
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #154 on: January 17, 2015, 12:21:43 PM »
The intended solutions to the Cheapo and Lix versions of The Hotel in Hell are the same, barring slight differences in the order of assigning tasks:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2754
  • relax.
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #155 on: January 18, 2015, 03:05:49 AM »
@Crane: It is a pity that you give up, because your levels feel like great ones. In case you really want to surrender: I can offer (to try) to patch the backroutes myself, assuming you give me your intended solution (perhaps by PM).

@mobius:
BlockAFloater:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Brokeback mountain: No, I did not try the original version. I already spend too much time time on levels with unknown backroutes - no need to spend time on levels with known ones ;P.
Hotel in Hell: I can try to solve your remake, but I never had Cheapo, so the intended solution is not known to me. The Lix version has multiple solutions, btw.
Tribute to Benny Hill: I am pretty sure about the intended solution (to the Lix version), so no problem in testing it. But remember, that the Lix version gives you 60 minutes, because the previously given 20 minutes were considered to be a too harsh time limit.

I just solved Benny Hill [actually think I solved it before but forgot  :XD: ] The Cheapo version gives 32 minutes but I had plenty of time to spare. According to geoo there are really quick ways to solve the lix version..
But now I'm a little concerned it's a little similar to Flotilla [given a choice I think I'd rather go with Benny Hill]  Partly because I was thinking of adding Singular Squish II from Clam

@Proxima; thanks for the solution. I'd rather not read it because I wanted to solve this level myself.
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2754
  • relax.
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #156 on: January 23, 2015, 10:31:12 PM »
@Crane: The most recent fixes created new solutions :evil:.
Jailbreak: Here is a completely new approach, solving the level in 4 minutes. Even if 8_1 is most likely not the intended solution, I like it quite much and would not mind if this solution is kept. As far as I remember, it is my first solution without using builders to create some kind of wall to turn lemmings around.
Solution 8_2 is much more usual and less elegant.
Btw. even with allowing for solutions like 8_1, this level is very hard and interesting.
Overflow: Two more solutions. One created by the last fix and one similar to 7_2 (but still having a basher spare).

because life is stupid and retarded when trying to watch your replays of Jailbreak the replay problem happened to me again even after doing the "correct" things.
I'm thinking we should go with this version of something close to it, but I'd like to see your replays first particularly this odd one. Do you have any ideas on how to prevent 8_2?
[I broke down and watched the solution on Crane's channel]
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline Nepster

  • Posts: 1829
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #157 on: January 24, 2015, 12:19:38 PM »
When trying to watch your replays of Jailbreak the replay problem happened to me again even after doing the "correct" things.
The replays work fine on my computer using v0.98a (downloaded on december 6). So apart from having missed an update of SuperLemmini myself, I have no idea what causes these new problems.

Jailbreak: I still do not know the intended solution of this level, so any suggestion to remove solution 8_2 might as well remove the intended solution. Attached are two modifications of Jailbreak, that (hopefully) allow for none of my backroutes, except for 8_1.
Modification 1: Even thicker walls for the jails. This definitely removes the vast majority of my backroutes and most of Crane's modification will no longer be necessary with this change. The problem (and likely the reason why Crane has not done this long ago) is, that there is essentially only one way to free the upmost lemmings now: To build up and bash through the wall. But restricting the players options in such a way gives him/her a rather big hint, and I am not sure we want to do this.
Modification 2: I prefer this version, because it still allows the player to free the upmost lemmings using three bombers. However I am far less sure, that the backroutes really do no longer work. So before putting this version into the level pack, at least someone else should have a look at it.

Warning: I have not tested any of the modified versions! In particular they might be unsolvalbe (though I think this unlikely) and they might contain very stupid new backroutes. Once it is decided what type of modifications are preferred, I will have another closer look at the respective version.

Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2754
  • relax.
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #158 on: January 24, 2015, 04:41:41 PM »
I will check out these levels later.

I've been running into a lot of stupid problems lately; one of them being I'm having trouble getting Hotel in Hell to work correctly and I don't know why yet. Here is a remake made in the Epic set [a combination of all sets in one]. What I should have done was simply add the 10-ton trap to fire set. But that would require remaking the level again from scratch. I don't feel like doing that now.
I have not tested this to work 100% yet, because I forget how to solve it--after looking at the solution. But you can try.
I had to use Lemmini because for some reason SuperLemmini crashed when the 10-ton trap animation tried to play. Otherwise it worked. Also I can't seem to install the epic set into the NeoLemmix editor and I have to ask namida how to do that I guess.

I'll get around to making this good eventually, I really want to include this level, it's a good one. I just haven't felt like doing much lately.

If I can get it working I want to include at least one Mario level. I'm still looking through cheapo stuff for the minesweeper and Persia levels.

[edit] I attached two version of Hotel in Hell because I'm not sure why there are 2 and if they are different in any way]
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline Crane

  • Posts: 1081
    • View Profile
Re: Community Request: Find Backroutes!
« Reply #159 on: February 10, 2015, 03:32:24 PM »
I'm still working on the Lemmini levels, or rather I've taken a break from them.  In the meantime, I've patched the backroutes that Nepster found in Precarious Construction (Part 2).  I really hope I wouldn't have to put in the one-way wall, as it takes away some of the level's aesthetic as well as telling you what not to do, but it's all I could find that prevented the backroutes he found, especially the second one (and it's possible to pull that solution off without a second blocker if you time the bomber very carefully).

The first "Precarious Construction" is meant to closely mirror part 2, but putting in the one-way wall for part 1 will break its solution... another reason why I didn't want to put in the one-way wall.  Who knows, I may find something else that works, but for now, here is the next version.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2015, 11:31:29 PM by Crane »