LPII Bonus Pack Level Voteoff Topic (WINNERS: "The Takeover" & "Bomber Frenzy")

[namida]

I'm sure you all know the drill by now, so I won't explain.

This'll be three rounds:

1st Round - One voteoff per rank, two votes per user for each rank. One winner from each (ties okay, but no consideration of 2nd place).
2nd Round - Voteoff between winners, number of votes will be either one or two depending on how many levels get in. Three winners (or two, if there's too many tied for 2nd/3rd).
3rd Round - Voteoff between winners, one vote. Winner wins overall.

Secret levels will be entered with the ranks they appear in.

Make sure you've played the latest versions of the levels (Levels V2). For Trial and Challenge there are no differences, but some of the levels in the last three ranks have been updated.

Winners - round 1
Trial 3 "Now Let's Try The Normal Way"
Challenge 2 "Law of the Jungle"
Challenge 3 "Another Way Down"
Reverse 6 "The Takeover"
Flight 7 "When You Wish Upon A Lemming"
Rush 4 "SUPERLEMMING II: Desert Quest"
Rush 6 "Bomber Frenzy"

Winners - round 2
Reverse 6 "The Takeover"
Rush 6 "Bomber Frenzy"

WINNERS
Tie - Reverse 6 "The Takeover" and Rush 6 "Bomber Frenzy"

[namida]

Winner for Trial is "Now Let's Try The Normal Way"! Next round is up. =)

[Wafflem]

For the Trial round, I voted for Trial 1 and Trial 2. (I don't talk about what I voted for until the round is done to avoid biases).

Trial 1 - Can't Stop the Lemmings - a truly challenging level with a great deal of precision. It's one of the hardest Trial levels (along with Trial 3).

Trial 2 - Back and Forwards We Go! - an excellent follow-up to Nice 7 "Together We Sand." The solution to this level is very creative and fun.

[namida]

Winners are "Law of the Jungle" and "Another Way Down", tied. =)
Next round is up.

[Wafflem]

I voted for Challenge 3 (glad it won!  ) and Challenge 7.

Challenge 3 "Another Way Down," as I stated, was unexpected for a repeat of a Floater Frenzy level. Its solution reminds me of Danger 16 "Grounded!" of LPDOS, another favorite level of mine.

Before I get arguments against me for Challenge 7 "Lemming Collider," I would have to agree that the level was way too easy with its simple solution. But what made me like the level more was making good use of the gimmick and finding slightly harder ways to solve the level (such as making a lemming dig down a platform, scouting ahead and blocking).

[namida]

As you can probably guess, the original intention there was a bit more complex. However, I myself was quite impressed when I realised it could be solved so simply, and decided to keep it as-is as one of those levels that tries to catch you out by making you think complex when the solution is simple.

Though I'm not sure why Challenge 3 was such a surprise; there's two gimmick-free repeats of gimmick levels too (although to be fair, one of those is Challenge 6), as well as another repeated Floater Frenzy that... plays exactly like a Floater Frenzy. Okay, I guess I see where you're coming from. =P



Anyway, winner for this round is "The Takeover". Though "Suicide Method 1" was VERY close behind. New round is up. This one was actually a bit hard for me to decide - between Flight 4, Flight 7 (those are the two I ended up voting for in the end) and Flight 6.

[Wafflem]

Well, when I was speculating on which levels you'd repeat in the bonus pack, I overlooked the Floater Frenzy levels and didn't think there was potential in having those repeated. Turns out I was wrong 

My votes went to Reverse 3 and Reverse 6.

Reverse 3 "The Lemming Layout" is one of the most fun levels I have ever played. You basically get multiple ways to kill the lemmings (bomber, high fall distance, trap).

Okay, I still haven't solved Reverse 6 "The Takeover." But I can tell that it's a very good level as the solution to having all the lemmings killed is extremely hard to find. It's a level that really puts your thinking to the test - you can't let the lemmings fall on the pit to the right, and you need to find a way around that exit. I've been trying to figure it out ever since you posted the preview image in your announcement.

I'm glad you made more levels using the Karoshi gimmick. If these types of levels were made with the traditional styles, specifically ones that cause gore (boulder of the dirt style, grinder of the brick style, and especially the stalactite of the snow style), it would be nasty, and it'd be very much like playing the real Karoshi game. And if they were made with the Hell style... 

Have you played Super Karoshi? The Karoshi characters behave very similarly to lemmings (except that they don't die from a high height, only through spikes), and you have to have them killed in a similar manner to your levels.

[namida]

Yeah, I've played it. It's pretty cool, though as far as the "special" Karoshi games go, I liked Karoshi Factory a lot more.
Though I don't plan to make any, feel free to have a go at creating some Karoshi levels in the traditional styles yourself. The Bonus Pack player supports the traditional styles as well as the LPII ones; just add 16 to the style number. To add the Karoshi gimmick, change the SuperLemming bytes to 0x4204 (or if you want it the mega-combo seen in Rush 6, 0x4209).

I'll leave this round up for a few hours more...

[namida]

Winner is "When You Wish Upon A Lemming". New round is up.

[Wafflem]

I'd love to create levels (either ordinary, gimmick or Frenzy) with both the traditional and your styles. I have some ideas in mind but haven't fully expanded on them yet.

For the Flight round, I voted for Flight 5 and Flight 7.

Flight 5, "Easy When You Know Me," is a very cool use of the no-gravity+hardworkers combo. Getting the lemmings to mine down and dig endlessly in addition to bashing and building adds something really new to the table. I like the title too - I can see how the solution to the level relates to one of the LPDOS levels. I was hoping that level would win along with Flight 7  .

If there is a solution with the left portion of the frame, that would be an achievement.

One interesting thing is that if your lemming keeps mining/digging and reach the bottomless pit, they can die, something that is not normally seen in regular no-gravity levels.

Flight 7, "When You Wish Upon a Lemming Star," is a nice break from the gimmick levels. This one is well made - crowd control, finding ways to get lemmings to climb up structures with a limited number of builders and destructive skills.

One observation I would like to make is that Flight 2 has the most number of lemmings (60), while the others are relatively few (5-20). I can see that a no-gravity level can be very difficult to create if you have a very high number of lemmings.

[namida]

Flight 1 (and Flight 2 too, for that matter) could pretty much have any amount of lemmings and still work. But yes, creating a no-gravity level with many lemmings is not an easy feat. Actually, the same is true for the no destruction gimmick too (especially because builders are equally affected by the gimmick) - indeed, apart from climbers and floaters which only affect one lemming regardless of gimmicks, the only skill that works as it normally does under that gimmick is the blocker. Also - it is possible for lemmings to die from the pit in a no-gravity level; you just have to specifically try to acheive it. Dig to the bottom, then dig a couple more times, and the lemming will die.

[namida]

For this one, we have a tie between Rush 4 and Rush 6!
I'll put the next round up now.

[Wafflem]

I voted for Rush 1 and Rush 6.

Okay, so not all of us like the "We All Fall Down" levels of Lemmings. I'm not really a fan of them myself. But "Flashback Frenzy" is a great idea for a Frenzy level, and it really puts a new twist on those levels in that you can't pause. The title is also very clever. However, I didn't have to use all 80 diggers - some Lemmings can fall down while one is digging.

You've really done an excellent job concluding this bonus pack with "Bomber Frenzy." You were able to make this level feel like a final level - ending this pack not by saving lemmings, but by bombing them! For that same reason, you've also put a new twist on the Karoshi levels that you normally use in the Reverse levels and Nice 9. I'm kind of unsure about the other gimmick you used though. Was it used to fool people?

The Rush levels overall are fun and very different from the other levels - a Superlemming sequel, remakes of previous levels that work for Frenzy levels, an athlete version, and a challenging version of Nice 15. It's good that you changed the release rate in Rush 5 though - I'd say that level's the hardest Rush level along with Rush 4.

When you said one of the Rush levels was based on one of the Danger levels of LPDOS, I thought you'd use Danger 27 as a Rush level...

[namida]

Whoa, dude, I'm not THAT evil... =P
Also, what do you mean about the "other gimmick"? Do you mean the no destruction in Bomber Frenzy? That's because otherwise, you end up bombing away the terrain and lemmings just fall to the bottom of the level, which doesn't count for the Karoshi gimmick.

The ability to have some lemmings walk off other lemmings digs is completely intentional; just like how it's possible to do that in the originals. Without pausing, this can still cause trouble.

[Wafflem]

Yep, that's what I meant regarding the other gimmick in "Bomber Frenzy". The "fool people" part was because the level looks misleading at first - how can you complete the Frenzy when you're going to bomb the floors? That's what I was kind of thinking until I started bombing the lemmings and the floor wasn't destroyed thanks to the no-destruction gimmick. Though steel would have also worked aside from the no-destruction gimmick.

Can't wait to see which level ultimately wins!