Lix Community Level Set

[Proxima]

Okay, I'll move the Hotel in Hell hatch even further to the right.

[namida]

Wow, they look great! =) Thanks!

[Nepster]

@Proxima: There are still at least two solutions... (but no bridge walls any more)

@Simon and off-topic (sorry): Even if it spoils the level, you might want to have a look at my solution to We are in this one together (attached in my previous post), as there is something weird going on when I bomb one climber slightly below another: The remaining climber reverts to a walker, hits its head, turns around and falls down - without moving into the bomber hole. As a side remark: Even before that happens, the lixes seem to move over a 1-pixel gap at the end of one stair.

[Proxima]

Excellent solutions, I'm fine with leaving those.

[Nepster]

Here are the remakes of Heed the Traffic Light aka Time Gate and of Bashing & Building along with replays of the intended solutions. It seems likely that there are still backroutes in Traffic Light and if anyone has a better name for Bashing&Building, I am happy to change it.

As mentioned before, if you don't like the levels, just scrap them. And if you want other levels instead, tell me.

[geoo]

I'm in a bit of a rush, might post more later tonight.

New update, here are the changes:

bibbidi-bobbidi-boo.txt - removed trap and changed requirement to 4/5 (as suggested by Proxima).
derailedlevel.txt - radical backroute fix: I took out two climbers and added a box, even though 1 of the measures might have been sufficient
dilemma.txt - backroute fix: straightened terrain
goblincity.txt & gomenne.txt: turned red pipe pink (Proxima suggested changing the colour from red [I assume due to confusion with laser], tell me if I should pick a different colour than pink)
hardtoport.txt - changed according to Nepster's suggestion
ittakestime.txt - based on mobius' new version, I made the timing a little tighter, increase the requirement and cut half of the diggers/bashers. I could cut two more of each while still allowing mobius' solution to work. Timing not tight at all still.
riddlemethis.txt - changed min RR to 1. Still inclined to scrap the level.
stuffintheway.txt - removed unofficial terrain pieces. I was dumb and used some terrain that was only in a folder I have that was used for testing.
thehotelinhell.txt - Proxima's latest version

No fix to No More Heroes yet, this one's tricky. The other ones I didn't post an update to are intended.

As a side remark: Even before that happens, the lixes seem to move over a 1-pixel gap at the end of one stair.

This is as horizontally Lix works sort of in low-res. A 2x1 cell is considered solid if one of the pixels in it are solid. That's also why sometimes a climber can climb a 1 pixel overhang, but sometimes not. I could move the ice piece one pixel to the right so this can't happen.

Yeah, Dunes is great, but a bit similar to some other levels in the pack. I like the choice of levels you're going to remake, I'll try my hand at #10 at some point.
Still haven't solved Time Gate, I'm kinda stumped, especially as I don't see how I can adapt my save 8 solution to work.

[Nepster]

First the good news: Found solutions to Dilemma and Stuff in the Way that feel intended (though in Stuff there are some bricks missing at the very right end of the level).

Now for the bad news:
It takes time...: Including a walker was a bad idea and one can still solve the level saving 80/80 without using the walker (though given the digger trickery involved this might be less of a problem).
Derailed Level: First I found a solution that saves 27 and can be adapted to save 28 if one is given a second walker or if one little box is added on top of the newly included one. The next totally different solution (which was a bit of a let-down) saves the required 28, but depends much on the precise digger and basher mechanics and works as well for Off the Rails...

@geoo: Thanks for explaining the behaviour at 1 pixel gaps.

[geoo]

I'll make some changes to the post linked here to keep it up with recent progress to some extent: http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=593.msg20328#msg20328
New update to the levels, see below.

@Simon and off-topic (sorry): Even if it spoils the level, you might want to have a look at my solution to We are in this one together (attached in my previous post), as there is something weird going on when I bomb one climber slightly below another: The remaining climber reverts to a walker, hits its head, turns around and falls down - without moving into the bomber hole.

That's definitely unintended behaviour. You can file bug reports for Lix on the site http://asdfasdf.ethz.ch/~simon/bb/forum.php?board=1 once it's back online (server's been down since this morning).

Lastly: What is the latest version of this infamous level Brickout?

That's a somewhat difficult question, as there are different branches of backroute fixes.
The latest version of the B branch (and the latest overall version by ccx) is B8-c. At stage B7.1 ccx said my solution is kinda acceptable, but not exactly as intended, and then the aforementioned comment about B8-b. There was a C branch that I think ended in C2, but it had bigger issues, so ccx withdrew it. The A branch had interesting solutions that were not the intended one. Then there's E1, a modification by Proxima.

First the good news: Found solutions to Dilemma and Stuff in the Way that feel intended (though in Stuff there are some bricks missing at the very right end of the level).

Now for the bad news:
It takes time...: Including a walker was a bad idea and one can still solve the level saving 80/80 without using the walker (though given the digger trickery involved this might be less of a problem).
Derailed Level: First I found a solution that saves 27 and can be adapted to save 28 if one is given a second walker or if one little box is added on top of the newly included one. The next totally different solution (which was a bit of a let-down) saves the required 28, but depends much on the precise digger and basher mechanics and works as well for Off the Rails...

Dilemma and Stuff are intended. I cropped Stuff at the right to remove the black space. I think its difficulty is a bit overrated, it used to be amongst the hardest levels back in the day, but now it doesn't seem as hard anymore.

New version is up,
List of Changes:

It takes time: Reverted back to builder. Cutting the skill set to 3 builders/diggers each seems like a good idea now, as I know of at least one static solution building from the left that could be eliminated like that.
Derailed level: Wow, that's a pretty technical solution. I turned a crate into steel to eliminate that one. Considering how many pretty nifty solutions you've found so far, I think you'll be disappointed by the intended solution and its simplicity...
Off the rails: same modification as above
No more heroes: I decreased the width of the starting platform and checked that the level is still solvable with what I believe is the intended solution.
Stuff in the way: Cropped at the left
Tribute to Benny Hill: Time limit increased to 60 minutes
Have another Try: prettified.


List of levels that I or Nepster feel could be improved aesthetically (IMO especially the first four need it). Feel free to try your hand at these, anyone.

the giant mushroom
all over the place
heavenly skies
escape the pit: Though now that I know it's a remake from Lemmings Revolution of sorts, I wouldn't mind scrapping it either.
Babylon Fading
It's a long way up
Digging the Air (layout is good, but it doesn't fill one screen)
To Destroy is to Construct
Division of Labor
Roundabout
Solar Eclipse: I wonder, should I maybe turn all the terrain that you're not supposed to destroy into steel, basically making a steel pyramid? I somehow feel that it'd look less confusing then.

[geoo]

Finally, solved Absolute Zero and Traffic Light/Time Gate.

[Nepster]

@geoo: The solution to Traffic Light/Time Gate is precisely as intended. I have a new solution to the Derailed Level and finally understand how it got its relatively early placement.

Edit: Just read your comment on Bibbidi again: I found it easier to stop the basher with a bomber hole, making the level pretty easy in its execution.

[ccexplore]

Okay, a quick IRC chat has finally spurred me to do something about my levels after a 2-year hiatus.

Presenting Brickout version B9, and Won't Get Fooled Again version 5.

Brickout B9:  A funny thing happened; now that I review the level almost afresh due to the 2-year gap, I no longer favor one of the tricks used, since it can potentially be rather fiddly to execute, in that with bad timing, I could see it easily mislead a player into thinking the trick simply doesn't work ever.  So for inclusion into community set, I'm likely going to have to come up with a slightly simpler version that does not use that bothersome trick (but will keep the rest).

But for now, this is (hopefully) the version that captures the solution I intended, for better or for worse.  And yes, the change is somewhat drastic and likely revealing (at least it very clearly eliminates some routes), but also keep in mind that this fix wouldn't even have worked out the way I wanted with the game mechanics from 2 years ago.  The multitude of backroutes before it is clear evidence that I cannot get away with less drastic fixes--like Simon said, there are just too many skills used, so some hard constraints must be introduced to enforce the intended solution.

I haven't tried to figure out Proxima's solution but I suspect it's going in a different direction than mine, and if so probably won't work in this version.  That being said, just like some of geoo's solutions I may be opened to them.

[Disclaimer:  the current version of Lix completely broke my old replays early on (probably due to some timing differences), so technically I haven't confirmed my solution is fully working in current version of Lix, but I did verify that the individual elements are behaving as desired so my original solution should still work.  I'll work out a proper replay over the weekend.]
 
Won't Get Fooled Again v5:  I actually still like one of geoo's two solutions.  The other one, not so much. I sawbladed away that solution.

While I'm not too bothered by the other geoo solution, I still think it's good to gauge the opinion of the level by the solution I envisioned, and then if it's not all that great we can go back to the version that accepts the geoo solution.  Hence the other change I made.  Actually I have a funny feeling that I might have tried this change already so there's a possibility I may have simply revived some older alternate solution instead.  I guess I'll find out soon enough if that's the case.

It should be noted that on this level, I purposely am a little more generous than strictly necessary with the given skills and save requirement--the level is definitely not meant to be at Brickout-level trickiness.

[edit: whoops, now I remember why I can't just make that change.  Since no one has downloaded it I'll just withdraw it and make the next one the real v5.]

[edit2: my intended Brickout B9 solution confirmed for real.  Damn, there is also a part that is fairly pixel-precise even though I'd rather it not be.  Although I think I was forced to set things up like that to prevent some backroute.   Clearly some work is in order to make this level community-friendly.]

[ccexplore]

And here's the proper version 5 of Won't Get Fooled Again.  Although I don't think anyone downloaded the earlier bad one, all the same I've made this one version 5b.  Comments copy-pasted below.

Won't Get Fooled Again v5b:  I actually still like one of geoo's two solutions.  The other one, not so much. I sawbladed away that solution.

While I'm not too bothered by the other geoo solution, I still think it's good to gauge the opinion of the level by the solution I envisioned, and then if it's not all that great we can go back to the version that accepts the geoo solution.  Hence the other change I made.  Actually I have a funny feeling that I might have tried this change already so there's a possibility I may have simply revived some older alternate solution instead.  I guess I'll find out soon enough if that's the case.

It should be noted that on this level, I purposely am a little more generous than strictly necessary with the given skills and save requirement--the level is definitely not meant to be at Brickout-level trickiness.

[edit: v5 rescinded, there are backroutes that are a step backwards from where things are in v4.  v6 pending...]

[Nepster]

Actually I have a funny feeling that I might have tried this change already so there's a possibility I may have simply revived some older alternate solution instead.  I guess I'll find out soon enough if that's the case.

Though I don't know yet the intended solution, I think this was somewhat prophetic...

[ccexplore]

Thanks, that definitely helped refresh my memory on backroutes.

I know one way to address this, but it may end up making the level no longer quite fit on one screen anymore.  While it's not the end of the world, I'm going to take my time and see if I can do the fix while still keeping everything on one screen.  Also like to avoid a situation where the backroute stops working by merely 1-2 pixels.

In the meantime, I've rescinded v5 as it's clearly a step backwards.

[geoo]

I solved Brickout B9, and it does have a move that your description sort of applies to. If that's the move, then I'm skeptical whether that's suitable for the community pack as well as it is.